VRT to be Abolished?

Cars&cars

Was speaking with a staff member in the vrt office today and we were chatting about VRT and I was told there is some speculation around the inner grapevine that VRT will be abolished in the January budget with a plan to move across to a tax on fuel.

Anyone got any on this?

My view is the only way they could do it is a slow phase out over 5 years, otherwise it would devalue all the cars in Ireland in one swoop, which is not wise economically (also I imagine the EU are coming down hard on them, no Yes vote of Lisbon and then a tax that clearly circumvents the Treaty of Rome, many complaints from citizens and the increasingly unpopular image for the EU).

If VRT figures are falling, it may reach a point whereby it costs more to administer VRT compared with the revenue generated from it: lets say €500 million a year to run and then €500 million VRT, this figure might even go into the negative (I don’t have exact figures I’m just speculating based on previous years figures). But if you take away VRT, you are surely going to put a few thousand civil servants out of work and add to the unemployment figures, however I imagine many of them could be reassigned to more hard pressed areas of the civil service with staff shortages. Either way, the abolition of VRT raises some interesting dilemmas and questions.

mike65

Nah, won't happen. Was a proposal as part of some green intitiative, rebalancing the tax burden etc. But I really can't see it flying at the moment. The time to do it was during the boom not now.

EPM

Not this again:(

afatbollix

HA

the government getting rid of tax... i don't think so.. they will bring in the tax on fuel anyway...

( the UK don't have vrt as they say they get the tax though petrol sale tax.. yet there petrol is about the same price as ours.. so we would be fooked if the put it on the petrol )

Noffles

afatbollix wrote: »

HA

the government getting rid of tax... i don't think so.. they will bring in the tax on fuel anyway...

( the UK don't have vrt as they say they get the tax though petrol sale tax.. yet there petrol is about the same price as ours.. so we would be fooked if the put it on the petrol )

This is a very good point, anyone care to explain it properly, why do the UK have fuel almost the same price as us yet the irish government say they have cheap fuel because of vrt... robbing fat ****s!

peasant

afatbollix wrote: »

HA

the government getting rid of tax... i don't think so.. they will bring in the tax on fuel anyway...

You're obviously not a politician

what they are going to do is:

- put an additional tax on fuel (and energy while they're at it) and call it a "carbon tax"

- abolish VRT (and make a biiiig song and dance about it)

- and then put another tax on fuel and call it the replacement for the VRT


or maybe I'm just cynical

afatbollix

carbon tax is a load of ****!!!!

there shouldn't be any tax on carbon fibre :pac:

Hristos

abolish VRT?? I should just get a cheap banger then, rather than spending 8k for an 05 Focus that will start at 12k new without VRT...

Furp

Supposedly there is a proposal to abolish VRT in the Commission on Taxation report McCarthy (Bord Snip Nua), I guess we will know next Monday when it is published.

An earlier draft of the report, which nonetheless contains its main recommendations, was reported widely in the media over the weekend. A recommendation to abolish vehicle registration tax (VRT) and replace it with congestion charges or increased petrol prices may prove controversial.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0827/breaking29.html

Robbo

Furp wrote: »

Supposedly there is a proposal to abolish VRT in the McCarty Report (Bord Snip Nua), I guess we will know next Monday when it is published.



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0827/breaking29.html

That's the Commission on Taxation report, not McCarthy. The sentiment of the Commission report is that "lumpy" taxes like Stamp Duty and VRT should be phased out in favour of taxes that provide a less fickle, more steady income.

You can then dress this up in green clothes, gain the popularity of saying you're abolishing VRT and try and stem the damage at the polling box.

Corben Dallas

VRT should have been binned when the EU common trade agreement/Euro came in. Ireland still has its own 'Import Tax' by another name, which is illegal under EU law.

VRT should be canned straight away, and should be exactly as its describition says ie. a licence for issueing a licence plate and number unique to an Irish Car. It should cost no more than € 250>> like in the UK.

VRT should not replaced by a 'Green/Carbon Bull****e' tax on fuel, the Govenment already gets a massive hit off every litre of fuel sold on the forecourts.(& doesnt need another one)

The Irish Goverment have been ripping us off for decades and it should be discontinued immediately. Either that or the EU should fine the goverment a few billion for allowing an illegal import tax.

