Why did Jesus have to die to save mankind?

axer · 03-09-2009 10:57PM

lugha wrote: »

Not exactly AFAIK. I thought the idea of the trinity explains this?

Yes, jesus is god and god is jesus but jesus is not the holy spirit or the father.

My point is that if jesus is god and god is jesus then god chose that jesus should die i.e. god/jesus committed suicide at least indirectly if not directly thus jesus/god was a sinner and a mortal sinner at that. So how does a sinner save mankind from sin?

lugha · 03-09-2009 11:09PM

axer wrote: »

Yes, jesus is god and god is jesus but jesus is not the holy spirit or the father.

My point is that if jesus is god and god is jesus then god chose that jesus should die i.e. god/jesus committed suicide at least indirectly if not directly thus jesus/god was a sinner and a mortal sinner at that. So how does a sinner save mankind from sin?

Yes but the purpose of this was to save others. You would not describe as suicide a soldier giving his life to save others on a battle field. Would you consider such a soldier, if he were R.C., to be guilty of a mortal sin?

Anyway, as Jesus rose again you can hardly call it suicide.

axer · 03-09-2009 11:11PM

lugha wrote: »

Yes but the purpose of this was to save others. You would not describe as suicide a soldier giving his life to save others on a battle field. Would you consider such a soldier, if he were R.C., to be guilty of a mortal sin?

Yes, killing is a mortal sin from what I kno. Its not me thats making these rules.

Pompey Magnus · 03-09-2009 11:36PM

lugha wrote: »

Yes but the purpose of this was to save others. You would not describe as suicide a soldier giving his life to save others on a battle field. Would you consider such a soldier, if he were R.C., to be guilty of a mortal sin?

Jesus went into the Jewish Temple at the most incendiary time of the year when Jerusalem was a tinderbox, he caused a violent disturbance against legitimate money changers who kept the Temple pure from idolatrous coins (albiet probably a minor disturbance), and he refused to deny that he made claims of himself that were a political offence in the Roman Empire. There is big differences between Jesus' planned actions and those of a soldier or a firefighter who act on the spur of the moment.

Anyway, as Jesus rose again you can hardly call it suicide.

Well Christians believe that everyone will be resurrected from the dead, including those who commit suicide, don't they? So I don't see what that matters.

JimiTime · 04-09-2009 12:00AM

Charco wrote: »

Jesus went into the Jewish Temple at the most incendiary time of the year when Jerusalem was a tinderbox, he caused a violent disturbance against legitimate money changers who kept the Temple pure from idolatrous coins (albiet probably a minor disturbance), and he refused to deny that he made claims of himself that were a political offence in the Roman Empire. There is big differences between Jesus' planned actions and those of a soldier or a firefighter who act on the spur of the moment.

Just to be clear on your position, you too believe that if the biblical record is correct, then Jesus comitted suicide yeah?

Pompey Magnus · 04-09-2009 12:41AM

JimiTime wrote: »

Just to be clear on your position, you too believe that if the biblical record is correct, then Jesus comitted suicide yeah?

I believe that Jesus was fully aware that his actions in the Temple would inevitably provoke a response from the authorities and were planned and carried out at the exact time of the year to ensure such a response, it wasn't just coincidental that he chose the Passover and Jesus was not an idiot, he would have known it wouldn't go unnoticed or unpunished.

I also believe that he, like most sane people of the time, would have been aware that being accused of being a king in the Roman Empire when one was not an officially appointed client king was a capital offence which would not be treated lightly by the Romans.

I also assume that Jesus would have been aware that Pontius Pilate had a reputation of being an extremely harsh prefect, one who at this stage may have been known to frequently execute troublemakers, often without trial as Philo described him.

With all these things put together I believe that Jesus knew his violent actions and treasonous claims would very likely lead to his execution. I think this is a fair description of suicide by proxy.

JimiTime · 04-09-2009 12:55AM

Charco wrote: »

I believe that Jesus was fully aware that his actions in the Temple would inevitably provoke a response from the authorities and were planned and carried out at the exact time of the year to ensure such a response, it wasn't just coincidental that he chose the Passover and Jesus was not an idiot, he would have known it wouldn't go unnoticed or unpunished.

I also believe that he, like most sane people of the time, would have been aware that being accused of being a king in the Roman Empire when one was not an officially appointed client king was a capital offence which would not be treated lightly by the Romans.

