What is 'Irish' anyway?

Long Onion

Loads of threads recently, banging on about the Lisbon Treaty and how it will be bad for our sovereignty, buying Irish goods to support Ireland, foreign workers tukking ur jawbs, blighty stealing our counties, yadda yadda yadda.

Got me thinking, now that we have no comely maidens left to dance at the crossroads, now that the land of one hundred thousand welcomes has been replaced by the land of miserable service industry workers, now that travel is easy and cheap, that the world wide web has created knowledge without frontiers, what exactly is 'Irish' anymore.

What cultural ideals are we clinging to, what are we afraid of losing? I finished reading one of Obama's books recently and I am depressed to think that chosen representatives are a million miles removed from this man (i am not commenting on his politiacl reign so far, just his intellect and view on what politics should be). The sniping and squabbling amongst the population about NAMA, Lisbon etc has been revaeling. Where is our sense of the greater good gone? To be honest, I don't know anymore and the sad thing is, I don't think I care.

I am this close to saying "Fcuk Ireland, fcuk Irish culture, let me be European instead at least then I wouldn't have to convince myself that there is anything worth saving anymore."

Can someone please persuade me that there is something left to hold on to?:(

I_am_Jebus

no. there is nothing.

topper75

You are spot on about our identity crisis. I think it is driven by the whole 'Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam' problem. But that is a whole other story.

But is the solution to this to plunge headlong into 'Europe'. I mean what is this Europe project about anyway? There are too many diverse entities within it to have any meaning or identity. I like travelling around Europe and love meeting the people and learning about their cultures. But we can't adopt theirs really.

If our culture has fallen by the wayside, Britain is done for completely.

MelonieHead

Long Onion wrote: »

now that the land of one hundred thousand welcomes has been replaced by the land of miserable service industry workers

I've never been able to figure out just how Ireland got that particular reputation.

Jay P

topper75 wrote: »

You are spot on about our identity crisis. I think it is driven by the whole 'Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam' problem. But that is a whole other story.

But is the solution to this to plunge headlong into 'Europe'. I mean what is this Europe project about anyway? There are too many diverse entities within it to have any meaning or identity. I like travelling around Europe and love meeting the people and learning about their cultures. But we can't adopt theirs really.

If our culture has fallen by the wayside, Britain is done for completely.

Well if it means anything, one of our most recognisable traits as Irish people is our friendliness. Now, before you all say it doesn't exist anymore, Iw as talking to an American at work last night and he said he loved coming to Ireland because the people are so nice. No, I was a bit skeptical, but I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have said it unless he had meant it, as did every other guest at that wedding (all Americans). Is this enough to hold hope for Irish culture? Not likely. Who still speaks Irish? Nobody. As a nation, we have made the collective decision to turn our backs on tradition as the celtic tiger turned us all into money-hungry basterds. Possibly the one idealism we still retain is GAA. But even the GAA is flawed. This supposedly amateur organisation left its amateur grassroots behind, unfortunately.

When I gro up, I will probably emmigrate, and what will I bring with me? I can't think of anything that will remind me that I'm Irish.

thomond2006

Ireland ain't so bad.

armaghbhoy

just read about a poll that shows a fall in the number of people in support of the lisbon treaty..but either way this will be forced upon the Irish people. thats why theres another vote. They need this to happen so no matter what it will happen. Then soon enough it will join with the North American Union, Asian Union and the African Union, forming a one world government.

Long Onion

armaghbhoy wrote: »

just read about a poll that shows a fall in the number of people in support of the lisbon treaty..but either way this will be forced upon the Irish people. thats why theres another vote. They need this to happen so no matter what it will happen. Then soon enough it will join with the North American Union, Asian Union and the African Union, forming a one world government.

Yep, and then we will be forced to take the swineflu vaccine which actually contains nanoreceptors capable of picking up secret communications about the New World Order which are buried deep within the lyrics of Dana records.:rolleyes:

How's Jim Corr these days?

