Garda Cars & Defibs

Bang Bang

I was just reading through the Vehicle Gallery thread and something came to mind so I thought I ask you here.

I remember a few short years ago there were Garda crews trained up to cardiac defib level of training. I think the trial was in Dublin and Kilkenny, I'm open to correction there.

I was just wondering if this trial is still ongoing, has it spread to other areas with increased training and more Garda cars equipped with defibs or has it been put on the back burner.

Have any Garda members here received defib training and were any of the cars turned out to medical emergencies?

donvito99

As far as Im aware the RSU's carry a Defib and have a great standard of first aid etc.

Hooch

This "trial" is still going on in Blanch and Kilkenny Traffic. Were fighting to get them in all Traffic cars but we wont see that for years tbh, unless you come across a certain EMT trained member with his personal trauma bag!!:D

RSU carry trauma bag and defibs in their Volvos.

civildefence

nice guy always wrote: »

This "trial" is still going on in Blanch and Kilkenny Traffic. Were fighting to get them in all Traffic cars but we wont see that for years tbh, unless you come across a certain EMT trained member with his personal trauma bag!!:D

RSU carry trauma bag and defibs in their Volvos.

NGA I know a man that'll do ya a good deal on a knocked-off Lifepak 12 :eek:

ScubaDave

I dont think its just traffic in Kilkenny that are doing it! Think its district car!

5500

How exactly are units dispatched eg in blanch would dfb pass a call onto the station knowing that one of the car's has a defib or is it just onboard incase they ever happen to come across a situation that needs it?

timmywex

donvito99 wrote: »

As far as Im aware the RSU's carry a Defib and have a great standard of first aid etc.

Didnt they have a successfull resus a while back?!

Hooch

timmywex wrote: »

Didnt they have a successfull resus a while back?!

Ya, Mallow to Limerick road, driver had an arrest, crashed into ditch, RSU behind the driver, lads jumped out, preformed CPR and delievered one shock to return circulation. Driver is alive and well.

DrIndy

Everyone who can be should be trained as a first responder. When seconds matter, if you're first on the scene you can really make a difference.

Successful resuscitations rates go down dramatically for every minute that passes before shock (and even faster without CPR)

Paulzx

eireal wrote: »

How exactly are units dispatched eg in blanch would dfb pass a call onto the station knowing that one of the car's has a defib or is it just onboard incase they ever happen to come across a situation that needs it?

Dfb would never pass on a medical call to the gardai. A cardiac arrest call will receive a response of a fire engine( which has a defib ) and an ambo , be it dfb or hse. Advanced paramedic cars will also be sent if available.

My understanding of the defibs in the blanch garda car is they are to be used if they come across a cardiac incident. The Gardai in Blanch have enough to be doing without responding to cardiac arrests.

deadwood

donvito99 wrote: »

As far as Im aware the RSU's carry a Defib and have a great standard of first aid etc.

timmywex wrote: »

Didnt they have a successfull resus a while back?!

Wow, Tasers are really versatile.

DrIndy

Paulzx wrote: »

Dfb would never pass on a medical call to the gardai. A cardiac arrest call will receive a response of a fire engine( which has a defib ) and an ambo , be it dfb or hse. Advanced paramedic cars will also be sent if available.

My understanding of the defibs in the blanch garda car is they are to be used if they come across a cardiac incident. The Gardai in Blanch have enough to be doing without responding to cardiac arrests.

Thats not the point. First responder is not an acronym for paramedic - its the first person on the scene.

If a garda car reaches an incident 3 minutes ahead of the paramedics because they have a much faster car and drive it well, by giving CPR and defibrillating, they have saved that life. My other comment is that if all gardai are trained in Basic Life support and Trauma - it also gives people confidence to land in a crash scene and to know the right thing to do if someone has a spinal injury. All this can save lives and does not turn them into pseudo-paramedics. If someone is gushing blood from an arterial bleed - knowing how to stop it is hugely important.

Hence garda cars should carry basic resuscitation equipment.

Straw poll folks - who's commonly first on scene - gardai or fire brigade/paramedics? (this answers the question as to why I think there should be basic resus stuff and appropriate training for every gardai)

Paulzx

DrIndy wrote: »

Thats not the point. First responder is not an acronym for paramedic - its the first person on the scene.