I also assume that Jesus would have been aware that Pontius Pilate had a reputation of being an extremely harsh prefect, one who at this stage may have been known to frequently execute troublemakers, often without trial as Philo described him.

With all these things put together I believe that Jesus knew his violent actions and treasonous claims would very likely lead to his execution. I think this is a fair description of suicide by proxy.

Cheers for the reply.

lugha · 04-09-2009 08:51AM

Charco wrote: »

Jesus went into the Jewish Temple at the most incendiary time of the year when Jerusalem was a tinderbox, he caused a violent disturbance against legitimate money changers who kept the Temple pure from idolatrous coins (albiet probably a minor disturbance), and he refused to deny that he made claims of himself that were a political offence in the Roman Empire. There is big differences between Jesus' planned actions and those of a soldier or a firefighter who act on the spur of the moment.

You could easily imagine a scenario where a soldier might execute a premeditated plan to draw the fire of the enemy in order to enable colleagues to move from a perilous to a safe position unhindered. This would be close enough to the story of Jesus but would never be referred to as suicide.

Charco wrote: »

Well Christians believe that everyone will be resurrected from the dead, including those who commit suicide, don't they? So I don't see what that matters.

I don’t think you can discount the time frame completely. If a surgeon renders a patient clinically dead for a few minutes during an operation you would hardly accuse him of murder?

Zombrex · 04-09-2009 09:39AM

JimiTime wrote: »

Just to be clear on your position, you too believe that if the biblical record is correct, then Jesus comitted suicide yeah?

Out of curiosity do many Christians actually have an issue with that idea?

Personally I don't see what the big deal would be over the idea that he committed suicide (in the form of death by cop), plenty of people have done so heroically and sacrificially, particularly if the person doesn't believe suicide is actually a sin.

kelly1 · 04-09-2009 10:34AM

Charco wrote: »

With all these things put together I believe that Jesus knew his violent actions and treasonous claims would very likely lead to his execution. I think this is a fair description of suicide by proxy.

Hello Charco, I think this is a distorted way to look at what Jesus came to do. What Jesus did was to tell the Truth and He was persecuted and put to death for doing so.

The Pharisees were more concerned with the law than with loving God and helping the common Jew to do the same. They put barriers between people and God and Jesus upbraided them for it. They gave a false notion of what God was about. Jesus gave a true picture of God and the Pharisees felt threatened so they reacted with violence.

Just on a general note, I haven't been following this thread, but I just want to say that Jesus didn't just come to save us from damnation. He came "that we might have life and have it to the full". And by full me meant a share in God's infinite divine life. A wonderful proposition if you ask me!

JimiTime · 04-09-2009 10:40AM

Wicknight wrote: »

Out of curiosity do many Christians actually have an issue with that idea?

Personally I don't see what the big deal would be over the idea that he committed suicide (in the form of death by cop), plenty of people have done so heroically and sacrificially, particularly if the person doesn't believe suicide is actually a sin.

It was ABSOLUTELY NOT suicide. Having an issue with suicide is nothing to do with it. TBH, I wouldn't argue with Axer, Charco or your own position on it though.

axer · 04-09-2009 10:54AM

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello Charco, I think this is a distorted way to look at what Jesus came to do. What Jesus did was to tell the Truth and He was persecuted and put to death for doing so.

god put itself in that position - it chose to die - it chose to kill itself on earth. That is suicide thus that would make god is a sinner - a mortal sinner.

kelly1 wrote: »

The Pharisees were more concerned with the law than with loving God and helping the common Jew to do the same. They put barriers between people and God and Jesus upbraided them for it. They gave a false notion of what God was about. Jesus gave a true picture of God and the Pharisees felt threatened so they reacted with violence.

god put jesus (who is actually god) on earth to be killed by the pharisees. if jesus is not god then god is at least a killer (a mortal sinner) or else god committed suicide via jesus.

kelly1 wrote: »

Just on a general note, I haven't been following this thread, but I just want to say that Jesus didn't just come to save us from damnation. He came "that we might have life and have it to the full". And by full me meant a share in God's infinite divine life. A wonderful proposition if you ask me!

we had life anyway before he landed on earth. we had life long before he landed on earth.

