A vote against the Lisbon Treaty is a vote against a United Ireland

MrMicra

Title_7_Solidarity_Clause_Article_188R wrote:

The Union and its Member States shall act jointly in a spirit of solidarity if a Member State is the object of a terrorist attack or the victim of a natural or man-made disaster. The Union shall mobilise all the instruments at its disposal, including the military resources made available by the Member States,
to:
(a) — prevent the terrorist threat in the territory of the Member States;
— protect democratic institutions and the civilian population from any terrorist attack;
— assist a Member State in its territory, at the request of its political authorities, in the event of a terrorist attack

One of the core reasons given that an United Ireland is impossible is the inability of the republic of Ireland effectively to control the risk of terrorist attacks by loyalist paramilitarys.
Whether or not this lack of ability is in fact true doesn't the clause above blow it out of the water.

Lisbon will allow Ireland to call on the French, Germans and Poles, for example, to assist in controlling post unification civil disturbance. It will make it possible for other member states to assist us if we need assistance.

The potential benefit for this country is far greater than the potential risk.

A vote against the Treaty is a vote for partition.
A vote against Lisbon is treasonous.

PopeBuckfastXVI

I don't know about that.

We make a whoppingly big deal about not wanting to help anyone else out, even to the point of getting special guarantees that we won't be disturbed by calls for military help, I don't see why we would expect any help in return.

ChocolateSauce

Ah well...

Keewee6

dont necessary believe that now

MrMicra

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

I don't know about that.

We make a whoppingly big deal about not wanting to help anyone else out, even to the point of getting special guarantees that we won't be disturbed by calls for military help, I don't see why we would expect any help in return.

That's a fair point Pope Buckfast. But we are after all the only ones who've asked for those guarantees.
In fact isn't it clear that we should participate in EU missions as we are teh only EU member state that is effectively guaranteed to need assistance in the next 20 years.

PopeBuckfastXVI

MrMicra wrote: »

That's a fair point Pope Buckfast. But we are after all the only ones who've asked for those guarantees.
In fact isn't it clear that we should participate in EU missions as we are teh only EU member state that is effectively guaranteed to need assistance in the next 20 years.

Our stance of Neutrality is an entirely different discussion to any on the Lisbon treaty though

granite man

I for one do not want foreign troops on Irish soil. I grew up with that up north and let me tell you, its not pleasant. And if my memory serves me correctly, they were very free and easy rounding people up, innocent or not(everyone is a 'potential' terrorist to them). Yet another reason to vote no.

granite man

A vote against the Treaty is a vote for partition.
A vote against Lisbon is treasonous.[/quote]

Please enlighten me, how on earth do you come to these conclusions?

ro09

Drastic more Scare tactics from the yes side. How much are the government paying thes guys???????????

Never mind a united ireland pal, we wont even have an Ireland anymore if we keep signing EU treaties into law.

All EU law supersedes our constitutional law so every time we sign a EU treaty we loose some Power over our own Law making.

Jackovarian

?

So we need to vote Yes on Lisbon to protect ourselves from loyalist paramilitaries?

Without Lisbon, we can never have a united Ireland?

I read that right?

So, let me get this straight, we need to become part of a superstate (dont give me that "we're not becoming a superstate" garbage, we are, open your eyes.) to ask other countries to defend us from a few scumbags up the north?

Cop on!

Throw away your countries nationality for that?

Who is this United Ireland for anyway? What are you going to do with the people up there who don't want a United Ireland? Those people who would revolt and cause a lot more trouble than anything that's been seen up there in the last while.

It would be great if Ireland became a United country, but don't go kidding yourself that "Europe" would step in and help us over domestic issues like that. The only thing they'd do is set up permanent military residence over here and run us like a prison camp.

What is with this attitude that Europe is the best thing since sliced bread?

Just look at our farming and fishing industry! That's enough to tell you something stinks! (and not just the fish!)

