People's opinions on the DF

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Is it just me or do the general population think we are a bunch of wasters that could not fight our way out of a paper bag?

I am sick to death being asked,

"so, ur a soldier, so what do you do all day?"

or

"Have you ever killed anyone, no?, then your not a real soldier!"

or

"Do you even have bullets in your plastic rifles?"

or

"so, this is where my tax money goes, so what am I paying you for?"


Makes me want to go hatchet tbh!!:(

iceage

Option 1: Just tell them to fcuk off.

Option 2: Unless of course they're six years of age...you could forgive a six year for those kinds of questions...smile knowingly and send them on their merry way thinking what a nice man that Soldier was, I might want to be a Soldier one day just like him.

If its grown adults or lippy teenagers see Option 1.

You could always tell them F**k off Sir......if it makes you feel better mate. They can't say you weren't polite.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Ha,

Option 1 has been used many a time...


also

Option 3 - Punch, kick, punch combo!

Hard Larry

10 years ago people regarded me an idiot for joining the Army and not making a fast buck from the Celtic Tiger.

Now they see me as scum cause I have a public sector pension. I don't even try to understand it.

People need to give a sh!t about their country before they can give a sh!t about its soldiers. Both are a long way off in the current climate.

Poccington

Hard Larry wrote: »

10 years ago people regarded me an idiot for joining the Army and not making a fast buck from the Celtic Tiger.

Now they see me as scum cause I have a public sector pension. I don't even try to understand it.

People need to give a sh!t about their country before they can give a sh!t about its soldiers. Both are a long way off in the current climate.

I love you.




*in a purely non touching way

Local-womanizer

They should be giving out about the public sector workers who do sweet fcuk all.

My aul man worked in customs for a year,and the wasters in there is incredible.The things I heard I thought were made up,but he seen them first hand.

One man,who worked there for years used to clock in at 10 in the morning every Friday,then head to the pub for the rest of the day.He still will be getting his pension,and still will be talking ****e about how he was invaluable to the country,and he still talked ****e about the Gardai and the Army.

My friend who is in the PDF just nods and smiles at the arseh0les who pass snide comments.As he says they are usually the ones who are sitting on the dole for the past 5 years and contribute nothing to the country.He wouldent give them the satisfaction of getting pissed off at them.

ex_infantry man

well to be honest these people are just thick feckers commenting on something they think they know something about but in reality know sweet feck all!! i think they should do a road wars type show and follow say a recruit through training and then when he/she goes overseas to chad to show these idiots just what a member of the irish defence forces has to endure from the minute he/she is attested down to when they do there first overseas patrol!!! then maybe they would,nt be so quick to comment and actually show a bit of respect to those men and women that do what they do!!!

Local-womanizer

Hard Larry wrote: »

Now they see me as scum cause I have a public sector pension. I don't even try to understand it.

Begrudgery.The Irish excel in it at the moment.How dare you make a secure living for yourself when they struggle?!

Praetorian Saighdiuir

All valid points alright!

I know a guy who has been stackin veg in a supermarket since fourth year...........he is STILL stacking veg there now, 13 years later!!:eek:
He reckons we do feck all!........and that im wasting my life!:D

I still laugh about that one!!

As far as Im concerned, Iv done a lot of great stuff in the DF and a lot of hard stuff. Iv served overseas, iv trained recruits, iv gone through rivers and over mountains, iv carried more weight than id ever imagined, im qualified in many various weapons, tactics, survival, warfare.

F*ck anyone that says we have it handy and do f*ck all!

I hope they enjoy the queue it the rain when they are collecting the scratcher!

In my opinion

benwavner wrote: »

Is it just me or do the general population think we are a bunch of wasters that could not fight our way out of a paper bag?

I am sick to death being asked,

"so, ur a soldier, so what do you do all day?"

or

"Have you ever killed anyone, no?, then your not a real soldier!"

or

"Do you even have bullets in your plastic rifles?"

or

"so, this is where my tax money goes, so what am I paying you for?"


Makes me want to go hatchet tbh!!:(

Very good question and yes I believe a lot of people do ask those questions/ make those statements.

PDF soldiers provide zero in the eyes of Joe Public. When does he see a soldier? CIT maybe thats all. That I think is the crux of the problem.

Gavin Young, Paddy O Connor and the rest in the PR section do a good job but the reality is this nation is not pro military, Dermot Earley COS is well respected by an awful lot of people but who is the public face of the army? EOD provide a bomb squad service in the country but because we have not seen many actual explosions in the country there is little knowledge of them, ordinary people do not realise the dangerous job they do.

Nobody cares about overseas missions they do not see why Irish money is spent in a foreign country.

Fair question too about what a soldier does all day its something that people do not know.

Now don't worry I am a teacher who has a handy job, long holidays and anybody can do my job cause everyone was in school oh and a job for life with a massive pension.

Maybe a bit of positive PR is needed.

jd83

I have often thought about this. I understand we need to have some sort of defence forces. As said above the bomb disposal guys do an incredible job while risking their lifes and same goes for peacekeeping, we have a very good reputation for it. But on the other side I especially in these hard times when money is tight people can feel a bit negative towards the defense forces. So all in all my opinion as a civvy I think you do a great job.

However and ill probably get given out to for saying this. I think the rdf should be done away with and the money spent on them given to the pdf or somewhere else where its needed. I dont know how much is spent on them each year but surly it could be put to better use somewhere else.

Burnt

If some one ask you what you do all day and you tell them to "fcuk off!"
it isn't really going to help your profile much.

I'm a hardware engineer; do you know what I do all day? If i told you to
"fcuk off!", I doubt you would be terribly impressed with me.