JimiTime wrote: »

It was ABSOLUTELY NOT suicide. Having an issue with suicide is nothing to do with it. TBH, I wouldn't argue with Axer, Charco or your own position on it though.

its hard to argue when you have don't have an argument.

how does a mortal sinner help or save mankind?

so did god kill or commit suicide?

is god by its own standards/assertions in heaven or hell?

kelly1 · 04-09-2009 11:20AM

Axer, that post isn't worth replying to.

JimiTime · 04-09-2009 11:25AM

axer wrote: »

its hard to argue when you have don't have an argument.

Precisely.

axer · 04-09-2009 11:30AM

kelly1 wrote: »

Axer, that post isn't worth replying to.

a bit too much harsh truth?

god did kill his only son - christians believe that god sacrificed his only son. thus god is a killer. thus god is a mortal sinner. is this incorrect?

kelly1 · 04-09-2009 11:46AM

axer wrote: »

a bit too much harsh truth?

No. Your view is horribly distorted, and a reply from me is not likely to make any difference to you.

axer wrote: »

god did kill his only son - christians believe that god sacrificed his only son. thus god is a killer. thus god is a mortal sinner. is this incorrect?

God didn't kill Jesus. We humans did! The sinful men whom Jesus came to save and give eternal life, killed him because they felt threatened by the Truth!

I was the Father's will that Jesus should die to save us but Jesus didn't commit suicide. He willingly did His Father's will and knew He would have to die in doing so.

But looks what was achieved by Jesus' death! He saved billions of souls from Hell and what's more these souls now have or will have a share in God's very inner life and a share in Jesus' glory.

God's justice must be satisfied, he doesn't brush problems under the carpet. The scales must be balanced. And the great thing about God is that He is so merciful that He didn't ask us to make amends. He sent His Son to die in our place!

Time to take off the sh*t tinted specs....

axer · 04-09-2009 12:00PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Time to take off the sh*t tinted specs....

I didn't attack you so why are you attacking me?

kelly1 wrote: »

No. Your view is horribly distorted, and a reply from me is not likely to make any difference to you.

My view is based on logic. The same logic you used for below:

kelly1 wrote: »

God didn't kill Jesus. .... He sent His Son to die in our place!

Do you see where the point is being missed. You say it there yourself. god sent his son to die. That is killing someone. god killed his son thus that makes god a mortal sinner - I believe the punishment for mortal sinners is hell iirc. I wonder who is running heaven in his absence or does it just keep going without god.

Can you see that you have agreed with me in your last post without realising it. Jesus, according to the bible, did not want to die but god killed him anyway. That is a mortal sin in christian's books - morally and ethically wrong in my book. How does someone like that then have the nerve to preach about sin?

kelly1 · 04-09-2009 12:22PM

axer wrote: »

I didn't attack you so why are you attacking me?

I'm not really. I just get pi**ed off/emotional when people try to make God out to be the bad buy when we're the ones who have done the wrong.

axer wrote: »

My view is based on logic. The same logic you used for below:

Do you see where the point is being missed. You say it there yourself. god sent his son to die. That is killing someone. god killed his son thus that makes god a mortal sinner - I believe the punishment for mortal sinners is hell iirc. I wonder who is running heaven in his absence or does it just keep going without god.

Strictly speaking God didn't kill Jesus. The Romans did following the demands of the Pharisees. What God did was an act of mercy, not a mortal sin as you put it. You're accusing God of sinning when you should be searching your own heart. God's justice must be satisfied and there was no other way to achieve this. Huge crimes demand huge atonement. This talk of suicide is bull.

axer wrote: »

Can you see that you have agreed with me in your last post without realising it. Jesus, according to the bible, did not want to die but god killed him anyway.

That's where you're wrong. Jesus willingly went to the cross out of love for us. He complained only one and then quickly agreed to do His Father's will anyway.

axer wrote: »

That is a mortal sin in christian's books - morally and ethically wrong in my book. How does someone like that then have the nerve to preach about sin?

The mortal sins were those committed by His executioners and those who wanted Him killed.

Pompey Magnus · 04-09-2009 12:32PM

kelly1 wrote: »

The Pharisees were more concerned with the law than with loving God and helping the common Jew to do the same. They put barriers between people and God and Jesus upbraided them for it. They gave a false notion of what God was about. Jesus gave a true picture of God and the Pharisees felt threatened so they reacted with violence.

Just to point out it wasn't the Pharisees who had Jesus killed, it was the Sadduccees and the Romans.