BTW Ireland has the cheapest cars in europe. (>Thats before the government adds/takes its massive VRT cut out of your pocket)

R.O.R

Corben Dallas wrote: »

VRT should have been binned when the EU common trade agreement/Euro came in. Ireland still has its own 'Import Tax' by another name, which is illegal under EU law.

VRT should be canned straight away, and should be exactly as its describition says ie. a licence for issueing a licence plate and number unique to an Irish Car. It should cost no more than € 250>> like in the UK.

VRT should not replaced by a 'Green/Carbon Bull****e' tax on fuel, the Govenment already gets a massive hit off every litre of fuel sold on the forecourts.(& doesnt need another one)

The Irish Goverment have been ripping us off for decades and it should be discontinued immediately. Either that or the EU should fine the goverment a few billion for allowing an illegal import tax.

BTW Ireland has the cheapest cars in europe. (>Thats before the government adds/takes its massive VRT cut out of your pocket)

And replace it with much higher income tax rates? No thanks, I'll let other pay the big chunk of VRT on new cars for me, and just pay an inflated used value - but continue to pay a reasonable level of income tax on a monthly basis.

magoo1234

not a hope in jeebus, too much easy money being made:P

EPM

We'll still be stung if they abolish it. So they charge extra on fuel - the manufacturers will add something on to RRP's as our pre-tax prices are already amongst the lowest in Europe

JayeL

Off-topic, but maybe a reduced VRT of €250 or so to include your plate could also end the ridiculous situation in this country, where we have all sorts of crazy fonts, logos and colours on our number plates.

Honestly, I can think of no other country where there's such widespread (and unpunished) disregard for the standard identifying mark on a vehicle. Indeed, why can't the guards whip them off the car as things stand??

A proper VRT system, where the government gets involved in the actual production of number plates, would end this crap fairly quickly.

patftrears

1. Private sales people selling their second hand cars, does nothing for the government. Abolishing VRT will hit the value of second hand cars, but the government don't care as it doesn't cost them anything.

2. They loose VRT, but if cars are cheaper, people will buy more new cars (cheap CO2 tax rates) which will bring in VAT revenue and save jobs in the garages.
It will stop people buying in the UK again save jobs keep money in Ireland.

3. They will hike the fuel price to counter act VRT tax. This is consistnet income for life, not depending on people having to buy car. It will affect everyone and bring in a massive amounts of revenue.

smash

I think this is the 4th thread about this subject now.

Corben Dallas wrote: »

VRT should have been binned when the EU common trade agreement/Euro came in. Ireland still has its own 'Import Tax' by another name, which is illegal under EU law.

It's not illegal and it's not an import tax, it's a registration tax.

Corben Dallas wrote: »

VRT should not replaced by a 'Green/Carbon Bull****e' tax on fuel, the Govenment already gets a massive hit off every litre of fuel sold on the forecourts.(& doesnt need another one)

The country is screwed, we need money.

Corben Dallas wrote: »

The Irish Goverment have been ripping us off for decades and it should be discontinued immediately. Either that or the EU should fine the goverment a few billion for allowing an illegal import tax.

Again, it's not illegal.

Corben Dallas wrote: »

BTW Ireland has the cheapest cars in europe. (>Thats before the government adds/takes its massive VRT cut out of your pocket)

Really? Then why are BMW buying new cars from the UK instead of from BMW Germany?

I'll leave this with the post I posted in the last thread about this subject...

steve06 wrote: »

Realistically the government don't care about car buyers. The country is screwed and by taking VRT out of the scene and putting extra taxes on fuel then the government makes money off a car for as long as it's on the road, no matter how many times the car changes hands! This is a lot more effective than a once off payment.

the motor industry say they will suffer but they're not making much at the moment anyway, and within a few years everyone will be getting much better deals on cars and the government can start making money immediately!

-Chris-

THERE WILL BE NO DISCUSSION OF WHETHER VRT IS LEGAL OR NOT IN THIS THREAD.

We've heard it all before....

Robbo

Corben Dallas wrote: »

VRT should have been binned when the EU common trade agreement/Euro came in. Ireland still has its own 'Import Tax' by another name, which is illegal under EU law.

