Suppression of free speech in Galway, Ireland

zing zong

OPINIONS?



"My wife and I were walking down the street in Galway, Ireland, and passed a white-haired human rights worker standing behind a table. Above him were banners calling for the boycotting of Israeli products by the EU. A pamphlet listed stores in Galway that sold Israeli goods and how to spot them. A banner above his table read "Israel kills 300 children in Gaza." A crowd was gathering and my wife and I stood watching.
A woman started screaming that the man behind the table had harassed her and had called her a murderer. Another man, who said that he was a Jewish theology professor from France, was also screaming that the posters were lies. The man behind the table had a video camera pointing at the screamers. He said only, Stop harassing me.
The woman (who I later learned was married to an Israeli) went off and got a garda (cop). He spoke to the man behind the table and said he had to leave or he would be arrested for disturbing the peace. The man said he wouldn’t leave.
I went up to the cop and told him what I had seen: two individuals verbally abusing the human rights worker. A short time later a handful of gardae took the man away in a paddy wagon.
What had happened: the pro-Israel screamers successfully used emotional blackmail—presenting the intensity of their rage as evidence of horrible mistreatment–to elicit protection from the police. Does this MO sound familiar?"


source

Kev_ps3

I blame the dumb Guards

ei.sdraob

unbelievable these people have some cheek

i seen the guy, hes there almost every weekended, fairplay to him for pointing out the crimes being committed (tho most people dont care and want to shop)

next time ill see him im gonna stop for a chat

wes

Pretty silly that this man was removed, for stating simple facts. I guess some people just don't like the truth.

Joey the lips

Is there any links to this in any other paper?

dvpower

Sounds a bit fishy to me. I cant imagine how a protest of this nature would be against the law. Any reports in reputeable media?

davej

This video comes to mind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJZaNne0Pic

davej

JonathanAnon

The two people should have been asked to move along. They have the right to set up their own counter protest if they wish. That is what free speech is about. Guards have no interest in justice, they just want the path of least resistance so they can spend more time on their second job.

AlekSmart

"My wife and I were walking down the street in Galway, Ireland, and passed a white-haired human rights worker standing behind a table. Above him were banners calling for the boycotting of Israeli products by the EU. A pamphlet listed stores in Galway that sold Israeli goods and how to spot them. A banner above his table read "Israel kills 300 children in Gaza." A crowd was gathering and my wife and I stood watching.
A woman started screaming that the man behind the table had harassed her and had called her a murderer. Another man, who said that he was a Jewish theology professor from France, was also screaming that the posters were lies. The man behind the table had a video camera pointing at the screamers. He said only, Stop harassing me.
The woman (who I later learned was married to an Israeli) went off and got a garda (cop). He spoke to the man behind the table and said he had to leave or he would be arrested for disturbing the peace. The man said he wouldn’t leave.
I went up to the cop and told him what I had seen: two individuals verbally abusing the human rights worker. A short time later a handful of gardae took the man away in a paddy wagon.
What had happened: the pro-Israel screamers successfully used emotional blackmail—presenting the intensity of their rage as evidence of horrible mistreatment–to elicit protection from the police. Does this MO sound familiar?"

Heavens but Galway must have changed since the John Hinde days

However I do smell a wat here.......all a little too down pat for my sensitive nose i`m afraid :rolleyes:

irish_bob

JonathanAnon wrote: »

The two people should have been asked to move along. They have the right to set up their own counter protest if they wish. That is what free speech is about. Guards have no interest in justice, they just want the path of least resistance so they can spend more time on their second job.

when it comes to relativley small issues , the guards will usually chastise the quiet , less intimidating party and appease the one who is doing the most shouting , guards dont like hassle and like easy targets , for them its a matter of sticking a name in the book and they perfer to tackle the one least likely to cause a fuss , the politics of this issue is a different matter , i doubt the cops had any real political bias

RedPlanet

The story has gone international now.

On Saturday 29th August, the indefatigable activist Tommy Donnellan of IFPAL (Irish Friends of Palestine Against Lisbon) was arrested on the street in Galway while engaged in legitimate advocacy for the Palestinian cause, and against the Lisbon Treaty that will set in formaldehyde the EU's Common Foreign and Security Policy that is so detrimental to that cause
Tommy was peacefully distributing leaflets and collecting signatures when he was approached by a couple of elderly and angry Israeli tourists. The man took exception to the IFPAL placard which displays the incontrovertible message that the Israeli Occupying Forces killed some 300 children when they invaded Gaza last December and January, a figure that the Zionist tourist claimed was false.

Tommy sought to engage the ranting gentleman in "democratic discussion", but to no avail. Eventually the Israeli summoned a youthful Garda who, without seeking to establish the facts of the matter, instructed Tommy to discontinue his legitimate advocacy and move away from the area. Tommy - who, to the great annoyance of the Garda, continued filming while arguing with him - refused on principle to move from the spot.

A polite and well-spoken American (or Canadian?) couple, who had witnessed the whole thing, sought to convince the Garda that Tommy was in fact the injured party, having been subjected to abuse and intimidation by the Israelis. The Garda was less interested in their evidence than in trying to prevent Tommy from filming this dialogue, and at last announced that he was arresting the intrepid activist "under Section 24 of the 1994 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act for an Offence under Section 8 of the 1994 Criminal Justice Public Order Act."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x362079

youtube video of the whole thing at link.

PomBear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch9ORXw8ulw

disgraceful how our right to peaceful assembly is abused by the Gardaí and the only reason is because its radical non-PC way of thinking. Note: the Jewish man was peacefully asked to debate in a quiet matter but he was the one making the scene

walrusgumble

RedPlanet wrote: »

The story has gone international now.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x362079

youtube video of the whole thing at link.

when are these people going to cop on that they don't have monopoly over persecution etc. i would not mind but nearly all the human rights organisations have noted the horrors of gaza.

his lawyer should have a field day with the copper. hopefully the matter will be heard during the court term and not while on holiday where he may get a cranky judge annoyed of being taken away from the .........

a complaint to the garda ombusman should be on the way.feck all it might do (i do sympathise in a way with the garda but he did not even inform the activist the legislative grounds to move on)

Those protestors annoy me and get in the way.

jumpguy

More Gardai stupidity. The people shouting at the man were the ones disturbing the peace.

PomBear

Deleted User wrote: »

Those protestors annoy me and get in the way.

and you posted this because........?

Stupid and irrelevant post

Kalashnikov_Kid

Oh I love the Gardai's logic of selective reasoning :rolleyes:

Kev_ps3

That video is a disgrace. Some snotty nosed little Guard taking the side of the fat zionists. That man is a hero..

mrsdewinter

Just watched the clip and agree that it's outrageous that a man can be picked up like that for doing nothing more than collecting a few signatures on a Saturday afternoon on Shop Street.
However I don't think the arrest was a political act. Think the young guard found he'd painted himself into a corner by nodding along with the Israeli couple and expected the Galway man to fold his tent quietly. When the campaigner refused to roll over, the cop had to go on the defensive. He certainly didn't cover himself in glory.

walrusgumble

jumpguy wrote: »

More Gardai stupidity. The people shouting at the man were the ones disturbing the peace.

the garda made the matters a whole lot worse. the protester may have being more co-operative in garda's favour if he had made an attempt to listen to him and then explain in proper and understandable terms his (garda's position and his rights to arrest or move someone on)

that carry on by the garda went on for 10 - 15 minutes. the two angry members of the public may have being long gone over the other side of the city by then. the garda should have used a bit of cop on and maybe even warn the protester / advise him to try and not get into that position again (not like it was his own fault) and went off and left the protester in peace

would be interesting to see what reaction the copper might get from a sympathic crowd (to the protester) in say france:eek:

it was kind of funny to watch but christ, imagine if that was a protest over irish issues or love ulster etc and ya got someone with a bit of booze on them, there could have being sparks. one would not want that young garda at the scene. i don't know why he was so bothered being filmed if he was correct in approcahing the activist and he actually had power to do what he did. at least he could stand by his decision.

now compare that garda to a garda in a clip from RTE's I Dare Ya. where the two presenters went down bachelors walk half naked. now granted, it was a different kettle of fish to this, but the cop in the i dare ya clip was able to camly inform the lads (all most by verse) the section and regulations for his authority to get them to move on.

jumpguy

PomBear wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch9ORXw8ulw

disgraceful how our right to peaceful assembly is abused by the Gardaí and the only reason is because its radical non-PC way of thinking. Note: the Jewish man was peacefully asked to debate in a quiet matter but he was the one making the scene

In fairness, watching that video, how the protestor treated the Garda was wrong. All he did was shouted at the man and just made himself come across as another crazy protestor (ie not peaceful). I know if I was a Garda, I'd definetly think he was the man disturbing the peace (the peaceful protestor) because of his rather aggressive attitude. Even the yank pointed it out to him when the yank was trying to give his witness statement. He said "I think you're being self-defeating". The peaceful protestor should not have shouted at the Garda while the Garda was talking, and asked could he speak, state his constituitional rights and ask the Garda to look for witnesses.

mike65

Why does this thread feel like a set-up?

3fullback

Breach of the peace... check
Belligerence... check
Failure to comply with Garda instructions... check
A pain in the arse to walk past on Shop St. in general... check

Kev_ps3

3fullback wrote: »

Breach of the peace... check
Belligerence... check
Failure to comply with Garda instructions... check
A pain in the arse to walk past on Shop St. in general... check
Trample on Irish mans right to protest at deaths of innocent people... check

edited it for you.

Euro_Kraut

If the Palestine guy had just complied with the Garda request not to film while he was talking to the Americans everything would have been fine. He took a belligerent and aggressive attitude to the Gardai and that can only mean trouble.

Part of me wonders if he wasn't delighted to get arrested.

PomBear

jumpguy wrote: »

In fairness, watching that video, how the protestor treated the Garda was wrong. All he did was shouted at the man and just made himself come across as another crazy protestor (ie not peaceful). I know if I was a Garda, I'd definetly think he was the man disturbing the peace (the peaceful protestor) because of his rather aggressive attitude. Even the yank pointed it out to him when the yank was trying to give his witness statement. He said "I think you're being self-defeating". The peaceful protestor should not have shouted at the Garda while the Garda was talking, and asked could he speak, state his constituitional rights and ask the Garda to look for witnesses.

The Gardaí was unwilling to listen to the protester and still arrested him after talking to the American. The Protester asked the Israeli man, 20-30 seconds into the dispute if he'd like to involve in quiet peaceful democratic debate. The protester was not going to make a scene the Israeli man seemed to have been willing to continue and i'd like to point out to other posters, JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THEM PROTESTING, DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE DON'T HAVE AS MUCH RIGHT TO BE THERE AS YOU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_11_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights

cornbb

In fairness the Garda gave him plenty of rope, in the form of a generous number of warnings. If the pro-Isrealis were indeed abusive, at least they had the good sense to move on and not provoke the Garda. It seems to me like the pro-Palestine/cameraman guy was just hoping to get arrested as if it would make him some sort of martyr. He was hysterical, shoving a camera in everyone's face, looking for attention, and he got it.

I'd consider myself a sympathiser with the palestinians but that guy didn't do anyone any favours.

Edit: and to call this a political arrest is ludicrous. Making arrests based on political bias in the establishment is about 20 pay grades above that of the young Garda. If the protestor had had the good sense to know when to shut up he wouldn't have gotten arrested, end of story. Politics don't come into it.

OldJay

mike65 wrote: »

Why does this thread feel like a set-up?

Big style.

Wonder if the PC used by this 'Boycott Israeli Goods' fella contains an Intel chip (now where in the world would that have been designed?) :rolleyes:

Euro_Kraut

PomBear wrote: »

The Gardaí was unwilling to listen to the protester and still arrested him after talking to the American. The Protester asked the Israeli man, 20-30 seconds into the dispute if he'd like to involve in quiet peaceful democratic debate. The protester was not going to make a scene the Israeli man seemed to have been willing to continue and i'd like to point out to other posters, JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THEM PROTESTING, DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE DON'T HAVE AS MUCH RIGHT TO BE THERE AS YOU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_11_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights

JUST BECAUSE YOU PUT SOMETHING IN CAPITALS LETTER DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY MORE CONVINCING.

Seriously, it make you come across as slighty hysterical.

Do you think that Tommy Donnellan could have handled this any better? I do. The Guard could not back down when he insisted on videoing everything. If he even had the cop to hand over the camera to someone else things might have calmed down a bit.

Cannibal Ox

PomBear wrote:

JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THEM PROTESTING, DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE DON'T HAVE AS MUCH RIGHT TO BE THERE AS YOU.

Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights protects the right to freedom of assembly and association, including the right to form trade unions, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society".

Gardai warned protestor repeatedly, the protestor refused, the gardai was within his rights to arrest him.

Also, shouting at people through caps with people who disagree with you on a forum, while simultaneously complaining about people shouting at someone they disagree with...hmm...what's that word I'm looking for? Hypocrisy? Irony? I'm not sure

Kev_ps3

Arnt we forgetting something, the only one in the wrong here was the Jewish couple who LIED to the Garda by telling him he was being abusive to them. Isnt that a crime? Suppose that doesnt matter when you are a blind Zionist.

domrush

lads ya must be taking the piss! Has to be said all the protester had to do was back off for 5 minutes and it would have been sorted out. The garda wasn't exactly a saint but he didn't have much choice after giving him several warnings not to point the camera at the garda and tourist. To be fair to the protester I don't think the garda had the right to force him off the to move.





That jew is a ****ing prick though in every way though.

Turner

cornbb wrote: »

In fairness the Garda gave him plenty of rope, in the form of a generous number of warnings. If the pro-Isrealis were indeed abusive, at least they had the good sense to move on and not provoke the Garda. It seems to me like the pro-Palestine/cameraman guy was just hoping to get arrested as if it would make him some sort of martyr. He was hysterical, shoving a camera in everyone's face, looking for attention, and he got it.

I'd consider myself a sympathiser with the palestinians but that guy didn't do anyone any favours.

Edit: and to call this a political arrest is ludicrous. Making arrests based on political bias in the establishment is about 20 pay grades above that of the young Garda. If the protestor had had the good sense to know when to shut up he wouldn't have gotten arrested, end of story. Politics don't come into it.

Agreed.

The Garda received a complaint.

The Garda notified the person that what he was doing was causing distress to members of the public and asked him to move on. He explained what would happen if he didnt.

The person failed to move on and basically shouted the garda down (in my opinion trying to get arrested or provoke the garda to lose his temper, which he didnt and fair play to him for not doing so)

He got arrested for breaching the public order act which does not make him guilty of any offence. He is only being accused and will go before a judge who will decide.

I think on indymedia :rolleyes: it said he wasnt charged so i presume he will be summonsed and have a chance to fight his corner in court.

mike65

domrush wrote: »

That jew is a fucking prick though in every way though.

Careful now.

Euro_Kraut

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Arnt we forgetting something, the only one in the wrong here was the Jewish couple who LIED to the Garda by telling him he was being abusive to them. Isnt that a crime? Suppose that doesnt matter when you are a blind Zionist.

No that was the initial wrong, not the only one.

johnny1234

It's very easy to side with those in favour that may be wrong. If people learned about the full conflict in this particular piece of the Middle East they might concur to a different opinion. Until the full facts are known, especially refer to those that started the most recent conflict hold off on the personal comments. There is little point in trying to defend those that had losses especially when it was those that started the trouble first.

jpfahy

The Garda had no legal power to prevent himself being filmed, no matter how annoying it may have been to him. There was no breach of the peace committed that I could see. No arrest should have taken place, Garda on dodgy ground there I would think. He obviously didn't spend too long at the station, I wonder why?

PomBear

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

JUST BECAUSE YOU PUT SOMETHING IN CAPITALS LETTER DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY MORE CONVINCING.

Seriously, it make you come across as slighty hysterical.

Do you think that Tommy Donnellan could have handled this any better? I do. The Guard could not back down when he insisted on videoing everything. If he even had the cop to hand over the camera to someone else things might have calmed down a bit.

I'm saying it to the one or two liner posts saying about the 'annoying protests' not everyone who disagrees. I think he should not be afraid when Gardaí threaten him with arrest like so because one, it probably suited him to be arrested, more controversy etc. Two, it supresses his right to assembly. Three, if the Garda attempts to stop his protest, the demonstrator then has every right to video tape the Garda as he is supressing his right and can be used in evidence against the Garda.

AlekSmart

I`m not generally a big fan of the rozzers,but fair play to that young Garda for showing great restraint in the face of what looked and sounded to me like Ignorance :rolleyes:

I note that there is a somewhat sudden beginning to the Video footage.

Sure we have the elderly Israeli roarin an shoutin,but there is a strategic amount of footage missing....the beginning of the oul lads rant or perhaps whatever set him off to begin with.

I am also quite unconvinced at all this talk of the oul Jew being "abusive" or "threatening" to this protester,sure he was fortright and forceful in espressing his disagreement but i`m not so sure this activist would feel at all that threatened by a 70+ gent...or maybe not ?

I suppose if it was`nt the Palestinians there would be some other dispossessed downtrodden group to seek support for(the native,Post NAMA Taxpayers of Ireland spring to mind)

The "right" to engage in peaceful protest is generally held to be one of THE great defining aspects of all "Democratic Constitutions" but i`ve become somewhat pink on all that stuff at this stage as it invariably seems to boil down to "activists" roaring at each other before exchanging blows.
Oddly enough,I find that those who espouse pacifism tend to be rather adept at the oul puglism when it comes down to it:D

I note too a bit of self-servery about the follier upper with the two supportive Lads .....
Central Casting....?
At least the second "witness" had the nous to belatedly reveal the fact that HE had not actually witnessed EVERYTHING but happened upon it in mid-act after the dies were cast
Worse still is the end of the clip...with the young man`s offer to put the wronged activist in "touch with his dad".....we are left clinging to the edges of our seats as we await the Court Lists for the Western Circuit.

Perhaps OT,but up to this I was leaning towards Voting NO to Lisbon.....however reading the vid`s background stuff and then listening to this lad has made me a bit wobbly

However until I get to see (and hear) what occurred in the lead up to the Video clip I`ll reserve judgement...How`s that for ecumenical thinking

Nuggles

I love the editing of the youtube video. Even if I hadn't been on the street when the commotion started and seen that the guy behind the table was disturbing the peace and being an arsehole in general, I would have suspected it having watched the video.

Protest if you will, but if you're going to achieve anything protesting, you should try engaging in sensible debate instead of shouting brainless slogans at the public.

I hate to think what the fella would have said had he heard the idiot teenager that past me say "up Israeli bombers".

_ZeeK_

3fullback wrote: »

Breach of the peace... check
Belligerence... check
Failure to comply with Garda instructions... check
A pain in the arse to walk past on Shop St. in general... check

Don't agree with the last point, but thats a matter of personal preference.

Freedom of expression is indeed a fundamental right, important in any democratic society. HOWEVER, it is not an absolute right. It can be subject to other rights, such as public order and morality.

We have to remember that the man was arrested NOT for a peaceful protest, but instead for failing to comply with Garda orders and being belligerent and uncooperative. True, the Garda could have been more tactile in his initial approach, but had the protestor allowed the Garda to conduct his enquiry with the American couple he would not have been arrested and the Garda (we would hope) would have seen sense and realised that it was the Jewish fellow that was causing the animosity and allowed the protest to continue.

Have to agree with the American gentleman who said that the protestor was being "self-defeating".

Kalashnikov_Kid

_ZeeK_ wrote: »

Don't agree with the last point, but thats a matter of personal preference.

Freedom of expression is indeed a fundamental right, important in any democratic society. HOWEVER, it is not an absolute right. It can be subject to other rights, such as public order and morality.

We have to remember that the man was arrested NOT for a peaceful protest, but instead for failing to comply with Garda orders and being belligerent and uncooperative. True, the Garda could have been more tactile in his initial approach, but had the protestor allowed the Garda to conduct his enquiry with the American couple he would not have been arrested and the Garda (we would hope) would have seen sense and realised that it was the Jewish fellow that was causing the animosity and allowed the protest to continue.

Have to agree with the American gentleman who said that the protestor was being "self-defeating".

I agree that there was a bit of the Rossport in the protester involved, but still doesn't mean the Garda necessarily made the right decision (and I'm not suggesting you imply this, just wanted to mention it). Actually the Garda would probably chalk it down as inexperiece on reflection - he seemed to have cornered himself between a rock and a hard place.

thebman

johnny1234 wrote: »

It's very easy to side with those in favour that may be wrong. If people learned about the full conflict in this particular piece of the Middle East they might concur to a different opinion. Until the full facts are known, especially refer to those that started the most recent conflict hold off on the personal comments. There is little point in trying to defend those that had losses especially when it was those that started the trouble first.

Who started is really of little importance when two sides retaliate for years as the original point of the conflict usually disappears and it becomes about one upping the other side rather than resolving any conflict or solving any problems.

ScumLord

Yerman came off as a bit of a self righteous dumbass. I'm not surprised some Israeli would eventually take offence to his posters and message TBH.

The guard shouldn't have told him to move on though, I think he was in the wrong but yerman shot himself in the foot and in the end the guard probably had the right to arrest him based on his reactions.

I've passed that guy on a number of occasions his never gone out of his way to stop people he just sat behind his table spouting uneducated muck.

Chorcai

At 4.25 he should have followed the Garda's orders. The Garda was talking to a witness, he did come across as a bit of nut job, and as the American guy pointed out he wasn't doing himself any favours. I would like to see 5mins before hand to hear what he said to the two people as the woman alleged.

Am I right in thinking that because this took place in a public area, no one has the right not to be filmed etc ?

On the subject of what he was protesting, I would tend to agree.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/23/obama-jewish-settlements-isreal

"Hardline pro-Israel groups in the US have been confronting President Barack Obama's demands for a halt to settlement expansion by accusing him of promoting the ethnic cleansing of Jews and jeopardising Israel's security."

Also here's something interesting !

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8218564.stm

Israel apartheid?

_ZeeK_

public places - generally all's fair with photography and filming (some exceptions with children and the like).

if police were heavy handed in dealing with riots or protests turned violent, we wouldn't want journalists to be not be able to record that, now would we?

raindog.promo

https://www.indymedia.ie/article/3780?save_prefs=true

OldJay

Have to laugh at all this 'outrage'.

Left-wing political 'action' groups, such as this fella's, are going to be more visible now simply because they are involved in the 'No' Vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum. Thats all. They're selling a 'No' vote on emotional blackmail and conveniently tilted views.

Something very sanctimonious and hypocritical about said ilk. If they really gave a stuff about what goes on in Israel and/or Palestine, they'd be camped outside the Israeli Embassy protesting.
I work beside that Embassy and haven't seen anyone there since january.

dlofnep

Nonsense.

The only person in the wrong here was that Israeli-sympathizer and that Garda. The man had not done anything wrong and was abused and harassed by a member of public. Then they inacurrately reported it to the Gardaí that the man was responsible for harassing them. That man in the beard should have been arrested for a false report.

The man stood his ground and was being removed in the wrong - He had every right to challenge the terrible decision of the Garda.

OldJay

dlofnep wrote: »

Nonsense

If you don't think there's a connection between the No to Lisbon movement and these 'action' groups then that's not my problem.

Hmmm...I'm looking out the window over at the Embassy and there's still no protestors. Where've they gone?? :eek:

RedPlanet

Justind wrote: »

If you don't think there's a connection between the No to Lisbon movement and these 'action' groups then that's not my problem.

If you've ever visited Galway you'd know that the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign has been a regular feature of Shop St for a number of years.
Long, long before the Lisbon treaty. :rolleyes:

Justind wrote: »

Hmmm...I'm looking out the window over at the Embassy and there's still no protestors. Where've they gone?? :eek:

Why don't you ask the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign that very question?
http://www.ipsc.ie/
It's a bit pointless repeatedly posting that question here.