Neamhshuntasach

I don't need anything to reaffirm my belief and proudness that i'm Irish. I'm Irish and i know i am. That's it.

Long Onion

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

I don't need anything to reaffirm my belief and proudness that i'm Irish. I'm Irish and i know i am. That's it.

But what is it about your 'irishness' that makes you proud?

Is it the fact that we can agree on nothing and whinge and moan that everything is the fault of someone else.

Is it the fact that we have no idea how to fix a problem but despite this, we are certain that the 'other sides' idea is wrong.

Is it the fact that the weather is p1ssy?

Is it our fine pork produce?

Roy Keane?

What is it about 'irishness' particularly that makes people proud?

phasers

Isn't it a language or something?

Elmo

phasers wrote: »

Isn't it a language or something?

- people of Ireland or of Irish extraction
- whiskey made in Ireland chiefly from barley
- the Celtic language of Ireland
- of or relating to or characteristic of Ireland or its people

If it helps. I have heard nothing about anyone talking about how the Lisbon treaty give up our Irishness or jobs to "non-nationals" etc. Problem with the Yes and No side they are both telling us that either there are jobs after Lisbon or that the mini wage will be reduce because of Lisbon. This kind of nonsense from both side is particurlarly bad and pointless.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam'

I always wonder how well we would have done if we all spoke Irish, as well as the other European nations that don't speak English. The mantra of "Ireland is a leading economy due to the English language" becomes less and less of an advantage IMO most countries have English as their Second language some even as their 3rd or 4th.

asdasd

Is it the fact that we can agree on nothing and whinge and moan that everything is the fault of someone else.

the only whinging and moaning on this thread is you. You are a fine example typical of the "I hate Ireland because people moan" brigade.

With respect to NAMA; some people agree with the idea, some people don't and voice their disagreements. What's the word that rhymes with Memocracy and begins with D which defines this system?

Sh*t. Can't think. On the tip of my tongue, though.

Long Onion

asdasd wrote: »

the only whinging and moaning on this thread is you. You are a fine example typical of the "I hate Ireland because people moan" brigade.

Sometimes, irony is the best way of getting a point across.

asdasd wrote: »

What's the word that rhymes with Memocracy and begins with D which defines this system?

Sh*t. Can't think. On the tip of my tongue, though.

It's "Damnautocracy" I believe.

dlofnep

If you're Irishhhhhhhhhhhhhh get out of the garden!

Long Onion

Elmo wrote: »

If it helps. I have heard nothing about anyone talking about how the Lisbon treaty give up our Irishness or jobs to "non-nationals" etc. Problem with the Yes and No side they are both telling us that either there are jobs after Lisbon or that the mini wage will be reduce because of Lisbon. This kind of nonsense from both side is particurlarly bad and pointless.

You missed the fella from the UK independence party on the radio yesterday evening. I thought it ironic that he was telling us how important a no vote was for Ireland to retain its sovereignty, but he stuck it to Lucinda Creighton though when she mentioned 1916.

Elmo

Long Onion wrote: »

You missed the fella from the UK independence party on the radio yesterday evening. I thought it ironic that he was telling us how important a no vote was for Ireland to retain its sovereignty, but he stuck it to Lucinda Creighton though when she mentioned 1916.

Why would I listen to foreigners* :rolleyes:

Long Onion

Elmo wrote: »

Why would I listen to foreigners* :rolleyes:

Because if you did, you may hear their greater plan, that they are only here to tuk ar jawbs and child benefit. Us Irish would never think about moving to other countries to do the same now, would we?

Elmo

Long Onion wrote: »

Because if you did, you may hear their greater plan, that they are only here to tuk ar jawbs and child benefit. Us Irish would never think about moving to other countries to do the same now, would we?

We only do that when we have done something illegal over here and generally we set up an Irish bar with funds we "legitimately" got while claiming Irish state benefit in Portugal, the weather is nice but the social welfare is ****.