That said I do believe you have a very unfair view of the Pharisees, they were well respected by the common people and lived in a way which they believed was how God wanted them to behave. Most Pharisees were sincere and devout lovers of God. If they were incorrect it is hard to blame them, it was God who was at fault for being too vague in his expectations.

If an infinitely intelligent being gives a set of often very specific rules which he orders his creation to live by, yet leaves ambiguities in his demands, it is hard to see how these people are at fault if they get it wrong. He is the all knowing diety and they are very limited humans. If a dog owner told his dog to "Sit" and the dog gets it wrong and rolls over you would be disgusted if his owner then got mad and started to viciously beat the dog. Multiply the intellectual inequalities in that comparison by a million and you still don't get near the gap between the wisdom of God and the wisdom of man.

lugha wrote:

I don’t think you can discount the time frame completely. If a surgeon renders a patient clinically dead for a few minutes during an operation you would hardly accuse him of murder?

There is a big difference between a few minutes and almost 2 days that Jesus was dead for.

Plowman · 04-09-2009 01:19PM

This post has been deleted.

Pompey Magnus · 04-09-2009 01:25PM

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I assume he is pointing out the Christian belief that Jesus is God. It is one entity and not seperate ones.

axer · 04-09-2009 01:27PM

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not really. I just get pi**ed off/emotional when people try to make God out to be the bad buy when we're the ones who have done the wrong.

god and jesus already knew what was going to happen so how can they blame man for the situation god created. Again, it was god that killed jesus.

kelly1 wrote: »

Strictly speaking God didn't kill Jesus.

but he did kill jesus not strictly speaking.

kelly1 wrote: »

What God did was an act of mercy, not a mortal sin as you put it.

it doesn't matter whether you consider it an act of mercy. the fact remains god planned the death of at least one human - god is a killer. killing is a mortal sin.

kelly1 wrote: »

You're accusing God of sinning when you should be searching your own heart. God's justice must be satisfied and there was no other way to achieve this. Huge crimes demand huge atonement. This talk of suicide is bull.

Well it was either suicide or god was a killer. but then again god is not the only killer. take moses for example he killed people aswell. I don't understand how these things can be take as good examples or how they can preach about sin when they are bigger sinners than most humans? I don't need to search my heart since I am not a hypocrite like them.

kelly1 wrote: »

That's where you're wrong. Jesus willingly went to the cross out of love for us. He complained only one and then quickly agreed to do His Father's will anyway.

my understanding is that jesus didn't really have a choice. the fact that it is mentioned in the bible that he didn't want to die shows that he knew he didnt want a choice just like in cults where children do things because they feel like they have to.

kelly1 wrote: »

The mortal sins were those committed by His executioners and those who wanted Him killed.

god wanted jesus killed so again by your definition god committed a mortal sin. if god didn't want him killed then jesus would not have died.

axer · 04-09-2009 01:34PM

Charco wrote: »

I assume he is pointing out the Christian belief that Jesus is God. It is one entity and not seperate ones.

Yes, that is correct. Either god committed suicide (if god and jesus are the same) since god chose to sacrifice jesus thus god is really just committing suicide or god had his son jesus killed. either way god killed someone or had someone killed = mortal sin.

Pompey Magnus · 04-09-2009 01:36PM

axer wrote: »

god wanted jesus killed so again by your definition god committed a mortal sin. if god didn't want him killed then jesus would not have died.

Good point. And an add on to that, surely Christians would have wanted him killed too? I mean if his short death saved as many souls as they claim then its a small sacrifice to pay. Are they committing mortal sins too?

If I knew for a fact that my death would save countless souls in an afterlife that I knew existed, and I also knew that I would be brought back to life less than 48 hours later then I would be happy enough to sign up to that deal. It always made me a bit confused when Jesus asked God to give him a way out of doing it and only went through with it because he didn't get his way, it seemed incredibly selfishness to me.

Mark Hamill · 04-09-2009 01:39PM

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not really. I just get pi**ed off/emotional when people try to make God out to be the bad buy when we're the ones who have done the wrong.

We did exactly what god knew we would. He could have changed his actions at any time, yet he chose not to because he wanted Jesus to die.

kelly1 wrote: »

Strictly speaking God didn't kill Jesus. The Romans did following the demands of the Pharisees. What God did was an act of mercy, not a mortal sin as you put it. You're accusing God of sinning when you should be searching your own heart. God's justice must be satisfied and there was no other way to achieve this. Huge crimes demand huge atonement. This talk of suicide is bull.

