Should Turbo be banned at our Ranbats?

Azza

As per Kirby's request, after derailing the negative edge thread we need our own dedicated turbo bashing thread.

Anyway the question is, do you think Turbo should be banned from our future Inferno Ranbats?.

Kirby

I vote no. Its part of the official stick and pad for a reason. It doesn't give anyone an advantage. There is no move you can do with turbo...that you can't do without it. But thats just my .02 cents. I'm probably in the minority.

chopperbyrne

Yes.

Turbo gives an unfair advantage to anyone who uses it.

Azza

There is no move you can do with a pre-program stick that you can't do without but thats not the point. It makes the move easier to preform and takes away from the skill required to do a move.

It may be on the official stick/pad but the vast majority of players don't use the official stick/pad and the majority that do use the official stick/pad don't use the turbo feature either because they know it can gives them an advantage.

If there was no advantage gained then why is it banned from the major international tournaments?

Kirby

Azza wrote: »

There is no move you can't do with a pre-program stick that you can do without but thats not the point.

Your right, its not. The official stick doesn't come with a pre-programmable stick. It does come with turbo!

Azza wrote: »

If there was no advantage gained then why is it banned from the major international tournaments?

Thats faulty logic. Women were banned from voting once. :pac:

I've started practicing without it anyway as I have a feeling the way this vote is going to go. Total pain tbh.

Owwmykneecap

Absolutely it should be banned.

Azza

Turbo is a standard feature on 3rd party pads and sticks. Most players will be playing the game outside of tournaments where the advantage doesn't matter, its designed as just a fun feature for casuals players to to play around with. Its a check list feature that could not be left out of the MadCatz products or people would accuse it of having less features than its competitors products.

Kirby wrote:

Thats faulty logic. Women were banned from voting once.

Em thats avoiding the question. Are you telling me all the guys who organize these major tournaments don't know what they are doing? That they have been wrong for years. How come there has been no mass player petitions to change this?

Kirby wrote:

I've started practicing without it anyway as I have a feeling the way this vote is going to go. Total pain tbh.

You don't need to be psychic to know how this poll is going go. You know the reasons why people are against turbo usage and they are genuine. Its not blaming hardware for lack or skill, its a desire to have everybody on a level playing field as possible.

Kirby

Its no different to binding throwing or Focus to a single button. Its a personal preference. You talk about a level playing field but how is allowing one person to throw with one button.....fair on the people throwing with two buttons? Pressing one button for PPP or KKK? With the extra buttons on the TE, You are pressing the button once, and the computer is inputting three button presses for you. How is this any different from turbo? it's not, it works on the same principle. You press the button once, and several more come out.

Azza wrote: »

You know the reasons why people are against turbo usage and they are genuine. .

I also know the reasons why people are against PPP and KKK buttons......they are genuine too. There is no difference apart from the fact that more people use PPP and KK than use turbo. There is logic to what I'm saying here man, you know there is. I wonder if there was a poll on banning Three Punch buttons or binding multiple commands to one button how that would go. I don't wonder, I already know. People would defend the way they play the game and vote accordingly.

Its a double standard Azza and you know it.

Placebo

i think it should be allowed in our locals, as kirbys using the slowest character ever and on pad, it will just put him into a bad habbit when it comes to tournaments and we can beat him !

A-Trak

Totally agree with a ban on turbo. Imagine mapping Hondas fierce hand slap to turbo? That would mean catching anyone with a poke could be stupidly easy to link to a fierce hundred hand slap - literally with the press of one button.

Now thats not fair.

Also Kirby your point that mapping KKK or PPP to a button is comparable to using turbo,yet you use it yourself?

Kirby wrote: »

Personally, I don't need to use it because I use Turbo on my Three button punch

So if one is to be banned, both are to banned?
Stick players would adapt fairly fast to this as a rule I would imagine, but this would make using ultra's on a pad near impossible, even a fight pad I would imagine would it not?

Yreval

I'm amazed this hasn't been banned already. As for button binding the only ones allowed should be PPP and KKK and even then they should only be available to pad players.

L31mr0d

Yeah... BAN the turbo button. I don't care about your reasoning Kirby, using that monstrosity of a feature gives you an unfair advantage...

/sarcasm

Woah! Déjà vu :pac:

Shotopunx

I can't believe this is up for debate at all. **** turbo.