OH yeah, as for Brian Cowan going and getting these guarantees, nothing has changed in the treaty. Do you realise that?

We're voting on the same thing, anything thats said otherwise is to distract you from the fact that we're voting twice!!!!!!!!!

It seems to be working nicely little sheepies.

Furious-Dave

ro09 wrote: »

All EU law supersedes our constitutional law so every time we sign a EU treaty we loose some Power over our own Law making.

Umm, No! If anything constitutional law is protected by EU law.

Jackovarian

Oh and OP,

I would love to start a petition to get small minded people like you banned from this site.

Having an opinion is one thing, forcing your unfounded propaganda on people is another.

Jackovarian

Furious Dave,

I believe our constitutional law means SFA to Europe, we are voting again.

Is that not contrary to "Constitutional Law"?

Furious-Dave

Jackovarian wrote: »

Furious Dave,

I believe our constitutional law means SFA to Europe, we are voting again.

Is that not contrary to "Constitutional Law"?

I believe that people on here have pointed out in other threads that the answer to that is no.
The EU is made up of 27 members states, each with their own constitutional laws. If the greater whole gave "SFA" about our constitutional law, then it would do the same for that of all member states and it would all fall apart, considering that the "whole" is made up of those member states.

Jackovarian

Because they somehow changed the Treaty?

I seem to remember another Treaty that we had to vote on twice... or am I wrong?

So, if we vote NO again this time, does that mean we will have to vote again? Or will our government find some way to change the Constitution and push it through like every other spineless state on the continent?

The only reason they care about us at the moment is because we are holding up the show!

Surely you've heard people saying if we vote no we're voting against Europe, because they wont like us anymore! Thats a Yes side arguement!


And, they wouldn't be making us vote again if they respected our laws.

Furious-Dave

Jackovarian wrote: »

Because they somehow changed the Treaty?

I seem to remember another Treaty that we had to vote on twice... or am I wrong?

So, if we vote NO again this time, does that mean we will have to vote again? Or will our government find some way to change the Constitution and push it through like every other spineless state on the continent?

Just because things are discussed on this site, doesn't make the outcomes or answers truth.

So don't go reference threads like an encyclopedia please.

It is not unconstitutional to hold repeated referenda on the same issue. People complain it is because they are lazy. The Government cannot "push it though", that would be unconstitutional. If they wanted to do that we wouldn't have had the first referendum. If there is another No vote the EU itself will have no choice but to scrap the whole thing. And the several years of negotiation will start all over.
The other member states didn't have a referendum because they were not required to by their respective constitutions. And I strongly believe that the people, in any country, should not be allowed anywhere near the decision of whether a treaty is ratified or not. Look at all the nonsense it caused here.

You should look up the definition of representative democracy. It's the only version of democracy that actually works.

K-9

Jackovarian wrote: »

?

So we need to vote Yes on Lisbon to protect ourselves from loyalist paramilitaries?

Without Lisbon, we can never have a united Ireland?

I read that right?

So, let me get this straight, we need to become part of a superstate (dont give me that "we're not becoming a superstate" garbage, we are, open your eyes.) to ask other countries to defend us from a few scumbags up the north?

Cop on!

Throw away your countries nationality for that?

Who is this United Ireland for anyway? What are you going to do with the people up there who don't want a United Ireland? Those people who would revolt and cause a lot more trouble than anything that's been seen up there in the last while.

It would be great if Ireland became a United country, but don't go kidding yourself that "Europe" would step in and help us over domestic issues like that. The only thing they'd do is set up permanent military residence over here and run us like a prison camp.

What is with this attitude that Europe is the best thing since sliced bread?

Just look at our farming and fishing industry! That's enough to tell you something stinks! (and not just the fish!)

OH yeah, as for Brian Cowan going and getting these guarantees, nothing has changed in the treaty. Do you realise that?

We're voting on the same thing, anything thats said otherwise is to distract you from the fact that we're voting twice!!!!!!!!!

It seems to be working nicely little sheepies.