If a garda car reaches an incident 3 minutes ahead of the paramedics because they have a much faster car and drive it well, by giving CPR and defibrillating, they have saved that life. My other comment is that if all gardai are trained in Basic Life support and Trauma - it also gives people confidence to land in a crash scene and to know the right thing to do if someone has a spinal injury. All this can save lives and does not turn them into pseudo-paramedics. If someone is gushing blood from an arterial bleed - knowing how to stop it is hugely important.

Hence garda cars should carry basic resuscitation equipment.

Straw poll folks - who's commonly first on scene - gardai or fire brigade/paramedics? (this answers the question as to why I think there should be basic resus stuff and appropriate training for every gardai)

Whats not the point? I have only tried to clarify the facts of what happens in dublin when you look for an ambulance. The question was asked whether a call would be passed onto the gardai by dfb control. This does not happen. The wrongs or rights of passing calls on to ags because they have defibs is not something i was trying to get into. I was just trying to answer eireal's question.

I am well aware of what a first responder is. I have no idea however what a pseudo- paramedic is. I think you have interpereted my post as something that it is not i.e some sort of inter agency rivalry. I would be quite happy if we could offload more calls to any agency and get rid of the constantly queued ones.

Response times are so varied throughout the country that your question about who turns up first can only be asked with reference to a specific location. Of course it makes sense to have provided gardai with first responder training but when did anything in Irish emergency services ever make sense

bravestar

Paulzx wrote: »

Dfb would never pass on a medical call to the gardai. A cardiac arrest call will receive a response of a fire engine( which has a defib ) and an ambo , be it dfb or hse. Advanced paramedic cars will also be sent if available.

Well I hate to burst your bubble but I can tell you from first hand experience you are wrong.

Paulzx

Well tell me then. Burst my so called bubble. I have never heard of it happening. I have answered a question to the best of my knowledge that another poster asked. I don't understand why people feel the need to jump down my throat.

If you can refute what i have said then do so. Don't just say i'm wrong and not elaborate. I have no problem accepting a valid arguement.

Hooch

Paulzx wrote: »

Well tell me then. Burst my so called bubble. I have never heard of it happening. I have answered a question to the best of my knowledge that another poster asked. I don't understand why people feel the need to jump down my throat.

If you can refute what i have said then do so. Don't just say i'm wrong and not elaborate. I have no problem accepting a valid arguement.

+1....no need to attack straight off the mark and as stated, its not very fair to just say hes wrong and "burst his bubble". You'll have to add a bit more:)

bravestar

Paulzx wrote: »

Well tell me then. Burst my so called bubble. I have never heard of it happening. I have answered a question to the best of my knowledge that another poster asked. I don't understand why people feel the need to jump down my throat.

If you can refute what i have said then do so. Don't just say i'm wrong and not elaborate. I have no problem accepting a valid arguement.

I wasn't jumping down your throat mate, it was badly worded and for that I'll hold my hands up and apologise. Didn't mean to come off like that.

I am saying that you are wrong because I have (on more than one occassion) gone to DFB assistance calls where they need us to defib someone.

Paulzx

bravestar wrote: »

I wasn't jumping down your throat mate, it was badly worded and for that I'll hold my hands up and apologise. Didn't mean to come off like that.

I am saying that you are wrong because I have (on more than one occassion) gone to DFB assistance calls where they need us to defib someone.

So just let me get this straight. You are a memeber of ags based in dublin and have on numerous occasions been requested by DFB control to go to medical calls so that your defib can be used.

I have to say that i have problems actually believing this. I have never seen or heard of any occasion where we would specifically request the use of a garda defib. Every ambulance and fire appliance carries a defib. Fire appliances regularly arrive at cardiac arrests before ambulances and will use their defib before the ambo arrives. I cannot see how it would be of benifet to transfer a medical call to ags when the fire appliances are well spread over the city and can get there within minutes.




What part of Dublin is this happening in?

dredre

The closest defib should be sent to the patient. This doesn't mean don't send the ambulance and fire tender too. But if the Garda car with a defib on board is closer than and ambulance or fire tender, it would be negligent not to use it if available.

Paulzx

dredre wrote: »

The closest defib should be sent to the patient. This doesn't mean don't send the ambulance and fire tender too. But if the Garda car with a defib on board is closer than and ambulance or fire tender, it would be negligent not to use it if available.

Look, nowhere have i said that the closest defib should not be sent. I was asked a question about what actually happens and have attempted to address this. DFB control are not aware of locations of ags vehicles with defibs so therefore will not attempt to contact them.
I am not aware of any protocol in place to pass ambulance calls to ags. Do you want controllers wasting time ringing Garda control every time a cardiac arrest comes in?
I don't understand how people find it so difficult to get what i'm saying

dredre

Paulzx wrote: »

Look, nowhere have i said that the closest defib should not be sent.

You implied that it was of no benefit though, which is more or less the same thing.

I was asked a question about what actually happens and have attempted to address this. DFB control are not aware of locations of ags vehicles with defibs so therefore will not attempt to contact them.

I am not aware of any protocol in place to pass ambulance calls to ags. Do you want controllers wasting time ringing Garda control every time a cardiac arrest comes in?

How is it wasting time? DFB control has several controllers on at once and allows for simultaneous call taking and dispatch. If it is a genuine cardiac arrest, other calls can wait for the 30 seconds it would take to activate the Gardai.

Dfb would never pass on a medical call to the gardai.

My understanding of the defibs in the blanch garda car is they are to be used if they come across a cardiac incident. The Gardai in Blanch have enough to be doing without responding to cardiac arrests.

They have in the past:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-patrol-cars-to-get-vital-cardiac-equipment-105750.html

A cardiac arrest call will receive a response of a fire engine( which has a defib ) and an ambo , be it dfb or hse. Advanced paramedic cars will also be sent if available.

Which is all great, but the only thing which saves lives in cardiac arrest is early defibrillation and CPR.

I have to say that i have problems actually believing this. I have never seen or heard of any occasion where we would specifically request the use of a garda defib. Every ambulance and fire appliance carries a defib. Fire appliances regularly arrive at cardiac arrests before ambulances and will use their defib before the ambo arrives.

It seems that others have had different experiences and that this may have happened in the past or even still occur.

And if the Garda defib can arrive quicker than the fire tender, is that not better still?

I cannot see how it would be of benifet to transfer a medical call to ags when the fire appliances are well spread over the city and can get there within minutes.

It would be of benefit if the Garda defib gets there first. Early defibrillation saves lives. It doesn't matter who does it. I fail to understand how you cannot see the benefit in this.

Paulzx

dredre wrote: »

You implied that it was of no benefit though, which is more or less the same thing.



How is it wasting time? DFB control has several controllers on at once and allows for simultaneous call taking and dispatch. If it is a genuine cardiac arrest, other calls can wait for the 30 seconds it would take to activate the Gardai.





They have in the past:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-patrol-cars-to-get-vital-cardiac-equipment-105750.html



Which is all great, but the only thing which saves lives in cardiac arrest is early defibrillation and CPR.



It seems that others have had different experiences and that this may have happened in the past or even still occur.

And if the Garda defib can arrive quicker than the fire tender, is that not better still?



It would be of benefit if the Garda defib gets there first. Early defibrillation saves lives. It doesn't matter who does it. I fail to understand how you cannot see the benefit in this.

Ah FFS.

1. I know the chain of survival. I deal with it every day.

2. You use a press release in a newspaper as evidence that this happens. Come on!! That was drawn up by some pr flunkie who has no idea what happens on the ground. How many times do i have to repeat this? I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY CASES OF AMBO CALLS BEING PASSED ONTO AGS!!! Nowhere have i said that the closest defib is not the best defib. You can only send a defib if you know where it is

3. If you think that the controllers have the time to be automatically ringing the grdai every time they get an arrest on the one in a million chance of that they might be able to offer assistance you have obviously never set foot in our control room. When that place takes off the controllers don't have time to scratch themselves.


How many times do i have to say this? The actual merits of contacting ags for these cases are not part of my arguement.
What i am saying is that i have never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever seen this happen.

There is no point people lecturing me on mins save lives, nearest defib, chain of survival blah blah blah. I am aware of this and not arguing against it.

Jesus maybe i'm typing in Swahili!!!

mcguiver

Defib in the car, eh?

I'll just have a look.

Used Crime scene tape
Fire extinguisher ..broken.
An old handbag.
lots of bluegloves.
mouthpieces for handheld intoxilisor
2 old charge sheets

Yeah I think we have room.
Dont think we're gettin one any time soon though.
Can you remember the list ?
Casts his mind back to Pollys many moons ago......
2 checkpoint signs
2 acident ahead signs
warning triangle
2 scotchlite belts
fire extinguisher
First aid kit

If we cant get the basic right, what chance of a defib

timmywex

Maybe when tetra goes fully live it would be easier to request garda assistance via a general broadcast over the system, which would be handy i think all sides should agree! Closest resource is the best afterall!

Turner

Never heard of any de-fibs in any DMR stations patrol cars.

But according to the press release yeah they were on trial in blanch.

Doesnt mean they were ever used though.


Mcguivers post summed up a patrol car really well.

dredre

Paulzx wrote: »

Ah FFS.

1. I know the chain of survival. I deal with it every day.

Then, you can't say there's no benefit to responding a Garda defib if it were available and closer.

2. You use a press release in a newspaper as evidence that this happens. Come on!! That was drawn up by some pr flunkie who has no idea what happens on the ground. How many times do i have to repeat this? I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY CASES OF AMBO CALLS BEING PASSED ONTO AGS!!! Nowhere have i said that the closest defib is not the best defib. You can only send a defib if you know where it is

I said it may have happened. It didn't ever claim to know whether it was/is happening. As I said Bravestar seems to have a different opinion/experience. I understand you personally are not aware of any such cases and you may be right, but you may also be wrong. Please don't shout.

3. If you think that the controllers have the time to be automatically ringing the grdai every time they get an arrest on the one in a million chance of that they might be able to offer assistance you have obviously never set foot in our control room. When that place takes off the controllers don't have time to scratch themselves.

I have been in the DFB control room many times. There is certainly time during a cardiac arrest call to ask AGS if they had a resource available nearby.

How many times do i have to say this? The actual merits of contacting ags for these cases are not part of my arguement.
What i am saying is that i have never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever seen this happen.

Again, we get the message that you have never seen this happen. However, you have gone on to say that you can see no benefit to it either, which seems to be arguing against it to me.

There is no point people lecturing me on mins save lives, nearest defib, chain of survival blah blah blah. I am aware of this and not arguing against it.

I am not lecturing you! And it's not 'blah blah blah' either. However, by not seeing the benefit in dispatching a closer resource if it was available, you seem not to be willing to implement the chain of survival.[/QUOTE]

Jesus maybe i'm typing in Swahili!!!

No, but you are getting very worked up over a simple point and in so doing appear to me to be aggressive and a poor advertisement for the service you represent.

maglite

Nationally how many Garda defibs are mobile at anyone time.

2 on trial in 2 districts.
RSU 6?
ERU 2?

So we are looking for a national plan to facilitate what 10ish defibs. What not ask for the vols CFR groups, and anyone that is wall mounted nationally. Shall we assume 400 vols defibs, 200 for CFR groups, retained Fire? and 1000 wall mounted?

Being realistic the numbers the gardai have are small fish.

Hooch

maglite wrote: »

Nationally how many Garda defibs are mobile at anyone time.

2 on trial in 2 districts.
RSU 6?
ERU 2?

So we are looking for a national plan to facilitate what 10ish defibs. What not ask for the vols CFR groups, and anyone that is wall mounted nationally. Shall we assume 400 vols defibs, 200 for CFR groups, retained Fire? and 1000 wall mounted?

Being realistic the numbers the gardai have are small fish.

Thats the idea......2 on "trial". If every Garda car had one it would most certainly increase resus for an arrest. Outside Dublin 80% of the time AGS is first (or can be first) to a scene.

Paulzx

There is no point me constantly repeating myself.

dredre wrote: »

appear to me to be aggressive and a poor advertisement for the service you represent.

That as far as i am concerned is a personal attack on my ability and professionalism. During all my replies i have never once made a personal remark towards any poster and have been civil at all times. You, sir have decided not to abide by them rules.


Serving Gardai have come on and posted that they are not aware of where defibs are in dublin on ags cars if any. However, you expect controllers from another agency to ring around looking for them. Someone else can continue to argue with you because i will not be replying again to you

dredre

Paulzx wrote: »

There is no point me constantly repeating myself.




That as far as i am concerned is a personal attack on my ability and professionalism. During all my replies i have never once made a personal remark towards any poster and have been civil at all times. You, sir have decided not to abide by them rules.


Serving Gardai have come on and posted that they are not aware of where defibs are in dublin on ags cars if any. However, you expect controllers from another agency to ring around looking for them. Someone else can continue to argue with you because i will not be replying again to you

I never questioned your ability or professionalism. I felt you were being aggressive in the tone of your replies and the use of BLOCK CAPITALS - which is the equivalent of shouting and not very civil.

I am not suggesting that DFB or HSE controls ring around looking for other defibrillators in the heat of a cardiac arrest. But if there was a system in place such as that described in Blanchardstown, that would only take a few seconds to activate and could possibly be time well spent.

I think we are confusing what is actually happening on the ground and what did/could happen if the Blanchardstown model was/is in place.

If this system was available it would be great, even in limited areas. However, your posts conveyed the impression that you did not see any benefit from such a system even if it did exist.

I think that a firefighter-paramedic should appreciate that such a system has the potential to serve the patient better. I'm not questioning your ability or professionalism though.

Smokey Bear

Only once have I every seen a defib deployed in Dublin by AGS and that was in Finglas about 3 years ago where an arrest was called in by AGS about 1min from finglas fire station when we arrived 2 Gardai had defib pads on and ready to shock.They had called it in as they were on scene.
Beside PT one empty bottle of vodka.
PT walked/assisted to ambo.
They were very disappointed that they did not get to use there new toy!!
have not seen it since.

Turner

Smokey Bear wrote: »

Only once have I every seen defib deployed in Dublin by AGS and that was in Finglas about 3 years ago where an arrest was called in by AGS about 1min from finglas fire station when we arrived 2 Gardai had defib pads on and ready to shock.They had called it in as they were on scene.
Beside PT one empty bottle of vodka.
PT walked/assisted to ambo.
They were very disappointed that they did not get to use there new toy!!
have not seen it since.

Figures,

Finglas is in DMR West, the Hq of DMR West being Blanchardstown. So was probably the one on trial.

Shield

dredre wrote: »

...and a poor advertisement for the service you represent.

That's a bit unfair no? He never once said he's here representing anyone or any service.

bravestar

Paulzx wrote: »

So just let me get this straight. You are a memeber of ags based in dublin and have on numerous occasions been requested by DFB control to go to medical calls so that your defib can be used.

I have to say that i have problems actually believing this. I have never seen or heard of any occasion where we would specifically request the use of a garda defib. Every ambulance and fire appliance carries a defib. Fire appliances regularly arrive at cardiac arrests before ambulances and will use their defib before the ambo arrives. I cannot see how it would be of benifet to transfer a medical call to ags when the fire appliances are well spread over the city and can get there within minutes.




What part of Dublin is this happening in?

In relation to your first paragraph, I don't recall if it was DFB control that put the request in but yes.

You may have trouble believing this, I have trouble believing "it's not butter", but at the end of the day it is true. What possible motivation would I have to tell porkies. The calls were also not "transferred" to us, it was merely DFB at scene requesting a bit of assistance.

Paulzx

bravestar wrote: »

The calls were also not "transferred" to us, it was merely DFB at scene requesting a bit of assistance.

Thats a completely different scenario to the original question i answered. Fair play for giving a dig out.

Just out of interest, do you know what was wrong with the dfb crews own defib. Had it malfunctioned?

dredre

psni wrote: »

That's a bit unfair no? He never once said he's here representing anyone or any service.

I don't think so. A paramedic must appreciate the benefit of early defibrillation - which includes sending the closest available defibrillator to the patient, regardless of who brings it. I felt that from the post which said:

I cannot see how it would be of benifet to transfer a medical call to ags when the fire appliances are well spread over the city and can get there within minutes.

it gave the impression of not appreciating the importance of early defibrillation which I think is a poor reflection of any pre hospital care provider.