Sagat06

Yeah turbo should be banned... it removes the need for any skill or timing with linking as for poking to put pressure on just means holding a button down.

As for Kirbys argument with button binding... well... this shouldnt be allowed either in any shape not even the 3 ppp or kkk.

Anyway Kirby your much more skillful than needing such cheap tools

As arcade real as possible is what I try to get from a game and all these additions just take away from it!

Monkeyto

Ban please. Turbo isn't allowed in any other tournaments in the world, no reason it should be allowed here. Casuals fine cause people are dicking about, but not in Rankng Battles or any tournaments.

Retr0gamer

To be honest kirby it will just give you bad habits for when you go to any other tournament. I think if we also want to be taken seriously we should abide by the rules set down by every other major tournament. Even if there's no advantage then those should be good enough reasons. I myself am trying to get out of the habit of using the 3xP and K buttons.

K.O.Kiki

I still think you guys are confusing turbo (where the pad interrupts the signal repeatedly to produce multiple button presses) with programmable controllers (where the pad repeats a set loop of instructions on command) in your minds.

IMHO, no clear advantage can be gained from using Turbo IN STREET FIGHTER IV. Nor, AFAIK, in Tekken or VF.

Hence the "No" vote, even if I've never used Turbo myself.

Sagat06

No disrespect Kiki but as Kirby uses turbo and his opinion is -

basically, i dont have to worry about timing the button press. Just hold it down and mash out the motion. the game will do the rest.

I think that says it all!!

Placebo

kirbys pad receives move signals from justin wong ! no wonder hes been winning !

Kirby

Sagat06 wrote: »

No disrespect Kiki but as Kirby uses turbo and his opinion is -

basically, i dont have to worry about timing the button press. Just hold it down and mash out the motion. the game will do the rest.

I think that says it all!!

And taken way out of context. Its not a magical "I win!" button. Go into training and try it yourself. notice you left out the paragraph where i gave an example, like dashing inputting the motion, and waiting for Sim's dash to end. Or empty jumping and inputting the ultra....which you can do with any control scheme. You can do both without turbo. It was examples of not needed negative edge. Way out of context man.

Tbh this poll is ridiculous. 90% of the people here don't use it, so ofcourse they are going to vote no. It doesnt effect their game. If I like orange juice, and 5 people like apple juice and there is a vote banning one....what do you think is going to happen? I'm not using honda slap or electricity, and sim doesn't have any 1 frame combo links. All these points are moot. Sim is slow as sin. The only thing this is going to do is throw off my timing for using normals and force me to re-learn how I play and its a right pain in the arse. The option is there for everyone to use.....I cant understand what the fuss is about.

If somebody told you your stick and settings were banned, you would be annoyed too. If binding was banned, and it was default settings only, half of you would be suffering in the training lab and causing bloody murder on here. bah.

Sagat06

Alright Kirby I'm not trying to bash on you here but thats what I took from your statement.

But the fact remains chaining moves is much easier with turbo.

My experience of turbo is trying to clear hard trials, if I got stuck I'd crack on the turbo and bam done!!

Azza

No double standard here Kirby and you know it. Normally button binding is not allowed in fighting but as its an in game feature of Street Fighter 4 with regards taunts, throws, and Focus Attacks (to cater for pad users on consoles no doubt) then I'd be very reluctant to see it banned.

Turbo is external to the game.

The reason no one really uses it from the get go is because they know that it gives them an advantage. They know its removes some of the skill required to play the game. People know its banned in tournaments.

You have already said it helps you, I already found it makes chains even easier. There is an advantage. If a players get a Turbo that registers an input every frame then links combos no matter how tough become a joke.

Take our games. One of the key areas you hurt me in is slide to throw. 60-70% of the time you get a throw after close range slide. Sometimes I tech, sometime I get c.lk xx scissors off and sometimes I throw you but the majority of time you get the throw in. If I had a fast enough turbo it would suddenly change that to you 100% of the time eating 4xc.lk xx m.sk/ex.sk after Sim's slide which have all got minus frames on hit. I would not need to time this it all. So instead of you doing throw damage to me, I'd be consistently getting damage on you plus building more meter and adding a fair bit of stun to you as well. That would a massive change. Of course I could do that combo with out such an option but it would be far far tougher to do so with strict timing.