VRT should be canned straight away, and should be exactly as its describition says ie. a licence for issueing a licence plate and number unique to an Irish Car. It should cost no more than € 250>> like in the UK.

VRT should not replaced by a 'Green/Carbon Bull****e' tax on fuel, the Govenment already gets a massive hit off every litre of fuel sold on the forecourts.(& doesnt need another one)

The Irish Goverment have been ripping us off for decades and it should be discontinued immediately. Either that or the EU should fine the goverment a few billion for allowing an illegal import tax.

BTW Ireland has the cheapest cars in europe. (>Thats before the government adds/takes its massive VRT cut out of your pocket)

In how many VRT threads do you need to be put right on this before the message will get in?

If you're so sure of the illegality of VRT under European law, how come you aren't rushing off to the ECJ waving your well thumbed copy of Blackstone's EU Legislation in the air?

-Chris-

Robbo wrote: »

In how many VRT threads do you need to be put right on this before the message will get in?

If you're so sure of the illegality of VRT under European law, how come you aren't rushing off to the ECJ waving your well thumbed copy of Blackstone's EU Legislation in the air?

*Ahem*


Next person to comment on VRT's legality gets infracted...

pablosd

-Chris- wrote: »

*Ahem*


Next person to comment on VRT's legality gets infracted...

everybody has their opinion and people bring valuable information about vrt taxation and eu legislation, you cant infract everyone you like jst because you dnt like it and coz u are moderator, if you dont want to hear about it don't enter this thread its simple,

Zube

pablosd wrote: »

you cant infract everyone you like

All together; "Oh, yes he can!"

smash

pablosd wrote: »

everybody has their opinion and people bring valuable information about vrt taxation and eu legislation

People's opinions about vrt taxation and eu legislation are wrong in this case... lets move on!

-Chris-

pablosd wrote: »

everybody has their opinion and people bring valuable information about vrt taxation and eu legislation, you cant infract everyone you like jst because you dnt like it and coz u are moderator, if you dont want to hear about it don't enter this thread its simple,

Pablosd infracted for back seat modding.


Whether VRT is legal or not is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of law.

We've been around and around the circular arguement that some people think it's illegal and then someone else posts a link to some statute or other.

I'm trying to keep this thread out of the quagmire.

mtechdrukan

-Chris- wrote: »

Pablosd infracted for back seat modding.

why did you infract him?? he didnt do anything, you could gave him a warning at least,
i feel that moderators have to much power these days, you cant even question matters of our goverment, all we are supposed to talk now about 1.2 vauxhall corsas with broken light bulb replacements??

-Chris-

mtechdrukan wrote: »

why did you infract him?? he didnt do anything, you could gave him a warning at least,
i feel that moderators have to much power these days, you cant even question matters of our goverment, all we are supposed to talk now about 1.2 vauxhall corsas with broken light bulb replacements??

FFS, I infracted him for back seat modding.

If you have a problem with a mods decision, you take it to PM, you don't berate them on thread.

If you continue with this line of questioning in this thread, you'll be infracted too.

pablosd

mtechdrukan wrote: »

why did you infract him?? he didnt do anything, you could gave him a warning at least,
i feel that moderators have to much power these days, you cant even question matters of our goverment, all we are supposed to talk now about 1.2 vauxhall corsas with broken light bulb replacements??

thanks for support mtech, but dont bother arguing with them, you can't win,

cantdecide

VRT rant thread??

-Chris-

pablosd wrote: »

thanks for support mtech, but dont bother arguing with them, you can't win,

Take a week off Pablosd.


Any issues with modding should be taken to PM.
If you don't like the reasoning, either PM KBannon (he's the category mod) or start a feedback thread.

Cars&cars

http://www.traffictechnologytoday.com/news.php?NewsID=15374

The importance of VRT has dropped over the last six months. Net VRT receipts in the first half of the year amounted to US$385 million (€269 million), compared to US$1.2 billion (€866 million) for the same period last year, according to Department of Finance figures.