Paulzx, if you do see the benefit of having defibrillators in Garda cars available to Dublin's EMS (in a hypothetical situation), all you have to do is say so, but you seem to be getting more entrenched here, while quite correctly acknowledging the chain of survival at the same time.

Regarding the service, I know that none of us here are officially representing any service or organisation in our posts, and that Paulzx has never claimed to do so, but it is inescapable that impressions are formed based on our interactions here. For example, I know that Bang Bang is a paramedic and The Nog a Garda. They are representing their service on some level when they post here and if they come accross well or badly, that reflects on their respective organisations to a degree.

I hope that clarifies. I haven't intended to offend anyone.

Paulzx

I swore i was finished with this but i'm a glutton for punishment

dredre wrote: »

Paulzx, if you do see the benefit of having defibrillators in Garda cars available to Dublin's EMS (in a hypothetical situation),.

I have at no stage spoke about a hypothetical situation. I have told you what happens at the moment in real life. I repeatedly said i was not talking about the merits of what could happen in a utopian perfect world. I have not once said that if garda cars as a matter of course carried defibs they should not be used.

And would you stop telling me about the benifits of early defibrillation. i
I vaguely remember someone telling me about this on my paramedic course:rolleyes:

I am definitly finished this time or i'm going to say something that gets me a ban.
If you wish to keep misinterperating my posts go ahead. I've lost the will to live at this stage.

Over......and........Out

dredre

I cannot see how it would be of benifet to transfer a medical call to ags when the fire appliances are well spread over the city and can get there within minutes.

Would suggests a hypothetical situation!

I don't think I am misinterpreting here?

Whether it's would/could/is, the point is that there is a benefit and I am astonished that you don't see this.

On the other issue, I think it is clear that there isn't any Garda defibrillation programme (a la Blanchardstown) at the moment, but there may have been... briefly.

That's all.

I'll stop too now!

Hooch

dredre wrote: »

On the other issue, I think it is clear that there isn't any Garda defibrillation programme (a la Blanchardstown) at the moment, but there may have been... briefly.

Am I missing something.....I thought I said there is still a "pilot" programme for a defib in Blanch.....I do believe another member also confirmed this???

I may be wrong but from my reading of Pauls posts, he is stating that there is no procedure in place for DFB control to notify Blanch Garda station. DFB cannot just call people with defibs to respond to calls, there must be a procedure in place and an agreement between services. Same as Coast Guard only being able to task recognised rescue units to calls. I cant recall any post stating he didnt agree with it. Just that it doesnt happen.

I would expect paul and all EMS practitioners to be in favor of more defibs for early access. (and im pretty sure that as a practitioner Paul does know the chain of survival:)). More persons trained and more equipment available saves lives. Simples.

deadwood

Paulzx wrote: »

I have no idea however what a pseudo- paramedic is.

They apply the pseudo creme.

bravestar wrote: »

I am saying that you are wrong because I have (on more than one occassion) gone to DFB assistance calls where they need us to defib someone.

Sorry, but I find this a bit hard o swallow too. I know calls for assistance are common enough regarding troublesome patients/stone throwing etc., but dfb calling the guards to defib someone? Maybe to use their equipment?

It'd be a bit like the cops calling DFB to preserve a scene/arrest/sign a passport form.

dredre wrote: »

The closest defib should be sent to the patient. This doesn't mean don't send the ambulance and fire tender too. But if the Garda car with a defib on board is closer than and ambulance or fire tender, it would be negligent not to use it if available.

I don't think anyone could argue with this but where do you draw the line? There is no guarantee that any of the garda vehicles/trained personnel are going to be available. Is a radio controller going to rely on a garda defib possibly being available, while there is a dedicated highly trained resource there already? Do you alert all defib cars in the area while sending an ambulance as well, while depriving other areas of the services? We all have limited resources and cannot send "all units" to every call. You'd have a convoy whizzing around then.

Does the guard leave a crime scene or release a suspect to attend to a medical emergency?

Hooch

Are my eyes lying to me.......deadwood with a partly serious comment:eek::eek::D:D

deadwood

nice guy always wrote: »

Are my eyes lying to me.......deadwood with a partly serious comment:eek::eek::D:D

Urghh...i've come over all queer, like. What just happened there? I think someone spiked my drink....

Paulzx

deadwood wrote: »

They apply the pseudo creme.

:

:D:D:D:D

medic_1

dredre wrote: »

Which is all great, but the only thing which saves lives in cardiac arrest is early defibrillation and CPR.

Really?


Really???

Whitewater-AGS

Its a nice idea but it will never happen we will never have defibs in each patrol car or even one defib per district. The costs alone mean it will never happen sure they wont even give us a propper first aid course in templemore!

At the end of the day we're Gardai if i'm first on the scene i'll give cpr (and i'll be weighing up alot of issues before i decide to start cpr but thats for another day) but i'll leave anything after that to the dfb/hse

deadwood

Not exactly on topic, but does anyone know (or make an educated guess if you've used these machines) wha the success rate for defibs is? Better than CPR?

Hooch

deadwood wrote: »

Not exactly on topic, but does anyone know (or make an educated guess if you've used these machines) wha the success rate for defibs is? Better than CPR?

CPR alone cannot reverse a Vfib (most cardaic arrests are Vfib, erratic unusable useless rythem of the heart). A defib accually stops your heart, hoping to return circulation. It stops it and the SA node (the thingy that send current to contract the heart and pump) returns to normal electrical activity....hopefully. When you see on tv a flat line (asystole) and the medics getting out the defib and shocking the patient....this is bull.

So without a defib.....CPR alone only prolongs the time in which a sucessful shock can be delievered.

deadwood

nice guy always wrote: »

asystole

Jesus, I only asked.

bravestar

deadwood wrote: »

Sorry, but I find this a bit hard o swallow too. I know calls for assistance are common enough regarding troublesome patients/stone throwing etc., but dfb calling the guards to defib someone? Maybe to use their equipment?

It'd be a bit like the cops calling DFB to preserve a scene/arrest/sign a passport form.




I don't think anyone could argue with this but where do you draw the line? There is no guarantee that any of the garda vehicles/trained personnel are going to be available. Is a radio controller going to rely on a garda defib possibly being available, while there is a dedicated highly trained resource there already? Do you alert all defib cars in the area while sending an ambulance as well, while depriving other areas of the services? We all have limited resources and cannot send "all units" to every call. You'd have a convoy whizzing around then.

Does the guard leave a crime scene or release a suspect to attend to a medical emergency?

Well as hard as you find it to swallow, it happens. It is not like the Gardai calling DFB to preserve a scene, arrest someone, sign a passport form. DFB personnel are not qualified to preserve a scene, Dont have the power to arrest someone and are not recognised as a witness for a passport form. Gardai who have underwent the Defib course are qualified to use it.

You are correct, there is no guarantee that Garda vehicles will be near by or that there will be trained Gardai in them. Does that mean that they shouldn't try and contact them though?

Your missing the point, if DFB are looking for a Garda defib then obviously there is some problem with their own/ cant get there quick enough/ is being used elsewhere/ vehicle broken down etc etc

No all cars are not alerted, its quite simple

Control: Any cars within vicinty of fake st with a Defib on board? DFB require assistance with XXXX

Garda car with Defib: blah blah blah we'll go

There ya go, one car goes, not exactly a convoy... why would Gardai leave a crime scene or release a suspect? If your available, your available, if not, your not. Simple as.

DrIndy

I don't think AGS should respond to an arrest call, but if multiple services are mobilised to a scene (such as a crash) - the garda car will probably be the first there as they are faster and AGS are used to driving hard when needed. Hence the point of a first responder - all personnell who could be first on the scene should be trained in appropriate first aid and Basic Trauma & Life Support and be able to recognise and use a defib where appropriate.

It would be expensive to install a defib in every AGS vehicle on the presumption that every now and then, they may be 1)called out (how many cardiac arrests are there where AGS are needed?) 2)first on the scene - but when time is life, it may be a good idea.

Full training in basic life support and CPR is an absolute must though - and importantly - confidence to use it and know you are doing the right thing..

sdanseo

Can someone explain to me why an ambo AND tender are sent to a cardiac call when presumably both have the nessecary equipment and an ambulance would get there faster? Fair enough they would be much busier, but are fire calls THAT rare? My civvy mind cant grasp that one.