With the official sticks/pads the advantage might be quite small for Sim but if its allowed to be used by one player then everyone would have to be allowed and the advantage gained by other characters could be considerable higher than what a Dhalsim player would get.

You also again avoiding the question if there is no advantage gained by Turbo why is banned at all major fighting tournaments.

Retr0gamer

Breaking news: Kirby the turbo user Exposed!

(I'm joking in case I kick up a **** storm).

Kirby

Azza wrote: »

No double standard here Kirby and you know it. Normally button binding is not allowed in fighting but as its an in game feature of Street Fighter 4 with regards taunts, throws, and Focus Attacks (to cater for pad users on consoles no doubt) then I'd be very reluctant to see it banned.

Turbo is external to the game.

The reason no one really uses it from the get go is because they know that it gives them an advantage. They know its removes some of the skill required to play the game. People know its banned in tournaments.

You have already said it helps you, I already found it makes chains even easier. There is an advantage. If a players get a Turbo that registers an input every frame then links combos no matter how tough become a joke.

Take our games. One of the key areas you hurt me in is slide to throw. 60-70% of the time you get a throw after close range slide. Sometimes I tech, sometime I get c.lk xx scissors off and sometimes I throw you but the majority of time you get the throw in. If I had a fast enough turbo it would suddenly change that to you 100% of the time eating 4xc.lk xx m.sk/ex.sk after Sim's slide which have all got minus frames on hit. I would not need to time this it all. So instead of you doing throw damage to me, I'd be consistently getting damage on you plus building more meter and adding a fair bit of stun to you as well. That would a massive change. Of course I could do that combo with out such an option but it would be far far tougher to do so with strict timing.

With the official sticks/pads the advantage might be quite small for Sim but if its allowed to be used by one player then everyone would have to be allowed and the advantage gained by other characters could be considerable higher than what a Dhalsim player would get.

You also again avoiding the question if there is no advantage gained by Turbo why is banned at all major fighting tournaments.

I haven't avoided it, you have just missed the answer. I thought my "women were banned from voting once" answer was succinct enough.

Just because a bunch of fans declare a bunch of rules for their tournement, doesn't make it gospel. SBO banned pads Azza. Most japanese tourneys do. does that mean we should? But the Japanese do it!11!.

I seem to remember a certain tourney that we all laughed at Akuma being banned. And hasnt that been changed too?

Dramatic battle "banned" custom bindings. Now, because lots of people wanted to use it, they ignored the rule.

See what I'm getting at? Surely you must. All these tourneys tailor their rules to their players. If enough people want a rule that wearing a purple hat while dancing on a pogo stick, it would happen. Using PPP and KKK is no different in principal to turbo. Its taking one input, and adding another 2 inputs to it with one button press. Its just that more people use this, so its not "banned". This is hypocrisy man.

Creature

Ok I vote we kill ban Kirby!

Sagat06

Kirby - Why do you use turbo?

Kirby

Because that what i learned on. It was a feature on the pad, I turned it on. Had I known the uproar it would create, obviously I wouldnt have but hindsight is 20/20.

I dont feel that I should have to relearn the way I play considering it is no different to binding 2 buttons moves to one button.....or people using PPP or KKK. You press the button once, the computer adds a couple more.

Dreddybajs

Kirby wrote: »

Its taking one input, and adding another 2 inputs to it with one button press. Its just that more people use this, so its not "banned". This is hypocrisy man.

no it's not, in the very post you quoted Azza pointed out that PPP and KKK bindings are available in the game itself, whereas turbo is not. Note: I don't use PPP or KKK bindings or any other custom bindings though I have an 8-button stick, so I'm not arguing for them just because I use them or whatever (edit: were there a vote and people are against custom binds I'd happily ban them too).

In COD4, there's no upper limit to how fast you can fire the pistol, and you can get custom controllers which turbo fire it so you can unload the entire magazine at once. By your logic this should be allowed as well?

As I've posted before I don't think your particular use of turbo gives you a huge advantage but I want it banned on principle. It's a pity for you but I really don't think it'll take you that long to readjust if you only use it for that one situation.

For the record, as someone with a turbo feature on their stick, I would've never thought of using it at tourneys. I assumed this was already banned at our tournaments like every other decent tournament and I'm surprised that this thread has even appeared.