ChocolateSauce

Ireland is where I grew up, it is the culture I am familiar with, and that culture is highly Anglo-Saxon, but with a unique blend of wishful thinking and faking.

Lisbon won't do any damage to our culture- that damage was done long, long ago, and the EU has been nothing but supportive of the identities of each member state.

Fratton Fred

I fail to see what lisbon has got to do with "Irishness" personally. All cultures are being slowly diluted as the world becomes a smaller place and the US multinationals increase their influence.

joiing the EU isn't going to stop that.

whitetigerkungf

With respect to NAMA; some people agree with the idea, some people don't and voice their disagreements. What's the word that rhymes with Memocracy and begins with D which defines this system?

is it not Mediocrity but i dont know where your getting the D from:D

philologos

Ireland is a lot of things. Ultimately, Ireland and Irish are going to be what cultural character is exhibited from Ireland at a particular time. We need to be open to the fact that what Irish is now is a very different thing than what Irish was back in previous ages.

Ireland is defined by the people who live in it whether they are migrants from overseas, or people who have been born and raised in Ireland. I would personally conclude that all people who are living in Ireland could be rightly considered Irish.

As racial / ethnic homogenity is undermined further through a more multicultural world, it will be impossible for us to assume that Irish merely refers to an ethnicity but the cultural character of Ireland at a given time, which as always is subject to change.

asdasd

Us Irish would never think about moving to other countries to do the same now, would we?

Whataboutary. In most cases Irish immigration is to work. There is little incentive to leave the 200 euro a week and go get the 45 euro a week elsewhere.


There was always a lot of **** talked about this. I remember back in the 80's as a kid watching some TV program where the "working class" ( generally the lumpens) saying they were hit hardest by emigration. Bollocks. It was the country working class,lower middle class, and even graduate class which emigrated, and then the city based versions. The upper classes stayed here, and the lumpens. Both had it better.

opposition to the EU becuase of immigration makes sense for the working classes, doesnt it?

asdasd

I would personally conclude that all people who are living in Ireland could be rightly considered Irish.

You'd be wrong. Irishness is an ethnic marker, not a civic nationalism, and certainly not something you get by emigrating. The same is true in England. You can immigrate but you will be Irish, not English ( if you are Irish). And so on. Japan for instance. It would be the height of absurdity to go there and claim that you are Japanese.

philologos

asdasd wrote: »

You'd be wrong. Irishness is an ethnic marker, not a civic nationalism, and certainly not something you get by emigrating. The same is true in England. You can immigrate but you will be Irish, not English ( if you are Irish). And so on. Japan for instance. It would be the height of absurdity to go there and claim that you are Japanese.

Ethnicity as a defining marker is dwindling in many societies, I reckon Ireland will also follow the same path over the next century at least.

It doesn't particularly matter in England whether you are Pakistani, Punjabi, Hindu, Jewish, Arab, Persian or any other number of ethnicities that you can be, you are still British if you are eligible to the citizenship standard.

Pretty much in Ireland, if you are of any ethnic group, as long as you are eligible to the citizenship standard you are effectively Irish. I know people who are of different ethnic groups in Ireland who would be just as Irish as anyone else in expression.

We have to decide whether or not Ireland is going to be an inclusive society (I.E Irishness as a concept being very open) to being an exclusive society (I.E Irishness as a concept being very closed).

It's not even really that ethnicity is a defining marker in Ireland now, if you think about it more closely, Irish people are made up of quite a number of different ethnicities from Norman, Viking, Anglo-Saxon, and so on. The first Irish were from the Basque country if we go by the Rb1 Y-chromosone. We are already a mix of differing ethnicities whether we like it or not.

asdasd

It's not even really that ethnicity is a defining marker in Ireland now, if you think about it more closely, Irish people are made up of quite a number of different ethnicities from Norman, Viking, Anglo-Saxon, and so on. The first Irish were from the Basque country if we go by the Rb1 Y-chromosone. We are already a mix of differing ethnicities whether we like it or not.