..asI susptected with about 500 million per year and falling, and the EUs plan to bring in EU legislation to abolish VRT, the Irish Government [FONT=&quot]know the game is up[/FONT]

niceirishfella

This thread speaks the truth.
The speculation I got was the you'll get your newly imported car documented/tested etc at the NCT centre.
The gov will happily abolish VRT if they can get more money in the door through a fuel levy.
They don't give a bollix about devaluing cars any more and the real possibility that more dealers will go to the wall.
They knew this would happen when the introduced the VRT tax band changes and still did it. This shower have no conscience.

galwaytt

Robbo wrote: »

That's ...The sentiment of the Commission report is that "lumpy" taxes like Stamp Duty and VRT should be phased out in favour of taxes that provide a less fickle, more steady income. .

...or, the Irish Solution: a fickle, steady "lumpy" - aka, big - tax........:rolleyes:

-Chris- wrote: »

..infracted for back seat modding.

...in a Motor's forum - this is most unfair !! Some of us have cars with no back seats ! - I feel this is most discriminatory against Eligible Drivers of Fine 2-seaters.........:p


(I'll get my coat.........:D

Kotek Besar

Ok I'm confused, is VRT legal or illegal?

galwaytt

Oh Oh

-Chris-

Thread locked pending mod discussion


Update: Thread reopened


We've had numerous threads before about whether VRT is legal or not. They always end up the same way.

This isn't a thread about that, if I understand the OP correctly this is a thread about if VRT will be abolished, what would the effect be, is it likely etc. (OP, correct me if I'm wrong).

Any posts about the legality of VRT will be edited and the poster will be given a short holiday.

Please try and keep this (relatively) on-topic.

Riskymove

so is VRT le......just kidding!

anyways...

Basically the Commission on Taxation is saying that the State should move away from purchase taxs (e.g. VRT, stamp duty) which bring in lots when people are buying lots (i.e. a short boom period) and very little when they are not (the rest of history)

just like having a Property tax on all houses (new and old) instead of stamp duty when you buy house...we will have some sort of tax for owning a car (new or old)...perhaps we could call this a "motor tax"??

yes, you see the problem right...we are already paying a tax for owning a car as well as VRT when buying one new.

therefore if VRT is abolished and they need something to replace it the options are either to increase the existing motor tax or introduce a further tax (perhaps on fuel usage, but thats more likely as a carbon tax)

Biro

They could have a change of ownership tax or something, to the tune of €100 or there abouts, whether you're buying new or 2nd hand, here or abroad.
Abolishing VRT will leave some people up the creak for sure, but stringing it out over 5 years will prolong the pain. If they're doing it they should just do it and have it done with.

Riskymove

Biro wrote: »

Abolishing VRT will leave some people up the creak for sure, but stringing it out over 5 years will prolong the pain. If they're doing it they should just do it and have it done with.

agreed, delaying the motor tax changes for 6 months caused a lot of grief, imagine a few years

Kotek Besar

Biro wrote: »

They could have a change of ownership tax or something, to the tune of €100 or there abouts, whether you're buying new or 2nd hand, here or abroad.

Now that's just daft.

robtri

personally I say leave VRT as is.... like said if they get rid of it... it will cause a lot of problems in the short to medium term.. Also they will ahve to recover the tax loss somewhere else?? so they will put a tax on some other part of motoring... so whether you are buying a car or keeping the same one you are going to get a great big tax bill..... not very fair imho.

also on a side note get rid of road tax... and increase petrol taxes to cover this...

Biro

benifa wrote: »

Now that's just daft.

Daft or not, they need to generate money. VRT is daft. Everything is daft if you think hard about it, even you! But that's not the point really.
What's even dafter is that they increased the price of choosing your reg from €300 to €1000. Instead they should have reduced it to €200, inticing more people to do it. Bringing in private regs could work too.
It's about money, not sense.

Riskymove

benifa wrote: »

Now that's just daft.

well, apart from it being another purchase tax which the report thinks we should move away from, why is it daft?

smash

robtri wrote: »

personally I say leave VRT as is.... like said if they get rid of it... it will cause a lot of problems in the short to medium term..

Here lies the problem, the Government have been thinking short term too long, they need a long term solution and extra taxes on fuel is the answer!

robtri wrote: »

Also they will ahve to recover the tax loss somewhere else?? so they will put a tax on some other part of motoring... so whether you are buying a car or keeping the same one you are going to get a great big tax bill..... not very fair imho.

