Teachers Union orders teachers to stop teaching should the number be too high!

Mario007

Anyone heard of this: http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/teachers-ordered-to-walk-out-of-classes-1871897.html


basically the unions are telling the teachers to stop teaching the students should the number of students in the class breach an agreement that was agreed upon within the union. I don't get it, this is taking kids for hostage in an attempt to get the government to borrow more money and give it to the schools. i mean shouldn't the unions think about maybe taking a paycut during the recession and maybe then we'd have the money to invest in the education system?

Sand

Its even odder when you consider what a side show the student-teacher ratio is, but the teacher unions sieze on it like it is the lynchpin of the entire edifice of education...

Rebelheart

Teachers have a privileged position in Irish society. The surprising thing is that they do not have a similar position in all societies across the occidental world.

There is something wrong when a mere lawyer or accountant can be held in more esteem than a teacher, somebody in whom Irish parents entrust their children's education, happiness and a very large part of their childhood.


Whatever changes may be made to teaching as a profession, I would like our society to continue to value the often extraordinary role of teachers in Irish life. One final point, it should be borne in mind that teachers of today have a much more difficult job than teachers of, say, 50 years ago when the social "standards" of a strong church, "reliable" moral values, respect for "authority" and much else gave moral support to the teacher's daily work. This radical change, at the very least, should be factored into any discussion of teachers in 2009.

irish_bob

Rebelheart wrote: »

Teachers have a privileged position in Irish society. The surprising thing is that they do not have a similar position in all societies across the occidental world.

There is something wrong when a mere lawyer or accountant can be held in more esteem than a teacher, somebody in whom Irish parents entrust their children's education, happiness and a very large part of their childhood.


Whatever changes may be made to teaching as a profession, I would like our society to continue to value the often extraordinary role of teachers in Irish life. One final point, it should be borne in mind that teachers of today have a much more difficult job than teachers of, say, 50 years ago when the social "standards" of a strong church, "reliable" moral values, respect for "authority" and much else gave moral support to the teacher's daily work. This radical change, at the very least, should be factored into any discussion of teachers in 2009.

you have it arsways , rightly or wrongly , teachers in ireland have higher status than they do in most other countries , particulary in the usa , outside ireland , a teacher is seen as a very modest job , this is of course reflected in the very high pay teachers recieve in ireland

jdivision

Rebelheart wrote: »

This radical change, at the very least, should be factored into any discussion of teachers in 2009.

It's certainly valued in terms of pay for work not done under supervision, work that used to be considered part of the job. Any discussion of teachers should also discuss the requirement to remove those not capable of doing their jobs.

As for class sizes:
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/11/11/story28180.asp

spank_inferno

Since when have the unions every been afraid to use the vulnerable as pawns in their game of greed?

Its the same when consultants have a fit and they wheel out the sick and elderly who are going to suffer while still tending to their private patients

Sand

As for class sizes:
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/...story28180.asp

Its very much easier for teachers to pretend teacher-student ratios is critical as opposed to pay any attention to the reports reccomendation that it is teachers themselves that are critical: that might mean more work. Easier to blame meaningless ratios.

imokyrok

Sand wrote: »

Its very much easier for teachers to pretend teacher-student ratios is critical as opposed to pay any attention to the reports reccomendation that it is teachers themselves that are critical: that might mean more work. Easier to blame meaningless ratios.

I think most parents of children in urban national schools would agree that class numbers are way out of control. I'm certainly not in favour of further detioration and if that requires teachers to take a hardline stance I'm fully behind them. Schools are not babysitting facilities.

spurious

They are just restating the directive on class size - which was agreed with the government. Nothing has changed from last year.