Jackovarian wrote: »

Oh and OP,

I would love to start a petition to get small minded people like you banned from this site.

Having an opinion is one thing, forcing your unfounded propaganda on people is another.

Ah well, at least the OP shows there are CT'ers on the Yes side.

Signed,
Sheepie.

Jackovarian

I understand what happened! Do you think if Europeans had had a vote that we'd even be discussing this right now?

Obviously the Government cant push it through! They would have done that already! That was a little joke that was lost on you obviously.

As for not unconstitutional, I thought that was only under the terms that changes must occur to the subject?
Besides that point, the Irish Government didn't listen to the electorate. People voted no, no matter what Europe wants, the Government should have called it quits and stuck with the decision.
They aren't acting like elected representatives. They are representing themselves, and the minority of voters it would seem.

I suppose thats all ill informed also?

Furious-Dave

K-9 wrote: »

Ah well, at least the OP shows there are nuts on the Yes side.

Signed,
Sheepie.

LOL Agreed. If there's anything that we, on this forum, have learned it's that we should take everything that comes out of the campaigners for both sides with a pinch of salt, if not just outright ignore it and find out for ourselves.

Jackovarian

So you (Dave) would like to give the Government complete and total power over things like this?

I'm happy for you, if you trust their judgment.

Especially after our Taoiseach turned around during the last Lisbon campaign and said he hadn't read the Treaty.

Those are the morons you'd give total control to?

CCCP^

Jesus, talk about bend it like Beckham..

Jackovarian

BTW, I haven't been spouting any NO side non-sense, all I've been giving is my opinion.

The OP's post got my goat up, and I apologise for the stupid rant!

I couldn't care who votes which way, Its just annoying that there is so much tripe out there.



Sorry for being annoying! Ranting over!

Dinner

Jackovarian wrote: »

Especially after our Taoiseach turned around during the last Lisbon campaign and said he hadn't read the Treaty.

Does that mean he doesn't know what's in it?

Furious-Dave

Jackovarian wrote: »

I understand what happened! Do you think if Europeans had had a vote that we'd even be discussing this right now?

Obviously the Government cant push it through! They would have done that already! That was a little joke that was lost on you obviously.

As for not unconstitutional, I thought that was only under the terms that changes must occur to the subject?
Besides that point, the Irish Government didn't listen to the electorate. People voted no, no matter what Europe wants, the Government should have called it quits and stuck with the decision.
They aren't acting like elected representatives. They are representing themselves, and the minority of voters it would seem.

I suppose thats all ill informed also?

I wouldn't really call it a joke, more an attempt at being witty.
There are others on here that can respond to the unconstitutional bit a lot better than I can.
It was only something like 28% of the total population that voted no. I have no problem with a fully informed No vote. The problem with the first referendum was that people voted on so many lies and lack of information, from both sides, and the whole thing was a mess. A lot (and I'm not saying all) of No voters seem to want to cling to that result regardless of the means that got it.

Furious-Dave

Jackovarian wrote: »

So you (Dave) would like to give the Government complete and total power over things like this?

I'm happy for you, if you trust their judgment.

Especially after our Taoiseach turned around during the last Lisbon campaign and said he hadn't read the Treaty.

Those are the morons you'd give total control to?

Oh definitely not the current government. But there is far too much paranoia and conspiracy theories going around to trust the electorate either. Which is extremely unfortunate for the properly informed and level headed people.

Furious-Dave

I feel I should point out that I am actually a 'totalitarian-democrat' and that I am also not fully Irish. I currently hold a passport for 2 EU countries.

Jackovarian

I agree with you there.


And, no, he may have understood its contents, but he still shouldn't have said he never read it!

Level headed people... I apologised for my rant

sdanseo

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Umm, No! If anything constitutional law is protected by EU law.

The fact that constitutional law supercedes EU law is the only reason we're having this stupid vote (again) in the first second place.

Jackovarian

By the way,

This is the first time I've heard the United Ireland argument being used by either sides.
Its just ridiculous!

Furious-Dave

sdonn wrote: »

The fact that constitutional law supercedes EU law is the only reason we're having this stupid vote (again) in the first second place.

Well we are having it again because the Government made a balls with the first one. Though I don't really have much faith that they will do a better job this time. I just hope people have had the initiative to inform themselves a little better.

Furious-Dave

Jackovarian wrote: »

By the way,

This is the first time I've heard the United Ireland argument being used by either sides.
Its just ridiculous!

Now that I agree with. If there is any status quo that needs to be maintained it's the one in NI.

RoyalMarine

im voting yes because i feel it will benefit humanity in the long run.
i dont agree with "its for a united ireland" or "giving up your nationality" etc bull****.

sorry but everyone is equal. nationality shouldn't exist anymore. were smart enough to realise were human, not irish or american or german etc. tear down boarder's and nationalities. united europe is a step in the right direction to a united earth.

i also think people who are trying to convince people to vote no because we already had a vote and the people have spoken etc should shut the **** up and learn something.

these sign's around the countryside saying "they died for your freedom dont throw it away etc bull is just the most pathetic thing ive seen in years.

Jackovarian

Well the current Yes campaign seems to revolve around smiley happy models (male and female) with slogans beside them. So... no, they're playing into the comfort area again. "Look at those pictures, they're smiling, this must be a good thing."

Its like that stupid advert they show in cinemas now: "So whats this European Union thingy doing for me?"

I can honestly never say I've heard any person refer to the E.U. as a thingy. Its playing down the importance of the E.U. Why?

RoyalMarine

Jackovarian wrote: »

Well the current Yes campaign seems to revolve around smiley happy models (male and female) with slogans beside them. So... no, they're playing into the comfort area again. "Look at those pictures, they're smiling, this must be a good thing."

Its like that stupid advert they show in cinemas now: "So whats this European Union thingy doing for me?"

I can honestly never say I've heard any person refer to the E.U. as a thingy. Its playing down the importance of the E.U. Why?

the campaigning is a complete joke from both sides. completly agree with you on the campaign.

Jackovarian

I'm sure some aspects would be fine. But humans by nature are different. Even if we were under some global umbrella we would eventually fracture again. It would all just reboot itself.

Its easy to turn around and say people are equal. But a lot of people don't see things that way I'm afraid.

Torakx

MrMicra wrote: »

One of the core reasons given that an United Ireland is impossible is the inability of the republic of Ireland effectively to control the risk of terrorist attacks by loyalist paramilitarys.
Whether or not this lack of ability is in fact true doesn't the clause above blow it out of the water.

Lisbon will allow Ireland to call on the French, Germans and Poles, for example, to assist in controlling post unification civil disturbance. It will make it possible for other member states to assist us if we need assistance.

The potential benefit for this country is far greater than the potential risk.

A vote against the Treaty is a vote for partition.
A vote against Lisbon is treasonous.

can we put this in conspiracy theories please so i can also comment on it?

Furious-Dave

RoyalMarineComm wrote: »

im voting yes because i feel it will benefit humanity in the long run.
i dont agree with "its for a united ireland" or "giving up your nationality" etc bull****.

Well perhaps European humanity (the only kind that really matters :pac:)
I've had the opinion for a long time that the concept of United Ireland is irrelevant when we have the concept of United Europe.

RoyalMarineComm wrote: »

sorry but everyone is equal

Some are more equal than others though

RoyalMarineComm wrote: »

not irish or american or german

Well definitely not American :pac:

RoyalMarine

Jackovarian wrote: »

I'm sure some aspects would be fine. But humans by nature are different. Even if we were under some global umbrella we would eventually fracture again. It would all just reboot itself.

Its easy to turn around and say people are equal. But a lot of people don't see things that way I'm afraid.

and the sad thing is these are the people who are going to vote no.
these are the people who hold humanity back.
these are the people who cause problem after problem in the world with racism and religious hate.

