Attitude of the yes campaign

skelliser

Have they learnt anything from the first referenda?
Once again the yes campaign is arrogant and downright patronising and spreading fear.
A few points:
Yes campaigners have been painting an image that all no voters are crazy, stupid and ignorant.

They seem to think that coir and the shinners and other minority parties represent every single no voter.

The use of celebrities to further the cause is not only patroninsing but a real concern, this is not the x factor!

Once again we are getting vague slogans like the now classic "heart of europe". What does this mean?

There is a concerted effort to instill the idea that this treaty is a referenda about our actual membership of the E.U.

discuss..


oh and before yes posters start to attack me id just like to say i voted yes the last time out.

Zuiderzee

At the launch of the Fianna Fail Yes campaign on September 2nd 2009 Mr. Cowen aptly demonstrated this arrogance by stating he did not even contemplate the rejection of the Lisbon treaty on a second attempt.

FF arrogance and distain for the electorate at this stage is unreal.
We have Donaghue flying around, costing a bloody fortune at the best hotels in Europe when there are cutbacks for schoolkids.
In Cork I believe a councillor more or less told a parent to bugger off because her district did not provide enough votes for FF

One feels that they have become so dynastic that they really have lost touch. They are entitled to rule as they see fit, and we are entitled to do what the **** we are told
Look at the front bench.
Cowen, won by-election for fathers seat after father died
Lenihan, won by-election for fathers seat after father died
Mary Coughlan, won by-election for fathers seat after father died
The Andrews cousins, Lenihans brother and Aunt etc - its like a family business.

And the Senate shuffle in place for people like Dick Roche, Mary O Rourke who are put into storage until a suitable election comes up.
The Greens also use the Senate Shuffle for people like Dierdre De Burca, who failed to win a seat in the Dail in 2002 and 2007 and failed to get elected as an MEP in 2009. Yet we are still paying her to be a senator - until the next election comes up

patrickthomas

skelliser wrote: »

Have they learnt anything from the first referenda?
Once again the yes campaign is arrogant and downright patronising and spreading fear.
A few points:
Yes campaigners have been painting an image that all no voters are crazy, stupid and ignorant.

They seem to think that coir and the shinners and other minority parties represent every single no voter.

Once again we are getting vague slogans like the now classic "heart of europe". What does this mean?

There is a concerted effort to instill the idea that this treaty is a referenda about our actual membership of the E.U.

discuss..

Yes, it is exactly the same attitude that made me examine the document and vote no last time, this time i decided to re-evaluate and find that the same old attitude prevails as last time. It is exactly the attitude the government have had towards us for years.

It is a load of bluffers who do not know what they are talking about

Thank God for a bs detector:pac:

patrickthomas

Zuiderzee wrote: »

At the launch of the Fianna Fail Yes campaign on September 2nd 2009 Mr. Cowen aptly demonstrated this arrogance by stating he did not even contemplate the rejection of the Lisbon treaty on a second attempt.

FF arrogance and distain for the electorate at this stage is unreal.
We have Donaghue flying around, costing a bloody fortune at the best hotels in Europe when there are cutbacks for schoolkids.
In Cork I believe a councillor more or less told a parent to bugger off because her district did not provide enough votes for FF

You said it

Euro_Kraut

skelliser wrote: »

They seem to think that coir and the shinners and other minority parties represent every single no voter.

So what parties do represent the No side? Aside from the ones you mentioned I can only think of the Socialists (and variants of Socialist) and the UKIP.

spank_inferno

Have to agree with the OP.
The Yes side seem so smug with their "smarter than thou" attitude.
This also eminates from Europe, where so many talking heads spoke down on the little Irish and their upstart No vote.

I get the feeling from them that the whole democratic process is beneath them and they would rather we plebs left running our lives to our "superiors".

And btw, I voted Yes to Lisbon 1.
I believe in the merits of the treaty and made my own mind up on it.

However because the people of Ireland have spoken I wont disrespect that by voting again. We lost fair and square, the failure to respect it has diminished democracy enough already.

skelliser

@EURO KRAT i dont know and i dont care tbh.

more interestingly 95?% of the political parties supported it, yet it was defeated?!
i think that says alot about the general publics attitude to the main parties

Kai

So is the main reason you are voting no to punish FF because you think they are arrogant. They are arrogant and probably all the claims you lay at them are true but is that a good reason to vote No? I would hope you would asses Lisbon on its own merits and decide based on the facts rather than on your emotional feeling towards a party that will no longer be in power after the next election.

oscarBravo

skelliser wrote: »

Yes campaigners have been painting an image that all no voters are crazy, stupid and ignorant.

I think that's patently untrue. What has actually happened is that "no" campaigners have claimed that "yes" campaigners have claimed this.

Can you actually provide a link to any "yes" campaigner ever claiming that all "no" voters are crazy, stupid and ignorant? Or have you just made a sweeping and unjustifiable claim?

skelliser

Kai wrote: »

So is the main reason you are voting no to punish FF because you think they are arrogant. They are arrogant and probably all the claims you lay at them are true but is that a good reason to vote No? I would hope you would asses Lisbon on its own merits and decide based on the facts rather than on your emotional feeling towards a party that will no longer be in power after the next election.

i suggest you re-read my post, especially the last line

Galwaybuzz

Referring to the use of celebrities joining the bandwagon , i think that they are a great way for young people to pay attention to politics.

No young person is going to pay attention to any TD or MEP because there is a bad feeling between young people and politics.Most politician are just a face they see for a few minutes on a tv screen, however if they see the likes of Bill Cullen or Micheal O Leary pop up, they are suddenly attentive!! They are more familiar with celebrities than anyone!! This is the culture we are in, so the more celebrities pop up, the better, either way it may entice the youth of today to use their vote!!!

ei.sdraob

oscarBravo wrote: »

? Or have you just made a sweeping and unjustifiable claim?

whats new?

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think that's patently untrue. What has actually happened is that "no" campaigners have claimed that "yes" campaigners have claimed this.

this thread is a bait for them to get such a material by making some people angry

there has been a few of such bait threads lately

Robbo

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think that's patently untrue. What has actually happened is that "no" campaigners have claimed that "yes" campaigners have claimed this.

Can you actually provide a link to any "yes" campaigner ever claiming that all "no" voters are crazy, stupid and ignorant? Or have you just made a sweeping and unjustifiable claim?

Michael O'Leary's "headbangers" dig probably didn't help.

I voted yes last time and will again but I really think this one is lost because of the sheer vagueness of the Yes campaign. No one seems to have copped on that when you spend all your time speaking in vague platitudes and putting out the fires that that others lit (it seems workers rights and misrepresentation of QMV are the new abortion and corporate tax), you can't effectively communicate the benefits of the Treaty.

skelliser

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think that's patently untrue. What has actually happened is that "no" campaigners have claimed that "yes" campaigners have claimed this.

Can you actually provide a link to any "yes" campaigner ever claiming that all "no" voters are crazy, stupid and ignorant? Or have you just made a sweeping and unjustifiable claim?

no obviously i cant, im talking about attitudes, not specific statements that may have been made.
case in point michael o learys sweeping statement!
the "heart of europe" slogan isnt that not a sweeping and unjustifiable claim?

W1ct0ry

Voting No because of Fianna Fail is what happened last time. And hopefully people will not do it again. This is an EU referendum what Finna Fail have to say about it means nothing.

If Ireland get kicked out of Europe it is the end of this country. And since all anyone does is complain about the stupid things the Irish government do, I dont see how giving some power to the EU is a bad thing.

Voting yes to this will have no noticeable effect on the running of our country. Voting No will have a devastating effect.

Stop voting for petty reasons. And vote on the treaty.

Euro_Kraut

skelliser wrote: »

@EURO KRAT i dont know and i dont care tbh.

Thanks. Its great to see you coming along to have a debate. Its odd that you would start a thread about something the don't care about and (as you have admitted) don't know about.

King of Kings

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

So what parties do represent the No side? Aside from the ones you mentioned I can only think of the Socialists (and variants of Socialist) and the UKIP.

Since you mention the UKIP - do the conservatives in the UK not oppose it. If cameron was PM Lisbon would be defunct.

Celebrities?
What does robbie keane know - he lives in london and is paid more than only a handful of the the electorate here. I doubt he understands the needs of the average punter.
Good for him to vote yes but his bastion of intellect won't sway my no vote.

ei.sdraob

King of Kings wrote: »

Since you mention the UKIP - do the conservatives in the UK not oppose it. If cameron was PM Lisbon would be defunct.

Celebrities?
What does robbie keane know - he lives in london and is paid more than only a handful of the the electorate here. I doubt he understands the needs of the average punter.
Good for him to vote yes but his bastion of intellect won't sway my no vote.

list which parties are openly opposed and campaigning for a NO

let me begin

* Sinn Fein
* Coir
* Socialists
* UKIP

who else?

skelliser

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Thanks. Its great to see you coming along to have a debate. Its odd that you would start a thread about something the don't care about and (as you have admitted) don't know about.

sorry i didnt mean to be abrupt
i just dont think its relevent to this topic which is about the attitude of the yes campaign.

And again i voted yes, a few other posters voted yes and agree with my sentiments so this is not bait for the no side as someone has suggested

Zuiderzee

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think that's patently untrue. What has actually happened is that "no" campaigners have claimed that "yes" campaigners have claimed this.

Can you actually provide a link to any "yes" campaigner ever claiming that all "no" voters are crazy, stupid and ignorant? Or have you just made a sweeping and unjustifiable claim?

Your taking the piss right??? Headbangers, economic illiterates, COIRs fellow travellers!!!!
Here, and with a lot of the media the No campaign are portrayed as nutbags or extremists, not least by open attacks by O Leary Given that he dismissed the No voters last as "economically illiterate, unscrupulous dole scroungers" or snide asides on oppositon funding by Dick Roche.

But this is an old, old tactic, to impugn and ridicule dissent and opposition with the generation of fear of financial ruin will be the main driving factors used by FF to try and push this through.

Try to stop being such a pedant man, if you want a sweeping statement from the Yes side, just search for O Leary and Lisbon

ei.sdraob

Zuiderzee wrote: »

COIRs fellow travellers!!!!

i presume you are referring to this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61911304&postcount=1

then you will notice that I dont take lightly to that being said 2 posts later
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61911471&postcount=3

and a moderator steps in later on
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61913975&postcount=15

Zuiderzee

ei.sdraob wrote: »

list which parties are openly opposed and campaigning for a NO

let me begin

* Sinn Fein
* Coir
* Socialists
* UKIP

who else?

I just love the way COIR, SF and Socialists again get banged in together.

As for UKIP, when the Yes camp call for EU solidarity, unity, the EU working together the moment a UK party says anything against their view suddenly the tricolour gets run up and nationalism becomes popular again.
UKIP are a British party, not Irish

FYI Tony Benn, Labour legend is campaigning against the Lisbon referendum, and will be coming to Dublin on the 9th to give a speech.

Look at it this way, others have commented on our No vote like the Germans and the French and DEstaing was so furious he wanted us to rerun in April or May.
Berliosconi and his neo-fascist allies would ratify this treaty.

Dont lump everyone in the one basket just cause they say No, over 50% of the Irish electorate said no last time

Bob_Harris

W1ct0ry wrote: »

Voting No will have a devastating effect.

No it won't. In fact, if we vote No, nothing happens, as we still live under the previous treaties.

anonymous_joe

Zuiderzee wrote: »

I just love the way COIR, SF and Socialists again get banged in together.

As for UKIP, when the Yes camp call for EU solidarity, unity, the EU working together the moment a UK party says anything against their view suddenly the tricolour gets run up and nationalism becomes popular again.
UKIP are a British party, not Irish

FYI Tony Benn, Labour legend is campaigning against the Lisbon referendum, and will be coming to Dublin on the 9th to give a speech.

Look at it this way, others have commented on our No vote like the Germans and the French and DEstaing was so furious he wanted us to rerun in April or May.
Berliosconi and his neo-fascist allies would ratify this treaty.

Dont lump everyone in the one basket just cause they say No, over 50% of the Irish electorate said no last time

Berlusconi's significantly further left than Cóir and UKIP.

Cut the bullshít and show some honesty for a change. If you're going to accuse a centre-right leader of being a neo-fascist, at least have the fúcking courage to come out and say that of the four parties people can list that support a No, one isn't even Irish, and two are more right-wing than Berlusconi could ever be.

patrickthomas

Robbo wrote: »

Michael O'Leary's "headbangers" dig probably didn't help.

I voted yes last time and will again but I really think this one is lost because of the sheer vagueness of the Yes campaign. No one seems to have copped on that when you spend all your time speaking in vague platitudes and putting out the fires that that others lit (it seems workers rights and misrepresentation of QMV are the new abortion and corporate tax), you can't effectively communicate the benefits of the Treaty.

Well said and i voted No last time, was seriously thinking of voting yes this time but thanks to Scofflaws "reasons" for voting yes i am changing my mind rapidly. There is a complete lack of conviction on the yes side that they know what they are voting for.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

ei.sdraob

Zuiderzee wrote: »

I just love the way COIR, SF and Socialists again get banged in together.

do you have a different list of parties on the NO side of the campaign?

yes it is amusing having only far right and far left parties come together, just shows that when you go out far enough on the fringe you come around full circle

Zuiderzee wrote: »

I just love the way COIR, SF and Socialists again get banged in together.

As for UKIP, when the Yes camp call for EU solidarity, unity, the EU working together the moment a UK party says anything against their view suddenly the tricolour gets run up and nationalism becomes popular again.
UKIP are a British party, not Irish

Then what are they doing sending leaflets to Irish households?

dont you find it a tiny bit ironic a party that insists it doesnt like interference in internal affairs from EU turns around and interferes in affairs of another country?

and lets not forget that the main policy of UKIP is to leave the EU
so much for the NO campaigners calling themselves "Pro EU"

Zuiderzee wrote: »

over 50% of the Irish electorate said no last time

~25% actually the turnout was about ~50% of electorate, please get the figures straight

Stark

patrickthomas wrote:

Well said and i voted No last time, was seriously thinking of voting yes this time but thanks to Scofflaws "reasons" for voting yes i am changing my mind rapidly. There is a complete lack of conviction on the yes side that they know what they are voting for.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

To be honest, I don't think you ever had intention of voting Yes, you just wanted to play games with people (how's the broken refresh button today?) but at least we got an actual discussion on the content of the treaty out of it.

patrickthomas

ei.sdraob wrote: »

~25% actually the turnout was about ~50% of electorate, please get the figures straight

This really gets me hot under the collar, Who do you think you are talking to when you make a statement like this? Do you think we do not understand percentage points. I am shocked when i see this attitude from the yes side, how dare you?

patrickthomas

Stark wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think you ever had intention of voting Yes, you just wanted to play games with people (how's the broken refresh button today?) but at least we got an actual discussion on the content of the treaty out of it.

You knew that Scofflaw would lose credibility and I would change my mind, fair dues, does not show much confidence. The refresh button is not the problem i was having last night, I am on wireless modem and it stops when it rains, thank you wonderful government.

All we got was a load of platitudes and downtalking, zero conviction and what is obviously a group following instructions.

Zuiderzee

W1ct0ry wrote: »

Voting No because of Fianna Fail is what happened last time. And hopefully people will not do it again. This is an EU referendum what Finna Fail have to say about it means nothing.

FF are part the Government of this state.

FF are the people who are putting this referendum to the people for a second time

FF have launched a campaign (as have others) to get us to do as we are told.
So whatever you say on the matter, they obviously feel what they have to say is important, so it is open to debate as to whether they have the ability to make a decision.
And we have the right to dismiss their opinion, and dissent and disagree with a failing government. I would not take their advice to buy a rock, let alone vote on a treaty.

W1ct0ry wrote: »

If Ireland get kicked out of Europe it is the end of this country. And since all anyone does is complain about the stupid things the Irish government do, I dont see how giving some power to the EU is a bad thing.
Voting yes to this will have no noticeable effect on the running of our country. Voting No will have a devastating effect.

Stop voting for petty reasons. And vote on the treaty.

I am voting on the treaty, and I am most concerned about workers rights.
Voting Yes will make a large difference, we are told it is great for Europe etc.

Essentially its an attitude 'look, your so unimportant this will never affect you, and you dont need to understand it, so be a good little sheep, and vote the way we tell you, trust us, we have f~~ked everything else so badly we have to get at least one right'

Giving power to an external body for whom I cannot vote makes me very uncomfortable.

Things do change, laws like the UK's 2005 Law and order act have changed a lot of things, even though 'normal' people were assured it would not changed their lives, it has. Check out 'Taking Liberties' on Youtube.

We will not get kicked out of the EU if we vote No, that is a lie.

ei.sdraob

patrickthomas wrote: »

This really gets me hot under the collar, Who do you think you are talking to when you make a statement like this? Do you think we do not understand percentage points. I am shocked when i see this attitude from the yes side, how dare you?

lets quote what he said word for word

Zuiderzee wrote: »

over 50% of the Irish electorate said no last time

lets lookup the definition of electorate

electorate
Noun
1. all the people in an area or country who have the right to vote in an election

how many people in Ireland who have the right to vote voted in the last referendum?

53.13%

how many of these people voted NO?

53.20%


now please so the maths and please do tell us what % of the electorate voted NO

:rolleyes:


im sick of the NO side telling lies, not backing it up with references and ignoring basic facts

skelliser

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes it is amusing having only far right and far left parties come together, just shows that when you go out far enough on the fringe you come around full circle

Hang on now, and what do the yes parties represent! fg/ff/lab

ei.sdraob wrote: »

~25% actually the turnout was about ~50% of electorate, please get the figures straight

this old adage, turnout is neither here nor there, if people cant be bothered to vote will then thats tough, the people spoke, get over it, i accepted it and i voted yes

Stark

skelliser wrote: »

this old adage, turnout is neither here nor there, if people cant be bothered to vote will then thats tough, the people spoke, get over it, i accepted it and i voted yes

Well it's not the same thing as saying the majority of the electorate voted for something. Unfortunately as a rule of thumb, 20% of the electorate will always vote against something in order to vote against the established order (Hence the pundits saying we needed at least 40% turnout in order for the Yes vote to pass). You're then facing a war against apathy in order to get the remaining 80% out to vote. A lot of people weren't bothered voting Yes because no-one could give them a reason that was sexy enough for them to take to the polls. Not to mention the students who didn't bother changing their registered voting address so they could vote while they were in college. Hopefully having the vote on a Friday this time round will mean greater turnout from the colleges.

ei.sdraob

skelliser wrote: »

Hang on now, and what do the yes parties represent! fg/ff/lab

center right for the first 2 (in fact theres feck all difference between ff and fg)
and center left for lab

my political views fall right between lab and fg

skelliser wrote: »

this old adage, turnout is neither here nor there, if people cant be bothered to vote will then thats tough, the people spoke, get over it, i accepted it and i voted yes

he said 50% of the electorate

which is a clear lie

unless the rules of basic mathematics are different in your universe

skelliser

My point is the turnout doesnt matter, this is the system we have and by and large it works. The people spoke, maybe not all off them but they had there chance and decided not to take it.
Thats neither the fault of the yes or no campaigns.


This is completly irrelevent.

patrickthomas

ei.sdraob wrote: »

im sick of the NO side telling lies, not backing it up with references and ignoring basic facts

Be sick, be very very sick, there is people on the no side telling lies, it's ireland get over it, it is how this country has been run for decades, on lies, and be wrong again, this yes argument is not working and falling apart as I watch.

Do you seriously think that at this stage we can not tell the bs from the truth, we have had enough of it for long enough.

Stark

patrickthomas wrote: »

Be sick, be very very sick, there is people on the no side telling lies, it's ireland get over it, it is how this country has been run for decades, on lies, and be wrong again, this yes argument is not working and falling apart as I watch.

Do you seriously think that at this stage we can not tell the bs from the truth, we have had enough of it for long enough.

Well you weren't sure whether the abortion and prostitution myth was bs or truth. Now while you might have taken the time to ask questions, what about your friend who was spreading the bs? There will be many people this time round as there were last time round who will vote based on a piece of fiction.

Zuiderzee

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes it is amusing having only far right and far left parties come together, just shows that when you go out far enough on the fringe you come around full circle

Very true, and I'm rapidly being bunged in with them. And as one goes to the centre the differences dissappear.
Labour I can get, but the difference between FF and FG, dont get it.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Then what are they doing sending leaflets to Irish households?
dont you find it a tiny bit ironic a party that insists it doesnt like interference in internal affairs from EU turns around and interferes in affairs of another country?

Absolutley, they should not involve themselves in our politics, and neither should German ambassadors or French Presidents, current or former.
The last English people we ever listened to were St. Patrick and Jack Charlton.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

~25% actually the turnout was about ~50% of electorate, please get the figures straight

Point taken. More than half the people who bothered their ass' and got out and voted, rejected the Lisbon Treaty.
But apathy is to the Governments advantage, thats why we never see them doing anything to improve participation.

The government have lost, and unlike Ganley, they refuse to take No for an answer

ei.sdraob

patrickthomas wrote: »

Do you seriously think that at this stage we can not tell the bs from the truth, we have had enough of it for long enough.

judging by the amounts of people who voted for Declan Ganley (and lets not forget Dana)

or for that matter judging by the fact that FF got reelected

just highlights the sad state of political awareness in the electorate and people not being able to tell bs from truth

My point is the turnout doesnt matter, this is the system we have and by and large it works. The people spoke, maybe not all off them but they had there chance and decided not to take it.
Thats neither the fault of the yes or no campaigns.


This is completly irrelevent.

please not that ZZ said "50 % of electorate" and i nailed him for that

yes the system has worked perfectly

* the people have spoken
* the matter went back to EU
* issues relevant to the people like commissioner were addressed
* we are being asked again to vote on treaty + changes

now please explain to us how the above event are any way undemocratic?

Zuiderzee

ei.sdraob wrote: »

he said 50% of the electorate

Just saw this posting after typing in the last one.
I did not lie, so dont accuse me of that, what I wanted to say was that more than half of those who bothered to vote (i.e. the electorate) said No.

But as usual, we have gone off on a tangent, showing as always there are Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

I dont think you need to be so pedantic all the time, we already have one poster who is an expert at that - so please chill

ei.sdraob

Zuiderzee wrote: »

The government have lost, and unlike Ganley, they refuse to take No for an answer

the Government was elected by the people (in national elections)

Declan Ganley was not elected by the people (in eu elections)

see the difference? apples and oranges

the people "have spoken" and he lost, sweet irony

ChocolateSauce

Among the DE socio-economic group, 65% voted no. This is the least educated level of society. Among the AB group, 64% voted yes. This is the most highly educated grouping.

The main reason cited for voting No was ‘lack of knowledge/information/ understanding’.

‘No’ voters were far more likely to believe that erosion of Irish neutrality, end of control over abortion and conscription to a European army were part of the Lisbon Treaty; they weren't.

Loss of Commissioner was also a common concern on the No side. Focus groups revealed that many people believed that the loss of a Commissioner would mean Ireland would have no voice in Europe at all. They didn't even understand what the Commissioner does or how the EU works.

In short, the empirical evidence strongly suggests that people who are less well educated generally and specifically ignorant of the treaty are far more likely to vote no than people who are well educated and understand what the treaty will do.

patrickthomas

Stark wrote: »

Well you weren't sure whether the abortion and prostitution myth was bs or truth. Now while you might have taken the time to ask questions, what about your friend who was spreading the bs? There will be many people this time round as there were last time round who will vote based on a piece of fiction.

Stark, Even more so than last time people from both sides will vote yes and no for the wrong reasons.

This has now for a whole lot of people becoming a vote on the government and they know it, they have disgraced us behaving like Zimbabwean despots driving around in stretch limos in europe, an embarrassment! an infrastructure lagging behind, an ex-taiosach corrupt again, jesus the list just goes on and on and on......

I think the people of the eu if they really give a damm about us will forgive us for trying to remove a corrupt and incompentant government. if the eu is all about us helping each other than they will understand that an idiot swanning around europe on taxpayers money is not a reflection of what i am or stand for.

skelliser

ei.sdraob wrote: »

now please explain to us how the above event are any way undemocratic?

i dont need to explain anything! nobody said it was undemocratic!
who said it was undemocratic?!

ei.sdraob

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Just saw this posting after typing in the last one.
I did not lie, so dont accuse me of that, what I wanted to say was that more than half of those who bothered to vote (i.e. the electorate) said No.

let me post again exactly what you said

Zuiderzee wrote: »

over 50% of the Irish electorate said no last time

note the word electorate

you did not say "voters"
you did not say "those who bothered to vote"

theres quite a difference when it comes to politics


you got caught with your pants down admit it, and whats funny is how some posters jumped on it after it, defending an obvious(deliberate?) **** up

Zuiderzee wrote: »

But as usual, we have gone off on a tangent, showing as always there are Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

I dont think you need to be so pedantic all the time, we already have one poster who is an expert at that - so please chill

no one went on a tangent, the record has to be set straight, its little lies like that which i will not allow to pass as they add up to paint a picture which is different from reality

skelliser

ei.sdraob i think you need to get back on topic, if you want to discuss turnout and the electorate i think you should start your own thread.

patrickthomas

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Among the DE socio-economic group, 65% voted no. This is the least educated level of society. Among the AB group, 64% voted yes. This is the most highly educated grouping.

The main reason cited for voting No was ‘lack of knowledge/information/ understanding’.

‘No’ voters were far more likely to believe that erosion of Irish neutrality, end of control over abortion and conscription to a European army were part of the Lisbon Treaty; they weren't.

Loss of Commissioner was also a common concern on the No side. Focus groups revealed that many people believed that the loss of a Commissioner would mean Ireland would have no voice in Europe at all. They didn't even understand what the Commissioner does or how the EU works.

In short, the empirical evidence strongly suggests that people who are less well educated generally and specifically ignorant of the treaty are far more likely to vote no than people who are well educated and understand what the treaty will do.

Can you provide a link for this please?

eightyfish

skelliser wrote: »

Yes campaigners have been painting an image that all no voters are crazy, stupid and ignorant.

And? SF, Libertas, COIR, etc. All crazy, stupid and ignorant IMO. Who else has posters up?

All the no side can say is "it's the same treaty" and "don't trust politicians". Of course it's the same treaty! The reason they didn't have to change the treaty to accommodate the fears of the no voters last time (abortion, conscription, taxes) is because they weren't even in the thing.

And now we have the benefit of a permanent commissioner on top of that.

Stark

patrickthomas wrote: »

I think the people of the eu if they really give a damm about us will forgive us for trying to remove a corrupt and incompentant government. if the eu is all about us helping each other than they will understand that an idiot swanning around europe on taxpayers money is not a reflection of what i am or stand for.

Actually they won't. Ireland has spent years building up goodwill that has served us well at the EU negotiating table. I don't think the EU are being bullies; they have tried to respect our genuine concerns and work amendments based on our fears into the guarantees on Lisbon. However, if we turn around and vote no and tell them the reason is we're playing parochial politics and want to spite our home government, then we lose a portion of that goodwill that we've worked hard to achieve. Is there anything in the Treaty that makes you feel that's a worthwhile trade-off?

W1ct0ry

Bob_Harris wrote: »

No it won't. In fact, if we vote No, nothing happens, as we still live under the previous treaties.

This treaty is going through, with or without Ireland. Its not like we contribute anything to the EU. All we do is take its money.

We have an external debt of $1,841,000,000,000,000 The highest amount per person of any country in the world(bar monaco for some reason). I dont think the EU will cry when they kick us out.

We are complaining that this treaty will reduce our vote in Europe, it should, we are a tiny country with no economic or military power.

ei.sdraob

skelliser wrote: »

i dont need to explain anything! nobody said it was undemocratic!
who said it was undemocratic?!

why the NO side of course... over and over we get posts like that


http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055637882&highlight=undemocratic


http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61053565&postcount=12

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61265286&postcount=3

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61266009&postcount=14

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61902582&postcount=1913


theres so many other examples that im not gonna waste anymore time