It's a non-story and it's not even new.
Oh, it's the Indo.

irish_bob

imokyrok wrote: »

I think most parents of children in urban national schools would agree that class numbers are way out of control. I'm certainly not in favour of further detioration and if that requires teachers to take a hardline stance I'm fully behind them. Schools are not babysitting facilities.

its very simple , the reason we have such large class sizes and sub standard facilities in education is due to the fact that like every state sector , the bulk of expenditure goes on wages , if teachers are so concerned about pupils suffering due to the size of classes , let them as a whole simply take a pay cut , they are the highest paid teachers in europe , with this comes consequences and lack of funding in other areas , especially in a time of rescession , time the public saw through thier weasel words and stopped being such suckers

imokyrok

irish_bob wrote: »

its very simple , the reason we have such large class sizes and sub standard facilities in education is due to the fact that like every state sector , the bulk of expenditure goes on wages , if teachers are so concerned about pupils suffering due to the size of classes , let them as a whole simply take a pay cut , they are the highest paid teachers in europe , with this comes consequences and lack of funding in other areas , especially in a time of rescession , time the public saw through thier weasel words and stopped being such suckers

The state sector was already taken a defacto wage cut. I don't object to having my taxes pay decent wages to qualified professional teachers . I want to keep the best and the brightest in the profession. The class size problem has been an issue for as long as I can remember- well back into the period when FF were fooling the Bertie is God crew in to believing in the celtic tiger.

amacca

irish_bob wrote: »

you have it arsways , rightly or wrongly , teachers in ireland have higher status than they do in most other countries , particulary in the usa , outside ireland , a teacher is seen as a very modest job , this is of course reflected in the very high pay teachers recieve in ireland

Isn't that exactly what the poster said?

how can he have it arseways when he has said almost exactly what you said only he said it first?

or am I missing something?

see below

Originally Posted by Rebelheart
Teachers have a privileged position in Irish society. The surprising thing is that they do not have a similar position in all societies across the occidental world.

gurramok

imokyrok wrote: »

The state sector was already taken a defacto wage cut. I don't object to having my taxes pay decent wages to qualified professional teachers . I want to keep the best and the brightest in the profession. The class size problem has been an issue for as long as I can remember- well back into the period when FF were fooling the Bertie is God crew in to believing in the celtic tiger.

That's a pension levy, you get it back.

I don't mind them been well paid either, i object to them been overpaid, i don't want them to bleed the ocuntry dry on overpaid wages.

Average primary school teachers are on €60kpa, unjustifiable.http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html

irish_bob

imokyrok wrote: »

The state sector was already taken a defacto wage cut. I don't object to having my taxes pay decent wages to qualified professional teachers . I want to keep the best and the brightest in the profession. The class size problem has been an issue for as long as I can remember- well back into the period when FF were fooling the Bertie is God crew in to believing in the celtic tiger.

well i for one have a problem with europes sickest economy having europes highest paid teachers , nurses and police , ,irish teachers are paid 55% more than in finland which is a richer country than us , they are paid close to 30% more than in the uk which is also a richer country than us , the arguement that unless you dont pay theese people such high salarys , they will go elsewhere is nonesense , thier not exceptionally talented people with such a large degree of options

Mr.Micro

Teachers Union orders teachers to stop teaching should the number be too high!

Since there are so many bad teachers in the system that should be no bother then for a good number of them.

Trotter

irish_bob wrote: »

thier not exceptionally talented people with such a large degree of options

Sorry but statements like that reek of a dislike of teachers that goes beyond what they get paid.

I assume you've met all teachers in Ireland and have come to the conclusion that none of them are exceptionally talented.

I really do believe that some people would prefer all the teachers to be sacked and thrown towards the breadline. That'd get back at them wouldnt it?

The reality is we're paid a lot. The reality is we have too many children in the classroom and it makes it a behaviour management exercise and not a learning experience.

Should we take a pay cut? Maybe! Am I on 60k? Absolutely not.. You need to be in my job for more than 20 years before you hit 60k.

Add 5k average to these figures as a qualification allowance that totals our final figure. Pay Scale for Primary Teachers

There's no objectivity on boards when talking about the teaching profession. Some people have a rotten agenda that comes from personal experiences that then powers a generalised view that isnt accurate.

I'd struggle hard if I lost any more of my wages. I'm far from thinking about my pension at the moment. Im thinking about paying the mortgage.

Im jaded from listening to people who hate teachers. Im tired of being treated like scum for wanting to teach children and be paid well for it. I'm tired of the assertion that people who arent clever enough to work in a "real job" become teachers. I left the private sector in 2000 to work towards being a teacher and I was laughed at because I took a pay cut to do it.

Im not in the TUI so I'm not bound by this decision. I'll teach however many children that are put in front of me. It'll be over 30 this year. The class size reality is that I'd have a lot more time for each individual child if I had 25 or 26.

If we took a 10% paycut, does anyone really think the class sizes would be reduced? Seriously? Or would the sight of teachers taking huge paycuts really make people happy because they hated their own teachers?

Anyway.. My post will be disregarded.. We're all overpaid underachievers who didnt have the intellect to do a real job so we're hiding in a classroom while the children learn from themselves. Give me a break.

FlutterinBantam

I have no problem giving you a break, just don't (not you personally) treat the general public as idiots and expect them to think that it's the children is your prime concern.


Give us credit for some cop on.

Trotter

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I have no problem giving you a break, just don't (not you personally) treat the general public as idiots and expect them to think that it's the children is your prime concern.


Give us credit for some cop on.

Maybe I'm not the average then, because I gave up a bigger wage to do this job because teaching children is a primary concern for me. My prime concern is paying my mortgage and supporting my family. Is it unbelieveable that I am motivated and concerned with making sure my students do well? Its a kick in the ass for people who really do put their heart and soul into this job to have their motivation questioned and tarnished. I'm not saying all teachers are like me.. far from it, but we arent all treating the public like idiots. I've been in the private sector so I can see it from that side. I've done nothing wrong. I've treated nobody like an idiot. I work hard from 8:30am until around 4 every day. I take a lot of work home. I get well paid, and if I believed the class sizes would come down I'd take another cut in my basic take home pay.

We arent all the same. I do care about the children I teach, otherwise I wouldnt have resigned from the private sector.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Give us credit for some cop on.

What should I say to this? I'm not sure what you want me to do in order to give you credit. I can only tell you what I do and what I think personally. Its hard to be rational when you hear things regularly like "Those who cant work, teach".. Its insulting personally.

ixoy

Trotter wrote: »

The reality is we're paid a lot. The reality is we have too many children in the classroom and it makes it a behaviour management exercise and not a learning experience.

Well it's good, if nothing else, to see a teacher admit they are paid well - from those charts you linked, someone just qualified in teaching could be on 38k a year starting out for working 9/10 months a year.

So clearly pay isn't an issue and so do you really believe those teachers who complain about class size are actually doing it out of interest for their pupils? Sure maybe you are but would a 20% increase in class size mean that the 16% less time you have for pupils would make that much of a difference to a child's education? Why not do some extra work outside of hours? I was talking to someone at work recently and he said he'd love to get into teaching because of the sweet deal they had regarding hours - that was based on his gf who is a full-time teacher in a disadvantaged area.

Trotter

ixoy wrote: »

Well it's good, if nothing else, to see a teacher admit they are paid well - from those charts you linked, someone just qualified in teaching could be on 38k a year starting out for working 9/10 months a year.

So clearly pay isn't an issue and so do you really believe those teachers who complain about class size are actually doing it out of interest for their pupils? Sure maybe you are but would a 20% increase in class size mean that the 16% less time you have for pupils would make that much of a difference to a child's education? Why not do some extra work outside of hours? I was talking to someone at work recently and he said he'd love to get into teaching because of the sweet deal they had regarding hours - that was based on his gf who is a full-time teacher in a disadvantaged area.

I didn't say pay isn't an issue. I want to keep my wages as they are! Who doesn't??

I believe a hell of a lot of teachers really do care and are "doing it out of interest for their pupils".. I work with them!

I spend a couple of hours every evening planning, setting up lessons, etc. etc. I spend my days trying to help these kids, but I want to go home in the evening to my own life. Is that a sin? Our curriculum at primary level was redesigned around 2000 for smaller class sizes, group work activities, group learning etc. Its really difficult to do a science experiment properly with 30 children of varying levels.

The ideal situation is for the country to invest money in reducing the size of the class so that I can teach this new curriculum. If I needed to take a 10% pay cut for that to happen, I would! But... If I took that 10% pay cut, nothing would happen to those class sizes. Nothing.

You ask if I'd do extra classes in the evening? I would if I didnt spend the evenings already working on preparation and the admin side of the job. There comes a time in the evening when everyone wants to go home to their families. I'm no different.

population

I think it is important to distinguish between new entrants into the profession and the older teachers who in all honesty are very well paid and have very good terms and conditions relating to their employment.

Newer teachers seem to be getting into the proffession for the right reasons as opposed to some of the old brigade who, if my schooldays were anything to go by, do not have childrens best interests at heart. I am not saying this about every teacher, but dear oh dear at least 4 of my secondary school teachers needed sacking. One was an alcoholic, I dont mean he was a bit tipsy from time to time, he was a full blown alcoholic who came into work every couple of days, shouted abuse at students and staggered home.

I paid for grinds to make up for his lack of teaching which my folks could barely afford and I managed to scrape a pass in the subject. I left school 16 years ago. He is still there. How has this man not been fired?

The teachers need to face up to their internal problems. I see no justification for increasing class sizes and absolutely discipline is harder to deal with than ever before, but if the teachers cause is to be taken seriously then they have to be willing to ruthlessly strip out the dead wood and not support every issue in the same NO NO NO "its the children we are doing this for etc" manner. If it was the children that were the main concern this otherwise unemployable individual would be unemployed and children would not have to ask their folks for grind money to make up for his shortcomings.

di2772

Mario007 wrote: »

Anyone heard of this: http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/teachers-ordered-to-walk-out-of-classes-1871897.html


basically the unions are telling the teachers to stop teaching the students should the number of students in the class breach an agreement that was agreed upon within the union. I don't get it, this is taking kids for hostage in an attempt to get the government to borrow more money and give it to the schools. i mean shouldn't the unions think about maybe taking a paycut during the recession and maybe then we'd have the money to invest in the education system?

Good, about time someone stood up to be counted.

I, for one, dont want my kids in larger classes.

I think the teachers do a great job. I have a lot of respect for them.

I was on the board of management at my kids school and i found out how valuable teachers really are. I also found out they work a lot harder than i thought they did too.

Anyone who wants to slate teachers should go and get on a schools board of management and find out what the job actually involves. And not assume they know what a teachers job entails, just because they went to school when they were children.

Trotter

di2772 wrote: »

Anyone who wants to slate teachers should go and get on a schools board of management and find out what the job actually involves. And not assume they know what a teachers job entails, just because they went to school when they were children.

Thanks.. Thats 1 anyway..

astrofool

What needs to be broken with teachers is the idea of tenure, that people who profoundly can't teach, can be unsackable, is ridiculous. It also keeps younger teachers, who can teach, out of a job.

MrMicra

di2772 wrote: »

I think the teachers do a great job. I have a lot of respect for them.

I was educated in Italy, the USA, Ireland and Australia. The quality of teaching was lowest in Ireland. We don't have especially good teachers in this country. We certainly don't have teachers so good that they should be paid much more that teachers in richer countries.

RedPlanet

jdivision wrote: »

It's certainly valued in terms of pay for work not done under supervision, work that used to be considered part of the job. Any discussion of teachers should also discuss the requirement to remove those not capable of doing their jobs.

As for class sizes:
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/11/11/story28180.asp

That's interesting, however there are a lot more studies that show better results in smaller class sizes.
http://www.classsizematters.org/research.html

Sand

Id imagine, regardless of class size, its the minority of disinterested "messers" that will tend to take up the majority of a teachers time. 4 or 5 problem kids in a class of 25 is more manageable than say 35 where everyone is effectively on the same page in terms of ability and interest?

di2772

MrMicra wrote: »

I was educated in Italy, the USA, Ireland and Australia. The quality of teaching was lowest in Ireland. We don't have especially good teachers in this country. We certainly don't have teachers so good that they should be paid much more that teachers in richer countries.

I would have the opposite view.
Having been educated in the USA, UK and Ireland (Im not counting University because that is down to yourself and not your teachers), i would rate Ireland as No. 1 by a long way, from my experience. And im glad my kids are being educated here too.

Taxipete29

MrMicra wrote: »

I was educated in Italy, the USA, Ireland and Australia. The quality of teaching was lowest in Ireland. We don't have especially good teachers in this country. We certainly don't have teachers so good that they should be paid much more that teachers in richer countries.

The problem with what you are saying here is that is limited to your own experience. I had some great teachers during my time in school. I also had a couple that were terrible. I also had a couple of teachers who were obviously
highly talented within their own subject but had difficulty teaching it to a level that benefitted all students, not just the really good ones.

Smaller classes has always been the key to delivering a better education to all students.

The fact that wealthier countries pay teachers less is a red herring. Those wealthier countries are less expensive overall to live in.

I asked this in another thread and I will ask it again here. How important do you rate the job of a teacher??

MrMicra

In the modern age do we even need teachers? Surely we can create structured self learning tools to allow children to teach themselves?

I suppose I don't think teachers are important at all they are part of an 19th century educational model we are using in the 21st century.

How many teachers in Ireland actually THINK about education.

Euro_Kraut

MrMicra wrote: »

In the modern age do we even need teachers? Surely we can create structured self learning tools to allow children to teach themselves?

I kinda see where you are coming from. Their definetly needs to be come self learning in the Irish Education system (most teachers would agree with that).

However we cannot expect 5 year old to learn by themselves. I doubt many parents would be willing to invest the time to educate their children at home. As kids grow up thought there definitely should be scope for more self learning.

population

MrMicra wrote: »

In the modern age do we even need teachers? Surely we can create structured self learning tools to allow children to teach themselves?

I suppose I don't think teachers are important at all they are part of an 19th century educational model we are using in the 21st century.

How many teachers in Ireland actually THINK about education.

We still need electricity and that was invented a few centuries ago.

Self learning does not really work with kids, particularly teenagers. University is different and I think at that point you are old enough to live and die by how much you put in. Have absolutely no sympathy for college students who balls up their courses.

Anyway back on topic; a good education system fundamentally needs good teachers

Mario007

i suppose the fundamental question here is, if teachers are doing all this just out of the care for the children, why are they taking them as hostage? and even more strikingly would teachers be willing to take a 15% paycut to decrease the teacher-student ratio that they talk about so much?

irish_bob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The problem with what you are saying here is that is limited to your own experience. I had some great teachers during my time in school. I also had a couple that were terrible. I also had a couple of teachers who were obviously
highly talented within their own subject but had difficulty teaching it to a level that benefitted all students, not just the really good ones.

Smaller classes has always been the key to delivering a better education to all students.

The fact that wealthier countries pay teachers less is a red herring. Those wealthier countries are less expensive overall to live in.

I asked this in another thread and I will ask it again here. How important do you rate the job of a teacher??

ireland being an expensive country to live in is a whole other issue , rip off ireland cannot be used as the main arguement for disproportionatley high paid public servants , ireland should not be paying its teachers more than countries that are wealthier than her

di2772

Mario007 wrote: »

i suppose the fundamental question here is, if teachers are doing all this just out of the care for the children, why are they taking them as hostage? and even more strikingly would teachers be willing to take a 15% paycut to decrease the teacher-student ratio that they talk about so much?

Time to get real here.
Nobody will, or indeed should, take a pay cut to improve their output at work.

Thats like asking an office worker with a clapped out typewriter would they take a 15% pay cut so they could get a new computer which would improve the quality of their work.

The problem here is that most people havent got the foggiest idea about the job of a teacher, yet they all think that they know everything about it.
Go and get on the BOM of a school. Then come back and talk with authority on what teachers do. I found this out myself. Just having gone to school does not make us experts at what the job teaching involves.

dingding

gurramok wrote: »

That's a pension levy, you get it back.

I am a public sector employee and I would have a better pension when I was in the private sector.

I found my pension statement from 12 years ago.

Then I would have had a defined benefit pension of 2/3 and I would also would have got a pension based on my PRSI contributions.

I would have paid about 6% for the pension with my employer paying about another 12%.


In my current job I will get half my final pay less my PRSI contribution.


So in 1998 I would have got 12K + 4.5 K PRSI pension on a pay of 19K.

While a public sector employee (paying a class A stamp)would get 9.5K on a pay of 19K

In the private sector I would have been about 7K better off at pension time on a comparable pay, paying less of a contribution.

Mario007

di2772 wrote: »

Time to get real here.
Nobody will, or indeed should, take a pay cut to improve their output at work.

Thats like asking an office worker with a clapped out typewriter would they take a 15% pay cut so they could get a new computer which would improve the quality of their work.

The problem here is that most people havent got the foggiest idea about the job of a teacher, yet they all think that they know everything about it.
Go and get on the BOM of a school. Then come back and talk with authority on what teachers do. I found this out myself. Just having gone to school does not make us experts at what the job teaching involves.

why not? if they are protesting about helping to 'save the children' then why not?
if they want their wages to stay the same, then ok, but i want them to say it out loud. i don't want this hiding behind the children stuff...
plus i've just come out of secondary school and i know its very tough out there, as some kids simply wont listen at all but i can compare 3 different education systems and teachers from 3 different countries and i can say that the irish teachers, for the most part, weren't worth that high salary that they are earning. those few teachers that i had that were worth the salary actually wanted to give up their high wages due to recession to help the state....

CathalMc

I think all this cutting wages / lazy teachers talk is a bit childish. I think something more productive might be solutions to two issues. I'd love if the resident teachers might chip in on these.

Teachers get three months off, which is I think is unwarranted by the relatively comfortable level of reimbursement. Therefore, I think we should be getting at least another 2 months work from these public servants, 2 months of extra economic benefit. What could teachers do for an extra 2 summer months?

Teacher work evaluation - how do you evaluate the quality of a teachers work, given the variability in their raw materials (students), and the lack of direct supervision and performance evaluation during school hours. Exam grades as an evaluation tool seem like they would need a lot of statistical work to reflect the variance in class ability, outside influences, etc. Would anyone disagree that making the teacher profession more of a meritocracy would benefit everyone, in particular talented teachers?

Taxipete29

irish_bob wrote: »

ireland being an expensive country to live in is a whole other issue , rip off ireland cannot be used as the main arguement for disproportionatley high paid public servants , ireland should not be paying its teachers more than countries that are wealthier than her

Teachers are hardly at the higher end of the public service pay scale. What would you consider a comparable position in the private sector and what level of pay does that position command.?

irish_bob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Teachers are hardly at the higher end of the public service pay scale. What would you consider a comparable position in the private sector and what level of pay does that position command.?

i dont believe in benchmarking teachers salarys against ( take your pick ) proffession in the private sector , i believe in benchmarking them against thier european counterparts , as for them not being at the higher end of the public sector scale , just because their not on the same wages as a doctor doesnt mean thier not very well paid

Taxipete29

irish_bob wrote: »

i dont believe in benchmarking teachers salarys against ( take your pick ) proffession in the private sector , i believe in benchmarking them against thier european counterparts , as for them not being at the higher end of the public sector scale , just because their not on the same wages as a doctor doesnt mean thier not very well paid

You cant benchmark like that. Its not comparing like with like. Do we live in an overly expensive country? Yes. Can we change this overnight? No. Like it or not this is an expensive country to live in and unless that changes significantly there is no basis on which to reduce the salaries of teachers.

Teachers are paid a good salary. They however are an integral part of this country. They teach our children. Are you ever going to answer my question

How important do you rate the job of a teacher??

Is it possible you are avoiding it because your answer would force you to concede my central point??

Riskymove

Taxipete29 wrote: »

unless that changes significantly there is no basis on which to reduce the salaries of teachers.

the basis for reducing public sector wages (including teachers) is that the country is under severe financial pressure and cannot afford the current bill. the suggestion that a reduction in pay would mean people would not become teachers is a red herring (perhaps if it was severly reduced to minimum wage or sometthing!); e.g. a 10% reduction would not change a thing in relation to people wanting to become teachers.

However, I don't agree with the idea of benchmarking at all (domestic or foreign), benchmarking has led to all sorts of issues that we have today and should be gotten rid of.

Taxipete29

Riskymove wrote: »

the basis for reducing public sector wages (including teachers) is that the country is under severe financial pressure and cannot afford the current bill. the suggestion that a reduction in pay would mean people would not become teachers is a red herring (perhaps if it was severly reduced to minimum wage or sometthing!); e.g. a 10% reduction would not change a thing in relation to people wanting to become teachers.

However, I don't agree with the idea of benchmarking at all (domestic or foreign), benchmarking has led to all sorts of issues that we have today and should be gotten rid of.

I do not disagree with the need for reform of the public sector wage bill. This includes politicians running up huge expenses at massive cost to the taxpayer. It is ridiculous to suggest cutting the pay of vital front line public sector staff when this situation continues unchecked.

I disgaree that its a red herring. I would imagine the numbers will already be coming down considering most newly qualified teachers cant get a job in the present climate. Why would they not be further reduced if wages were cut??

Riskymove

Taxipete29 wrote: »

It is ridiculous to suggest cutting the pay of vital front line public sector staff when this situation continues unchecked.

I disagree, the "front line" staff in the public sector make up a huge proportion of it; its a common refrain but if we could really solve our problems by cutting a few manager types it would be very straightforward.

sure politicians pay and expenses etc need attention but it will save hardly any money in the greater scheme of things

I disgaree that its a red herring. I would imagine the numbers will already be coming down considering most newly qualified teachers cant get a job in the present climate. Why would they not be further reduced if wages were cut??

an embargo on recruitment will obviously have an effect but I dont think a reasonable paycut would

if you wanted to be a teacher and the pay was say €40,000 would you really change all that if it was €36,000 instead? Given the pay increases in recent times the salary of a teacher would have been less lets say 5 years ago, while house prices etc would have been higher, did people stop becoming teachers?

what would all these would-be teachers (applies to would-be nurses, guards etc too) become instead?

Taxipete29

Riskymove wrote: »

I disagree, the "front line" staff in the public sector make up a huge proportion of it; its a common refrain but if we could really solve our problems by cutting a few manager types it would be very straightforward.

sure politicians pay and expenses etc need attention but it will save hardly any money in the greater scheme of things

It doesnt matter how little it would save. It all adds up at the en of the day.

Teachers, Nurses, Guards etc are the areas which should be untouchable. I have no problem with them being made more accountable and easier to discharge those who have poor job performance. The fact is though you dont improve education by cutting the pay of the primary providers.

Riskymove wrote: »

an embargo on recruitment will obviously have an effect but I dont think a reasonable paycut would

if you wanted to be a teacher and the pay was say €40,000 would you really change all that if it was €36,000 instead? Given the pay increases in recent times the salary of a teacher would have been less lets say 5 years ago, while house prices etc would have been higher, did people stop becoming teachers?

what would all these would-be teachers (applies to would-be nurses, guards etc too) become instead?

No but how many people who would otherwise of choosen different career paths became teachers because the financial rewards made it more appealing. When it comes to teachers we should always be looking to attract the best and the brightest. These people may choose other options should that reward be reduced. This reduces the competition. Thats never a good thing.

I have no idea what people would choose to do. Thats really not a question anyone is capable of answering considering all the variables.

Riskymove

The fact is though you dont improve education by cutting the pay of the primary providers.

When it comes to teachers we should always be looking to attract the best and the brightest.

my basic point is that, if the pay of a teacher has been increased to such a point that its a well-paid job, then a small decrease to reflect the current circumstances is not going to change things

even with a pay cut a teaching job would be extremely attractive to much of the workforce/students

LoLth

as far as refusing to teach classes that are over an agreed ratio, is this not simply a version of "work to rule" ? Isnt working to the exact letter of their agreements better than a strike ? seriously, there was a thread on here before about how terrible it was that the teachers intended to strike once the school year started, shouldnt this thread (and the indo's reporting) be more along the lines of "promised strike averted, work to rule policy adopted instead" ). A lot of teachers do a lot more than they are contracted, or even paid, to do. I would say parents of children in schools are breathign a sigh of relief that it isnt a full work to rule policy being undertaken.

In the past, as a non-union worker, I've adopted a work to rule policy before when a manger balled me over being 10 minutes late for work (bus was stuck in traffic) but happily ignored the lunches I worked through and the fact that I regularly stayed an extra hour to hour and a half to work of servers without disrupting the sales teams. It caused a few problems but the manager quickly realised that ten minutes (and not even ten minutes where something had gone wrong!) was not too much of a transgression after all. - I ended up getting a "commuting time allowance" written into my contract that allowed for unforeseen circumstances, and the manager official verbal warning revoked.

@irish_bob : I would be happy to have my wages compared to european counterparts when my mortgage repayments, car tax, car insurance, electricity costs, gas costs, broadband quality (for some its not just a source of entertainment, its a tool for work) and costs, public transport costs etc etc etc etc are also compared.

Taxipete29

Riskymove wrote: »

my basic point is that, if the pay of a teacher has been increased to such a point that its a well-paid job, then a small decrease to reflect the current circumstances is not going to change things

even with a pay cut a teaching job would be extremely attractive to much of the workforce/students

It may well be but I would never be in favour of decreases in teacher pay unless we had even more significant decreases in the cost of living.

Stabshauptmann

imokyrok wrote: »

I want to keep the best and the brightest in the profession.

Secondary school teachers are no where need the best and the brightest.
It is easy to become a secondary school teacher, there are many entry routes to the H-Dip.
The most common is Arts, which requires very low LC / CAO points and very few hours a week.

The job itself isnt intellectually challenging. The books and syllabus are provided, and the exams are handled by an external party. The skills required are communication skills and controlling teenagers, not intelligence.

edit/ Primary teachers are a very different kettle of fish imo

bernardo mac

Thinking of teaching? Pay is fairly good and so are the "hols",but you will need them to recover,if you are an overly sensitive soul.Tread carefully for the classroom can be a veritable minefield

Stabshauptmann

Rebelheart wrote: »

There is something wrong when a mere lawyer or accountant can be held in more esteem than a teacher, somebody in whom Irish parents entrust their children's education, happiness and a very large part of their childhood.

Yes, bizzare, its not like those professionals by and large did better in their leaving certs, studied more hours at university, spent another 3+ years getting qualified in practice and make difficult decisions on a day-to-day basis.

Yes, a mere lawyer or accountant, sure anybody could be one couldnt they?

50 years ago when the social "standards" of a strong church, "reliable" moral values, respect for "authority" and much else gave moral support to the teacher's daily work. This radical change, at the very least, should be factored into any discussion of teachers in 2009.

What you call diminishing standards I call progress.