Firstly, hardly. All of these people intermarried - which is a biological act. Where they didn't <cough> ulster unionists</cough> they didnt consider themselve Irish.

Ethnic groups form over time. The English are Anglo Saxon-Celtic but most English history has happened since the arrival of the Angles and Saxons.

It doesn't particularly matter in England whether you are Pakistani, Punjabi, Hindu, Jewish, Arab, Persian or any other number of ethnicities that you can be, you are still British if you are eligible to the citizenship standard.

British is not an ethnicity. It is a citizenship. The nations of Britain are Scotland, Wales,a nd England.

The idea that nationalism is fading is, by the way, the **** of a few declining deracianated Western elites who arent reproducing. China is not going univeral and anti-nationalist, neither is Japan, neither the Middle East, neither is Eastern Europe, neither (for that matter) is anywhere else in the world. Certainly not Russia. The ideas of a non-national future are bunk. It is the primal force driving man-kind.

In the UK for instance, a multi-national State, there are 4-5 seperatist movements. The SNP, Sinn Fein, Plyd Cymru. Even English Democrats and Cornish Nationalists ( who did better than Labour in the last election in Cornwall). Besides this motley crew we have pan-UK nationalists including the UKIP and the BNP.

Declining nationalism? In total these parties wiped the arse of the Left.

genericguy

whitetigerkungf wrote: »

With respect to NAMA; some people agree with the idea, some people don't and voice their disagreements. What's the word that rhymes with Memocracy and begins with D which defines this system?

is it not Mediocrity but i dont know where your getting the D from:D

abortion?

asdasd

In any case I was arguing against the point that anybody living If Ireland ( for how long?) is Irish... they dont even believe that themselves, and most dont have Irish passports. When born and brought up here they become Irish. But that has not happened yet, in most cases.

asdasd

abortion?

Um, no. that would not begin with D, now would it? Although I suppose we democratically oppose abortion, and so we dont get it, if that is what you mean.

blinding

Maybe we should keep a little war against the british going somewhere just to keep our Irish identity going.

Fighting the Brits has been such an important part of our Irish identity that I sort of miss it;)

If I am Irish I am not anything else am I, except I could be British-Irish(or is that Irish-British). Ahh ahh pass me a bódhran and some protestant guinness will you. Is that some crooked politician/banker I see coming in the door (jeez those guns could come in useful yet). Ahh a hurley will have to do or at least a smather in the face with the big ball.(additional edit: maybe even a cricket bat these days)

And to top it all no oil or natural resources and weather that would drown a tough fooking duck and even deep in that kind of s**t property prices were out of this world.

So to sum up we could do with a scrap against the brits if they think they are hard enough, we will keep the old sectarianism going(it still going strong in some parts of the country). Throw in a bit of Irish music and the GAA. Some less heavy Guinness for our less virile younger generation.
Probably will keep some begrudgers but fook them anyway and of course we must keep some examples of big time Charlies (and Charlettes) from the Celtic pussy years.

Now if the rest of ye think like me then your Irish and if you don't your not. Fooking hell will the rain never stop is that a big pike I see coming up the garden path.

I better be going there are two fellas in white coats carrying an interesting jacket in hot pursuit of the pike.

asdasd

Blinding is a good example of the anti-Irish Irish. A plethora of racist insults which would have been common enough in the Daily Mail in their anti-Irish phase. If anyone doubts the colonialist sleeveenisn of such sad f*ckers, imagine a country uncolonised making the same remarks about it's culture. A frenchman, for instance?

So whats going on here? Well after years of colonisation I think that - if we accept that culture partly a construct - some Irish people became effectively English. They havent moved on from anti-irish racism either, unlike the actual real English.

BennyLava

It really depends on where your coming from, nationalists will have one way for defining 'Irishness' while those of a more liberal persuasion would have a different way

There are various ways of defining it, cultural, ethnic, historic, dependent on which criteria you use the results will throw up a different mix

To my mind there are at least 5 types of Irish in the world at the moment
Southern, Ulster Unionist, Traveller, foreign born Irish diaspora, and New Irish (immigrant children born here)

Irish covers them all, and all have a unique interpretation of what it is to be Irish.

Captain Furball

philologos

asdasd wrote: »

Firstly, hardly. All of these people intermarried - which is a biological act. Where they didn't <cough> ulster unionists</cough> they didnt consider themselve Irish.

That's my point. All of them intermarried, hence why Irish isn't a singular ethnic group, it is a compound of many, and it will continue to be a compound of many.

As for Ulster Unionists not considering themselves Irish, that's not entirely true, in many cases people consider themselves British and Irish, just as others would consider themselves Welsh and British, or English and British.

asdasd wrote: »

Ethnic groups form over time. The English are Anglo Saxon-Celtic but most English history has happened since the arrival of the Angles and Saxons.

They form from many differing ethnic groups which have come previously. Most likely that will happen again, and what is Irish will be very different biologically as well as culturally in the future.

asdasd wrote: »

British is not an ethnicity. It is a citizenship. The nations of Britain are Scotland, Wales,a nd England.

Indeed, it's a national identity. Irish can be too. It depends how one defines it. Personally I think if you are an Irish citizen you are Irish and you should be regarded as such.

asdasd wrote: »

The idea that nationalism is fading is, by the way, the **** of a few declining deracianated Western elites who arent reproducing. China is not going univeral and anti-nationalist, neither is Japan, neither the Middle East, neither is Eastern Europe, neither (for that matter) is anywhere else in the world. Certainly not Russia. The ideas of a non-national future are bunk. It is the primal force driving man-kind.

I'd call it reality. I never said that Ireland won't be a nation, but that Ireland will be a very different nation from what it was in the past. As for China, Japan, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe. You are picking homogenous societies by and large. Of course this notion isn't declining there because they haven't had the same migration experience that we are having in Western Europe and in the USA. If or should I say when this occurs in these areas, there will be the same net effect on their societies as it is having on ours.

We have the choice of either embracing it, or opposing it strongly.

asdasd wrote: »

In the UK for instance, a multi-national State, there are 4-5 seperatist movements. The SNP, Sinn Fein, Plyd Cymru. Even English Democrats and Cornish Nationalists ( who did better than Labour in the last election in Cornwall). Besides this motley crew we have pan-UK nationalists including the UKIP and the BNP.

The BNP and UKIP are perfect examples of those who have decided to oppose change in demographics strongly.

The nationalist movements such as the SNP, although separatist movements are going to have to deal with changes in demographics, and changes in cultural group if Scotland ever does separate itself from the UK.

asdasd wrote: »

Declining nationalism? In total these parties wiped the arse of the Left.

Considering that Sinn Féin and the SNP are centre-left parties. I think it's quite funny that you claim that they have done what they have.

The BNP is a party which is of the far right breed that is growing in Europe at the minute, along with the National Front in France, Vlaams Blok in Belguim. One of the downsides of this is that they only serve to fragment their societies more in the light of an inevitable migration trend. Being opposed to immigration in such a strong way only encourages people not to wish to integrate. Welcoming and embracing people encourages them in turn to embrace the societies that they live in.

As for UKIP, the last point is very much applicable to them also.

Thankfully Ireland has been spared the growth of the NRR (new radical right). I think Ireland should deal with migration in a constructive manner, rather than in a destructive manner.

blinding

asdasd wrote: »

Blinding is a good example of the anti-Irish Irish. A plethora of racist insults which would have been common enough in the Daily Mail in their anti-Irish phase. If anyone doubts the colonialist sleeveenisn of such sad f*ckers, imagine a country uncolonised making the same remarks about it's culture. A frenchman, for instance?

So whats going on here? Well after years of colonisation I think that - if we accept that culture partly a construct - some Irish people became effectively English. They havent moved on from anti-irish racism either, unlike the actual real English.

Don't take my post too seriously as you can see at the end that this view is my view on a crazy day (lunatic to the asylum)

But that does not mean that these crazy views cannot be examined.

I personally believe that our failure to secure a proper political settlement for the entire Island of Ireland is a major stumbling block to our maturing as a nation. There are "Peace" walls between communities in places on this Island. How can a nation reach maturity when such a situation exists in this day and age.

Elmo

asdasd wrote: »

In the UK for instance, a multi-national State, there are 4-5 seperatist movements. The SNP, Sinn Fein, Plyd Cymru. Even English Democrats and Cornish Nationalists ( who did better than Labour in the last election in Cornwall). Besides this motley crew we have pan-UK nationalists including the UKIP and the BNP.

Declining nationalism? In total these parties wiped the arse of the Left.

Aren't the unionist British Nationalist?

Declining nationalism, increasing Internationalism or if I state that I am a European amn't I a Euro Nationalist?

Neamhshuntasach

Long Onion wrote: »

But what is it about your 'irishness' that makes you proud?

Is it the fact that we can agree on nothing and whinge and moan that everything is the fault of someone else.

Is it the fact that we have no idea how to fix a problem but despite this, we are certain that the 'other sides' idea is wrong.

Is it the fact that the weather is p1ssy?

Is it our fine pork produce?

Roy Keane?

What is it about 'irishness' particularly that makes people proud?

What makes me proud to be Irish? The culture, the history, the sport, the language, friends, family, the landscape, the accents, lots of things. I don't need the actions of others or of Ireland to justify my pride. I don't care if we aren't winning world cups, have crap weather, are partly occupied by a foreign power, a laughable political playground or as you put, people with conflicting opinions and a willingness to blame others. Your judging that collectively. I don't have any of those traits you listed and even if i did. I wouldn't be uniquely sharing them with just the people of Ireland. I agree with a lot of things. Same way i disagree with a lot of things. That's freewill. And i don't moan and whinge and blame others. And if i can fix something i will.

I've lived and been to a lot of countries. And i can honestly say the fact i had that privilege increased my Irish pride even more. I know people have said we are a nation of begrudgers but it seems lately that the new trend is self hatred. The amount of threads putting down Ireland by Irish people is unbelievable.

Míshásta

We're just English without the Royal family.

Sin a bhfuil de.

Salvelinus

armaghbhoy wrote: »

just read about a poll that shows a fall in the number of people in support of the lisbon treaty..but either way this will be forced upon the Irish people. thats why theres another vote. They need this to happen so no matter what it will happen. Then soon enough it will join with the North American Union, Asian Union and the African Union, forming a one world government.

Think you got tin foil poisoning

tonycascarino

topper75 wrote: »

But is the solution to this to plunge headlong into 'Europe'. I mean what is this Europe project about anyway? There are too many diverse entities within it to have any meaning or identity. I like travelling around Europe and love meeting the people and learning about their cultures. But we can't adopt theirs really.

I have to agree with everything that you just said. I think European integration has gone far enough to be completely honest.

Elmo

blinding wrote: »

If I am Irish I am not anything else am I, except I could be British-Irish(or is that Irish-British). Ahh ahh pass me a bódhran and some protestant guinness will you. Is that some crooked politician/banker I see coming in the door (jeez those guns could come in useful yet). Ahh a hurley will have to do or at least a smather in the face with the big ball.

The word your looking for is Anglo-Irish. And it would be protestant Bushmills And sure enough with your bódhran your away in a hack, just don't call the bank Anglo-Irish as that might be pushing it a bit TBH.

An Fear Aniar

Sovereignty isn't about our culture. It's about real day-to-day issues like being able to make our own laws and set our own taxes.