They will start to recoup the losses immediately with a fuel tax, VRT is making no money for them at the moment!

robtri wrote: »

also on a side note get rid of road tax... and increase petrol taxes to cover this...

I would not be surprised if they did this too.

Biro wrote: »

They could have a change of ownership tax or something, to the tune of €100 or there abouts, whether you're buying new or 2nd hand, here or abroad.

I actually think this is a good idea, in the UK they have this, I think it's £25 admin fee for change of particulars.

cantdecide

robtri wrote: »

...they will ahve to recover the tax loss somewhere else?? so they will put a tax on some other part of motoring....also on a side note get rid of road tax... and increase petrol taxes to cover this...

That's the very point.

New car buyers (just in this case, for example) have an unfair tax burden. Motoring is a big ticket pursuit and they are taking advantage of this while the going's good. We are and always will be a car dependent nation. Think about it. We simply don't have the population to be any other way.

It's smoke and mirrors and they are taking advantage of this while they can. They also have us conditioned for it. The state has worked to an agenda on the issue of taxation forever and would put gladly keep VRT and put a dozen more plausible motoring taxes with it. It's the same with stamp duty.

Do you know how much VRT you really pay as a percentage on a new car??

Kotek Besar

steve06 wrote: »

I actually think this is a good idea, in the UK they have this, I think it's £25 admin fee for change of particulars.

Not, it's free there too.

Charging to change ownership details on the registration document when buying / selling a car, would result in a rise in folk not doing it, which opens a huge can of worms for buyer, seller and the authorities.

paddydriver

All this kafuffle cause someone says "they were talking to someone" - that probably was talking to someone else... and so the rumour starts.

Surely if VRT was dropped there would be a riot to get to the UK and buy 2nd hand and new cars too as it has been shown that its not just VRT which makes cars far more here than in UK, and this would just be the straw that breaks the Irish car dealer markets back. The price on 2nd hand cars does not contain VRT so by dropping VRT would not mean that existing 2nd hand prices would fall...?

I can see that M5 in my driveway now:D

& what about all those who have paid VRT in recent times - they would be hit with double taxation: bit like introducing property taxes for all those having paid stamp duty.

Am I missing something?

Biro

benifa wrote: »

Not, it's free there too.

Charging to change ownership details on the registration document when buying / selling a car, would result in a rise in folk not doing it, which opens a huge can of worms for buyer, seller and the authorities.

No it wouldn't. What morán would sell his car and not transfer the ownership to the new owner?

BrianD3

On another site, someone estimated that fuel would have to go up by 25 cent a litre to replace lost revenue if VRT was abolished. However that may have been based on "Boom" tax take from VRT.

I would not be surprised to see something dramatic happen in the next budget. The state's finances are in a bad way, spending cuts and extra taxes are needed. Tax on cars, tax on fuel and the values of people's cars are far less emotive issues for people than some other taxes and cutbacks. Wait till they try to implement the Bord Snip report. Even if everything in it is implemented it will only make a dent in the deficit.

And the motor industry is not a powerful lobby in this country compared to other lobby groups. If changes are made to VRT and the SIMI starts wailing about dealers being negatively affected, then the protests will likely fall on deaf ears and get little public support. The general public regards car dealers as robbing bastards anyway.

The rumours about VRT changes have probably already affected the industry, Car sales will be a trickle for the rest of 09 as potential buyers hold off to see what happens.

netwhizkid

There is only so much the people of Ireland will take and yes VRT should be abolished but it should not be lumped over onto something else like Water Charges were shoved onto Motor Tax. Motor tax needs to be cut as does all taxes, they key to getting this country back on track is to sack three quarters of the public service, privatise health and reduce taxes and get people back to work. Continuous rising of taxes is a policy will put Ireland under the control of the IMF before long. Taxes = Socialism and we all know where that will get us.

smash

BrianD3 wrote: »

On another site, someone estimated that fuel would have to go up by 25 cent a litre to replace lost revenue if VRT was abolished. However that may have been based on "Boom" tax take from VRT.

Was it not 25c for both VRT and Motor Tax to be put on the pump?

Biro

20% pay-cut across the board in the public sector would help, and no, it's not too much. Benchmarking should work both ways. They're actually hiring in the public sector, there should be a head count freeze.