Retr0gamer

The extra button bindings are to help pad players from carrying out an awkward button press. The way you use turbo gives you a timing and execution advantage. Also it's banned in every major tournament.

Sagat06

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The extra button bindings are to help pad players from carrying out an awkward button press. The way you use turbo gives you a timing and execution advantage. Also it's banned in every major tournament.

Exactly!!

Dreddybajs

Also, reversal timings in SF4 are extremely easy compared to pretty much every other SF game ever. If we were to hold an ST tournament, you could use turbo get get reversals out extremely easily, whereas it takes quite a lot of skill in terms of your execution consistency to pull them off regularly without turbo.

edit: You posted yourself in the other thread that you "don't need to worry about timing" or something along those lines (not sure of the exact quote) due to the turbo function. How can you post this and then claim there's no execution advantage?

Kirby

Dreddybajs wrote: »

no it's not, in the very post you quoted Azza pointed out that PPP and KKK bindings are available in the game itself, whereas turbo is not. .

They are on the sticks. Extra buttons defaulted to PPP and KKK. Not only in the game.

Dreddybajs wrote: »

In COD4, there's no upper limit to how fast you can fire the pistol, and you can get custom controllers which turbo fire it so you can unload the entire magazine at once. By your logic this should be allowed as well?

This is not a custom controller....its the official controller for the game, licensed by capcom. If the official 360 pad had turbo on it, you would be damn sure it would be allowed in games like Cod4....because thats what everyone would be playing on.

Doesn't matter anyway, Im going to take the 5 people who voted no and create "Turbo Ranbat Super Turbo Match Fight....with Turbo!" Pity ill be the only entrant.

As I said, It looks like im going to have to relearn my stuff. But I wanted to point out the hypocrisy of this. If you cant see it, you are in denial. PPP and KKK buttons are doing the same thing.

Kirby

Dreddybajs wrote: »

You posted yourself in the other thread that you "don't need to worry about timing" or something along those lines (not sure of the exact quote) due to the turbo function. How can you post this and then claim there's no execution advantage?

Like Sagat, you misread it. Or i misposted it. What i was talking about was no need for negative edging. If you mash out a command while standing facing your opponent....and mess up and whiff an ultra you will get punished. If you do it while doing a slow dash such as Sims....or jumping in the air and mess up, it wont matter as the wrong move wont come out and you will be safe. Its a "safe" way of performing ultra. Its not turbo related.

Dreddybajs

It doesn't matter that it's a custom controller or not, if it works on 360/PS3 then so far we would be allowing it in our tournaments with the current ruleset - this is my point.

Also yeah, they're on the sticks, and I don't know if you realise but some fighting games (SNK mainly) use as the arcade setup 4 horizontal buttons. The turbo on my stick I use for shoot em ups, the 4 buttons on my stick I use for playing KOF. The fact is as well as being on the stick, the button bindings are in the SF4 options menu. If you can't see that that's different I can't really post it any clearer.

edit: Apologies for misreading that post so Kirby

A-Trak

Kirby wrote: »

I'm not using honda slap or electricity, and sim doesn't have any 1 frame combo links.

I am using Honda though. And although as you say turbo has no real benefit to Sim, it has a very obvious benefit to me as a Honda player. And if you can use turbo in a tourney, so then can I. Can you not see why this makes sense and people are voting against Turbo in the majority?

This isn't personal against you Kirby.

Kirby wrote:

If binding was banned, and it was default settings only, half of you would be suffering in the training lab and causing bloody murder on here. bah.

Not true. If bindings were banned such as PPP, it takes very little time to adopt to using a 3 button press on a stick, I know this from experience. Pad players such as yourself would suffer far more.

Kirby wrote: »

Using PPP and KKK is no different in principal to turbo. Its taking one input, and adding another 2 inputs to it with one button press. Its just that more people use this, so its not "banned". This is hypocrisy man.

I've bolded the key word here. In practice, they're far different.
Again, are you arguing that if you ban one, both must be banned?

Kirby

yes. Its picking and choosing which game feature to disable and enable because it suits certain people. You are pressing one button and letting the computer press 3. Its essentially the exact same.....except that people like it more

No real point in discussing this further. You know my viewpoint, I know yours. We are just retreading old ground. The mob has spoken it would appear.

