UCD Students and The Lisbon Treaty

Het-Field

In 2008 I posed the same question : How do UCD students intend to vote on October 2nd ?

Although I have not been a Student in UCD since 2006, I shall advance my preference, and declare myself a Yes Voter !

What about all the UCD Posters here ?

Mr.Nice Guy

I will be voting No and I consider it an absolute disgrace that the original referendum result was not respected.

ANTIFA!

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I will be voting No and I consider it an absolute disgrace that the original referendum result was not respected.

Why do you keep saying that? It was respected, if it wasn't respected we wouldn't be voting again on another treaty, the treaty would have been just put through anyway. I've seen on the EU forum posters explain this to you and yet you still persist saying the same thing. Its probably just an anti-EU mindset you have anyway.

Mr.Nice Guy

ANTIFA! wrote: »

Why do you keep saying that? It was respected, if it wasn't respected we wouldn't be voting again on another treaty, the treaty would have been just put through anyway. I've seen on the EU forum posters explain this to you and yet you still persist saying the same thing. Its probably just an anti-EU mindset you have anyway.

If it was respected Jose Manuel Barroso would not have made a speech before the result was even officially declared at Dublin Castle insisting that the Lisbon Treaty's ratification process would continue regardless. We all know full well if the Treaty had been endorsed in the original referendum there would have been no second Treaty, and that if people on the No side had sought one they would have been laughed at and told to hit the road.

If people want to vote Yes that's fair enough but please don't treat the rest of us like mugs. As I've said before, with regards to EU democracy it can be summed up as follows:

"I may not agree with what you have to say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it in which case I'll make you vote again until I do."

If I have an anti-EU mindset it is because I find such contempt for democratic principles to be anathema to my own. For the record, I believe the people will endorse it this time around although I imagine there will be a lower turnout than the first referendum - which I think would be ironic considering the main reason given to us for having to vote on the Nice Treaty a second time was the original referendum's low turnout.

To be perfectly honest after this referendum I feel I'm going to avoid voting again in future, having up to now voted at every possible opportunity since I turned 18. This whole charade has left me feeling very disillusioned with politics in this country and with the attitude shown towards democracy in general.

I always felt voting was important but now the mantra that my vote matters feels a very hollow one to me. It seems a vote only matters when you vote the "right way". That's the impression I now have.

Anyway that's my take on it. I'm sure people will disagree with my views which is fair enough. I'm not interested in going back and forth on this as I've seen in the past these threads tend to get quite bitter and result in numerous rolleyes smilies, patronising jibes and so on. (From both sides)

Part of me is resigned to what's to come and I just want the whole sorry mess to be over and done with frankly.

El Siglo

I'm voting 'Níl/Non/Nein/Nee/No/Nej/Ei/Δεν/Nie', simple reason; 53% of the electorate turned out last time and 53.2% voted No, and as the anti-date rape slogan goes: "No Means No!":D

bluepencilcase

Proudly Voting Yes

errlloyd

I am voting yes for various real reasons, but also because I think the no campaign is a disgrace to our country and it's people. The blatant lies and falsehoods that come from the no camp are something that physically angers me.

Groups like COIR who can literally say whatever they like go ahead and spread rumours about murdering babies and forced conscription, these are lies.

Have any of you ever debated in EU format before? Its ****ing ****, nothing gets done. The current set up is designed for a much smaller group of nations who are all working together. As the EU expands the fact that each nation has a veto will begin to work against Ireland.

If we need to make changes to the open border legislation in the future for example, whats to stop Estonia vetoing every time because its good for their immigration, or maybe we want to change the way money is allocated, whats to stop Croatia just vetoing constantly because they are a net gainer.

And it won't stop either, the EU will just expand, it will always have weak nations which will act selfishly, by doing this we stop one nation holding the EU ransom.

However, what are we doing. Ironically we are holding the very legislation that stops a nation holding the EU ransom, ransom. Ireland are stopping the progress, Ireland are holding back success, and I am ashamed.

Mushy

errlloyd wrote: »

I am voting yes for various real reasons, but also because I think the no campaign is a disgrace to our country and it's people. The blatant lies and falsehoods that come from the no camp are something that physically angers me.

Groups like COIR who can literally say whatever they like go ahead and spread rumours about murdering babies and forced conscription, these are lies.

Have any of you ever debated in EU format before? Its ****ing ****, nothing gets done. The current set up is designed for a much smaller group of nations who are all working together. As the EU expands the fact that each nation has a veto will begin to work against Ireland.

If we need to make changes to the open border legislation in the future for example, whats to stop Estonia vetoing every time because its good for their immigration, or maybe we want to change the way money is allocated, whats to stop Croatia just vetoing constantly because they are a net gainer.

And it won't stop either, the EU will just expand, it will always have weak nations which will act selfishly, by doing this we stop one nation holding the EU ransom.

However, what are we doing. Ironically we are holding the very legislation that stops a nation holding the EU ransom, ransom. Ireland are stopping the progress, Ireland are holding back success, and I am ashamed.

I'm still not 100% sure on which way I'd be voting, but would most likely lean towards the No side. But groups like Coir are ridiculous. Not all No people would feel the same way.

I'd be in agreement a bit more with Mr. Nice Guy and his stance. Just waiting for us to vote Yes on the matter. The finest form of democracy there:rolleyes: One thing going against the Yes side is that the government support it, which may sway voters in voting against what they want.

Mardy Bum

I'd rather have the country ran from Europe than by the current shower we are only isolating ourselves further from Europe by voting No. The only reason we still are not stuck in the dredges of the 80s is because of Europe.

Mushy

Yeah thats why I wouldn't be totally against a Yes victory.

JoeJC

Ill be voting NO on October 2nd. I think its terrible the way the treaty is being rehashed and given to us again. Not an article in the text has changed; we voted no once and should not have to do so again.

If the EU respected democracy and the voice of small nations, it wouldnt patronise us in such an undemocratic way. We have a duty to democracy, to this country and the future of Europe to vote No.

Passive dictatorship (ie. only one way to vote) should not be tolerated by the people of Ireland.

Ajfunky

I have no idea how to vote, because i have no idea what has or hasnt been exempted,agreed upon or made-favourable for us anymore. So many campaigners saying so many different things, its just confusing now!

The one thing ill say is, the yes campaign is EXTREMELY poor. Every time the government speak, its random nice sounding phrases with zero facts. The billboards go as far to say "Its simple, we're stronger in europe". I feel this reflects the governments first yes attempt, basically saying "we read it so you dont have to.".

This could be a seriously deciding factor, because the scaremongering tactics of the no vote. Although im guessing our minimum wage isnt gonna drop to 1.84 and that we wont lose 200 billion in farming, the people who arent arsed researching but will still vote, could definitely be swayed by these posters.

At the same time, i dont think i'll vote, because the government might think my opinion is wrong, and have me change my opinion to suit them. Ridiculous.

dyl10

I am voting yes.

I feel the treaty is pro-europe and I am pro-europe.

Although I 100% agree that asking us to vote again is undemocratic bordering on disgraceful.

If we pass it this time, will the "NO" side be given an option of requesting another referendum so they can put more effort into their campaign the third time around?

ChocolateSauce

I'll be voting yes, and I find it disappointing that young people are more likely to vote no than older people.

Older people frequently have a better grasp of politics.

TheJeanGenie

dyl10 wrote: »

I am voting yes.

I feel the treaty is pro-europe and I am pro-europe.

Although I 100% agree that asking us to vote again is undemocratic bordering on disgraceful.

If we pass it this time, will the "NO" side be given an option of requesting another referendum so they can put more effort into their campaign the third time around?

Well the amount of people who claimed not to know what they were voting for kind of indicated that the people needed to know more about the treaty and a second chance to vote. A lot of people merely voted 'no' because they just didn't know what the vote was for.

Personally I'm delighted the EU are giving us a second vote, we're buggered without them

TDOie

I'm voting yes because I'm hardcore like that.

JoeJC

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

Well the amount of people who claimed not to know what they were voting for kind of indicated that the people needed to know more about the treaty and a second chance to vote. A lot of people merely voted 'no' because they just didn't know what the vote was for.

Are you basing this comment on anything aside from your own private assumptions? Do you have a scrap of evidence to back up your accusation that a large bulk of the Irish people voted only out of ignorance or are you just broadcasting your own subjective beliefs as a matter of fact?

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

Personally I'm delighted the EU are giving us a second vote, we're buggered without them

How generous it is of the EU to take our referendum, disregard its result so blatantly, and throw the Treaty back at us, subtly threatening dire consequences for our people if we dont give them the result they desire this time around!

The top-dog Europhiles within the EU couldn't give a toss about the voice of small nations like Ireland. I can't understand how you think the EU is doing us a favour by forcing this state to vote on the same Treaty again.

And we're "buggered" without them? That is why we should ratify the Lisbon Treaty? Because if we dont, they'll kick us out? Surely we should be focusing on the Treaty itself, not making up our minds on the basis of what might happen, lest we reject the document. Right?

Pride Fighter

Voting no. Mainly regarding issues such as workers rights and neutrality/military spending. I thought COIR were an absolute disgrace with their posters. Then I saw FF and FG's today. They were spouting such nonsense that a yes will save our economy. Spain voted yes, their economy has tanked worse than ours. More lies by the FF/FG political elites.

Tom65

Yes voter here.

After the last referendum, they had an inquiry into reasons behind the 'No' - top of the list was people not understanding the treaty. Following that, the government got guarantees regarding other concerns. With further explanation on the treaty, along with those guarantees, they've returned for a second referendum. That is democratic.

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Spain voted yes, their economy has tanked worse than ours. More lies by the FF/FG political elites.

They don't mean it in some magical, "vote Yes and BAM! - economic recovery!" way. They mean our recovery is more likely as a full fledged part of the EU.

TheJeanGenie

JoeJC wrote: »

Are you basing this comment on anything aside from your own private assumptions? Do you have a scrap of evidence to back up your accusation that a large bulk of the Irish people voted only out of ignorance or are you just broadcasting your own subjective beliefs as a matter of fact?




How generous it is of the EU to take our referendum, disregard its result so blatantly, and throw the Treaty back at us, subtly threatening dire consequences for our people if we dont give them the result they desire this time around!

The top-dog Europhiles within the EU couldn't give a toss about the voice of small nations like Ireland. I can't understand how you think the EU is doing us a favour by forcing this state to vote on the same Treaty again.

And we're "buggered" without them? That is why we should ratify the Lisbon Treaty? Because if we dont, they'll kick us out? Surely we should be focusing on the Treaty itself, not making up our minds on the basis of what might happen, lest we reject the document. Right?

If you want evidence then; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4728353.ece

Time Magazine

I will be voting Yes.

Why? Because within 18 months of the 2007 General Election, it was quite clear that in light of the economic climate that the government had lost the backing of its people. I would have liked a General Election, even though we had elected that Dáil to sit a five year term. Events occurred and people had changed their minds.

That's the crucial thing. People changed their minds. People changed their minds on divorce. People changed their minds on Nice. Similarly I've read quite a few opinions of people who have indicated that they've changed their minds on Lisbon. For many reasons: my parents have done so because I taught them what a Commissioner really is; others because they realise we will lose our Commissioner if we vote No; others because they don't want to chance it because of the economic situation; others because they trust that the legal guarantees mitigate any potential risks; and so on.

Due to the shift in the mood of the nation, I called for the government to resign about six months ago. It would be hypocritical of me to therefore blindly argue that "The people have spoken." I think a far more accurate description of the world is that "The people have changed their minds."

Pride Fighter

Most students on here appear to be voting yes.

It seems that students are more apathetic and right wing than our predecessors. This is probably due to declining education standards in 3rd level, a lack of people studying the liberal arts and a proliferation of Austrian school economics graduates.

Time Magazine

Pride Fighter wrote: »

It seems that students are more apathetic [these days]

This is almost certainly true. Both my parents' parents had "dealings" with British forces in this country, whereas my parents themselves were born during the War and grew up with the serious threat of the Soviet Union. I could hardly be considered politically apathetic, but is it any wonder that I'm more apathetic than they would be? Had I been born in their time, I would be more active. There is a less pressing need these days, thankfully.

and right wing than our predecessors.

Are you flippin' mental?

This is probably due to declining education standards in 3rd level

Lol. Yes, that must be it, you needn't provide a reference either because it couldn't possibly be because we disagree with you.

a lack of people studying the liberal arts and a proliferation of Austrian school economics graduates.

I have yet to meet an Irish economics graduate who's anywhere near the Austrian school. Have you? And you know what Austrians would think of the ECB and Lisbon by extension, right?

Pride Fighter

I like your insights the economist. You are right some of the time and seem a good guy for a right of centre man. Good luck. I'll buy you a pint when the no vote is carried again:)

Time Magazine

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I like your insights the economist. You are right some of the time and seem a good guy for a right of centre man.

Lol, and you seem like a nice lad who'd speak sense if only he were belted over the head a few times with heavy economics textbooks :pac:

Good luck. I'll buy you a pint when the no vote is carried again:)

Drinks will be on me if that happens because I will again be voting Yes but insuring myself by betting on No.

JoeJC

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

If you want evidence then; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4728353.ece

Thank you for not dealing with the vast bulk of my post.

I clicked on the link, ready to except defeat. But then suddenly, in the first paragraph of the text, I saw the term, "government research" and then later on, "government poll".
The last time I checked, the government was one the most notable/notorious of the Yes Campaigners and so any statistics which are drawn up by them in conjunction with a hired research firm are automatically tainted and partial.

That said, if these statistics were accurate, which they are not in my opinion, the fact that the electorate voted out of idiocy would be irrelevant. The basic principal of a referendum is to allow a population to make a conclusive and final decision on an issue, regardless of the reasoning behind that decision.
You yourself indirectly admitted that you would vote Yes on Lisbon 2, not because of the content of the Treaty but because of the possible negative consequences which would result from a second No.

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

I'm delighted the EU are giving us a second vote, we're buggered without them

It seems that you yourself will be voting for all the wrong reasons.

KeyLimePie

some american was like to me tonight...can i ask you a serious question...what's the lisbon treaty.........and i was like...you know what i don't know but it's a good thing

Handsome Bob

I'll put my hands up and admit that I voted No last time however I put that down to the Yes campaign's inability to sell their argument. I have to say that again, I think the Yes campaign is failing to impress. All I am seeing are half assed posters saying "Vote Yes to save the economy!" and "We belong!" On the other hand the No campaign have put up posters that could strike fear into a lot of people such as "Germany's say - 17%, Ireland's say - 0.8%". Now that is most likely scaremongering and taken out of context, but all the same they are effective tactics. Spin and underhanded maybe, but effective all the same.

I plan on reading the actual treaty, but right now I am leaning towards voting yes.

errlloyd

I know you're all going to say what you like about Europe not getting democracy, but after the Czech change of leadership, Ireland are the only nation holding this up. Every single other nation ratified easily, some like Germany almost unanimously.

This referendum is just a formality, its not that our government don't care what we think, its that we don't actually know what is best for us. At the end of the day our government (and the EU) is run by very smart people who do this full time, they're not trying to **** over Ireland, they live here too. Why not just trust them this once.

Think about it, if Lisbon was going to destroy minimum wage would Labour support it? No, if it was going to lose us massive cash for FG support it? No.

In fact if there was any reason not to, surely one political party would take this is an opportunity to oppose FF.

Here, you can read the treaty, its not that hard. The reason no one reads it is because it mainly just sights other treaties, which are a pain to look up.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/cg00014.en07.pdf

errlloyd

LZ5by5 wrote: »

"Germany's say - 17%, Ireland's say - 0.8%".

Actually that's true.

Our proportional representation will be around 20 times lower than Germany's, because their popular is 20 times bigger than ours. This is in the Parliament, in the commission however we still have the exact same representation as everyone else.

LZ5by5

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I think the Yes campaign is failing to impress. All I am seeing are half assed posters saying "Vote Yes to save the economy!" and "We belong!"

Voting No. We're still going to be in the EU even if we vote No...we're just saying that the Lisbon Treaty isn't good enough - and that the so-called guarantees are still not part of the Treaty itself!

The lazy feel-good posters are just the rotting cherry on top.

errlloyd

You guys think this Europe is the same as the one that was so good to you? Its not, its very different. The treaty makes this Europe workable.

Chinafoot

Voting Yes.

errlloyd

I'm mildly embarrassed, the one massive clue as to why voting No is a bad idea is clear. Its what Sinn Fein want...

Browney7

Voting yes.

Ajfunky

I just cant understand, if the treaty is so great, Why would there be those who oppose it? (this isnt rhetoric i honestly want ta know )

And someone mentioned the new legal guarantees earlier.. the fact is they arent legally binding in my understanding of them. They arent contracts, we were just *told* that these things (tax meddling, military neutrality etc.) wouldnt happen. Methinks that i'd rather have those in writing, than have the eu one day change their mind.

Am still undecided!

geuro

Ajfunky wrote: »

I just cant understand, if the treaty is so great, Why would there be those who oppose it? (this isnt rhetoric i honestly want ta know )

And someone mentioned the new legal guarantees earlier.. the fact is they arent legally binding in my understanding of them. They arent contracts, we were just *told* that these things (tax meddling, military neutrality etc.) wouldnt happen. Methinks that i'd rather have those in writing, than have the eu one day change their mind.

Am still undecided!

Direct taxation is outside the set of competencies of the EU. Regardless of whether guarantees are legal or not, this is in the treaty, as it was the first time round.

To all the "I'm voting no because we already said no and no means no" crowd - have a look at what you are voting on and make up your mind. We had two referenda on divorce too you know - was this a mistake?

errlloyd

Funky the reason they didn't have to make any changes to the treaty was because all of those things are already in it ^^. All the guarantees did was remind us of that fact.

Our Military Neutrality and taxation are not under threat at all.

Here man I know you, you're smarter than this. All the treaty really does is try cut out some of the EU bureaucracy.

Pride Fighter

errlloyd wrote: »

Funky the reason they didn't have to make any changes to the treaty was because all of those things are already in it ^^. All the guarantees did was remind us of that fact.

Our Military Neutrality and taxation are not under threat at all.

Here man I know you, you're smarter than this. All the treaty really does is try cut out some of the EU bureaucracy.

While I'd agree with you regarding tax, the treaty asks every member state to increase military spending and appoints an EU foreign affairs minister. Our neutrality is under threat with this treaty.

Fad

I will, without a shadow of a doubt, vote yes.

graduate

I reckon the CAO should abolish the change of mind procedure, as No should be No.

If you apply to a UCD programme and you aren't sure about something and you ring up and get it explained to you, it is it unreasonable to then change your mind even if UCD has not reprinted its entire documentation to meet your individual query?

Fad

graduate wrote: »

I reckon the CAO should abolish the change of mind procedure, as No should be No.

If you apply to a UCD programme and you aren't sure about something and you ring up and get it explained to you, it is it unreasonable to then change your mind even if UCD has not reprinted its entire documentation to meet your individual query?

Yes.....

Ajfunky

errlloyd wrote: »

Funky the reason they didn't have to make any changes to the treaty was because all of those things are already in it ^^. All the guarantees did was remind us of that fact.

Our Military Neutrality and taxation are not under threat at all.

Here man I know you, you're smarter than this. All the treaty really does is try cut out some of the EU bureaucracy.

If these were things that were in it already, why didnt the government say that in the first place?! i watched quite a ****load of questions and answers before the lisbon 1,and everytime it was brought up the FF candidadte would say," we are in talks with the Eu about this and it will be solved before voting" more or less.

I jus really dont understand how people could be so against something which is all positive. What do the negative side gain from telling us lies? (once again not rhetoric, i really really want to know!)

RandomName2

I'm definately voting No.

Again.

More definate than the last time.

There are so many arguments against the treaty than I have time or strength to recite.

Oh hold on! We'll be forced out of Europe if we vote no! Or maybe this is a lie... our leaders wouldn't possibly lie to us, would they, surely? :rolleyes:

I won't be overly happy if I see a 'Generation Yes' stall in the Freshers' Tent :mad:

Jev/N

RandomName2 wrote: »

I
Oh hold on! We'll be forced out of Europe if we vote no! Or maybe this is a lie... our leaders wouldn't possibly lie to us, would they, surely? :rolleyes:

And the no supporters wouldn't run a campaign of lies and half-truths would they?!

Jev/N

Just said I'd post this also:

Mr.Nice Guy

I've seen some of the signs in town from the Yes campaign the past few days. Many are along the lines of...

"We belong in Europe - vote Yes."

This of course is implying that if we vote No we will be out of Europe which is blatantly dishonest. Puts an end to that myth about the No side being the only ones spreading untruths. Both sides are guilty of it.

I also find it most amusing to hear on the news Brian Cowen telling us everything is going to be OK because he has renegotiated a new deal. Of course prior to the first referendum we were told there would be NO renegotiation and that this was it Ireland - take it or leave it. That was another lie.

To the person going on about how this Treaty makes the EU workable - yes indeed it will be much more workable - at our expense. Many times in the next few weeks you'll hear the word "streamlining" being banded about which is a polite and snappy way of saying smaller nations like Ireland will have our influence diminished, so France and Germany can claim a tighter control of the EU's direction.

Really makes me wonder why I'm about to embark on a History MA when it's becoming increasingly clear Ireland's historic story has been an ultimately pointless one. Spending all that time and energy trying to get out of a Union that won't listen to us, only to go and join another Union which won't listen to us. God Save Ireland is right.

Anonymous1987

Its a yes vote from the new UCD student.

The way I see it the no camp talked up the Lisbon treaty like it was a revolutionary treaty introducing militarisation and abortion whereas in reality its just a bit of housekeeping to cut bureacracy and improve decision making.

The yes camp seem to have turned it into a vote on the EU rather than the treaty itself probably because the reasons for voting yes aren't exactly breathtaking and at time of crisis we can look back on what the EU has done for us.

Both sides are guilty of playing on people's fears, the yes side playing on the economic consequences (the EU will not kick us out of the Euro) and the no camp on fears of a tyrannical EU answerable to no-one (if thats the case its already too late).

Best advice is to ignore both of them and try and read an unbiased independent source or even give a quick read on wikipedia (far more trustworthy than either side) and make your mind up on that.

So why vote yes? Its progress at a snails pace.

Pride Fighter

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I've seen some of the signs in town from the Yes campaign the past few days. Many are along the lines of...

"We belong in Europe - vote Yes."

This of course is implying that if we vote No we will be out of Europe which is blatantly dishonest. Puts an end to that myth about the No side being the only ones spreading untruths. Both sides are guilty of it.

I also find it most amusing to hear on the news Brian Cowen telling us everything is going to be OK because he has renegotiated a new deal. Of course prior to the first referendum we were told there would be NO renegotiation and that this was it Ireland - take it or leave it. That was another lie.

To the person going on about how this Treaty makes the EU workable - yes indeed it will be much more workable - at our expense. Many times in the next few weeks you'll hear the word "streamlining" being banded about which is a polite and snappy way of saying smaller nations like Ireland will have our influence diminished, so France and Germany can claim a tighter control of the EU's direction.

Really makes me wonder why I'm about to embark on a History MA when it's becoming increasingly clear Ireland's historic story has been an ultimately pointless one. Spending all that time and energy trying to get out of a Union that won't listen to us, only to go and join another Union which won't listen to us. God Save Ireland is right.

Dont forget voting yes is the miracle cure to fix our economy. Vote yes for jobs, vote yes for recovery. These are the lies peddled by FF and FG. Spain, Portugal and Greece have voted yes. Their economies have tanked worse than ours. Voting no will be a better bet to save our economy. That way the FF government will fall, a more competent government will take its place and Lisbon will have to re-negotiated. Re- negotiated to favour the workers and people of Europe, not the big businesses and big nation states.

errlloyd

Pride Fighter, do you actually understand how the EU works.

Yes those countries have voted yes, but they haven't reaped any benefits because nothing can happen until we vote yes. However if you want to argue that point, Germany and France were the first two countries to vote yes, and they are the first two out of recession.

Many of you haven't a clue what this whole thing is about, so let me say this.

Hundreds of MEPs and politicians in many countries all across Europe have worked for hours and hours on one document that we can all agree on which will make Europe a better place for everyone. Politicians everywhere from Germany, to the UK to Slovakia think this is an excellent idea, so much so that they have endorsed it almost unanimously.

The only other opposition was the Czech political party that got kicked out of office earlier this year.

This is not a decision on what to eat for lunch. This effects 550 million people, and it all comes down to us, a nation of little more than 4 million. If your not sure, then don't ****ing vote, because your not capable of making such a mammoth choice.

If your going to vote no you better have a good ****ing reason, forget about our government and forget about the last referendum. THIS IS NOT A DOMESTIC ISSUE. Cowen may as well be Sarkozy or Berlisconi for all we ****ing care.

Anyone here who thinks its a good idea to vote no, look at the pile of ****ing jokers who are campaigning for the no vote. Coir is an anti abortion, anti divorce child murder joke organisation, who thinks the whole world should be run by the ****ing Nazi in Rome some call the Pope. Sinn Fein are a pathetic excuse for a political party run by a man who needed Ted Kennedy's help getting into the USA because he is on a terrorist watch list. And Libertas is a CIA funded arms company who wants us to vote no because its more profitable for them.

Stop pissing around and think about the wider world for once in this discussion. This is not about Ireland, its not about you or me. There are an awful lot of people effected by this vote. I was in France when we failed the last one, and I read the papers. They were annoyed, this treaty has cost literally millions at this stage, this referendum is just a formality so please sort the dam thing out.

And last time, if your unsure DON'T VOTE.

Pride Fighter

errlloyd wrote: »

Pride Fighter, do you actually understand how the EU works.

Yes those countries have voted yes, but they haven't reaped any benefits because nothing can happen until we vote yes. However if you want to argue that point, Germany and France were the first two countries to vote yes, and they are the first two out of recession.

Many of you haven't a clue what this whole thing is about, so let me say this.

Hundreds of MEPs and politicians in many countries all across Europe have worked for hours and hours on one document that we can all agree on which will make Europe a better place for everyone. Politicians everywhere from Germany, to the UK to Slovakia think this is an excellent idea, so much so that they have endorsed it almost unanimously.

The only other opposition was the Czech political party that got kicked out of office earlier this year.

This is not a decision on what to eat for lunch. This effects 550 million people, and it all comes down to us, a nation of little more than 4 million. If your not sure, then don't ****ing vote, because your not capable of making such a mammoth choice.

If your going to vote no you better have a good ****ing reason, forget about our government and forget about the last referendum. THIS IS NOT A DOMESTIC ISSUE. Cowen may as well be Sarkozy or Berlisconi for all we ****ing care.

Anyone here who thinks its a good idea to vote no, look at the pile of ****ing jokers who are campaigning for the no vote. Coir is an anti abortion, anti divorce child murder joke organisation, who thinks the whole world should be run by the ****ing Nazi in Rome some call the Pope. Sinn Fein are a pathetic excuse for a political party run by a man who needed Ted Kennedy's help getting into the USA because he is on a terrorist watch list. And Libertas is a CIA funded arms company who wants us to vote no because its more profitable for them.

Stop pissing around and think about the wider world for once in this discussion. This is not about Ireland, its not about you or me. There are an awful lot of people effected by this vote. I was in France when we failed the last one, and I read the papers. They were annoyed, this treaty has cost literally millions at this stage, this referendum is just a formality so please sort the dam thing out.

And last time, if your unsure DON'T VOTE.

Typical shouting yes voter. I know why I am voting no. The Lisbon treaty is a neo-liberal assault on workers rights and neutrality. Far right parties like the CDU in Germany and FF and FG here support Lisbon. Thats reason enough to vote no too.