Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

The Students' Union & Abortion

«1345

Comments

  • #2
    Señor Juárez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭Señor Juárez


    Cantab. wrote: »
    Regarding the SU website. I see they're still peddling abortion services. I understand the SU will even pay for your abortion if you cry hard enough.

    You are an anti-choicer I take it? Please take your forceful opinions elsewhere.


  • #3
    Cantab.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭Cantab.


    Señor Juárez wrote: »
    You are an anti-choicer I take it? Please take your forceful opinions elsewhere.

    I'd prefer if the SU did tbqh.


  • #4
    Cantab.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭Cantab.


    I see they also have the number of the "Irish Family Planning Association" listed. In theory, I like the idea of an SU, but that's one step too far.


  • #5
    Señor Juárez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭Señor Juárez


    Posting 3 times in a row is a Nazi Druid trick.

    KNEW IT


  • #6
    Cantab.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭Cantab.


    AlanSparrowhawk wrote: »
    I have to admit my first thought was "where is the token hot female welfare officer".

    You mean the one who sends you down to the end of O'Connell Street when you've a bump in your tummy?


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    AlanSparrowhawk has never been pregnant.


  • #8
    AlanSparrowhawk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 485 ✭✭AlanSparrowhawk


    She was very attractive though. And i also question whether ANY young pregnant undergraduate's first point of call was their local SU rep. Cantab. you make it sound like they were working off commission for the abortion clinic in Liverpool but do you have any evidence to suggest anyone even read their propaganda?


  • #9
    Cantab.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭Cantab.


    AlanSparrowhawk wrote: »
    She was very attractive though. And i also question whether ANY young pregnant undergraduate's first point of call was their local SU rep. Cantab. you make it sound like they were working off commission for the abortion clinic in Liverpool but do you have any evidence to suggest anyone even read their propaganda?

    It shouldn't be there in the first place. No right-minded moral person should pay the student union levies.


  • #10
    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 760 ✭✭✭ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI


    Have you got a better solution?

    Unwanted pregnancy? Poke the ****er out with a clothes hanger.

    Seriously, problem solved, everyone's happy. I don't know how even the most hardcore religious people can have a problem with this.


  • #11
    Kwekubo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭Kwekubo


    Cantab. wrote: »
    It shouldn't be there in the first place. No right-minded moral person should pay the student union levies.
    The College Health Service doctors will put you in contact with the IFPA, Crisis Pregancy Agency et al. if they consider it an option in your case. Does that make the student registration fee immoral?


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    Señor Juárez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭Señor Juárez


    I dunno Cantab., I think an €8 abortion represents really good value for money.

    Far cheaper than 9 months worth of condoms.


  • #13
    Cantab.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭Cantab.


    Kwekubo wrote: »
    The College Health Service doctors will put you in contact with the IFPA, Crisis Pregancy Agency et al. if they consider it an option in your case. Does that make the student registration fee immoral?

    Where et al. includes agencies such as Cura. If the students' union insist on being aggressively pro-abortion that's their prerogative, just don't expect me to pay for it.


  • #14
    AlanSparrowhawk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 485 ✭✭AlanSparrowhawk


    I agree with Cantab. the SU shouldn't flaunt the rules of the land like this. I've actually changed my whole opinion on abortion though and I've decided it should be accessible to women in Ireland in Ireland.


  • #15
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Cantab is actually right then it comes to the SU. They should be as neutral as possible rather then pushing one side over the other. It merely alienates sections of the student body.
    Señor Juárez wrote: »
    I dunno Cantab., I think an €8 abortion represents really good value for money.

    Far cheaper than 9 months worth of condoms.

    I thought you liked them prepubescent?


  • #16
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Señor Juárez wrote: »
    I dunno Cantab., I think an €8 abortion represents really good value for money.

    Far cheaper than 9 months worth of condoms.

    €8?? Serious? You should post that over in the Bargain Alerts forum.


  • #17
    Kwekubo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭Kwekubo


    Boston wrote: »
    Cantab is actually right then it comes to the SU. They should be as neutral as possible rather then pushing one side over the other. It merely alienates sections of the student body.
    I see what you mean, and agree with it.


  • #18
    Pet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,579 ✭✭✭Pet


    I don't see the problem - they include information about abortion AND adoption. And they don't gloss over the details of abortion, either. I think it's neutral, I didn't infer any "pushing" of abortion.

    Cantab., do you simply object to the presence of information about abortion?


  • #19
    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 760 ✭✭✭ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI


    Kwekubo wrote: »
    I see what you mean, and agree with it.

    Nah, that's bull****. You think they should be Fox style 'fair and balanced' and have a massive banner ad proclaiming the evils of abortion and the eternal damnation that awaits anyone who should go through with it?

    If someone wants an abortion, there are certainly agencies that can help them with this decision. And if they're vehemently against the idea, these same agencies will probably be just as helpful.

    Cantab./Boston's idea of neutral seems to be not showing anything at all that suggests condoning abortion.


  • #20
    Señor Juárez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭Señor Juárez


    It tends to always be the people on the anti-choice side that will label ANY information, be it two sided or sets of separated information for both sides, as taking a stance.

    (insert anti-Catholic sentiment here)


  • #21
    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 760 ✭✭✭ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI


    Señor Juárez wrote: »
    It tends to always be the people on the anti-choice side that will label ANY information, be it two sided or sets of separated information for both sides, as taking a stance.

    (insert anti-Catholic sentiment here)

    Exactly...

    "Here is the side that presents abortion as acceptable (and also presents other solutions as acceptable), so there's one side, now, unless we have a point of view that presents abortion as unspeakable evil, you're not being balanced"


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    Kwekubo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭Kwekubo


    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »
    Nah, that's bull****. You think they should be Fox style 'fair and balanced' and have a massive banner ad proclaiming the evils of abortion and the eternal damnation that awaits anyone who should go through with it?

    If someone wants an abortion, there are certainly agencies that can help them with this decision. And if they're vehemently against the idea, these same agencies will probably be just as helpful.

    Cantab./Boston's idea of neutral seems to be not showing anything at all that suggests condoning abortion.
    I didn't mean to suggest that the SU is biased in this regard, I'm just assuming good faith on the part of Cantab./Boston. I would be very angry with the SU Welfare Officer if he did not provide full access to information on abortion to people who come looking for it; in this regard I am quite happy to have the SU represent me.


  • #23
    AlanSparrowhawk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 485 ✭✭AlanSparrowhawk


    Should the ents officer direct people that are looking for a good time to local reliable drug dealer?


  • #24
    Señor Juárez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭Señor Juárez


    Hasn't there always been a rumormill to the effect that most ents officers are also coke dealers? :P

    Thank god for the coke referendum so we can talk about such things!


  • #25
    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 760 ✭✭✭ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI


    AlanSparrowhawk wrote: »
    Should the ents officer direct people that are looking for a good time to local reliable drug dealer?

    Personally, I wouldn't see any problem with that at all.

    Kwekubo wrote: »
    I didn't mean to suggest that the SU is biased in this regard, I'm just assuming good faith on the part of Cantab./Boston

    Poor assumption based on prior experiences.


  • #26
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »
    Cantab./Boston's idea of neutral seems to be not showing anything at all that suggests condoning abortion.

    Thats not my idea.


  • #27
    Bartron Prime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭Bartron Prime


    Man did THAT go off-topic fast.

    The SU is not strictly 'neutral' in this area. Following a referendum many years ago, policy from which can obviously be overturned by another referendum, TCDSU is pro-choice.

    However, this takes the form of presenting information, it is not allowed or desired to encourage a student to take a particular course of action. It simply is of the kind where if while discussing options regarding an unplanned pregnancy, a student asks for abortion information, the Welfare Officer will provide it.

    It's a highly sensitive and emotionally fraught area so the advice is presented to those who want it, not 'forced' on people.

    Students' Unions, like all representative organisations with political functions, are not neutral. However, its policy is dictated by its members. If a referendum overturned the policy and required one that was strictly anti-abortion, TCDSU would shift accordingly as would its website and the actions of its Sabbatical Officers.

    I agree with the current policy but I am 'pro-choice'. I understand and respect the opinion of those who are anti-abortion but I believe it's perfectly valid that those who seek the information can be provided it. Those who have moral and ethical issues with abortion do not have to be given such information.

    Bear in mind, consultations with the SU Welfare Officer are driven by the needs of each individual student.

    Long story short: an SU can never be neutral as then it would be unable to campaign on any issue, take a stance on educational or support services or seek to achieve any measurable benefit for the students it represents. Its position is determined by its members through SU Council. The organisation has no inherent ideological bias; it is guided by those it represents and how they express themselves. Finally, TCDSU is 'pro-choice' but provides realistic information that highlights all aspects of that choice and only if that information is deemed to be appropriate in any given case.

    Oh, and the website is quite good. Not enough information in the Education and College sections but that just needs a bit of time is all.


  • #28
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Pro-information was the stance last I heard. What specific referendum adopted the pro-choice stance.


  • #29
    shay_562
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭shay_562


    AlanSparrowhawk wrote:
    Should the ents officer direct people that are looking for a good time to local reliable drug dealer?

    No, but he can certainly point them towards Amsterdam. There's nothing illegal about travelling to England to get an abortion. Your analogy doesn't hold up.


  • #30
    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 760 ✭✭✭ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI


    Bartron Prime wrote: »
    The SU is not strictly 'neutral' in this area. Following a referendum many years ago, policy from which can obviously be overturned by another referendum, TCDSU is pro-choice.

    It's a highly sensitive and emotionally fraught area so the advice is presented to those who want it, not 'forced' on people.[...] Those who have moral and ethical issues with abortion do not have to be given such information.

    Surely pro-choice logically is a neutral position. If you want information on abortion, you can get it. If you want information on other alternatives, such as keeping the baby, or having it put up for adoption, you can get that too. You won't be pushed in either direction.

    Compare to either of the possible non-neutral positions, always pushing towards getting an abortion, or always saying you should not get an abortion.

    Pro-choice on abortion is a neutral stance, how can people not understand this, they must be thick, thick, thick as planks.


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    AlanSparrowhawk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 485 ✭✭AlanSparrowhawk


    Boston wrote: »
    Has ever had an abortion?

    very childish


  • #32
    Kopf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 681 ✭✭✭Kopf


    ****, RUN, BOSTON'S GOT YOU NOW

    Seriously, Joe, what's your perverse fixation with personal details?


  • #33
    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 760 ✭✭✭ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI


    Boston wrote: »
    Has Holy ever had an abortion?

    Creepy and weird.


  • #34
    Bartron Prime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭Bartron Prime


    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »
    Pro-choice on abortion is a neutral stance...

    Not in a debate as loaded as this one. The act of acknowledging it as an option by providing information is regarded as anathema and morally reprehensible by some groups. The infamous SPUC case was based on the fact that information was provided. The three groups (TCDSU, UCDSU and USI) didn't 'encourage' or 'always recommend' abortions but they made the information accessible.

    The abortion debate is, in Ireland, often an all-or-nothing argument. You either provide no information on it and are dead against or you provide information and support its legalisation. Nobody's mind is ever changed by a debate as tensions tend to run high and opinions are very fixed.

    What the stance is, while not in my opinion neutral, is not zealous. It recognises it as a legitimate option but recognises other options too.


  • #35
    AlanSparrowhawk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 485 ✭✭AlanSparrowhawk


    I've changed my mind to largely agree with the consensus that pro-choice is the correct stance to have. Although I can understand why when a pro-life status quo was broken by an individual with an obvious pro-choice agenda and chip on his/her shoulder came into office it was looking like an individual was trying to misrepresent the student's stance.

    I actually think abortion is the worst event to experience as a college undergrad, worse than rape and losing a close family member. Although I say that having not experienced any of those tragedies. Therefore, if only one person out of the entire student body finds support in the SU's offices when experiencing this ultimatum I think the pro-choice stance has been worth its while.


  • #36
    Señor Juárez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭Señor Juárez


    I agree with ZVZ's post on pro choiceness. A welfare officer who expresses a loud opinion on the matter in any direction will, as AlanSparrowhawk says, be seen as betraying the conglomorate stance.

    disclaimer: I am pro choice, but would personally not opt for abortion to resolve an unwanted pregnancy.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    EGaffney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭EGaffney


    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »
    Surely pro-choice logically is a neutral position. If you want information on abortion, you can get it. If you want information on other alternatives, such as keeping the baby, or having it put up for adoption, you can get that too. You won't be pushed in either direction.

    Compare to either of the possible non-neutral positions, always pushing towards getting an abortion, or always saying you should not get an abortion.

    Pro-choice on abortion is a neutral stance, how can people not understand this, they must be thick, thick, thick as planks.

    No. One may as well say that advertising murder trips to a country that allows murder would be the "neutral stance" on that issue. In this country, we have laws against abortion, so promoting it is a political statement about one's desired stance in law. It only makes sense if you are taking the word "neutral" and bringing it to Mad Philosophical Thought Experiment Land, where forced abortions is the opposite to no abortions (not the advocacy that you describe, which is nothing to do with the usual meaning of "pro-choice", so it distorts the issue). If I am as thick as a plank, you are too clever by half.


  • #38
    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 760 ✭✭✭ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI


    Bartron Prime wrote: »
    Not in a The act of acknowledging it as an option by providing information is regarded as anathema and morally reprehensible by some groups.

    So what? Just because they're on the ridiculous extremes does not change the fact that logically speaking, pro-choice is a neutral stance.

    "you're interested in abortion? cool, here's a brochure"
    "you're interested in keeping it? cool, here's a brochure"
    Bartron Prime wrote: »
    What the stance is, while not in my opinion neutral, is not zealous. It recognises it as a legitimate option but recognises other options too.