A-Trak

Fair enough.

Democracy rules I suppose;)

chopperbyrne

Turbo and Button Bindings are completely different.

Button bindings are in the menu in the game, turbo isn't. As has already been pointed out, you yourself (using Dhalsim) may not gain a huge advantage by using turbo, but several other characters would.

Also saying you can't piano on your pad is a bit strange. Pads like that were designed so you can tap the buttons just like you would on an arcade stick using three fingers in a row.

The Madctz products are not official Capcom products and really have no association other than some artwork Madcatz paid for so people would take notice of and then buy their products. They knew without the license most people would write them off as the makers of numerous crap tech over the years.

This seems to be turning into a Kirby bashing thread, which I personally don't want to see happening as he's a top bloke and doesn't deserve it.

Azza

Its not a game feature Kirby, there is no in game Turbo setting, its a hardware feature external to the game.

Turbo is not exactly the same feature as one button pressing three either. Turbo register multi-pal inputs of the same button by merely holding the button down. You only get one input per button press without turbo (not including the releasing of the button).

The majority has indeed spoken so far. Its the fairest system we have to offer.

You might not agree with with the rule if it comes into force but thats how the system work. Implying its wrong merely because other rules or laws have been wrong before (like womens voting rights) merely imply's thats all rules/laws are possibly wrong.

Azza

No ones bashing Kirby, hes a sound guy, he has done nothing wrong, turbo wasn't officially banned in previous tournaments so he was entitled to use it, its just the majority of players here don't agree with his viewpoint. People are just a bit frustrated that both sides can't seem to see their point of view.

Kirby

Azza wrote: »

Its not a game feature Kirby, there is no in game Turbo setting, its a hardware feature external to the game..

The PPP and KKK buttons are also hardware features. Without the extra button, you wouldn't be able to use the binding because you only have six buttons on the old sticks.

And I put this to you. You say binding focus and throws to one button is fine because "its in the game". If turbo would be an option in the game, would you still have a problem using it? I'm betting you would. So your arguement that its not aloud because its not in the game, is flawed. Which brings us back to the "it gives an unfair advantage" arguement instead. Which I maintain that if you arent using blanka, Chun lu or honda, it doesn't.

And Atari Jaguar!

Retr0gamer

It also gives you a very unfair anti dizzy advantage. Any other unscruppolous players can also gain a massive advantage with throwing and teching if they bind it to a turbo-ed button. We can't really enforce a rule that says, only use turbo for the way kirby is using it.

Azza

Kirby wrote:

The PPP and KKK buttons are also hardware features.

Yes thats true and everyone can take advantage of them because the default controller for each system the game was released on has enough button to use it. Turbo is not also a software feature.

You argument that if Turbo was in built feature of the game that I still would not be in favor of it is the argument thats flawed. No fighting game has a built in turbo feature by design, the designers would not put it in because it would create an automatic two tier system where users that use it would would be at an advantage so everyone would be forced to use it. Then whats the point of the non turbo option. Besides if the community felt it takes away from skill required to play the game they would still end up banning it.

Then you go on to admit that 3 characters in your opinion do get an advantage from turbo, which kind makes your whole argument mute. You yourself get a tiny advantage from using it with Dhalsim otherwise you would not be using it. But its more than 4 characters. I have already tested it on chain combos and it does make them easier than they already are. If you have a fast enough turbo feature then links become a matter of holding a button. 95% of the cast of characters would gain a significant benefit. Something tricky liking j.mk,c.mp,c.mp,c.mk xx ex.hurricane kick for Ryu would be so easy to preform as the 3 links in it would be automatically done for you with no need to worry about correctly timing.

Dreddybajs

Kirby wrote: »

And I put this to you. You say binding focus and throws to one button is fine because "its in the game". If turbo would be an option in the game, would you still have a problem using it?

I wouldn't play such a terribly designed fighting game

Dreddybajs

Kirby wrote: »

The PPP and KKK buttons are also hardware features. Without the extra button, you wouldn't be able to use the binding because you only have six buttons on the old sticks.

No you don't, there are 2 more buttons above the other 6, beside the start/back buttons. I know someone who actually uses them weirdly enough.

Shotopunx

People binding on a stick is mental as well.

