Anyone know a civil lawyer?

mcscrub

I bought a 1999 5 series a week ago, and it broke down on Saturday. I bought the car from a dealer, but he's reluctant to give me a refund, even though he said that the engine is completely gone in the car and it needs a replacement one. The car is on 3 month warranty from him.

I've checked all of the laws through the National Consumer Agency, and it seems I'm entitled to a refund considering the money I paid. Has anyone had this experience? And does anyone know of a civil law solicitor who isn't too expensive?

The reason why I am looking for a refund instead of repair, is because, firstly I've lost all trust in the car, and secondly, how am I to know where he gets the replacement engine from. What if he takes it from an older car with more mileage, or even worse, from a written off car?

I'd really appreciate any advice.

no1beemerfan

Sorry to hear of your problems. My opinion is that any decent solicitor should be able to help and advise you.

unkel

The dealer is entitled to offer to fix the car first, he doesn't have to give you a refund at this stage. By all means, ask a solicitor - he will tell you the same...

Anan1

Is the dealer entitled to use second hand parts, I wonder?

Drummerboy08

Anan1 wrote: »

Is the dealer entitled to use second hand parts, I wonder?

Good question. Would it depend on the warranty i.e. what exactly it entails? Although I would imagine it was just a 3 month engine/gearbox warranty. Looks to me that the dealer should be replacing the engine.

mcscrub

unkel wrote: »

The dealer is entitled to offer to fix the car first, he doesn't have to give you a refund at this stage. By all means, ask a solicitor - he will tell you the same...

Thanks Unkel,

The dealer has offered to repair the car, but considering he is putting in a replacement engine - how do I know where it came from? As I said in my first comment above, what if the new engine comes from an older car, a car with more mileage or a written off car? I've sadly lost trust in the car - and I always wanted a 5series!

I don't mean to contradict you either, but, according to the NCA, he can offer me a repair, refund or replacement, but apparently if the consumer (ie, me), wants a refund he is entitled to look for one - of course, at the cost of solicitor. Apparently it's in the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1980.

Has anyone been through this before, and would anyone have any idea of cost for the solicitor. The way I see it is if he doesn't give me a refund, the car could end up being more expensive than getting a solicitor!

unkel

Anan1 wrote: »

Is the dealer entitled to use second hand parts, I wonder?

I can't see why not. The dead engine is 10 years old, the dealer could replace it with a similar age / mileage second hand engine.

mcscrub

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Good question. Would it depend on the warranty i.e. what exactly it entails? Although I would imagine it was just a 3 month engine/gearbox warranty. Looks to me that the dealer should be replacing the engine.

From what I've heard from citizens information and the NCA, whatever a garage does to a car in a situation like mine, the new goods stay warrantied to their expected life span. For example, if you buy a car and the timing belt goes straight away, if they replace it and it goes before lets say 40,000 miles, the garage has to replace it. Well that's the how I read it! Please correct me if I'm wrong.

galwaytt

mcscrub wrote: »

From what I've heard from citizens information and the NCA, whatever a garage does to a car in a situation like mine, the new goods stay warrantied to their expected life span.

......and there's the rub: 'new goods'. You didn't buy new, and realistically, a similarly-aged used engine is a legitimate repair. In that case then the 'good' would not attract the same warranty as a span-new engine.

DamoRed

For a quick and free bit of advice, first contact your local Citizens' Information Centre. They'll be able to tell you a decent amount about your consumer rights. Any further info needed, and they can put you in contact with a solicitor.

Long Onion

Personally, i have met very few civil lawyers, most of them are arrogant and a bit rude.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Long Onion wrote: »

Personally, i have met very few civil lawyers, most of them are arrogant and a bit rude.

:rolleyes:

mcscrub

Long Onion wrote: »

Personally, i have met very few civil lawyers, most of them are arrogant and a bit rude.

very good long onion

mcscrub

galwaytt wrote: »

......and there's the rub: 'new goods'. You didn't buy new, and realistically, a similarly-aged used engine is a legitimate repair. In that case then the 'good' would not attract the same warranty as a span-new engine.

Thanks Galwaytt,

So that raises the question, how long should a bmw 5series, with a full service history (about 90% bmw dealer) last?

Another question, and again I haven't got a clue what the answer could be, but here goes, how would I get information on this replacement engine he is thinking of putting into the car? Surely if he puts an engine from a BMW with more miles than mine I'm screwed, if he gets one from a crashed or written off BMW I'm screwed, and if he's a real cowboy and gives me a non BMW engine...I'm really screwed!

Eoin

A written off car doesn't mean that the parts are not usable. Written off just means that the cost of repair was deemed too expensive compared to market value of the car. A 1999 5 series is only worth a few grand, so it would take very little damage to write it off, meaning there could be loads of useful parts for other cars.

I can't even imagine the hassle it would take to put a non-BMW engine in.

Edit - no more one liner rolleye responses please, they add nothing to the conversation. Report the post if needed.

junkyard

Three months warranty on a ten year old car? You should be promoting him not slating him! Very few garages I know will give warranty like this and generally sell them as seen at this age. The fact he's offering to repair the car is more than fair. What did you pay for the car OP?

Eoin

junkyard wrote: »

Three months warranty on a ten year old car? You should be promoting him not slating him! Very few garages I know will give warranty like this and generally sell them as seen at this age. The fact he's offering to repair the car is more than fair. What did you pay for the car OP?

Is that not the minimum legal requirement?

junkyard

eoin wrote: »

Is that not the minimum legal requirement?

Not too sure tbh, all I do know is the bigger garages would just out the car at a knock down price. A ten year old car is near the end of it's life in most cases and a 5 series BMW of this vintage is only worth a couple of thousand anyway, it would cost more to replace the engine than the car really.

cpoh1

Lets be honest here, its completely unreasonable for you to ask for a refund after an engine failure in a 10 year old car, thats what the 3 month engine and gearbox warranty is for. The dealer is standing by his sale and replacing the engine as per the warranty so fair play to him. Just make sure you have documentation for the engine he is putting in it with mileage certs etc.

Depending on the garages terms and conditions (and 99.9% are the same) they will state that their policy is to repair X number of times before refund or replacement of good purchased. This means you are NOT entitled to a refund considering he is honouring his contractual obligations.

Now go away and let the dealer put a replacement engine in your car and stop being silly about the whole thing.

cpoh1

eoin wrote: »

Is that not the minimum legal requirement?

Yes it is. All private buyers purchasing a car from a registered car dealer get 3 months engine and gearbox warranty no matter what the dealer says to the contrary (unless its a trade sale within the business).

Eoin

cpoh1 wrote: »

Yes it is. All private buyers purchasing a car from a registered car dealer get 3 months engine and gearbox warranty no matter what the dealer says to the contrary (unless its a trade sale within the business).

Thanks for that. I didn't think it was them being particularly generous.

junkyard

cpoh1 wrote: »

Yes it is. All private buyers purchasing a car from a registered car dealer get 3 months engine and gearbox warranty no matter what the dealer says to the contrary (unless its a trade sale within the business).

I have to say it seems a bit crazy to even have warranty like this on a machine, if that's the case a second-hand fridge freezer or cooker should have a similar warranty, I can't see it happening any time soon though.;)

cpoh1

junkyard wrote: »

I have to say it seems a bit crazy to even have warranty like this on a machine, if that's the case a second-hand fridge freezer or cooker should have a similar warranty, I can't see it happening any time soon though.;)

Its a crazy situation alright! I think its to deter scrupulous dealers from selling any old rubbish to joe soap with no knowledge of cars blindly trusting ending up with a lemon on their hands.

Then again being protected by the law and getting satisfaction from it are two entirely different things, for the sake of a two grand car it might not be worth chasing a dealer over a failed engine under warranty . The hassle and time puts most people off.

mcscrub

cpoh1 wrote: »

Lets be honest here, its completely unreasonable for you to ask for a refund after an engine failure in a 10 year old car, thats what the 3 month engine and gearbox warranty is for. The dealer is standing by his sale and replacing the engine as per the warranty so fair play to him. Just make sure you have documentation for the engine he is putting in it with mileage certs etc.

Depending on the garages terms and conditions (and 99.9% are the same) they will state that their policy is to repair X number of times before refund or replacement of good purchased. This means you are NOT entitled to a refund considering he is honouring his contractual obligations.

Now go away and let the dealer put a replacement engine in your car and stop being silly about the whole thing.

How can you say it's completely unreasonable when I paid a good price for it only seven days before? What's unreasonable is the car breaking down within the first week. Cars sold should be fit for purpose - ten years old or not. When you pay for a car it shouldn't break down on the way out of the dealership (I'm not being literal) only to be told, "ahhhh you've got a warranty, no I won't give you a refund, I'll fix the problem instead".

Also, somebody else above asked why I am slating the dealer. I haven't named or slated any dealer, and I wouldn't either. What I am doing here is checking my options and looking for advise from people who may or may not know more than me. (don't worry I've read the charter, and I don't take anything here to be gospel - just looking for some info).

I do owe the dealer credit, in that I don't think he's trying to f*** me over, but I do feel that I should be entitled to a refund, especially when the incident happened within 7 days.

mcscrub

junkyard wrote: »

I have to say it seems a bit crazy to even have warranty like this on a machine, if that's the case a second-hand fridge freezer or cooker should have a similar warranty, I can't see it happening any time soon though.;)

It would have a warranty if it was sold by a fridge freezer shop - not by a private individual though. Same logic for a car, and it makes sense, because the fridge freezer shop is supposed to be reputable, or dealing in its trade.

PCPhoto

I think you should demand your money back - and a letter from a solicitor will only cost €40-50 and should speed things up.

However - if he fights it ..... then it could be 12months maybe 2years before you get your money back.....it seems like he's reluctant to give it back as he was grateful to get a sale, unfortunately for him the car didnt last longer than a week. (surely his mechanic would have seen this on inspection before sale)

OP....visit a solicitor and get him to take on the case - make sure you tell him that you have lost confidence in the dealer and dont want him to repair it you want to take your money elsewhere (if it can break after a week its possible that it might just last length of warranty before going kaput)

goto Solicitor and explain everything to him/her ....get him/her to send a letter to the respective garage and hopefully the matter will be resolved in weeks.
PS. the cost of solicitors letter and fees should be included in the money you should receive back for the bad motor.

Bobo78

PCPhoto wrote: »

I think you should demand your money back - and a letter from a solicitor will only cost €40-50 and should speed things up.

However - if he fights it ..... then it could be 12months maybe 2years before you get your money back.....it seems like he's reluctant to give it back as he was grateful to get a sale, unfortunately for him the car didnt last longer than a week. (surely his mechanic would have seen this on inspection before sale)

OP....visit a solicitor and get him to take on the case - make sure you tell him that you have lost confidence in the dealer and dont want him to repair it you want to take your money elsewhere (if it can break after a week its possible that it might just last length of warranty before going kaput)

goto Solicitor and explain everything to him/her ....get him/her to send a letter to the respective garage and hopefully the matter will be resolved in weeks.
PS. the cost of solicitors letter and fees should be included in the money you should receive back for the bad motor.

+1

Henry Ford III

Can anyone point me towards details of this "3 month minimum warranty" please.

cpoh1

mcscrub wrote: »

How can you say it's completely unreasonable when I paid a good price for it only seven days before? What's unreasonable is the car breaking down within the first week. Cars sold should be fit for purpose - ten years old or not. When you pay for a car it shouldn't break down on the way out of the dealership (I'm not being literal) only to be told, "ahhhh you've got a warranty, no I won't give you a refund, I'll fix the problem instead".

Also, somebody else above asked why I am slating the dealer. I haven't named or slated any dealer, and I wouldn't either. What I am doing here is checking my options and looking for advise from people who may or may not know more than me. (don't worry I've read the charter, and I don't take anything here to be gospel - just looking for some info).

I do owe the dealer credit, in that I don't think he's trying to f*** me over, but I do feel that I should be entitled to a refund, especially when the incident happened within 7 days.

Its reasonable to expect some things to break, even brand new from the factory. That why there is legislation to protect people in that event by way of warranties. Sure my 2 week old nokia is in for repair already and thats the best I can expect.

Everyone knows that some things will slip through the net quality wise and with a 10 year old car you are always taking a gamble, be thankful that it happened immediately and not 4 months down the line with you having to fit the bill. Sure its unreasonable to have broken down but at least the dealer is doing everything by the book to put it right, be happy and move on! Remember sometimes these things happen anda the dealer probably had no prior knowledge of it.

There was a post mentioning 40-50 euro to send a solicitors letter, well I stopped reading it after that line...:rolleyes: Go ahead and contact a solicitor but they will tell you exactly what I am right now.

cpoh1

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Can anyone point me towards details of this "3 month minimum warranty" please.

I dont mean to be condescending but not everything is available on the internet like car stats! You'll have to go down to your library and dig the information out I would imagine or even better ring a solicitor friend or your local one for the relevant info.

mcscrub

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Can anyone point me towards details of this "3 month minimum warranty" please.

You get this information from citizens information.

Henry Ford III

cpoh1 wrote: »

I dont mean to be condescending but not everything is available on the internet like car stats! You'll have to go down to your library and dig the information out I would imagine or even better ring a solicitor friend or your local one for the relevant info.

No offence taken, but I'm sceptical.

I'm almost certain that cars can still be "sold as seen" even by a dealer to a member of the public.

Henry Ford III

Out of pig iron I look up http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_Ireland

It says nothing about a minimum 3 month warranty. Nor seemingly does the Sale of goods/supply of services Act either.

mcscrub

Henry Ford III wrote: »

No offence taken, but I'm sceptical.

I'm almost certain that cars can still be "sold as seen" even by a dealer to a member of the public.

Henry Ford III, you are nearly right there. But even in this case, if the goods are supplied by a garage, the purchaser still has some degree of comeback.

In my case, I didn't sign anything described as "Sold as Seen". But from talking to the NCA and Citizens information, they have told me that in the situation where somebody had signed "sold as seen", they would have a certain amount of comeback.

With regards the 3 month warranty, I can only go by what they told me. They said that in my case I am backed by the Sale of goods and supplies act 1980 (or whatever it is called) for between 3 and 6 months, but probably closer to 3 - no less.

mcscrub

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Out of pig iron I look up http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_Ireland

It says nothing about a minimum 3 month warranty. Nor seemingly does the Sale of goods/supply of services Act either.

You read the entire Sales of goods and supplies act 1980 in the last few minutes!! Fair play to you!!

Eoin

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Out of pig iron I look up http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_Ireland

It says nothing about a minimum 3 month warranty. Nor seemingly does the Sale of goods/supply of services Act either.

Interestingly it does say this though:

As a consumer you have the same rights if you buy an item second hand as if it is new. In this case if you find a fault with the car after you have bought it the dealer is the person who must set matters right.

If it is not in fact mandatory, I wonder why even the dodgiest of back street dealers seem to usually give a 3 month engine and 'box warranty - how did that become the minimum standard?

Anan1

Anan1 wrote: »

Is the dealer entitled to use second hand parts, I wonder?

Of coure he is, you don't think he or any other garage is going to get a new engine for a 99 car do you.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

No offence taken, but I'm sceptical.

I'm almost certain that cars can still be "sold as seen" even by a dealer to a member of the public.

mcscrub wrote: »

You read the entire Sales of goods and supplies act 1980 in the last few minutes!! Fair play to you!!

I did say "seemingly"

mcscrub

mcscrub wrote: »

and if he's a real cowboy and gives me a non BMW engine...I'm really screwed!

Too much work to put a non BMW engine in there.

Henry Ford III

eoin wrote: »

...I wonder why even the dodgiest of back street dealers seem to usually give a 3 month engine and 'box warranty - how did that become the minimum standard?

My point is that I believe they don't.

Eoin

Anyway, the dealer is sticking by the warranty from what I can tell. Not letting him fix the problem is being unreasonable IMO.

RoverJames wrote:

Of coure he is, you don't think he or any other garage is going to get a new engine for a 99 car do you.

You're assuming that the law always takes practicalities into account.

jhegarty

PCPhoto wrote: »

I think you should demand your money back - and a letter from a solicitor will only cost €40-50 and should speed things up.

However - if he fights it ..... then it could be 12months maybe 2years before you get your money back.....it seems like he's reluctant to give it back as he was grateful to get a sale, unfortunately for him the car didnt last longer than a week. (surely his mechanic would have seen this on inspection before sale)

OP....visit a solicitor and get him to take on the case - make sure you tell him that you have lost confidence in the dealer and dont want him to repair it you want to take your money elsewhere (if it can break after a week its possible that it might just last length of warranty before going kaput)

goto Solicitor and explain everything to him/her ....get him/her to send a letter to the respective garage and hopefully the matter will be resolved in weeks.
PS. the cost of solicitors letter and fees should be included in the money you should receive back for the bad motor.

Why do you think he will win the case , when the law says a repair is all that is required?

mcscrub

I just read the email that I got from citizens information - the warranty differs on all goods depending on price and age. In the email I was told that I have at least 3 months under the act.

mcscrub

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I did say "seemingly"

You did - sorry for my sarcasm!!

mcscrub

RoverJames wrote: »

Of coure he is, you don't think he or any other garage is going to get a new engine for a 99 car do you.

If I just wanted a repair I'd have no problem with second hand parts - provide they worked, aren't from a written off car and have a similar mileage or less.

eoin

eoin wrote: »

Anyway, the dealer is sticking by the warranty from what I can tell. Not letting him fix the problem is being unreasonable IMO.



You're assuming that the law always takes practicalities into account.

I'm not assuming anything old stock

Eoin

mcscrub wrote: »

If I just wanted a repair I'd have no problem with second hand parts - provide they worked, aren't from a written off car and have a similar mileage or less.

Read my earlier post - a written off car doesn't mean the parts aren't usable.

A donor car (i.e. same type of car as yours) is only worth a few grand. Therefore it would not take much damage for it to be written off, and be a perfectly acceptable car to use for parts. I'd imagine it could even take a hefty enough smack, and the engine would still be fine to use.

OP, I cannot understand what you have against engines from a written off car. Where do you think 2nd hand engine come from ? Most come from scrapped or written off cars.

Carstuck

If you reject a repair, then they should offer you a replacement i.e. give you a another car. However you need to put the pressure hard on them to get this. Tell them you have had enough and will take legal action unless they cooperate.

mcscrub

eoin wrote: »

Read my earlier post - a written off car doesn't mean the parts aren't usable.

A donor car (i.e. same type of car as yours) is only worth a few grand. Therefore it would not take much damage for it to be written off, and be a perfectly acceptable car to use for parts. I'd imagine it could even take a hefty enough smack, and the engine would still be fine to use.

RoverJames wrote: »

OP, I cannot understand what you have against engines from a written off car. Where do you think 2nd hand engine come from ? Most come from scrapped or written off cars.

For my safety, and the safety of my family I would completely avoid CAT A and B write off engines. These should be scrapped with the rest of the car IMO. That's just my opinion. Engines aren't build to withstand crashes like that, and depending on what angle a car was hit from the engine could have small but serious damages. Unfortunately I would reckon and I fear that alot of these damages are quickly repaired and then put up for resale as second hand engines (I'm no expert, but that's what I'd fear).

cpoh1

mcscrub wrote: »

I just read the email that I got from citizens information - the warranty differs on all goods depending on price and age. In the email I was told that I have at least 3 months under the act.

It is indeed. I have no idea how or why but this is the industry standard and a legal requirement for all garages, doesn't matter if a garage has a sold as seen policy on some cars. Ill get the missus to dig up the legislation/section that covers this either this evening or more likely tomorrow. If she's lying to me (and her clients too!) she's dumped