God would have known that Jesus was destined to die at the hands of the Romans before he even sent the angel to tell Mary she was going to get pregnant. God sent Jesus, a part of himself to earth knowning he would die, wanting him to die, to sate a mad justice god needs to just out because mankind failed a test set up by god who knew we would fail it before it even begun.

kelly1 wrote: »

That's where you're wrong. Jesus willingly went to the cross out of love for us. He complained only one and then quickly agreed to do His Father's will anyway.

If Jesus and God are the same entity, why would Jesus have complained to himself?

kelly1 wrote: »

The mortal sins were those committed by His executioners and those who wanted Him killed.

God knowingly sent himself to his own death to atone for a "crime" for which he wanted justice for.

Plowman · 04-09-2009 01:49PM

This post has been deleted.

Zombrex · 04-09-2009 01:50PM

JimiTime wrote: »

It was ABSOLUTELY NOT suicide. Having an issue with suicide is nothing to do with it.

Ok, take that as a yes :P

Seriously though, comments such as "ABSOLUTELY NOT suicide" are as unhelpful and silly as Axers. Under certain usages of the term it could easily be considered suicide, Jesus went to Earth to die, position himself in such a way that he would be killed, offered no resistance to this nor attempted to stop or avoid it.

It was a sacrificial act, resulting in his death, orchestrated and willingly entered into by himself that required his death. I can certainly see how people would call that suicide.

Really not following what the big deal is.

axer · 04-09-2009 01:52PM

Wicknight wrote: »

I can certainly see how people would call that suicide.

Then how is my overall point silly since I am just highlighting that either it was a suicide or a killing by god. That is my underlying point. Both result in a mortal sin since someone was killed by god either way.

Zombrex · 04-09-2009 01:56PM

kelly1 wrote: »

God didn't kill Jesus. We humans did! The sinful men whom Jesus came to save and give eternal life, killed him because they felt threatened by the Truth!

I was the Father's will that Jesus should die to save us but Jesus didn't commit suicide. He willingly did His Father's will and knew He would have to die in doing so.

But looks what was achieved by Jesus' death! He saved billions of souls from Hell and what's more these souls now have or will have a share in God's very inner life and a share in Jesus' glory.

That is irrelevant to the issue of whether he committed suicide though.

This is what I don't get, what do you think it means to say that Jesus' death was suicide.

At the end of the great 2 part Borg episode in Star Trek NG, as the Borg ship is entering Earth orbit, Riker orders that the Enterprise prepare to ram the Borg ship at full warp. That would hopefully destroy the ship, but also destroy the Enterprise. That would be suicide. But no one thinks it would be a bad thing, in fact it would be considered highly heroic and sacrificial

I hate this dogmatic distortion of words you guys go through every time you find something that you think is insulting or displeasing.

Fanny Cradock · 04-09-2009 02:00PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Out of curiosity do many Christians actually have an issue with that idea?

Personally I don't see what the big deal would be over the idea that he committed suicide (in the form of death by cop), plenty of people have done so heroically and sacrificially, particularly if the person doesn't believe suicide is actually a sin.

Yes.

I think that Charco's logic is way off. There are many possible scenarios where one could imagine a person willingly laying down their life to save others that wasn't a spur of the moment decision. I just don't see how the time taken to arrive at the decision to die is a factor in deciding if it's a suicide or an act of unbridled heroism or whatever. I mean, what time limit is one to use before one death is self-sacrifice and the other is suicide?

Quite apart from this, I imagine that that the subject of suicide and the subject of self-sacrifice leading to death are different. I mean this in a non-judgemental way, but it seems to me that suicide focuses on the individual and their pain, whereas the focus of a self-sacrificial death is on others.

One only has to imagine the different reactions to a suicide and compare them to somebody who died a "hero's"death to see the difference.

Quite aside from the fact that I think the suggestion is utter tosh for reasons of bad logic, I will admit that there is part of me that struggles to shed the shameful and dishonourable connotations our society generally associates with suicide. Though I will qualify this by saying that I find such connotations quite unwelcome and unhelpful if we are to address the problem of suicide.

Why did Jesus have to die to save mankind?

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