Cunny-Funt

As far as I'm aware PPP and KKK are binded by default. All I know is, when I had that shot of a SE stick, pressing the black buttons worked as PPP and KKK and I didnt bind ****, its the default controls, just like L1 and L2 and ppp and kkk by default.

Kirby, I'm surprised at you reaction tbh. Turbo is widely considered 'cheating'....everywhere. This really can't be your 1st time hearing this?

Hell I remember playing championship edition on the mega drive back when I was about 9 or something, I had just gotten some 3rd party controllers which had turbo on them and all of a sudden I could get ryu to jab at 100 million miles a second by holding a single button down. This pretty much instantly translated to me as 'cheating' with out anyone telling me anything.

Using turbo with chun li blanka and E-honda is actually one of those classic retro cheats people would remember from child hood...its literally considered cheating & it is totally different to mapping buttons. Theres no hypocrisy or double standards here man.

Sorry m8

Placebo

can any one confirm if SF4 cabs have 6 buttons or 8 buttons?
this is just got habbit ofcourse, if you ever got so good and went to japan, youd FAIL

everyone can dream

bush

Placebo wrote: »

can any one confirm if SF4 cabs have 6 buttons or 8 buttons?
this is just got habbit ofcourse, if you ever got so good and went to japan, youd FAIL

everyone can dream

They have 6, you could have 20 buttons with macros set up and you would still fail in Japan :pac:

Kirby

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

As far as I'm aware PPP and KKK are binded by default. All I know is, when I had that shot of a SE stick, pressing the black buttons worked as PPP and KKK and I didnt bind ****, its the default controls, just like L1 and L2 and ppp and kkk by default.

Kirby, I'm surprised at you reaction tbh. Turbo is widely considered 'cheating'....everywhere. This really can't be your 1st time hearing this?

Hell I remember playing championship edition on the mega drive back when I was about 9 or something, I had just gotten some 3rd party controllers which had turbo on them and all of a sudden I could get ryu to jab at 100 million miles a second by holding a single button down. This pretty much instantly translated to me as 'cheating' with out anyone telling me anything.

Using turbo with chun li blanka and E-honda is actually one of those classic retro cheats people would remember from child hood...its literally considered cheating & it is totally different to mapping buttons. Theres no hypocrisy or double standards here man.

Sorry m8

Well it's been talked to death at this stage....and people said their piece and i'm fine with that. But just talking hypothetically for a moment, this is really worth looking at.

It's less about turbo for me at this stage, and more about peoples perception of game aiding features. I'm the only one who uses it, yet four other people voted with it. Clearly what I'm saying reasonated with a few people. Your aren't looking at it analytically. You are looking at it from a childhood memory point of view.

If you examine what PPP buttons and bindings do compared to turbo, both take one button press and convert it into many. Using PPP buttons and focus bindings makes execution easier due to only have to press one button, instead of many.

PPP buttions and bindings don't allow you to pull off any move with them you can't normally....many people don't even use them......but it makes execution easier. How is this any different? It isn't.

There is no move you can with turbo that you can't do without it. Peoples problem seems to be it makes execution easier.......but so does using a stick over a pad. So does using PPP and KKK buttons. So does using noise cancelling headphones. None of those things give your character magical powers......they just make execution easier.

Azza's example of Macro's is completely off the wall. Macro's DO let you do things that arent normally possible. None of the features I've listed above let you do that.

All I was doing was highlighting how its very easy to declare outrage at something..... but ignore similar features in your own game because it suits you. And I mean the general "you", not you inparticular Cunny

Jim

Personally I have no issue with people using a Turbo feature, but I can see why it would be banned in tournaments.

With reference to your statement Kirby about how Turbo doesn't allow you to do anything in the game that you couldn't do without it, the only thing I could think of is that it would allow you to break out of dizzy quicker than is physically possible otherwise. Similarly it would enable you to do the hand slap etc faster than is physically possible. I don't think these examples are classed under something which Turbo makes easier to execute, but enables execution faster than you would normally be able to (which is the problem), whereas the PPP KKK buttons just makes it easier....if that makes sense?

Also I would like to point out to the people who said that taking away binding PPP and KKK to single buttons would **** up pad users, when using my pad I never once used these buttons but always pressed the three together and found it much easier :pac: