clay pigeon lessons

bird up

well folks,just wandering do anyone know where i could get some one on one lessons for clays?started last yr shot a handfull of times really enjoyed it.any help grateful,im in co. wexford.

pullandbang

Check out the list of ICPSA coaches here

ronn

i used Andy Verney 0879624805, he s in grangecon in west wicklow, he nice lad very helpful, but e75 for an hr,

Sparks

ronn wrote: »

but e75 for an hr,

That's rather low for what a coach should be earning to be honest.
Look on the net for prices in the UK or further afield.
Highest I've seen so far is about $500 per hour...

Bananaman

Call Pat@Hilltop (www.pcquad.com) - see if it suits you.

He has

• A Tough Sporting layout - 5 stands of two traps each,
• A Compact sporting layout - 5 stands x 7 traps,
• A DTL Layout
• An ABT Layout and
• A Novice layout

to hone your skills.

With all stands, bar the sporting layout, being under cover

He is not to everyones liking - says it like it is - doesn't butter anyones muffin for them - but he will have you breaking a lot more clays than you are doing now if you let him show you how.

His sporting layout is a great challenge once you feel up to it - there have been some great shooters up there and nobody has shot the 50 yet!!
.......one day it will be mine.

B'Man

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

That's rather low for what a coach should be earning to be honest.
Look on the net for prices in the UK or further afield.
Highest I've seen so far is about $500 per hour...

You're looking in the wrong places then.

I'd spend it on ~2000 cartridges and clays and learn by experience rather than hand anyone that kinda moula.

B'Man

Sparks

Rather an ignorant attitude there B'man.
You want to get better, a coach is the fastest way to do it.
You might think you're too good to be coached, but to quote someone who'd know, that's just Halle Berry talk.

For the OP, the ICPSA is running free coaching days, check this thread for details.

ayapatrick

€75 is enough of money for an hour of anyones time!

Sparks

You're not paying 75 euro for one hour of the coach's time aya, you're paying for one hour plus however many years it took to learn how to do that hour's work.

It's like the guy who works for 20 years in the factory on the same machine, retires, and is called back in to consult six months later. He looks at the machine, draws a small X on it with chalk, and then very precisely kicks that spot. Machine fires back up to life, and the guy gives the boss the bill for just over ten grand. Boss goes nuts, demands an itemised bill and gets back:

• Chalk; €1.22
• Twenty years learning what to do with chalk; €10,000

Bananaman

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that in the real world.

B'Man

bunny shooter

I might not be a "registered" coach but I'll teach anyone what I know (I manage to hit an average of 23-24 out of 25 ) for FREE.

€75 per hour is a joke :eek: or a way of keeping "riff raff" out of a sport :rolleyes:

When I started clay shooting a few of the lads at the shooting ground stood in behind me and coached me and they did it for FREE too.

Seen it many times in Midlands myself and some of the lads coaching newbies and NO money changes hands.

Sparks

Oddly, B'man, that's precisely what I thought when I read your assertion that all you needed was to keep shooting clays.

I'll just point out that the best shotgun shooters in Ireland (who are in fact, amongst the best in the world today) all have coaches. And that the coaches are slightly more important to them than their shotguns are.

Or are you saying we have loads of lads who could outshoot Michael Diamond while hung over on a bad day, but they don't go forward to win their Olympic medals because they have ideological differences with the IOC? :rolleyes:

bunny shooter

I know a good few of the older lads who have shot clays for Ireland and the ICPSA and all of them have coached myself and others over the years and no money changed hands. Obviously things are different in the Pale

Speaking of which the latest scam, and that's all I could call it, is that a guy is giving "proficiency courses", who is a 'safety officer' of the NARGC, to newbies who want to get firearms and is charging only €30 for the privilage

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

I know a good few of the older lads who have shot clays for Ireland and the ICPSA and all of them have coached myself and others over the years and no money changed hands. Obviously things are different in the Pale

A good shooter is not by default a good coach. They're wildly different skillsets.

And frankly, if we paid a realistic price for our coaching we might take it a bit more seriously - and we could demand that coaches take their training seriously as well. So instead of paying someone who once had a good day on the range, you're paying someone who's ISSF-accredited and properly trained to coach.

But hey, that'd be doing it right, and we don't do that in Ireland, do we? We just moan and bitch about how other people don't do it right

Speaking of which the latest scam, and that's all I could call it is that a guy is giving "proficiency courses" to newbies who want to get firearms and is charging only €30 for the privilage

Thank the Gardai and DoJ for not creating a list of accredited courses registered with FETAC/HETAC

Bananaman

Sparks,

Someone who wants to learn how to shoot clays does not need a coach that charges 75/hr or 500/hr - they need to learn from experience of those that have shot a bit longer.

When the times comes that they can shoot better than those that taught them at first then they need someone who has more experience.

If it gets to the stage where they are in competition on a major scale e.g. the Olympic Games themselves, then they need people who know how that is done.

That is what you are referrring to as a coach - that is far more than shooting, it involves mental preperation, ensuring you peak at the competition and not before or after, the politics and tactics of that type of competition, knowing the 'form' of all your peers etc.

The OP just wants to know how to shoot a few clays well - I don't think he's been in contact with Lucozade sport yet (I could be wrong) - if I was on the range he could ask me and I could show him - I'm an accreditted trainer - but I suggested he talk to Pat@Hilltop as Pat taught me to shoot clays and at some stage or another I have beat everyone else I have shot against but I still can't beat him.

Should be able to show him a thing or two.

B'Man

PS: That goes for Rifle and Pistol too.

Sparks

/shakes head

That's not how you learn and progress B'man.
And we've proven that in Ireland.
For years, that's how we shot air rifle - those who'd shot before showed the new people how to shoot.
Problem was, the old hands weren't competing against others who were better than them and working at it; they were stagnating because they didn't take on enough of a challange. When I started shooting, 520 was a high score in Ireland for air rifle.
Then along came a few lads who went off and learnt how to coach and they started training kids from scratch the right way.
A year or three later, and everyone in the 8-person finals in the national championships is from their club, damn near everyone going abroad to represent their country has been trained by them at one stage or another, and the average score has been driven up to the point where it's not thought of as high until it's in the high 570s.

If you don't know how to shoot, learn from someone who knows how to teach, not from someone who knows how to shoot. Or else you'll wind up never learning enough to be good.

(And for the record, when you can't outshoot your coach, it means he's not a very good coach or you're not a very good student).

shannonpowerlab

You should definitely shop around.

I got a lesson for €50 all inclusive just get an initial pointer.

Then I'll go shooting my self for a while and when I'm stuck I'll go back to him.

Bananaman

You might not be able to beat your coach because he's getting better too.

B'Man

jwshooter

bunny shooter wrote: »

I might not be a "registered" coach but I'll teach anyone what I know (I manage to hit an average of 23-24 out of 25 ) for FREE.

€75 per hour is a joke :eek: or a way of keeping "riff raff" out of a sport :rolleyes:

When I started clay shooting a few of the lads at the shooting ground stood in behind me and coached me and they did it for FREE too.

Seen it many times in Midlands myself and some of the lads coaching newbies and NO money changes hands.

probably why your still only shooting 23s and 24s .

It wasn't me!

With respect, you don't get your quota place for the Olympics and go, "hmm, a coach might not be a bad idea at this point..." because you've had a coach for years. You've gone to matches from local and national level, to open internationals like the Isle of Man and the Grand Prix of Liberation, on to world cups where you won your quota place, then he coaches you through the Olympics. Nobody gets there on their own. You need someone who knows your form, sees you make the same mistake twenty thousand times, notes it and coaches you out of that mistake, and does this over a period of years and with dozens of different things, edging closer to perfection, and it takes a team to get there, even if only one of you is shooting. That's why I'll be so glad to see national level training here in ISSF rifle.

Bananaman

I know that - I just think the OP wants to know how to break a few more clays and is being scared off by you loons telling him he needs a sponsorship contract and a coach that costs between 75/500hr and a team of professionals to make that happen.

Lads who need the coaches and need the teams have been at this for years, have the moeny to spend and know they need it.

They will not be on boards asking how it's done.

The OP needs to go to a rnage, have someone tell him what he is doing wrong and have a bit of craic - afterwards have a few pints and tell some lies about how he did and coaching be damned.


B'Man

jwshooter

Bananaman wrote: »

I know that - I just think the OP wants to know how to break a few more clays and is being scared off by you loons telling him he needs a sponsorship contract and a coach that costs between 75/500hr and a team of professionals to make that happen.

Lads who need the coaches and need the teams have been at this for years, have the moeny to spend and know they need it.

They will not be on boards asking how it's done.

The OP needs to go to a rnage, have someone tell him what he is doing wrong and have a bit of craic - afterwards have a few pints and tell some lies about how he did and coaching be damned.


B'Man

the OP might be a she .

richard faulds dvd ,the leading edge is worth a look .also digging for gold by the big man is good .i had a copy and lent it that was two years ago now :mad:

BIG BANG

Hi
Check out www.trapcoach.com He is a good lad for coaching and very reasonable price wise

shannonpowerlab

Bananaman wrote: »

You might not be able to beat your coach because he's getting better too.

B'Man

Well, you know form colleges where there are many many scientists who have done amazing things but doe not always mean he/she is a great teacher...I think it is a different skill set.

Bananaman

I just made a recommendation to call Pat @ Hilltop if you wanna learn to break a few more clays

he taught me - I can break clays

he is a 'trained instructor', as am I and at least a dozen other members of the club (although I don;t think any of us attended the teacher training college)

he has the facilities for you to learn/practice/compete

he probably has biscuits or buns

take it or leave it.

B'Man

jwshooter

the OP has made the irish sporting team i would think.so the cookie could get the lesson.

bunny shooter

jwshooter wrote: »

probably why your still only shooting 23s and 24s .

And what can you do then ? :rolleyes:

Straight 25's I suppose

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

And what can you do then ? :rolleyes:

Straight 25's I suppose

He's not saying he could do it bunny, he's saying you could do it with the right coaching.

Or not.....;)

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

He's not saying he could do it bunny, he's saying you could do it with the right coaching.

Or not.....;)

The 25th, I'd need to sort that one in my own head, don't need a coach, yet

Bananaman

jwshooter wrote: »

the OP has made the irish sporting team i would think.so the cookie could get the lesson.

Sorry I thought he was learning to shoot

From the OP:

started last yr shot a handfull of times really enjoyed it

B'man

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

The 25th, I'd need to sort that one in my own head, don't need a coach, yet

Sorting it in your own head requires it to be in your head in the first place. Sometimes a coach can put new stuff in there and everything becomes clear

Don't knock it till you've tried it.

jwshooter

bunny shooter wrote: »

And what can you do then ? :rolleyes:

Straight 25's I suppose

iv shot many 100 straights in DTL

bunny shooter

jwshooter wrote: »

iv shot many 100 straights in DTL

Of course you have. As in everything else, you are an expert

jwshooter

bunny shooter wrote: »

Of course you have. As in everything else, you are an expert

my DTL average in the icpsa calendar 09.

is AA at 97.78 fourth highest in the icpsa .

i would not say that makes me a expert ,but i can shoot

bunny shooter

jwshooter wrote: »

my DTL average in the icpsa calendar 09.

is AA at 97.78 fourth highest in the icpsa .

i would not say that makes me a expert ,but i can shoot

My, aren't we brilliant, I wanna be just like ya

jwshooter

bunny shooter wrote: »

My, aren't we brilliant, I wanna be just like ya

you should have got a few lessons then !

not every one has natural ability .;)

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

I would not say that makes me a expert ,but i can shoot

So why don't you shoot OT then?

And once more to the original poster, the ICPSA is running free coaching days, see the link in the post above. So if you're not sure it'd be useful to you to be coached, go along to the free coaching day and see what it's like - worst case, you've not lost anything. Best case, you now know what every other clay pigeon shooter in the world outside of Ireland knows - coaching's not some optional extra you bolt on at the end to get the medal, it's an integral part of training.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

So why don't you shoot OT then?

I seem to recall him saying he has done, and likes it. Correct me if I'm wrong, jw. He's got an ISSF number, remember.

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

So why don't you shoot OT then?

And once more to the original poster, the ICPSA is running free coaching days, see the link in the post above. So if you're not sure it'd be useful to you to be coached, go along to the free coaching day and see what it's like - worst case, you've not lost anything. Best case, you now know what every other clay pigeon shooter in the world outside of Ireland knows - coaching's not some optional extra you bolt on at the end to get the medal, it's an integral part of training.

i shot it twice . A two day shoot the irish grand prix in ashbourne about two years ago i shot a 95 and 90 ,i was beaten by tom cummins by a target for over all high gun.

Sparks

Twice?

I don't get it - why'd you give up on it?

target

I’ve read this thread with great interest as it raises up for me many of the myths and highlights some of the confusion that surrounds coaching and the role of the coach.

This is a big subject, one that to truly explore would take a lot of time and consideration. But I wanted to throw out some observations and some insights that I have picked up over the years.

Coaching for shooting sports is a relatively small field of expertise in terms of the academic and educational support structures which are in place. We do not benefit directly from the amount of specific research that other sports such as athletics, soccer etc., have had access to and which has subsequently been formative in the development of sports science in areas such as physiology, biomechanics and sports psychology.

For many their introduction to the shooting sports has been through clubs and their formative instruction in the sport was through the friendly help of a more experienced shooter. This is how I started myself and I would think it holds true for about 99% of current sport shooters.

I like many others developed my early shooting skills through practice and I say practice deliberately as it is not the same as training. I’ll come to that a little later. Over time, through practice I learnt how to hit targets, I became more confident as the score rose. I looked to other successful shooters to see what they did, I copied what I saw, sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn’t. Information was always available, through kindness and out of a love for the sport I was bombarded with guidance, tips and recommendations by many of the fellow shooters I met at the range and at competitions. Often, I would take on the advice there and then, again sometimes it helped and sometimes it didn’t.

I like many of my contemporaries have been to “coaching” sessions where we would hand over a fist of notes to have “an eye thrown over” my shooting style by another shooter who is seen to be a “top shooter!”. These coaching days were not the structured coaching days that the ICPSA now organise but were perhaps an opportunity for a successful shooter to trade a little on his success. Everyone was looking for the “secret” or the “one missing bit” to their technique which would take them straight to shooting glory and success. Often a new stock would be the recommendation and a suitable one would be produced.

If this story, so far, sounds familiar then I’m glad I was not the only one who went down that track.

My introduction to structured coaching came from a long a circuitous route. I travelled and spent much of my time as a shooter in the company of some great coaches whom I found took a completely different approach to their work than what I had experienced up until then.

Some of these coaches were themselves very successful former shooters, some where just good coaches, but they all had a common feature and that was the method and structure that they applied to their coaching. Gone was the mysticism, to be replaced with fact and logic. Gone was the “missing bit of technique” to be replaced with understanding, patience and commitment and above all knowledge.

Practice now became training, no longer shooting “lead down the barrel” to see how many 25 straights I could get, I was now training for a purpose, I had a goal to achieve in each training session. I knew what the goal was and the coach knew the methods of training which would help me to achieve that goal. It had to be a partnership built on trust and a belief and respect for the coach.

I found I had more empathy for coaching than I had as a shooter so I took the first steps of a long road to becoming a coach. It’s a road that never ends; it just gets more interesting the further down it you travel.

The ICPSA and its coaching task group have done wonderful work over the last few years and the mystique of coaching has been replaced with formal, structured lessons delivered by trained instructors. Those ICPSA coaches have taken the step forward and shown the commitment to undergo coach education. They understand that coaching is a process in which change and ultimately results take time and perseverance, it also takes a belief in your coach and it will take commitment from both to see it through. To benefit effectively from coaching it must be seen as an ongoing and integral part of the shooting experience from beginner through to elite as indeed Sparks has mentioned with respect to Wilkinstown.

So if you can get access to coach who understands you, your way of shooting and what you want to achieve in your sporting career then count yourself lucky and hold on to them, spend the few quid if necessary and as Sparks has said already you’re paying for their knowledge and not their shooting ability. Sure if you had to see a Doctor, would you ask him first how good a patient he was.

rrpc

target wrote: »

Sure if you had to see a Doctor, would you ask him first how good a patient he was.

lol

ayapatrick

jwshooter wrote: »

you should have got a few lessons then !

not every one has natural ability .;)

did you get lessons to improve at the dtl or was it by doing a lot of shooting?

jwshooter

ayapatrick wrote: »

did you get lessons to improve at the dtl or was it by doing a lot of shooting?

I never had a lesson patrick .

to be a good clay shot you have to get to know how your body moves .

this done by dry mounting and shooting imangery clays in a quite place where you can concentrate on what your doing.if your shooting clays on a range your mind is on killing the target not what your body in doing.

to my mind blasting away clays is fun ,if its training your looking for you may use a different mind set. 50 targets shot well is better than 100 shot badly in training.

DTL is a mind game pure and simple . it is the easiest of the disciplines to shoot and one of the hardest to master.

slow is smooth , smooth is fast. as we say

bunny shooter

jwshooter wrote: »

.....DTL is a mind game pure and simple.......

+1