The Angelus

Antbert

Does it really irk anyone else that the angelus plays at 6pm on a terrestrial channel? Still? In this current day?

What also irritates me about said Angelus (sp?) is the fact that they've made it extra multicultural. I'm all for multicultural, but not when you're saying 'yes, Ireland is multicultural now, but at least we're all Catholic'.

I think it's just a blatant demonstration of the fact that our church and state are inseperable. I'm unsure about my thoughts on other people being religious (I don't know how worthwhile it is trying to convince someone there probably isn't a god) but I'm very much convinced that religion should have absolutely no consequence outside of personal belief.

Galvasean

Yep, its a bit stupid that a state like Ireland gives one religion free publicity like that.

ChocolateSauce

Galvasean wrote: »

Yep, its a bit stupid that a state like Ireland gives one religion free publicity like that.

I'm sure if we brought it up with the government we'd be told it is constitutionally mandated!

Zombrex

The Angelus debate always ends up the same

Atheist (ie me) - RTE should get rid of the angelus, it is anti-secular and belongs in the past
Christian - You atheist get so worked up about this stuff. What is the harm with keeping it
Atheist - Well, I like I just said it is the state broadcaster promoting one particular religion's practice
Christian - Oh, there you go again getting so worked up about it, you fundamentalist atheist are all the same
Atheist - Er, I'm not getting worked up about it, I am simply putting the idea that it should be got rid of out there
Christian - I find it so laughable you get so worked up about a religion you don't even believe in. You want to push fundamentalist atheism on all of us
Atheist - Er, do you actually mind if we got rid of the Angelus?
Christian - YOU WILL OVER MY FREAKING DEAD BODY!!!!!

Any time someone suggests (often quite calmly) that the Angelus be gotten rid of they are met with charges that they are getting worked up over nothing (what is the harm of it) by people who tend to get really worked up over the idea that it be got rid of. It can be quite amusing to watch

It is not a "big deal" to keep it but neither is it a big deal to get rid of it, so why don't we just get rid of it.

ANTIFA!

in fairness it doesn't really matter. in principal i would get rid of it but who cares? the new generation of Irish would hardly know about it, cause most aren't listening to drive time or rte one.

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

Yep, its a bit stupid that a state like Ireland gives one religion free publicity like that.

If RTE gave one minute to the Flying Spaghetti Monster every day, then I'd be happy to leave the angelus where it is.

Live and let live, eh?

ChocolateSauce

robindch wrote: »

If RTE gave one minute to the Flying Spaghetti Monster every day, then I'd be happy to leave the angelus where it is.

Live and let live, eh?

If you and the Catholics get a minute for your *ahem* faith, I demand to see at least a minute of Yoda imparting wisdom every day too!

robindch

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I demand to see at least a minute of Yoda imparting wisdom every day too!

Why not. Any reason. See. I don't.

<burbling sounds>

Red Hand

I want a more varied sound from it. How about Scentless Apprentice in bell form?

Zillah

BONNNNGGG!


BONNNNGGG!


BONNNNGGG!


BONNNNGGG!


BONNNNGGG!


Get that shit off my TV please.

Stercus Accidit

At least the call to prayer has some musical quality to it.

Overblood

Ah there's a silver lining to every cloud though. I get a good laugh out of trying to guess when it will actually end.

BONGGGGGGGGGGG!

ok it's gonna end on the next one!

.......

BONGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

Feck! Ok this one is definitely the la...BONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!


Jesus! ok, €20 that this is the last one.....

...............


............................

....................................


BIONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!

Overblood

Who watches RTE anyways? I really don't care if they show it. Leave em off. Just flick over to another channel.

ShooterSF

It is a bit silly all right. As a kid I used to wreck my (very catholic) grandmother's head by "saying" the angelus every so often by just shouting out "booonnngggg".

Dades

robindch wrote: »

Why not. Any reason. See. I don't.

<burbling sounds>

That has got to be the worst Yoda impression I've ever read.

fisgon

The one time I did find it nauseating was when RTE radio 1 had just done an indepth feature into the Ryan report, and the details of the rape and enslavement that had gone on, hauling senior clerics up to answer for the actions of their colleagues, going into detail on the abuse committed, all the profound horror of the Catholic gulags. Then, at 6.00 Mary Wilson stopped and said, inevitably..."And now we pause for the Angelus". I nearly threw something at the radio.

I don't think that it's an enormous issue, but it is one brick in the Church-state wall that needs to be taken down.

toiletduck

I love during the Angelus debates, after the arguments Wick outlined above, they claim that's it not religious but merely a time for reflection each day. But only at times that correspond with the Catholic call to prayer.

Obviously.

But it's still not religious :rolleyes:

philologos

Antbert wrote: »

Does it really irk anyone else that the angelus plays at 6pm on a terrestrial channel? Still? In this current day?

Not particularly. I don't feel it is necessary, but I understand the reasoning behind the RTÉ putting it on.

Antbert wrote: »

What also irritates me about said Angelus (sp?) is the fact that they've made it extra multicultural. I'm all for multicultural, but not when you're saying 'yes, Ireland is multicultural now, but at least we're all Catholic'.

We all know that we aren't all Catholic. We don't need extra affirmation by taking down the Angelus?

Antbert wrote: »

I think it's just a blatant demonstration of the fact that our church and state are inseperable. I'm unsure about my thoughts on other people being religious (I don't know how worthwhile it is trying to convince someone there probably isn't a god) but I'm very much convinced that religion should have absolutely no consequence outside of personal belief.

Perhaps the State should just sell off RTÉ, then they will be able to broadcast whatever they want.

As for religion not having any consequences out of personal belief, that's quite frankly impossible. It's mere existence has an impact on society whether people like it or not. I personally disagree with the notion of religion being a private matter, because it really can't be.

toiletduck

Perhaps we should follow the Norwegian way

Muslims in the Norwegian capital Oslo have for the first time been granted the right to broadcast calls to prayer, a daily tradition in much of the Islamic world.
Six months ago the World Islamic Mission applied to the city's authorities to allow a mosque in the old town - Gamle Oslo - to call the faithful to prayer through loudspeakers.

Now the permission has been granted, on the condition that the calls - or azzan - are no louder than 60 decibels, roughly the level of normal conversation.
And at the same time the Norwegian Heathen Society - which claims there is no God - was also granted the right to broadcast its calls from a rooftop once a week, including the call: "God does not exist."

(From 2000)

Mena

I really want to bitch and moan about this, but then I love listening to the muslim call to prayer whenever (often) I'm in that part of the world. So I'll just shut up lest I be seen as hypocritical.

I just change the channel (the once in a blue moon I am actually watching RTE) if it comes on.

ChocolateSauce

Dades wrote: »

That has got to be the worst Yoda impression I've ever read.

I don't disagree....:pac:

ChocolateSauce

Mena wrote: »

I really want to bitch and moan about this, but then I love listening to the muslim call to prayer whenever (often) I'm in that part of the world. So I'll just shut up lest I be seen as hypocritical.

I just change the channel (the once in a blue moon I am actually watching RTE) if it comes on.

You aren't paying 110+ euro a year to Muslims so they can have theirs! Hardly hypocritical. Plus the Muslims ones sound better.

cruizer101

I, atheist, have no problem with the Angelus. I actually kinda like it.

It gives you a chance to catch the BBC headlines before switching over to news. Also I like the name 6,1 news as opposed to 6 news (I admit this is a bit of a silly reason but i like it anyway)

And really i have no problem, it doesn't harm anyone. At the end of the day if you don't know what it is it is meaningless, its not going to turn people into crazy catholics or anything.

I know its the state broadcasing channel, but according to CSO majority are still Catholic so why shouldn't it cater to the majority.

Also just to pick up, 'no one watches RTE' the angelus proceeds what is the best Irish news broadcast available, so i think you are a bit off with that point.

Zillah

cruizer101 wrote: »

I know its the state broadcasing channel, but according to CSO majority are still Catholic so why shouldn't it cater to the majority.

Because I am no less Irish than an Irish Catholic and I don't want my Public Service Broadcaster to favour any of the varied religions, cults and wacky fads present in our country. Perhaps you've not noticed but one of the founding principles of modern democracy is Church-State separation. Favouring one religion over others, or none, is an extremely dangerous thing to do, that's why it's not supposed to be done. We've seen how dangerous that is throughout history.

Honestly I am embarrassed by our constitution and some of our laws. Its all very well and good to make fun of the US for being the home of Creationism, but at least their constitution manages to grasp these concepts, unlike our backward little island, still struggling to get over the notion that the Pope is relevant.

ChocolateSauce

Let's not forget to mention that the Americans got their sh!t straight 222 years ago!