    I think that makes it neutral.

    Really, if I were arguing in say Iran, that "people should be free to have their own religion, or if they so chose, be free to have no religion, I don't care either way what people do", would you argue that that is not neutral?

    Would the fact that there would be some angry ayatollahs out to have my head chopped off change the fact that my point of view is essentially neutral? Does their extremism change what my point of view is?


  • #39
    Señor Juárez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭Señor Juárez


    The difference here is, nobody is pro murder.

    Are you a PD, by any chance? Your debate methodology reeks of PD.


  • #40
    EGaffney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭EGaffney


    Señor Juárez wrote: »
    The difference here is, nobody is pro murder.

    Are you a PD, by any chance? Your debate methodology reeks of PD.

    The state of Ireland classifies abortion as murder. I am sure plenty of people are pro-abortion.

    Are you being ad hominem, by any chance? Your debate methodology reeks of being ad hominem.


  • #41
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    No it doesn't. Abortions aren't even illegal here, the criteria for getting one is simply highly selective.


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    Kopf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 681 ✭✭✭Kopf


    EGaffney wrote: »
    Mad Philosophical Thought Experiment Land

    Having read that in your voice, I'm desperately looking for an electric drill to off myself with


  • #43
    Pet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,579 ✭✭✭Pet


    EGaffney wrote: »
    No. One may as well say that advertising murder trips to a country that allows murder would be the "neutral stance" on that issue. In this country, we have laws against abortion, so promoting it is a political statement about one's desired stance in law. It only makes sense if you are taking the word "neutral" and bringing it to Mad Philosophical Thought Experiment Land, where forced abortions is the opposite to no abortions (not the advocacy that you describe, which is nothing to do with the usual meaning of "pro-choice", so it distorts the issue). If I am as thick as a plank, you are too clever by half.
    Ding ding ding ding ding! I was wondering how long it would take before someone mentioned the word "murder". Thanks, Mr Gaffney, whoever you are.

    Do you realise, though, that people can and will travel to the UK for abortions? Or just have them at home, after a trip to their local pharmacy [c.f. http://www.womenonweb.org/]. Fair enough, you have your views on the subject, but objecting to the availability of information is rather Orwellian, don't you think?


  • #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,720 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thread split from TCDSU website thread.

    EVERYONE - enough with the childish bitching at each other.

    This is an emotive topic for all sides in the argument so keep that in mind before posting. Any personal abuse will result in a ban.


  • #45
    Señor Juárez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭Señor Juárez


    Pet, I must say, a website where you can order abortion pills does unnerve me a little.

    Then again, it is unfortunate that it comes down to needing this. Their vague reassurances of an online consultation with a real doctor probably mean it's better than a nameless blind ordering system.


    I have to wonder though, is it legal to import what probably counts as prescription medication into Ireland?


  • #46
    ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 760 ✭✭✭ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI


    Señor Juárez wrote: »
    Pet, I must say, a website where you can order abortion pills does unnerve me a little.

    Why?


  • #47
    Halla Basin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 316 ✭✭Halla Basin


    Alls I'm sayin' is, the pro-life crowd are IDIOTS who don't even know what life is.


  • #48
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Halla Basin wrote: »
    Alls I'm sayin' is, the pro-life crowd are IDIOTS who don't even know what life is.

    Wow nice argumentitive skills you got there well done.


  • #49
    Halla Basin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 316 ✭✭Halla Basin


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Wow nice argumentitive skills you got there well done.

    mahahaha ad hominem

    Nice arguing skills there, ma boy.


  • #50
    AlanSparrowhawk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 485 ✭✭AlanSparrowhawk


    Defining what is 'alive' what isn't and what is a life aren't easy things. Halla Basin is your opinion as simple that all foetuses are not life?


  • #51
    Halla Basin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 316 ✭✭Halla Basin


    AlanSparrowhawk wrote: »
    Defining what is 'alive' what isn't and what is a life aren't easy things. Halla Basin is your opinion as simple that all foetuses are not life?

    A newborn baby has less brain activity than any fully grown primate or dolphin. But we don't need to let it get that far. I'd hazard there isn't a woman alive in the developed world who hasn't noticed they're pregnant after three months (and then decided if they want to keep it or not). If I had to pander to the pro-life side, I still can't see why they would object to abortion pre-11 weeks, before the embyro's heart has started beating. That's mostly an arbitrary line for the sake of a line, though.

    EDIT: And of course, a foetus that presents a potential risk to the mother's life should be aborted immediately, no matter how far along it is.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement