Terry's Lisbon Thread in AH

My name is URL

Is there any particular reason for it to be there? It's a political issue and should be in that forum

I'm not gonna say whether I'm for or against Lisbon here because it's a moot point in as far as this thread is concerned. Just like how Terry's thread is a moot point in the forum he placed it in.. and to sticky & close it...wtf!

I put this here instead of Help Desk because I'm not looking for help, it's Feedback.

I don't see how or why the thread needs to be a sticky in AH.

Of course mods are entitled to have an opinion on this, and they should voice their opinions, but doing like that is just unnecessary. He should have at least left it open so that others could voice their opinions too.

I'm not one of the conspiracy people that thinks that Boards is pro-Lisbon but c'mon, do you think the thread needs to be there..?

aidan_walsh

He is asking people to take the time to familiarise themselves with what it is and to vote according to what they think of it.

Perhaps he doesn't need to state that he is voting yes, but at least he admonishes people appropriately if they are going to let their vote be influenced by him.

Beruthiel

He's posted a thread telling people to read up on it.
I see no problem with that.
Everyone should read up on it.

What's your gripe with that?

My name is URL

Regardless of his own stance on the subject, it's still a politically focused issue and there's a forum for that.

Some/Most/All of the people that thanked the post are pro-Lisbon. If it was worded differently the anti-Lisbon crowd would be thanking it, and it would still be in the wrong forum.

My gripe is with it being stickied while other threads are moved to appropriate forums.

And it's bloody condescending to assume that people won't read up on it tbh, sure those people will be the only ones that vote no !

Jumpy

Hes doing it so people dont start retarded Lisbon II threads in AH.

Do you really give a shite?

The Recliner

My name is URL wrote: »

And it's bloody condescending to assume that people won't read up on it tbh, sure those people will be the only ones that vote no !

About as condescending as you assuming that everyone who hasn't read it will vote no

I haven't read it (yet) and I wouldn't be for voting against it

My name is URL

The Recliner wrote: »

About as condescending as you assuming that everyone who hasn't read it will vote no

I haven't read it (yet) and I wouldn't be for voting against it

I was being sarcastic. I'm sure people that know it inside out will be voting no too

Jumpy

My name is URL wrote: »

I was being sarcastic. I'm sure people that know it inside out will be voting no too

Christ.
Im undecided, but why are all the hardcore Lisbon Loonies™ on the No side? You are starting to make my decision for me.

dr.bollocko

It was a response to the fact that we had to lock the lisbon treaty thread in AH. We decided it best to do so because the european union forum has the moderators capable to handle such discussion without letting misinformation getting through. We got a bit of negative feedback for closing the thread so this seems an appropriate response IMO. So it isn't out of the blue as it were "Terry says what he thinks about lisbon" but a response to those users put out by the closure of the lisbon treaty thread.

ShooterSF

I do think generally when stickying and locking a thread as to advise people on the rules of the forum (i.e no Lisbon discussion in AH) a mod is better off posting the rules (Moderator hat) rather alone without adding their opinion on the subject (User hat).

Also can someone explain is politics out of bounds for AH now or just this one aspect? And if it is just Lisbon why offer it such special circumstances?

Beruthiel

My name is URL wrote: »

Some/Most/All of the people that thanked the post are pro-Lisbon.

How would anyone know that?
More to the point, what difference does it make?

If it was worded differently the anti-Lisbon crowd would be thanking it

I wouldn't know, I have not been following posters enough to know which way they will vote.
I expect that would be the same for 99% of users on this site.

skelliser

there is no reason whatsoever for that mod to state which way he is voting. it should be edited to reflect so

The yes side may not appeal to you, so this is why I urge you to read up on it before voting.

that imo is a loaded statement.

dr.bollocko

skelliser wrote: »

there is no reason whatsoever for that mod to state which way he is voting. it should be edited to reflect so

Did you read the post?

Before you ask, I'll be voting yes.
Do not read that as an endorsement for the yes side. Read it as me making an informed decision. After Hours and boards.ie do not endorse any political parties or any side in a referendum. I'm just pointing out my own personal preference in this thread as an AH user and then abusing my mod powers by locking and stickying this thread.
The yes side may not appeal to you, so this is why I urge you to read up on it before voting.
Do not be a lemming. Make your own decision.

Remember, it's up to you how this turns out. Do not be influenced by any political party or family member or friends or anything you read on the internet (I once ate a 200 year old tortoise. Or did I? You can't believe everything you read on the net).

The great thing about boards.ie is that it provides a platform for both sides.
I suggest you use the European Union forum for all your Lisbon treaty needs and ignore the lunatic fringe lobbyists here in AH. I love them, but you have to take everything they say with a pinch of salt.


Vote wisely based on your own beliefs and not on what some stranger tells you on the internet or what someone with a vested interest tells you to vote for.


Edit: Voting yes because I'm voting yes is idiotic.
Voting no because I'm voting yes is equally as idiotic.

You have to be hard pushed to look for something wrong with that.

SV

Rather than starting a thread with little information (or crap supplied to you by American based people who will lose money if the vote doesn't go their way)

that coupled with

Before you ask, I'll be voting yes.
Do not read that as an endorsement for the yes side. Read it as me making an informed decision.

and then to top it off this

The yes side may not appeal to you, so this is why I urge you to read up on it before voting.

is what's wrong with that thread. It's ridiculously pro lisbon.

The great thing about boards.ie is that it provides a platform for both sides.

"So I locked this thread and now you can't comment"

Jumpy

SV wrote: »

that coupled with

and then to top it off this


is what's wrong with that thread. It's ridiculously pro lisbon.




"So I locked this thread and now you can't comment in AH"

Fixed your post.

skelliser

The yes side may not appeal to you, so this is why I urge you to read up on it before voting.

that imo is a loaded statement. if you cannot see that then i can only assume that there is a pro lisbon agenda here.

this is my only issue with the post


btw i voted yes

ShooterSF

Leaving aside my interest as to why Lisbon has become a no go area in AH for a second.

Can anyone tell me why a simple post telling people that Lisbon was not to be discussed and a link to the european forum as a place for people to take it instead would not have sufficed? Then this argument would never have existed.

Though, again, I don't see the issue. Politics has been discussed as far back as I can remember in AH. What's so different here?

My name is URL

Beruthiel wrote: »

How would anyone know that?
More to the point, what difference does it make?



I wouldn't know, I have not been following posters enough to know which way they will vote.
I expect that would be the same for 99% of users on this site.

I don't know, but I'd assume that the fact that Terry said he'd be voting yes would cause those who share his stance to agree with him and thank the post.

It doesn't matter that it gets thanked, if it was simply a mod warning about not bringing up the issue of Lisbon on the forum, it's the fact that the post contained his own personal view while at the same time scuppering any counter argument.

This line in particular is mildly insulting -

So before you go starting a thread on whether you should vote yes or no (If you're asking people on the internet how you should vote, then you really need to hand in your polling card. Seriously. If you can't decide for yourself (or if daddy tells you how to vote)), then you really shouldn't be allowed to vote.

it infers that people reading the thread have in fact asked what they should vote for, I haven't seen one thread where anyone has asked "Should I vote Yes or No?"

Anyway, if it's gonna be left there so be it.

I don't think it belongs in AH, it's nothing against Terry or his opinion.

dr.bollocko

ShooterSF wrote: »

Leaving aside my interest as to why Lisbon has become a no go area in AH for a second.

Can anyone tell me why a simple post telling people that Lisbon was not to be discussed and a link to the european forum as a place for people to take it instead would not have sufficed? Then this argument would never have existed.

Though, again, I don't see the issue. Politics has been discussed as far back as I can remember in AH. What's so different here?

We've simply decided that the EU forum is the best place for this type of discussion and have pointed posters there. We take all topics on a case by case basis. In this case the discussion is more suited to the EU forum.

ShooterSF

dr.bollocko wrote: »

We've simply decided that the EU forum is the best place for this type of discussion and have pointed posters there. We take all topics on a case by case basis. In this case the discussion is more suited to the EU forum.

That's fair enough. I might disagree but I can respect that decision.
Though I still think Terry's post should have been brief, stuck to the point and kept the mod hat on imo. It would be the safest option when trying to stay impartial. Instead he has left his statement open to ,at best, being mis-read.

faceman

Since when is After Hours the political resource for the Irish people? There is already an EU and politics forum. Politics dont belong in AH so Terry's sticky was a good idea.

While it could be argued that he shouldnt have mentioned he is voting yes, Terry is hardly representing the admins, mod community, After Hours users and/or anyone else for that matter by stating his opinion in the post. I wouldnt have done it myself, but i didnt read anything into it other than his own opinion. AH is hardly Prime Time. Is any thread in AH ever impartial?

Really growing tired of this tippy toeing around the Lisbon treaty. No matter what way you are voting for Lisbon, the message that all parties, no matter what side they sit on, should be read the facts before voting. As the surveys showed from Lisbon 1, one of the main reasons people voted no was because they didnt understand what they were voting for. Lies are been spun by both camps in this referendum.

Now can we get back to talking about normal stuff like Debs and Condoms, beans on toast and dodgy taxi drivers?

Splinter

My name is URL wrote: »

Some/Most/All of the people that thanked the post are pro-Lisbon. If it was worded differently the anti-Lisbon crowd would be thanking it, and it would still be in the wrong forum.


And it's bloody condescending to assume that people won't read up on it tbh, sure those people will be the only ones that vote no !

I personally do not intend on voting yes and I thanked the post. To assume we are sheep following Terry is a bit much. I thanked the post because it tells people not to ask how to vote and also to make their own informed choice.

your second statment is the loaded one, presuming people who dont read or dont know the treaty will be no voters. Feedback is not the place for a comment like that

humanji

In fairness if Terry hadn't said which way he was voting, this thread would be a complaint about how he should of made it clear what way he was voting. You just can't win sometimes.

ShooterSF

humanji wrote: »

In fairness if Terry hadn't said which way he was voting, this thread would be a complaint about how he should of made it clear what way he was voting. You just can't win sometimes.

How do you figure (That's the polite version of what I typed)? The thread wasn't a discussion it was making posters aware of the rules re: Lisbon and AH. Given that point surely all that was needed is the rules.

My name is URL

Splinter wrote: »

your second statment is the loaded one, presuming people who dont read or dont know the treaty will be no voters. Feedback is not the place for a comment like that

I already said I was being sarcastic with that statement.

Terry's post was about telling people to read up on it, an assumption that people would not read up on it. And since Terry read up on it he will be voting Yes.. implying that those who vote No, didn't

humanji

ShooterSF wrote: »

How do you figure (That's the polite version of what I typed)? The thread wasn't a discussion it was making posters aware of the rules re: Lisbon and AH. Given that point surely all that was needed is the rules.

It wasn't about the rules at all. It was telling people to inform themselves before they vote.

dr.bollocko

My name is URL wrote: »

I already said I was being sarcastic with that statement.

Terry's post was about telling people to read up on it, an assumption that people would not read up on it. And since Terry read up on it he will be voting Yes.. implying that those who vote No, didn't

Terry never meant in any way to make that implication. Of that I am certain. If you are reading that into it then that is a stretch tbh particularly considering the post as a whole.

humanji

My name is URL wrote: »

I already said I was being sarcastic with that statement.

Terry's post was about telling people to read up on it, an assumption that people would not read up on it. And since Terry read up on it he will be voting Yes.. implying that those who vote No, didn't

That's only what you read from it. I see him stating that he has read up on the subject and has made a decision based on the information given to him. He then says (many times) that you should make up your own mind.

My name is URL

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Terry never meant in any way to make that implication. Of that I am certain. If you are reading that into it then that is a stretch tbh particularly considering the post as a whole.

humanji wrote: »

That's only what you read from it. I see him stating that he has read up on the subject and has made a decision based on the information given to him. He then says (many times) that you should make up your own mind.

Fair enough, maybe I did read too much into it.

The original point I made is still perfectly cromulent though =p

It's more of a political thread than an advisory by a mod not to post about Lisbon in the forum

ShooterSF

humanji wrote: »

It wasn't about the rules at all. It was telling people to inform themselves before they vote.

It was somewhat about the rules. The question that leaves then is how is people's education about Lisbon relevant to AH, especially while telling us AH is not the place to discuss Lisbon?

nesf

Jumpy wrote: »

Im undecided, but why are all the hardcore Lisbon Loonies™ on the No side?

I don't know but honestly, I'd like a couple of lunatic Yes campaigners on the European Union forum so I could ban them for a change. :P

Scofflaw

nesf wrote: »

I don't know but honestly, I'd like a couple of lunatic Yes campaigners on the European Union forum so I could ban them for a change. :P

Absolutely. I know I'd feel a lot better afterwards. Even a nice federalist troll would do.

cordially,
Scofflaw

humanji

My name is URL wrote: »

Fair enough, maybe I did read too much into it.

The original point I made is still perfectly cromulent though =p

It's more of a political thread than an advisory by a mod not to post about Lisbon in the forum

I think that, simply for using the word "cromulent" in a sentence, anything else you ever say should be obeyed without quesiton.

ShooterSF wrote: »

It was somewhat about the rules. The question that leaves then is how is people's education about Lisbon relevant to AH, especially while telling us AH is not the place to discuss Lisbon?

It's relevant because people keep asking about it. Leaving that post as the only mention of Lisbon in AH seems a reasonable compromise to me.

ShooterSF

humanji wrote: »

It's relevant because people keep asking about it. Leaving that post as the only mention of Lisbon in AH seems a reasonable compromise to me.

Again what advantage does it offer say over a post simply telling people AH is not the place to discuss Lisbon but rather the european sub-forum of politics? Why the need for anything further?

nesf

ShooterSF wrote: »

Again what advantage does it offer say over a post simply telling people AH is not the place to discuss Lisbon but rather the european sub-forum of politics? Why the need for anything further?

Does there have to be a need? Terry is entitled to his own opinions on the matter and his post underlined the fact that boards.ie is non-partisan in this. Christ if anything we've got a lot more No posters on the European Union forum than Yes posters.

humanji

Because there's loads of people who complain about not knowing about the treaty. If you listent o most of the Yes/No campaigns, you'd think it's the most important thing to ever happen. So what harm is there in telling people to find out about it? Ah is one of the busiest forums on the site, so people will see the notice and maybe, just maybe, pull their fingers out and find out what they're voting on.

Bob_Harris

humanji wrote: »

So what harm is there in telling people to find out about it? Ah is one of the busiest forums on the site, so people will see the notice and maybe, just maybe, pull their fingers out and find out what they're voting on.

Maybe they will, but they will also go with a slight leaning to the Yes side after reading it.

My name is URL

nesf wrote: »

Does there have to be a need? Terry is entitled to his own opinions on the matter and his post underlined the fact that boards.ie is non-partisan in this. Christ if anything we've got a lot more No posters on the European Union forum than Yes posters.

It's somewhat partisan if user discussion is not allowed on a particular forum other than one post made by a mod, whether it's anti or pro Lisbon.

humanji

Maybe they will, but they will also go with a slight leaning to the Yes side after reading it.

If they're simplistic morons with no ability to decide for themselves, then maybe. Seriously, this inferiority complex of the No voters is insane. Ye won last time and will most definitely win next time. Why worry?

Red Sleeping Beauty

Boards doesn't have very many "general discussion" forums and After Hours is probably the closest to it. It also doesn't have a current affairs forum (unless you count the desolate News and Media forum) so by proxy After Hours is kind of a forum where general stuff goes. A little flavour of politics wouldn't hurt. Similar to a "pub discussion" I suppose as its been called before. There's a difference between general discussion, current affairs and politics discussions.

Terry's post is hardly a ringing endorsement for voting yes (nor would it be if he said he's voting no) and he's not stated any reason for his vote but I'm assuming given the thrust of his post that he's read the treaty, or part of it. He didn't add in any links though for where you can read it. I did post here with some useful links on where you can read the treaty. Might be worth a copy pasta.

Is all Lisbon Treaty discussion now lock-downed across all forums save for the European Union forum ?

nesf

My name is URL wrote: »

It's somewhat partisan if user discussion is not allowed on a particular forum other than one post made by a mod, whether it's anti or pro Lisbon.

It's not really. We have mods openly campaigning for a No vote on EU. If someone is impressionable to vote Yes based on Terry's post then they'll probably be stupid enough to switch to a No after seeing their first Coir poster.

Seriously, mountain, molehill.

MmmmmCheese

Telling people what he was voting for wasnt necessary.

I'm not voting myself so i don't particularly care but thats just my two cents.

My name is URL

nesf wrote: »

It's not really. We have mods openly campaigning for a No vote on EU. If someone is impressionable to vote Yes based on Terry's post then they'll probably be stupid enough to switch to a No after seeing their first Coir poster.

Seriously, mountain, molehill.

If Terry had stated that he was going to vote No would the same people have thanked his post?

It's a politically fueled thread. The issue would be the same had it been anti-Lisbon.

The fact is it's in the wrong forum. imo, if it was intended to dissuade users from posting about Lisbon in AH it should have simply asked that of users and provided links to the appropriate forum, it shouldn't have been an opinion piece

marco_polo

nesf wrote: »

I don't know but honestly, I'd like a couple of lunatic Yes campaigners on the European Union forum so I could ban them for a change. :P

Scofflaw wrote: »

Absolutely. I know I'd feel a lot better afterwards. Even a nice federalist troll would do.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I categorically deny that the Valrey_Giscard_d'Estaing_Is_God account which is about to be registered is mine

nesf

My name is URL wrote: »

If Terry had stated that he was going to vote No would the same people have thanked his post?

If it still contained the core message of "go find out about the Treaty, don't just take the posters at face value", I'd still be approve of it.

My name is URL

nesf wrote: »

If it still contained the core message of "go find out about the Treaty, don't just take the posters at face value", I'd still be approve of it.

Would you really?

If he had said, "I've done my research and have decided to vote No" would you or others be as supportive of the thread?

Without wanting to go off on tangents, I find it grossly unfair that people will question ones reasoning for making a decision purely because it contradicts their own decisions.

nesf

My name is URL wrote: »

Would you really?

If he had said, "I've done my research and have decided to vote No" would you or others be as supportive of the thread?

Without wanting to go off on tangents, I find it grossly unfair that people will question ones reasoning for making a decision purely because it contradicts their own decisions.

Yes, because as I've stated multiple times on the EU forum there are some logical and coherent positions from which to vote No. The core one being that you oppose any sharing of sovereignty with a pan-national body. In such a case then it makes complete sense to vote No, I'd disagree with you but I'd fully respect your position.

My name is URL

nesf wrote: »

Yes, because as I've stated multiple times on the EU forum there are some logical and coherent positions from which to vote No. The core one being that you oppose any sharing of sovereignty with a pan-national body. In such a case then it makes complete sense to vote No, I'd disagree with you but I'd fully respect your position.

Well you wouldn't need to disagree with me because I'm not anti-Lisbon.

My complaint is purely down to the fact that Terry demonstrated his backing of the treaty, in the wrong forum, and at the same time basically told others not to express their opinions, and then stickied it as thought-out piece of advice for others.

If it had stated that he would vote No, I'd still have an issue with it, and I'm sure that some of the people that thanked it would also have an issue with it.

I just don't think it needs to be there

BuffyBot

..this thread has a limited lifespan tbh.

Mountain, molehill indeed..

My name is URL

BuffyBot wrote: »

..this thread has a limited lifespan tbh.

Mountain, molehill indeed..

Because you don't agree with it..

Close it

But give some reasons as to why the thread needs to be a sticky in AH before you do

nesf

My name is URL wrote: »

If it had stated that he would vote No, I'd still have an issue with it, and I'm sure that some of the people that thanked it would also have an issue with it.

You're assuming that it's only acceptable because he's a Yes supporter? If you think that's why the Admins haven't acted then you're honestly seeing things that are not there.