It's not about Irish identity, it's about the group of people who live within the state's borders being able to manage their own affairs.

.

Jesus Juice

Bacon and Cabbage with a pint of milk.

Elmo

Jesus Juice wrote: »

Bacon and Cabbage with a pint of milk.

What about the Spuds?

Rebelheart

asdasd wrote: »

Blinding is a good example of the anti-Irish Irish. A plethora of racist insults which would have been common enough in the Daily Mail in their anti-Irish phase.

Has that passed?

According to John S. Doyle in his review of the daily papers on Morning Ireland yesterday morning the Daily Mail had an editorial and several opinion pieces calling for the Irish to align with British nationalists and reject the Lisbon Treaty.

I know Lisbon is good for Ireland when the historically anti-Irish British rightwing is raging against it.

Jesus Juice

Elmo wrote: »

What about the Spuds?

Nah Bacon and Cabbage is for when you want a break from spuds ya see!!

Snakeblood

armaghbhoy wrote: »

just read about a poll that shows a fall in the number of people in support of the lisbon treaty..but either way this will be forced upon the Irish people. thats why theres another vote. They need this to happen so no matter what it will happen. Then soon enough it will join with the North American Union, Asian Union and the African Union, forming a one world government.

I'm keeping my urine in jars as a precaution against this happening. I recommend all others do the same.

Rebelheart

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Ireland is where I grew up, it is the culture I am familiar with, and that culture is highly Anglo-Saxon .... Lisbon won't do any damage to our culture- that damage was done long, long ago, and the EU has been nothing but supportive of the identities of each member state.

If the culture you grew up with in Ireland is "highly Anglo-Saxon" then I'm afraid for you that the European Union, of which Lisbon is a part, has done immense damage to that culture in Ireland.

Roll on the metric system, European legislation, European human and civic rights, European moral values, European environmental ideas and legislation, and much, much else. What a refreshing break from the suffocating intolerance, backwardness and dominance of the British state and its rabidly nationalistic cheerleaders in Ireland. Roll on progress, advancement and, yes, civilisation.

philologos

Rebelheart wrote: »

If the culture you grew up with in Ireland is "highly Anglo-Saxon" then I'm afraid for you that the European Union, of which Lisbon is a part, has done immense damage to that culture in Ireland.

Has it? In what way? If anything I'd think that Ireland has much more of a likeness to the UK than anywhere else in Europe.

Rebelheart wrote: »

Roll on the metric system, European legislation, European human and civic rights, European moral values, European environmental ideas and legislation, and much, much else. What a refreshing break from the suffocating intolerance, backwardness and dominance of the British state and its rabidly nationalistic cheerleaders in Ireland. Roll on progress, advancement and, yes, civilisation.

I'm not so sure by what you mean when you say "European human and civic rights, European moral values, and European environmental ideas and legislation".

Likewise I'm not so sure when you use the term "suffocating intolerance".

Progress, advancement and civilisation all mean different things to different people.

If you could give some concrete examples it might make it easier for us to know what exactly you mean when you use these terms.

Elmo

Rebelheart wrote: »

If the culture you grew up with in Ireland is "highly Anglo-Saxon" then I'm afraid for you that the European Union, of which Lisbon is a part, has done immense damage to that culture in Ireland.

Roll on the metric system, European legislation, European human and civic rights, European moral values, European environmental ideas and legislation, and much, much else. What a refreshing break from the suffocating intolerance, backwardness and dominance of the British state and its rabidly nationalistic cheerleaders in Ireland. Roll on progress, advancement and, yes, civilisation.

That makes no sense. Your bemoaning the lose "highly Anglo-Saxon" culture of Ireland, a culture that does little to reflect the real lives of people in this country. Have I missed the European Newspapers, TV channels and operas that everyone is raving about

So we now have the metric system and Decsmilization. You think this was the 1970s.

The British State did bring many advancement into Democracy however they often forgot to give it to the people or as they referred to them as Subjects.