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Well perhaps European humanity (the only kind that really matters :pac:)
I've had the opinion for a long time that the concept of United Ireland is irrelevant when we have the concept of United Europe.


Well definitely not American :pac:

ah now. everyone is equal regardless.

K-9

Jackovarian wrote: »

I agree with you there.


And, no, he may have understood its contents, but he still shouldn't have said he never read it!

YEP, Far better if he had lied!

Jackovarian

Well all other leaders do it, why not our fella?

granite man

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Now that I agree with. If there is any status quo that needs to be maintained it's the one in NI.

twat

hatrickpatrick

A vote for the Lisbon treaty is indeed a step towards a United Ireland.

Unfortunately, it's a step towards a republic united not only with Northern Ireland, but with every other state in the EU. If we have to accept the United States of Europe in order to have a United State of Ireland, I would rather stick with the Irish government having sovereignty over 26 counties to be honest. It's better than having sovereignty over none of them.

Furious-Dave

granite man wrote: »

twat

I would never presume to understand fully the situation there, nor am I saying the situation there now is ideal, but from where I am, the current situation seems to be the best NI has had in a long time.

United Ireland is only but a dream, that if sought after will lead to more violence.

This is completely off topic anyway.

biko

MrMicra wrote: »

A vote against Lisbon is treasonous.

FFS, you saying that a majority of Irish voters committed treason last referendum? And may again? That there is civil war talk buddy.

hatrickpatrick

RoyalMarineComm wrote: »

im voting yes because i feel it will benefit humanity in the long run.
i dont agree with "its for a united ireland" or "giving up your nationality" etc bull****.

sorry but everyone is equal. nationality shouldn't exist anymore. were smart enough to realise were human, not irish or american or german etc. tear down boarder's and nationalities. united europe is a step in the right direction to a united earth.

i also think people who are trying to convince people to vote no because we already had a vote and the people have spoken etc should shut the **** up and learn something.

these sign's around the countryside saying "they died for your freedom dont throw it away etc bull is just the most pathetic thing ive seen in years.

And this is exactly why I'm voting no. No one who supports voting yes is arguing that it isn't going to diminish our sovereignty, they're arguing that our sovereignty isn't all that important.

And I believe that Irish citizens alone should make the laws which Irish citizens follow.

K-9

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And this is exactly why I'm voting no. No one who supports voting yes is arguing that it isn't going to diminish our sovereignty, they're arguing that our sovereignty isn't all that important.

And I believe that Irish citizens alone should make the laws which Irish citizens follow.

At least you don't hide the fact that you don't want us in the EU.

meglome

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And this is exactly why I'm voting no. No one who supports voting yes is arguing that it isn't going to diminish our sovereignty, they're arguing that our sovereignty isn't all that important.

And I believe that Irish citizens alone should make the laws which Irish citizens follow.

Some of you No voters are funny. We've just run the country into the ground and we keep hearing all this bull about sovereignty. I wouldn't trust our government to run the local sweety shop.

P. Breathnach

meglome wrote: »

... I wouldn't trust our government to run the local sweety shop.

Remember who put them there: the Irish electorate.

Buffy the bitch

But why should we allow the EU to make laws in our country? If I'm mistaken 85% - 90% of British are made by the EU.

I for one don't want my email accounts on records and been checked.

K-9

Buffy the bitch wrote: »

But why should we allow the EU to make laws in our country? If I'm mistaken 85% - 90% of British are made by the EU.

I for one don't want my email accounts on records and been checked.

It's about 30/40% here, but some claim 80%.

Joe O'Reilly would agree with you on email and phone records.

bustertherat

meglome wrote: »

Some of you No voters are funny. We've just run the country into the ground and we keep hearing all this bull about sovereignty. I wouldn't trust our government to run the local sweety shop.

you wouldn't trust them to run the sweety shop yet you're still following their orders to vote yes. somewhat hypocritical, no?