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

The Mad Hatter

Overblood wrote: »

Ah there's a silver lining to every cloud though. I get a good laugh out of trying to guess when it will actually end.

BONGGGGGGGGGGG!

ok it's gonna end on the next one!

.......

BONGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

Feck! Ok this one is definitely the la...BONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!


Jesus! ok, €20 that this is the last one.....

...............


............................

....................................


BIONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!

It's in groups of three with the last one longer - that's why it fools you.

I'm pretty sure it's six groups of three. Amaze your friends!

WesternNight

It's the noise that does my head in. Couldn't care less about the reason behind it. It's just the fecking noise.

CerebralCortex

WesternNight wrote: »

It's the noise that does my head in. Couldn't care less about the reason behind it. It's just the fecking noise.

When yer wan on Drive time says "and now we'll pause for the angelus", I'm like: "ah no lets carry on" and then change over to the right Hook where I should have been in the first place.

RayM

The Angelus is such an easy (and frankly pointless) target. It is less than one-third the length of the average commercial break. Seven minutes per week, featuring the ringing of a bell on television is something that no supposedly rational person should get ever upset or 'irked' about. It's not even all that religious - they ditched the religious imagery from it years ago. Just like the God-botherers who whine and protest about blasphemy on TV, Dawkins-botherers do themselves a massive disservice when they object to something so innocuous as the Angelus.

toiletduck

...they claim that's it not religious...

What do I win?

eoin5

It might be dangerous to take it away considering how many people are probably physicially addicted to it.

RayM

toiletduck wrote: »

What do I win?

You win nothing, only scorn and derision. The only people for whom the Angelus is religious, are the grannies who pause and say a load of Hail Marys for it, and the Atheists who whinge on the Internet about it. The rest of us can largely ignore it and get on with our lives. I would understand people's issues with it, if it took the form of a hymn or a minute of somebody else's beliefs being vociferously rammed down your throat, but it's just a bell ringing.

I usually just switch over or zone out when it comes on, but I have to admit that I'd be pretty pissed off if they ever decided to get rid of it purely on the basis of such spurious and petty-minded complaints.

toiletduck

You seem to be awful uppity about it. Perhaps I should share the prize with Wick.


If you really don't think that a call to prayer isn't religious... well then good luck with that.

RayM

toiletduck wrote: »

If you really don't think that a call to prayer isn't religious... well then good luck with that.

I don't know about you, but it doesn't call me to prayer. It calls me to switch over and get the headlines on BBC 1.

toiletduck

RayM wrote: »

I don't know about you, but it doesn't call me to prayer.

Did I say otherwise?

You've gotten the point though. It's a call to prayer for one particular group, mainly for Irish Catholics (I've never heard of it in other countries?). That's why people object

Kinda like the feeling you get when the BBC weather shows nothing past the Derry or Newry. It doesn't make any sense, is a minor niggle, meh. I wouldn't consider anyone giving their opinion on it a fanatic though.

kiffer

It doesn't bother me in the slightest...
Sure it would be a bit hard to hear the headlines if they tried to talk while that bell was still ringing away, it's only sensible to wait a little while...

Coriolanus

I really think that cancelling the Sunday televised mass and replacing it with reruns of Airwolf and possibly Thundercats is a more pressing issue.
Sadly, my monthly letters to the Director of Programming at RTE have been to no avail.

number10a

I have a friend who uses the Angelus to remind her to take her pill. Not everyday obviously, but if she happens to be watching RTÉ at six it helps her keep herself all lovely and infertile. :rolleyes: I'm sure the Church would love it if they knew.

RayM

toiletduck wrote: »

You've gotten the point though. It's a call to prayer for one particular group, mainly for Irish Catholics (I've never heard of it in other countries?). That's why people object

And for the rest of us... it's one minute of a bell ringing. Nothing preachy, no sign of God or Jesus anywhere. Just an inconsequential bell. Rational people don't object to that. Those who do object to it, do so for entirely petty reasons, and are no better than the miserable killjoys who protested against 'Jerry Springer: The Opera' and 'The Life of Brian', etc...

Húrin

Wicknight wrote: »

It is not a "big deal" to keep it but neither is it a big deal to get rid of it, so why don't we just get rid of it.

In any competition to see who is making the least effort, the surest way to demonstrate that it's you is to leave the status quo as is.

Zillah

RayM wrote: »

You win nothing, only scorn and derision. The only people for whom the Angelus is religious, are the grannies who pause and say a load of Hail Marys for it, and the Atheists who whinge on the Internet about it.

So you don't think it's an important issue, fine, stop posting and "get on with your life" as you say. I personally am a big fan of Church-State separation and I am also a big fan of Public Service Broadcasting. Seeing a religious tradition constantly supported by publicly funded television and radio irks me, I would like it to stop. I would like Public Service Broadcasting to act the way it was conceived.

Do you not see a hypocritical irony in getting worked up over the fact that atheists are getting work up over something you don't think is important? We're not even making you change the channel, and yet we're the ones earning your scorn.

toiletduck

RayM wrote: »

And for the rest of us... it's one minute of a bell ringing. Nothing preachy, no sign of God or Jesus anywhere. Just an inconsequential bell. Rational people don't object to that. Those who do object to it, do so for entirely petty reasons, and are no better than the miserable killjoys who protested against 'Jerry Springer: The Opera' and 'The Life of Brian', etc...

In fairness, you're the only one who's admitted that any change regarding it would piss you off. Everyone else has been pretty cool.

I'll refer to the initial posts which outlined how these debates go. It's rather hilarious alright.

Zillah

toiletduck wrote: »

What do I win?

A vague sense of frustration and irritation. Congratulations. Prizes are not refundable but they have a lifetime guarantee. If at any point in your life you lose your prize simply turn to the nearest religious person for a new one.

toiletduck

Zillah wrote: »

A vague sense of frustration and irritation. Congratulations.

Ara, the BBC weather X 2! Arghh!

Still at least I'm not denying that that has nothing to do with meteorology.... yet. Probably get labelled a Kelvin-botherer, weather fanatic or somesuch if I raise it :pac:

RayM

Zillah wrote:

So you don't think it's an important issue, fine, stop posting and "get on with your life" as you say. I personally am a big fan of Church-State separation and I am also a big fan of Public Service Broadcasting. Seeing a religious tradition constantly supported by publicly funded television and radio irks me, I would like it to stop. I would like Public Service Broadcasting to act the way it was conceived.

I'm also a big fan of Public Service Broadcasting, and - for that very reason - have no objections to the existence of the Angelus bells being played for one minute on TV or radio, for the benefit of those (minority or not) who like that kind of thing. Lots of things on television 'irk' me, but I don't think the fact that I would like to see The Afternoon Show (for instance) stopped, means that it automatically should be, particularly when there are (presumably) others out there who... I don't know... gain something from it.

Zillah wrote:

Do you not see a hypocritical irony in getting worked up over the fact that atheists are getting work up over something you don't think is important? We're not even making you change the channel, and yet we're the ones earning your scorn.

I know it's almost compulsory, when attempting to 'win' discussions on the Internet, to accuse people of hypocrisy or not recognising irony, but no - I haven't 'got worked up' or said anything remotely hypocritical. All I have said is that - despite not being a fan of the Angelus myself - I disagree with those who believe that it should be dropped.

toiletduck wrote:

In fairness, you're the only one who's admitted that any change regarding it would piss you off. Everyone else has been pretty cool.

I was under the impression (having read the posts in this thread) that its very existence pissed some people off. Seeing anything removed (or banned, censored, etc) at the behest of cranks, be they religious or atheist, certainly would piss me off, yes.

toiletduck wrote:

Still at least I'm not denying that that has nothing to do with meteorology.... yet. Probably get labelled a Kelvin-botherer, weather fanatic or somesuch if I raise it

That's kind of a pointless remark, because I didn't actually say that the Angelus has nothing to do with religion. I said that its content isn't all that religious. Which it isn't. It's just bells and people staring into space.

Zillah

RayM wrote: »

I know it's almost compulsory, when attempting to 'win' discussions on the Internet, to accuse people of hypocrisy or not recognising irony, but no - I haven't 'got worked up' or said anything remotely hypocritical. All I have said is that - despite not being a fan of the Angelus myself - I disagree with those who believe that it should be dropped.

Nor have I, now you know how it feels to simply express an opinion on something and be accused of getting worked up. I'm glad we could share this moment.

And yes, sometimes people call others hypocritical just to try and score points. Sometimes, however, I call people hypocritical when they're being hypocritical. Like you. You are being hypocritical, that is why I said you were being hypocritical.

RayM

Zillah wrote:

Nor have I, now you know how it feels to simply express an opinion on something and be accused of getting worked up. I'm glad we could share this moment.

You've been accused of getting worked up? That's just terrible. When and by whom?

Zillah wrote:

Sometimes, however, I call people hypocritical when they're being hypocritical. Like you. You are being hypocritical, that is why I said you were being hypocritical.

Alas, repeating something ad-nauseam does not make it true. However, if you would prefer to indulge in tedious and diversionary point-scoring, rather than discussing whether the Angelus plays any role in Public Service Broadcasting or is so offensive and wrong that it should be ditched/censored/banned, then please just say so.

Zillah

RayM wrote: »

You've been accused of getting worked up? That's just terrible. When and by whom?

Perhaps not those exact words, but you've accused us of "whinging", said that we have earned "scorn and derision", implied that we can't "get on with our lives" etc for simply expressing the opinion that it is not appropriate for the Angelus to be played on publicly funded broadcasts.

Alas, repeating something ad-nauseam does not make it true. However, if you would prefer to indulge in tedious and diversionary point-scoring, rather than discussing whether the Angelus plays any role in Public Service Broadcasting or is so offensive and wrong that it should be ditched/censored/banned, then please just say so.

I've already expressed my opinion on that. Playing the Angelus on publicly funded broadcasts violates separation of church and state. You are here to whinge at people on the internet about an irrelevant issue, people whom you accuse of whinging on the internet about an issue you consider irrelevant. That's pretty damn amusing.

And don't try and accuse me of point scoring, you're the one who got petty and worked up over people who dislike the Angelus.

RayM

Zillah wrote:

Perhaps not those exact words

Perhaps not indeed. The only people who I have accused of whinging are those who - in their own words - acknowledge that they are irked and embarrassed by the the Angelus being broadcast.

Zillah wrote:

I've already expressed my opinion on that. Playing the Angelus on publicly funded broadcasts violates separation of church and state.

As it is a Public Service Broadcaster, and some of the people who fund it are practising Catholics, I see no problem with devoting a paltry seven minutes per week to them (out of the 10,000 minutes of television broadcast by RTE1 every week). That is why I believe that those who, on principle, wish to deny them that are being mean-spirited and petty. And unnecessary - Walk past any Catholic church tomorrow at the beginning or end of mass, and you'll see an awful lot of grey hair and walking sticks. Do the math(s) etc... I'd rather see the Angelus eventually being abandoned because there's no longer an 'audience' for it, than immediately abandoned because a very small number of people can't - on principle - tolerate something which (in practical terms) has no bearing on their life whatsoever.

Zillah wrote:

And don't try and accuse me of point scoring, you're the one who got petty and worked up over people who dislike the Angelus.

I'm afraid you're being totally wrong ad-nauseam again. I haven't got worked up (or even irked or embarrassed) about anything. I have, however, expressed the view that, in an entirely hypothetical situation where the "down with this sort of thing" brigade won and the Angelus was scrapped, I would indeed be somewhat irked. So, you'll just have to wait until then before I 'get worked up'.

Antbert

Does it help if I say I am worked up about it? What's so wrong with getting worked up?! I get worked up about things all the time.

RayM wrote: »

As it is a Public Service Broadcaster, and some of the people who fund it are practising Catholics, I see no problem with devoting a paltry seven minutes per week to them (out of the 10,000 minutes of television broadcast by RTE1 every week). That is why I believe that those who, on principle, wish to deny them that are being mean-spirited and petty. And unnecessary - Walk past any Catholic church tomorrow at the beginning or end of mass, and you'll see an awful lot of grey hair and walking sticks. Do the math(s) etc... I'd rather see the Angelus eventually being abandoned because there's no longer an 'audience' for it, than immediately abandoned because a very small number of people can't - on principle - tolerate something which (in practical terms) has no bearing on their life whatsoever.

I do certainly see the point of 'well, what harm is it really doing. It's only helping the more weak-minded older generation'. But I do think that having some as blatant as a public service broadcast devoting time every day to a religious tradition as a demonstration of the complete lack of seperation between church and state.

Maybe the angelus in itself isn't harmful. In fact, I don't think it really is. It's more what it symbolises. I told my English cousins about this and they were absolutely shocked. It just would not fly over there.

Perhaps a more practical solution would be to wait until the older generation (say, 75+) are all dead. Then get rid of it. Even though I'm not a fan of that and think it should be immediately axed. Why can't they say a few prayers on their own?

Either that or have AC/DC's Hell's Bells playing instead.