Fair enough you will have people taking the pi$$, but snapping at everyone
smacks of insecurities. Perhaps you could try to actually educate them as to
what you do. I think the army does a good job with the resources it is provide
with; but, most people don't have any clue what the army do.

As In My Opinion rightly says the army lacks any sort of public profile, and
to be honest I get the impression alot of the time it doesn't want one.

pmg58

I think part of the problem is that a lot of people see us as being a sort of enlightened people, they think that we're above the need for an army. The whole "neutrality is enshrined in our constitution!" thing really annoys me- its not! And a proper neutral country should be able to defend itself, its sheer stupidity and naivety to assume that other countries will hold themselves to your standards, look at Switzerland for example, or Sweden, both have fairly powerful militaries. Realistically, our politicians are just unwilling to spend money on the DF and use the neutrality thing as a way to ensure their massive salaries are untouched.

I remember reading several newspaper articles when we were entering the recession, among most of the various "experts'" recommendations were the immediate disbandment of the army, including the memorable idea that we would be better off sending more doctors and nurses overseas rather than soldiers. How would they fare in Chad without any protection?

In my opinion

pmg58 wrote: »

.

I remember reading several newspaper articles when we were entering the recession, among most of the various "experts'" recommendations were the immediate disbandment of the army, including the memorable idea that we would be better off sending more doctors and nurses overseas rather than soldiers. How would they fare in Chad without any protection?

In recessionary times we need an army more than any other time even if it is only to take over vital services during the many strikes we are sure to see.

Believe it or not we have NGOs all over the world without military support.

I think the rdf should be done away with and the money spent on them given to the pdf or somewhere else where its needed. I dont know how much is spent on them each year but surly it could be put to better use somewhere else.

All money could be better spent, Health money, Justice money, Education money etc. etc. Do not think for a minute that the RDF is a massive waste of money it is not. The money is small in amount but big in outcome. What would the savings be if we reduced from 8 Brigadier Generals to 5 and reduced the related structures attached to them?

Craigsy

You can just see this going horribly off topic.

Anyway, as annoying as it may be you need to take no notice of these ignorant people. They have no idea of the extraordinary work you do everyday without making any big deal about.

pmg58

In my opinion wrote: »

Believe it or not we have NGOs all over the world without military support.

I know that, I just meant that I found the implication that the job being done by irish soldiers overseas was pointless or could be done better by doctors and nurses to be insulting.

iceage

Burnt wrote: »

If some one ask you what you do all day and you tell them to "fcuk off!"
it isn't really going to help your profile much.

I'm a hardware engineer; do you know what I do all day? If i told you to
"fcuk off!", I doubt you would be terribly impressed with me.

Burnt theres a certain amount of tongue in cheek going on here relax, call it Squaddie humour but there is a certain amount of this bull going on from joe public, there always is. Thats not to say that there are those who have great respect for members of the PDF.

If it was inferred to yourself, even in jest that you were a waste of space and money, you'd be quick of the mark with the odd expletive I'm sure would you not?

And this is not particular to the Forces either I'll have you know, I've got mates in the police forces both here and in the UK and they get it as well! But taking the p!ss out of one of the lads whilst he's stood somewhere on a escort armed with a plastic gun:rolleyes: That kind of guy is getting away lightly with a friendly fcuk off.

Burnt

iceage wrote: »

Burnt theres a certain amount of tongue in cheek going on here relax, call it Squaddie humour but there is a certain amount of this bull going on from joe public, there always is.
...
...
...
But taking the p!ss out of one of the lads whilst he's stood somewhere on a escort armed with a plastic gun:rolleyes: That kind of guy is getting away lightly with a friendly fcuk off.

Point taken;)

toiletduck

benwavner wrote: »

Is it just me or do the general population think we are a bunch of wasters that could not fight our way out of a paper bag?

A sizable proportion do imo, aye. I have to admit that my opinion of the PDF is low enough. I think this is more due to my experiences with the army growing up. In secondary school, we had to go up town for our breaks so seeing Army escorts for the securicor vans was a weekly occurrence. These guys were a joke. Asleep, munching into crisps, generally overweight... Now I know this wasn't the whole bunch, but it did leave an impression.

During my undergrad though there were two army cadets in the class. Sound guys and those boys did a load of work on top of studies, so my opinion changed.

Nobody cares about overseas missions they do not see why Irish money is spent in a foreign country.

I think it's more a case of people thinking that they're doing nothing aboard.

jd83

toiletduck wrote: »

I think it's more a case of people thinking that they're doing nothing aboard.

Thats because we never see or hear much about it bar what we see on the news. When we see pictures from peacekeeping missions there usually taken by soliders in there down time. Therefore most of the pictures ive seen are soldiers relaxing during there time off. This gives the general public the perception that they are on holdiay when there really not.

Donny5

toiletduck wrote: »

I think it's more a case of people thinking that they're doing nothing aboard.

You have it all wrong, it's the Navy that do nothing aboard.

toiletduck

jd83 wrote: »

Thats because we never see or hear much about it bar what we see on the news. When we see pictures from peacekeeping missions there usually taken by soliders in there down time. Therefore most of the pictures ive seen are soldiers relaxing during there time off. This gives the general public the perception that they are on holdiay when there really not.

Exactly.

SamuelFox

Look, I’m going to give the opposite point of view to this thread. It’s a good debate and I’d like to see what others think.

As a member of the RDF and a private sector worker I don’t have a great view of the Defence Forces. There are a lot of good guys, probably more than there are bad guys, but the overwhelming culture seems to be “me-feiner”, work shy and entitlement based. I’m not saying this to offend, just giving my honestly held opinion as an answer in good faith to the question asked.

Firstly, the culture in the Defence Forces is to dodge work where possible. While this happens in the private sector too, getting a “stand easy” is a rarity rather than a commonplace occurrence. The amount of time spent in the Defence Forces drinking tea or “lying on beds” is amazing. Try to get someone to answer a phone in a barracks between 10.30-11.30, 12.30-2.30 or after 4.30 and you’ll see what I mean. A lot of guys in the DF are reputed to have second jobs – certainly I know a few cadre staff with taxis, which might help explain this.

Secondly, members of the Defence Forces are excessively well paid and looked after. In addition to free food (and hugely subsided drink!!) and in some cases free accommodation, huge allowances are paid for doing pretty much their basic job. Do a google search for Defence Forces allowances and you’ll see what I mean, but I know that the Guards are similar in fairness. I remember the Officers in UCG in my time fighting over who did the weekend orderly officer duties as the money was huge – about 90 quid on top of your wages IIRC, and you could spend the day sleeping off your hangover!

While I’m on the subject, officers (the cadets we called them) in UCG gave a very bad impression of the Army to anyone who knew them. I played rugby and football for the college, and so I had a lot of friends in USAC (the barracks where they lived in Renmore). Basically, Cadets were renowned for three things – drinking at the expense of the taxpayer, failing exams (and cheating) and abusing women. In the jack-the-lad culture of the rugby or football teams these weren’t cardinal sins, but all the same you’d watch yourself around them. The clannishness too meant that any small bit of hassle with any one of them escalated pretty quickly, so they often weren’t welcome at parties and the like, unless you were invited back to USAC where you drank like a fish for feck all!

Thirdly, things like the Army Deafness scandal reflect this culture of being on the take. The dogs on the street know that a huge proportion (I’m not saying all) of the claims were bogus, yet everyone who had ever worn a uniform seemed to get a handout.
Similarly, the scandal of sexual harassment of female soldiers shows (to me anyway) the same culture of looking after number one and screw everyone else. In particular, I resent hearing the BS lectures about respect and dignity and then seeing instructors (RDF and PDF) riding recruits on RDF camps. The knowledge I have of the PDF suggests its probably not too different.

Overseas is another issue that we cynics have reservations about. The DF engage in low risk, pedestrian missions that are publicised as high risk and high tempo. Anyone who questions the role of the DF overseas is hammered into the ground, even when it is medical practitioners on the ground in Chad. That episode really pissed me off – rebels attacked a European medical charity’s compound in Chad and the Irish contingent did nothing. The Defence Forces claim that their role is to keep civilians safe in Chad, except when they fail to do so and then claim that their role is something different. Willy O’Dea got on the case and the charity’s headquarters in Paris were forced to apologise, but the guys on the ground didn’t join the apology.

Anyway, I hope that gives you an alternative point of view. It might come across that I am anti-Defence Forces, but I’m not. I enjoy my time in the RDF and think that generally the DF is a force for good, but I think that there is also a lot of faults and because of the difference between the DF and civilian organisations a lot that deserves criticism escapes mention.

Hard Larry

Seems like you have your mind up (or made up for you) so no point in arguing.

Cheers for the post. Think I'll go lie on my bed with a cup of tea, all that free food has given me indigestion.



EDIT: I came back to edit my post just on the off chance that someone might think I was serious about the free food thing, and a National crisis happens over it.

Rations are only free to personnel on duty or under going training or courses in the Defence Forces, even still though it comes out of the DF budget.

Although it may appear to some members of the Defence Forces (both Permanent and Reserve) that they are being fed for free you are actually indented by your administration staff 48 hours in advance of you recieving your grub. Its all recorded and signed off on and comes out of the Defence Forces budget.

Hope I cleared that up. I'm off to plan my next low intensity mission Overseas, the family will be delighted to see the back of me again

Praetorian Saighdiuir

For SamuelFox..........


I will admit that there is a certain amount of bluffing that goes on alright, this goes on in every job, but when there is work to be done, be it admin or line, its done and its done well.

As HL said, free food is a myth. In essence the food is free whilst on a course or in training. If you "live in" then you pay for your rations, and if you dont "live in" you buy a meal ticket.

Cadre staff may have second jobs, but they have slightly different working hours than the rest of the DF.

I have a feeling that most of your PDF views come from ur Annual Camps and training nights. So, your experiences of full time DF personnel in their day to day working environment is limited.

Army deafness, well I wasnt around for that one, but tbh, If you had been on a range and doing tactics for years while firing a 7.62 round 2 inches from your ear and suffered from it. Im sure you would claim for some compensation.....just look at most people who make claims.....there are people out there who claim when they cut their lip from a can of coke.

Sexual harrassment of Female soldiers, unfortunately this has come to light, but for all the wrong reasons. Most were accusations and not an ounce of truth in them. Im sure there was a number of legitimate offences (once again, you get this in every organisation).

"low risk, pedestrian missions that are publicised as high risk and high tempo" Have you been to Liberia, Lebanon, Kosovo, Bosnia, Chad, East Timor, Eritrea, etc etc??? .....I suggest you experience it before you make off the cuff comments like that!!

Hard Larry

SamuelFox wrote: »

Look, I’m going to give the opposite point of view to this thread. It’s a good debate and I’d like to see what others think.

As a member of the RDF and a private sector worker I don’t have a great view of the Defence Forces. There are a lot of good guys, probably more than there are bad guys, but the overwhelming culture seems to be “me-feiner”, work shy and entitlement based. I’m not saying this to offend, just giving my honestly held opinion as an answer in good faith to the question asked.

Firstly, the culture in the Defence Forces is to dodge work where possible. While this happens in the private sector too, getting a “stand easy” is a rarity rather than a commonplace occurrence. The amount of time spent in the Defence Forces drinking tea or “lying on beds” is amazing. Try to get someone to answer a phone in a barracks between 10.30-11.30, 12.30-2.30 or after 4.30 and you’ll see what I mean. A lot of guys in the DF are reputed to have second jobs – certainly I know a few cadre staff with taxis, which might help explain this.

Secondly, members of the Defence Forces are excessively well paid and looked after. In addition to free food (and hugely subsided drink!!) and in some cases free accommodation, huge allowances are paid for doing pretty much their basic job. Do a google search for Defence Forces allowances and you’ll see what I mean, but I know that the Guards are similar in fairness. I remember the Officers in UCG in my time fighting over who did the weekend orderly officer duties as the money was huge – about 90 quid on top of your wages IIRC, and you could spend the day sleeping off your hangover!

While I’m on the subject, officers (the cadets we called them) in UCG gave a very bad impression of the Army to anyone who knew them. I played rugby and football for the college, and so I had a lot of friends in USAC (the barracks where they lived in Renmore). Basically, Cadets were renowned for three things – drinking at the expense of the taxpayer, failing exams (and cheating) and abusing women. In the jack-the-lad culture of the rugby or football teams these weren’t cardinal sins, but all the same you’d watch yourself around them. The clannishness too meant that any small bit of hassle with any one of them escalated pretty quickly, so they often weren’t welcome at parties and the like, unless you were invited back to USAC where you drank like a fish for feck all!

Thirdly, things like the Army Deafness scandal reflect this culture of being on the take. The dogs on the street know that a huge proportion (I’m not saying all) of the claims were bogus, yet everyone who had ever worn a uniform seemed to get a handout.
Similarly, the scandal of sexual harassment of female soldiers shows (to me anyway) the same culture of looking after number one and screw everyone else. In particular, I resent hearing the BS lectures about respect and dignity and then seeing instructors (RDF and PDF) riding recruits on RDF camps. The knowledge I have of the PDF suggests its probably not too different.

Overseas is another issue that we cynics have reservations about. The DF engage in low risk, pedestrian missions that are publicised as high risk and high tempo. Anyone who questions the role of the DF overseas is hammered into the ground, even when it is medical practitioners on the ground in Chad. That episode really pissed me off – rebels attacked a European medical charity’s compound in Chad and the Irish contingent did nothing. The Defence Forces claim that their role is to keep civilians safe in Chad, except when they fail to do so and then claim that their role is something different. Willy O’Dea got on the case and the charity’s headquarters in Paris were forced to apologise, but the guys on the ground didn’t join the apology.

Anyway, I hope that gives you an alternative point of view. It might come across that I am anti-Defence Forces, but I’m not. I enjoy my time in the RDF and think that generally the DF is a force for good, but I think that there is also a lot of faults and because of the difference between the DF and civilian organisations a lot that deserves criticism escapes mention.

The Defence Forces are Fat, Lazy, Work-Dodging, Moonlighting, Overpaid, Womanising, Chauvinistic, Drunken, Cowards who care little for their job...but generally we're good blokes.

Cheers bud. Theres a morale booster for us.

OS119

benwavner wrote: »

Is it just me or do the general population think we are a bunch of wasters that could not fight our way out of a paper bag?

its not just you, or the general population.

a complete bunch of wasters may be taking it a bit too far, but there's a fearfully large - and senior - number of 'what special allowance will i get?' and 'i'm not going there, its fecking dangerous' people in the P/RDF.

there's nothing wrong with Irish soldiers per se, but the culture of the Irish military - brought about by a political, and wider public culture - for a very long time has been deliberately unmartial, its not an organisation for 'young thrusters' and at its most fundamental, the Irish military has not been considered a vital, or serious, part of the make-up of the state or the country - and the military has reacted to that public/political concept of 'not being a proper army', by not really giving that much of a fcuk.

the OP Armaggedon farce showed that in sharp relief. here is a state that 50 years before had been in civil war, and 30 years before had lived in fear of invasion by two major powers, 5 years before had operational experience of the Congo civil war, and for several years had been reading the tea leaves and knew that NI was going to explode, and yet it had made no financial or political investment in the one arm of the state that might be able to either protect its own stability or, if necessary, directly influence events in the north.

says it all.

SamuelFox

Hi benwavner, thanks for responding. Just to re-iterate, these are my honestly held opinions and I’m looking forward to having them challenged. Hopefully a few more will join the debate.

As HL said, free food is a myth. In essence the food is free whilst on a course or in training. If you "live in" then you pay for your rations, and if you dont "live in" you buy a meal ticket.

I was incorrect, apologies – I thought that free food was pretty widespread. Saying that, food is charged a low rate – I think its about €2 for a full cooked breakfast, €3 for a lunch and €4 for dinner – that’s pretty good for good helpings of prepared restaurant standard food, with plenty salads etc. I know an Officer who lives like a king on about €10 a day for food, which includes waiter service! The waiter service thing is true – I’ve seen it myself!

I have a feeling that most of your PDF views come from ur Annual Camps and training nights. So, your experiences of full time DF personnel in their day to day working environment is limited.

A lot of it is RDF based, but remember we are based in PDF barracks and see a lot of the PDF’s daily activity too. The days of us coming in one night a week and one weekend a month are long gone! In addition, I have a lot of friends who are PDF officers, and I’ve been their guest in messes around the country. The PDF posters are always going to have the edge in terms of more information but as they say “the onlooker often sees more of the game.”

"low risk, pedestrian missions that are publicised as high risk and high tempo" Have you been to Liberia, Lebanon, Kosovo, Bosnia, Chad, East Timor, Eritrea, etc etc??? .....I suggest you experience it before you make off the cuff comments like that!!

I’d love to, and if I was a reservist in any other country I’d be allowed! Unfortunately the representative organisations (trade unions) in the DF refuse to allow us to contribute, as this would result in those hefty UN allowances (up to €20,000 for a 6 month mission) being paid to non-PDF personnel, as well as raising the awkward question of what else the part-timers could do as well as the full timers!

In terms of what the PDF do all day, let me quote something that appeared on my facebook last month:

I was asked today what the DF does all day, well.... Today we have 758 people in 14 Missions Overseas, we have 1000 people on 77 courses and 250 people instructing them, we have 1000 people on security and operations on land, sea and Air, also we are planning, directing, assessing and carrying out the myriad of other tasks to support our Defence Forces – Buying, cooking, moving, fixing, maning, fueling... Busy Day!

This was posted by Capt Gavin Young, who is one of the Defence Forces Press Officers. If you do the maths, you will see that of the 10500 people in the Defence Forces, 3008 are accounted for in that post. That was put up in July 21st so some were on holidays (tho I understand most of the Defence Forces take leave in August) but where were the rest? Or, to put it another way, why does it take a ratio of more than 2:1 support staff to front line staff to operate a peacetime army?

Benwavner, I take on board your point about Goz Beida and it’s a job that not many would wish to do. Criticism of the mission is not criticism of the troops. Nevertheless Chad, Liberia, Kosovo or Lebanon are not in the same league as they are portrayed. That leads to the cynicism I am talking about here. I’m not anti-Defence Forces but I am a member who by virtue of being part-time has the advantage of seeing both sides and being able to compare.

Cheers bud. Theres a morale booster for us.

Are you serious? Morale booster??? You are in a peacetime Army, not storming the beaches in Normandy. You are clueless about how lucky you are and how soft you have it. Why don’t you call down to any dole office and complain that someone on the internet has “damaged your morale”?

Lockstep

Hard Larry wrote: »

10 years ago people regarded me an idiot for joining the Army and not making a fast buck from the Celtic Tiger.

Now they see me as scum cause I have a public sector pension. I don't even try to understand it.

People need to give a sh!t about their country before they can give a sh!t about its soldiers. Both are a long way off in the current climate.

Can't agree enough here.

Lockstep

Donny5 wrote: »

You have it all wrong, it's the Navy that do nothing aboard.

But they also do fishery patrols, checking for guns/drugs/human trafficiking etc.

Donny5

kickoutthejams wrote: »

But they also do fishery patrols, checking for guns/drugs/human trafficiking etc.

It was a bad joke based on a misspelling.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Meal tickets have gone up a bit maybe an extra €1.50 or so, still cheap il give you that. If you "live in" it costs around €60-€70 per week for rations, that for enlisted men. Im not sure of the whole officer side of things tho. You are correct about the waiting staff.:eek:......iv seen it too.

There was talk of RDF heading overseas but just in technical appointments. I know of a doctor that went over to Chad this year. I know you guys are eager to get overseas but I doubt you were stopped travelling because of a money issue tbh.

Ha this is what the others are doing....

"also we are planning, directing, assessing and carrying out the myriad of other tasks to support our Defence Forces – Buying, cooking, moving, fixing, maning, fueling"... Busy Day

Hard Larry

SamuelFox wrote: »

Are you serious? Morale booster??? You are in a peacetime Army, not storming the beaches in Normandy. You are clueless about how lucky you are and how soft you have it. Why don’t you call down to any dole office and complain that someone on the internet has “damaged your morale”?

Don't need to go to a dole office mate, I know how lucky I am, I've had the misfortune of being on a few of those "low-intensity missions" you were on about and witnessed abject poverty at first hand. Wasn't old enough to be at Normandy but I'm sure there was a few thousand blokes like me in the boats (maybe even in the cliffs too)

Maybe you could FaceBook "Gavin" for me and the rest of the lads on here and tell him to put the camera crews/reporters that go Overseas with the Private Soldiers and NCOs who actually do their job. You never know he might actually get some good PR for a change.

Poccington

SamuelFox wrote: »

Firstly, the culture in the Defence Forces is to dodge work where possible. While this happens in the private sector too, getting a “stand easy” is a rarity rather than a commonplace occurrence. The amount of time spent in the Defence Forces drinking tea or “lying on beds” is amazing. Try to get someone to answer a phone in a barracks between 10.30-11.30, 12.30-2.30 or after 4.30 and you’ll see what I mean. A lot of guys in the DF are reputed to have second jobs – certainly I know a few cadre staff with taxis, which might help explain this.

Secondly, members of the Defence Forces are excessively well paid and looked after. In addition to free food (and hugely subsided drink!!) and in some cases free accommodation, huge allowances are paid for doing pretty much their basic job. Do a google search for Defence Forces allowances and you’ll see what I mean, but I know that the Guards are similar in fairness. I remember the Officers in UCG in my time fighting over who did the weekend orderly officer duties as the money was huge – about 90 quid on top of your wages IIRC, and you could spend the day sleeping off your hangover!

Of course you can't get anyone to answer the phone after 4.30, everyone is gone home! If you really need to speak to someone after duty hours, contact the Duty Room. As for your other timings, although I can only speak for Cathal Brugha Barracks, contact any of the offices of the Units in CBB outside of 11-11.30 and 12.30-1.30 and I guarantee you'll get an answer.

Free food, free accomodation? Nah, both are paid for and in an average week for someone paying both quarters and rations, they're looking at losing over 60 quid of their wages. I've yet to see an Orderly Officer in CBB that has willfully taken on a weekend duty and spent the day sleeping.

Similarly, the scandal of sexual harassment of female soldiers shows (to me anyway) the same culture of looking after number one and screw everyone else. In particular, I resent hearing the BS lectures about respect and dignity and then seeing instructors (RDF and PDF) riding recruits on RDF camps. The knowledge I have of the PDF suggests its probably not too different.

Lol, the knowledge you have? Your knowledge consists of maybe popping into the barracks a few hours a week and spending 2 weeks or so away in the summer, oh and of course your Officer mates. In the famous words of Jay Z "We don't believe you, you need more people".

What scandals by the way? Most of the "scandals" came from girls that were just looking to hang someone that they didn't like, or that was "mean" to them.

Are you sure a big lazy, bluffing, double jobbing, free food grabbing, sexual predator black hat wasn't mean to you? Cause you're spouting some serious nonsense about an organisation you've never been a part of.

Poccington

kickoutthejams wrote: »

But they also do fishery patrols, checking for guns/drugs/human trafficiking etc.

Is that you Gaving Young?

SamuelFox

"also we are planning, directing, assessing and carrying out the myriad of other tasks to support our Defence Forces – Buying, cooking, moving, fixing, maning, fueling"... Busy Day

That’s the point I made in an earlier post – how does it take two soldiers in support to get one working? Its genuine curiosity – I just don’t understand it, and the best I can think of is shocking inefficiency.

Poccington, these internet debates all turn into the same **** – back and forth arguments about your personal experiences. I can’t prove either way about working hours, nor can you, so I’d advise anyone who cares to pick a Defence Forces barrack extension at random and ring it. Keep some grub nearby, you could be waiting…..

On accommodation, €60 per week for grub and a bed is pretty good, I pay more than that in rent alone, and there isn’t a chef to cook for me either. Or a football pitch, gym, or squash courts. Not to mention a bar across the square charging 1970s prices!

Lol, the knowledge you have? Your knowledge consists of maybe popping into the barracks a few hours a week and spending 2 weeks or so away in the summer, oh and of course your Officer mates. In the famous words of Jay Z "We don't believe you, you need more people".

Dry your eyes princess, the knowledge I have is more than enough to form a judgement. You don’t like what I think? Tough. Throw this question up on another forum, see what the general layman’s perception is.

What scandals by the way? Most of the "scandals" came from girls that were just looking to hang someone that they didn't like, or that was "mean" to them.

That’s absolute BS. If there was even a hint that the Defence Forces could discredit the findings in the Clonan Report they would have done so. You know and I know that the harassment was going on, maybe with only a small number of perpetrators, but it happened. Blaming the women is akin to blaming a rape victim, and frankly that sickens me. Worse is that everyone knew and no-one did a thing about it, which is what stood out for me in this whole thing.

Are you sure a big lazy, bluffing, double jobbing, free food grabbing, sexual predator black hat wasn't mean to you? Cause you're spouting some serious nonsense about an organisation you've never been a part of.

Not at all. I’m an RDF NCO for almost a decade now, and I’m delighted to say that I really enjoy it. Why wouldn’t I? I’m getting paid to spend time outdoors, either on tactics which I enjoy, or in a barracks relatively idle. No stress, plenty breaks and finished at half four! Saying that, coming back to the real world after visiting planet army is an education. Of course people in civilian life resent the army lifestyle. The only reason the question is being asked is that DF people just don’t get how soft they have it! Try scrimping to pay for a GP (or a feckin dentist!!) compared with free healthcare and dental! Come into work early so you can fit in a game of squash versus being paid to keep fit, or being given all the time you need for sport! The list keeps going.

The guy who started this thread asked a question, and I’m giving my opinion. I said at the beginning that I was looking forward to having that opinion challenged, but I’m still waiting…..

Lockstep

Donny5 wrote: »

It was a bad joke based on a misspelling.

Oh lord...

http://www.sadtrombone.com/

Lockstep

Poccington wrote: »

Is that you Gaving Young?

He is a friend of a friend on Facebook

Lockstep

SamuelFox wrote: »

so I’d advise anyone who cares to pick a Defence Forces barrack extension at random and ring it. Keep some grub nearby, you could be waiting…..

I had to ring the Renmore barracks numerous times during my RDF application (took extra time as I'd lived outside IReland for so long) and there was always someone to take my call.

SamuelFox wrote: »

On accommodation, €60 per week for grub and a bed is pretty good, I pay more than that in rent alone, and there isn’t a chef to cook for me either. Or a football pitch, gym, or squash courts. Not to mention a bar across the square charging 1970s prices!

HAve you ever been on a training camp (even a week long or whatever)
They're not exactly staying in palaces (cots and stained sheets in a barrack room and the food is solid if a but stodgy; I much prefer to cook for myself), I know a few PDF soldiers and none of them live in the barracks, despite the cost benefits. I'd prefer to take the monetary hit and live outside of the barracks myself.

SamuelFox wrote: »

Not at all. I’m an RDF NCO for almost a decade now, and I’m delighted to say that I really enjoy it. Why wouldn’t I? I’m getting paid to spend time outdoors, either on tactics which I enjoy, or in a barracks relatively idle. No stress, plenty breaks and finished at half four!

FOr some people, being forced to do those is not a fun thing at all.
Because someone finds aspects of a job enjoyable does not universalise it.

SamuelFox wrote: »

Saying that, coming back to the real world after visiting planet army is an education. Of course people in civilian life resent the army lifestyle. The only reason the question is being asked is that DF people just don’t get how soft they have it!

I wouldn't see a DF job as "soft".
PDF training seems harsh from those I know (survival training in the Curragh for example), add in the fact that if you're overseas you face the prospect of being killed (as happened in Lebanon for example)

SamuelFox wrote: »

Try scrimping to pay for a GP (or a feckin dentist!!) compared with free healthcare and dental! Come into work early so you can fit in a game of squash versus being paid to keep fit, or being given all the time you need for sport! The list keeps going.

What do you expect? The soldier's jobs necessitate them to be healthy; including healthcare and sport is a natural part of this.

iceage

Just curious here Samuel Fox, are you Ex PDF?

Poccington

SamuelFox wrote: »

That’s the point I made in an earlier post – how does it take two soldiers in support to get one working? Its genuine curiosity – I just don’t understand it, and the best I can think of is shocking inefficiency.

Poccington, these internet debates all turn into the same **** – back and forth arguments about your personal experiences. I can’t prove either way about working hours, nor can you, so I’d advise anyone who cares to pick a Defence Forces barrack extension at random and ring it. Keep some grub nearby, you could be waiting…..

I can prove the working hours thing, I live it every day of the week.

On accommodation, €60 per week for grub and a bed is pretty good, I pay more than that in rent alone, and there isn’t a chef to cook for me either. Or a football pitch, gym, or squash courts. Not to mention a bar across the square charging 1970s prices!

You pay more than that in rent... Just out of interest, how would you rate the place you're staying? I'm gonna assume you're not sharing a room with 3 other lads, with only a locker to yourself and a footlocker for your kit and probably a tele between the 4 of ya's?

That’s absolute BS. If there was even a hint that the Defence Forces could discredit the findings in the Clonan Report they would have done so. You know and I know that the harassment was going on, maybe with only a small number of perpetrators, but it happened. Blaming the women is akin to blaming a rape victim, and frankly that sickens me. Worse is that everyone knew and no-one did a thing about it, which is what stood out for me in this whole thing.

Women get away with absolute murder in the DF, with everyone having to tip toe around them and it's for the simple reason women can just turn around and say it's sexual harassment, I've personally seen top lads nearly have their careers ruined because of women and I'm sure some folk on here may know of a very recent case. I know of 1 lad that ended up going on his ticket during training after encouraging a girl while on a run because she was struggling, only for her to turn around and cry sexual harassment. You obviously haven't seen just what women can do, I have. They have it nowhere near as hard as people seem to think they do.

Not at all. I’m an RDF NCO for almost a decade now, and I’m delighted to say that I really enjoy it. Why wouldn’t I? I’m getting paid to spend time outdoors, either on tactics which I enjoy, or in a barracks relatively idle. No stress, plenty breaks and finished at half four! Saying that, coming back to the real world after visiting planet army is an education. Of course people in civilian life resent the army lifestyle. The only reason the question is being asked is that DF people just don’t get how soft they have it! Try scrimping to pay for a GP (or a feckin dentist!!) compared with free healthcare and dental! Come into work early so you can fit in a game of squash versus being paid to keep fit, or being given all the time you need for sport! The list keeps going.

So when I'm out on a 10 day exercise, or in the middle of a Recce Course... I should say to myself, "Ah sure **** it, I could be sitting at a desk or something really horrible like that." The simple fact is, we don't have it anywhere near as handy as you seem to think. Have you actually served in the PDF?

Hard Larry

That’s the point I made in an earlier post – how does it take two soldiers in support to get one working? Its genuine curiosity – I just don’t understand it, and the best I can think of is shocking inefficiency.

Its the same in most armies mate, logistics, administration, all sorts of support staff

these internet debates all turn into the same **** – back and forth arguments about your personal experiences.

You're the one that started it. You're talking about your experience too.

I can’t prove either way about working hours, nor can you

Could always post a picture of my medals? would that help?

I’d advise anyone who cares to pick a Defence Forces barrack extension at random and ring it. Keep some grub nearby, you could be waiting…..

Why ring a random number? why not ring the Switch or the Guard Room?
I'm sure if I rang, for example' a random extension number in Quinn Direct Insurances I might be a while waiting on an answer too.

On accommodation, €60 per week for grub and a bed is pretty good, I pay more than that in rent alone, and there isn’t a chef to cook for me either. Or a football pitch, gym, or squash courts. Not to mention a bar across the square charging 1970s prices!

Soldiers have to keep fit. Can't have people going around labeling us fat and lazy now can we? I'm sure as a member of the RDF you've taken advantage of the DFCB prices as well. Can't say I frequent the mess too much I find it full of old soaks and walts, not exactly Lillies Bordello.

Dry your eyes princess, the knowledge I have is more than enough to form a judgement. You don’t like what I think? Tough. Throw this question up on another forum, see what the general layman’s perception is.

It has. It was on AH a couple of times. As I pointed out in my first post there is very little National pride left in this country, and I don't blame people for it lots of Public and Private Organisations are snowed under in inefficiency mainly due to some peoples poor attitude, why wouldn't they be pissed off when they see the powers that be pissing their money away and making a joke shop out of their Nation.

Not at all. I’m an RDF NCO for almost a decade now, and I’m delighted to say that I really enjoy it. Why wouldn’t I? I’m getting paid to spend time outdoors, either on tactics which I enjoy, or in a barracks relatively idle. No stress, plenty breaks and finished at half four! Saying that, coming back to the real world after visiting planet army is an education. Of course people in civilian life resent the army lifestyle. The only reason the question is being asked is that DF people just don’t get how soft they have it! Try scrimping to pay for a GP (or a feckin dentist!!) compared with free healthcare and dental! Come into work early so you can fit in a game of squash versus being paid to keep fit, or being given all the time you need for sport! The list keeps going.

You're in the RDF you get that Healthcare as well when Active. Whats the problem? If (God Forbid) one of my troops become a casualty Overseas or at home will I give him Buddy Aid and call a CASEVAC or wait til he fishes the old VISA out of his wallet?

The guy who started this thread asked a question, and I’m giving my opinion. I said at the beginning that I was looking forward to having that opinion challenged, but I’m still waiting….

No you're not bud I said already you have your mind made up. If you have such a negative opinion then why even visit the Military forum? why are you even in the RDF? Don't tar the Army with your brush when you know the sins of the Father are well outweighed by the sins of the Son.

concussion

SamuelFox wrote: »

Not at all. I’m an RDF NCO for almost a decade now, and I’m delighted to say that I really enjoy it. Why wouldn’t I? I’m getting paid to spend time outdoors, either on tactics which I enjoy, or in a barracks relatively idle. No stress, plenty breaks and finished at half four!

I was going to ignore this thread, but you've piqued my interest. As a reservist, the only reason you should be in barracks is for training, so what the f**k are you doing hanging around a barracks being idle? Especially as an NCO.



Edit: Another thing, you've come on here saying the PDF have it easy yet you talk about hanging around doing nothing while you're supposed to be training...how do you live with yourself ?

pmg58

Good point, I don't know too many NCOs that can find the time to be idle.

Nuttzz

How dare that sandbag come on here and slag us pros off....and so the pi$$ing competition begins.

Lets be honest this member of the reserve has only limited experience and knowledge of the pdf and has formed an opinion that is less than complementary about it, what then does joe public think.

pdf slagging off their reserve counterparts in the pub, public or on the internet think they are slagging the reserve but they are, in my view, slagging the whole df off.

You can tell the difference between the reserve & regular, can the public?

This is about public perception, what do the public read about in the papers and remember? Do they read about all the hard work and unsociable hours the bomb squad work or do they read how the army harassed that poor ms ireland officer girl from donegal.

For years the army has been insular and inward looking, the press office now is starting to engage with the public but lets looks at some of the stupid directives issued in the past. As we know people do stupid things with mobile phones, reserves show pictures of themselves on camp acting the pi1ck and posting them on bebo, the guys overseas who pretended to shoot at the locals and posted it on youtube. What was the df's answer? Dont post on bebo/facebook/youtube and No camera enabled mobile phones to be brought into the barracks. Show me a phone these days without a camera??

Only recently has the army cottoned on to the idea that they can use bebo, facebook and youtube as a tool for good, indeed they should encourage users to officially submit their photos and videos to the press office and organised in a central place could show the activities of the df in a positive light

First thing you read about when it comes to government cuts is the army, "what do they do" "why do we need so many" "just close down the army and spend the money on health, little children, old grannies" etc etc. No one ever challenges commentators on this. Look at the hue and cry when dell announced 2000 job losses, yet people are happy to sack 10,000 from the army.

So instead of turning on each other about the perceptions that exist, what can be done to improve the perception of the df as a whole? Thats the battle the df really needs to win

Irish_Army01

To me, it sounds like the green eyed monster!

I'll throw my 02 cents in..

I will not justify my job to anyone to says to me I am lucky to have a job!!! just because I get paid every Wednesday. I picked the Army, they Picked whatever...

I joined the Army at the start of the celtic tiger because I wanted to be a Soldier. We were getting paid pittance compared to most other jobs..FFS My Wife (Girlfriend at the time)was getting better paid in McDonalds than me!!!

The Army routine changes day to day..its never the same..Operational Units are on the go always and sometimes meet themselves with the amount of operations they're involved in. That doesn't include courses and Overseas!!

As for free food, its been already explained by a few of my colleagues.

As for overseas..please explain to me how getting shelled, bombed, shot at is chushy or low intensity?

Most if not all of my generation has multiple tours to Lebanon..Every one of them tours every soldier will have a story of a close call with either the Hezbollah/Amal or Isreali/South Lebanese factions..

I haven't been to KFOR but I have been to Bosnia. The Irish have all the Key appointments in Camp Butmir..Maybe thats because we're great at lying on beds and eating and drinking...:rolleyes:

Donny5

Irish_Army01 wrote: »

As for overseas..please explain to me how getting shelled, bombed, shot at is chushy or low intensity?

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but it has to be said that all conflicts we've entered into with the UN have been inherently low intensity. Low intensity conflict doesn't mean it was or is an easy job, but peacekeeping is certainly an example of LIC.

Irish_Army01

Donny5 wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but it has to be said that all conflicts we've entered into with the UN have been inherently low intensity. Low intensity conflict doesn't mean it was or is an easy job, but peacekeeping is certainly an example of LIC.

Yeah, its not Iraq/A-stan.. Not our faults. We do what we are told! however not every thing that happens is publicized..

iceage

Irish_Army01 wrote: »

Yeah, its not Iraq/A-stan.....

Not yet...

Donny5

Irish_Army01 wrote: »

Yeah, its not Iraq/A-stan.. Not our faults. We do what we are told! however not every thing that happens is publicized..

Don't get me wrong. I think they're very worthwhile missions, and they play to our strengths.

starbelgrade

I think the Irish Defence Forces are very much needed.

They grit the roads in Dublin when it's snowing & do great at the show-jumping.

Long may they reign.