Campaign for reason from the RSA

ninty9er

Basically this is off the back of the letter I posted elsewehere lastnight. There seems to be no reasoning with the RSA at the moment and the sooner it cops on that young male drivers are only a part of the driving population and that all campaigns should be aimed at all drivers.

I have attached it with one significant change in part C: Changing "any" to "many" in the brackets.

Again. Feel free to edit. It'll cost you between 8-10 envelopes and stamps, depending on what part of the coutry you live in. Less if you live in Meath West, Dún Laoghaire or Dublin North West.

It is now in Word 2003 format as I have managed to get through the day without collapsing of the heat.

Gary ITR

I'll stick this for a few days, this campaign can be discussed here but if I see any off topic posts or arguing or any going against the forum charter we will be banning people without warning. This is the only warning that will be posted on thread.

Berty

Fantastic letter and extremely well worded.

I suggest that from reading it there is not enough emphasis placed on the premise that Learner Drivers can be ANY AGE.

I know it was mentioned but I think it deserves more credence.

I cannot comment too much as I speak from the 25+ bracket which means Im obviously a safe driver. :rolleyes:

Junior #8

Excellent letter, there is an excellent thread about the campaign
maybe we have something good coming along here.
The question is, is it safe for me to drive and get one of these printed off if my girlfriend is in the car?

Seth Brundle

looks good - some possible modifications?

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D) These opinions make no accommodation for the fact that there are men and women in this country who were given driving licences simply because they requested them, rather than having taken a practical (or theory) test. There are fully licenced drivers on our roads that have no inkling about roundabout usage, a seriously dangerous situation.

to

D) These opinions make no accommodation for the fact that there are men and women in this country who were given driving licences simply because they requested them, rather than having taken a practical (or theory) test (most notably your own chairman). There are fully licenced drivers on our roads that have no inkling about roundabout usage, a seriously dangerous situation.

change

E) If road safety is paramount, all drivers with full licences should be equal under law, and if that law should be changed to introduce restrictions, they should apply to all drivers be they 20 or 40!

to

E) If road safety is paramount, all drivers with full licences should be equal under law, and if that law should be changed to introduce restrictions, they should apply to all drivers be they 20 or 60; male or female!

change

F) The Taoiseach recently saw fit to appoint, for the first time, a Minister with responsibility for Road Safety, his duty as a holder of public office is to the public interest, following recent comments, I’m not sure the same can be said for Mr. Byrne.

to

F) The Taoiseach recently saw fit to appoint, for the first time, a Minister with responsibility for Road Safety, his duty as a holder of public office is to the public interest. Following recent comments, I’m not sure the same can be said for Mr. Byrne.

change

I’ll leave you with a thought. Has it occurred to the RSA that young males are more likely to die driving a car because they rack up more driving hours than anyone else on the road? Statistical significance has been completely ignored by the RSA, and I would encourage it to radically rethink its policy if it wishes to reach ALL drivers. There is also a growing body of thought that suggests single vehicle accidents (many of which young male deaths fall under) may be suicide.

to

I’ll leave you with a final thought. Has it occurred to the RSA that young males are more likely to die driving a car because they rack up more driving hours than anyone else on the road (any source?)? Statistical significance has been completely ignored by the RSA, and I would encourage it to radically rethink its policy if it wishes to reach ALL drivers. There is also a growing body of thought that suggests single vehicle accidents (many of which young male deaths fall under) may be suicide. Is the RSA deliberately ignoring this?

Stainless_Steel

Thanks very much for your efforts. I will also send similar letters.

ninty9er

Some good changes there kbannon. I'll leave it to the RSA to disporve the point rather than prove it myself on more hours. I'm not sure it would be completely true, but given the socialising habits of the age group, I would imagine at the times this happens they would be the main road user group along with the Haulage industry.

AugustusMaximus

Thanks for the effort. I'll try to do something on the weekend. I'll probably give it a bit of an edit with more focus on the recent campaigns and what I think the RSA is completely ignoring in regards to road safety.

The irony of Gay Byrne driving on our roads for 40+ years without ever having sat a driving test won't be ignored either.

Seth Brundle

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

The irony of Gay Byrne driving on our roads for 40+ years without ever having sat a driving test won't be ignored either.

I'm fairly sure that he has sat one (no idea if he passed!).
After he was made chairman of the RSA, he admitted having been given a free licence years ago and signed up to take the test.

GTE

Fantastic letter, Ill do some posting today
Thanks for the effort you have put in also!

Sizzler

Don't forget when it is sent it should be copied to a few newspapers as well imho.

Theres a stack of facts that should be stated about Uncle Gaybo and his lack of credibility as chairman of the RSA.

AugustusMaximus

kbannon wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that he has sat one (no idea if he passed!).
After he was made chairman of the RSA, he admitted having been given a free licence years ago and signed up to take the test.

He might have taken the test a few years ago but the guy like other people his age were driving around on a full licence without taking a driving test for years.

While the ban on learner drivers never affected me, I found that initiative very hypocritical from Gay Byrne and anyone else at the RSA who might have got a driving licence without taking the driving test.

fifth

I've been working on this exact campaign for a while now but I think I'll leave it to boards now instead!

biko

Good letter.

Just as said above:

Has it occurred to the RSA that young males are more likely to die driving a car because they rack up more driving hours than anyone else on the road? Statistical significance has been completely ignored by the RSA

You need stats to back this up, particularly as you say it is of statistic significance.

There is also a growing body of thought that suggests single vehicle accidents (many of which young male deaths fall under) may be suicide.

Again, stats or proper reference needed. You can't say things like "people think this" or "suggests". Hard facts only if you take their stats on.

solo1484

ninty9er wrote: »

Basically this is off the back of the letter I posted elsewehere lastnight. There seems to be no reasoning with the RSA at the moment and the sooner it cops on that young male drivers are only a part of the driving population and that all campaigns should be aimed at all drivers.

I have attached it with one significant change in part C: Changing "any" to "many" in the brackets.

Again. Feel free to edit. It'll cost you between 8-10 envelopes and stamps, depending on what part of the coutry you live in. Less if you live in Meath West, Dún Laoghaire or Dublin North West.

It is now in Word 2003 format as I have managed to get through the day without collapsing of the heat.

Excellent stuff, very well written.

ninty9er

Magnus wrote: »

You need stats to back this up, particularly as you say it is of statistic significance.

Again, stats or proper reference needed. You can't say things like "people think this" or "suggests". Hard facts only if you take their stats on.

If it's good enough for Gay Byrne, it's good enough for someone unqualified like me whose job it definitely isn't to look into this stuff.

Like I already said, it should be up to the RSA which is professionally charged with road safety to look at the root cause of each accident. There has been very little proof to show that wrecklessness is the cause of these deaths even though young males are the main victims of road deaths.

Causation and correlation etc..etc...

mumblin deaf ro

My advice would be to take out the personal criticisms as they will be disregarded and will in fact make your otherwise cogent arguments seem less convincing. I'd suggest:

I write on the above topic following Mr. Byrne’s recent comments regarding engine size, curfews and other matters in relation to young male drivers. It have a few factual points to make.
A) Engine size bears very little relevance to the performance of many cars available in Ireland today. There are Volkswagen Group 1.4 litre engines available in the VW Golf, Passat, Audi A3 and various Seat models that are capable of producing 160bhp and attaining a speed of 100km/h in 8 seconds and continuing to 220km/h whereas there are 2 litre engines available in such vehicles as the Ford Focus which will take 11.5 seconds to get to 100km/h and max out at a much lower 180km/h. These figures are according to manufacturer specifications in both cases.
If the RSA wants to make strides in road safety, it needs to target behaviours rather than genders and age groups in its campaigns. The “He drives, she dies” campaign makes no reference to any other demographic as drivers than young males.
D) These opinions make no accommodation for the fact that there are men and women in this country who were given driving licences simply because they requested them, rather than having taken a practical (or theory) test. There are fully licenced drivers on our roads that have no inkling about roundabout usage, a seriously dangerous situation.
E) If road safety is paramount, all drivers with full licences should be equal under law, and if that law should be changed to introduce restrictions, they should apply to all drivers.
I) The RSA (or department of Road Safety should it subsume the RSA at some date) would do well to adopt a model similar to the UK where vehicles are classed by insurance group based on power to weight and not by an irrelevant arbiter such as engine size.

I’ll leave you with a thought. Has it occurred to the RSA that young males are more likely to die driving a car because they rack up more driving hours than anyone else on the road? Statistical significance has been completely ignored by the RSA, and I would encourage it to radically rethink its policy if it wishes to reach ALL drivers. There is also a growing body of thought that suggests single vehicle accidents (many of which young male deaths fall under) may be suicide.

(Q: any evidence for this?)

ninty9er

A quick google will show it's becoming an area of research down under. Things don't become areas of research for no reason.

AugustusMaximus

ninty9er wrote: »

A quick google will show it's becoming an area of research down under. Things don't become areas of research for no reason.

Its almost guaranteed that a large minority of deaths on the road are due to suicide. A lot of these single car accidents IMO are suicide. Of course, no one wants to tell it as it is for the family's sake and for the chance that a declaration of suicide would void life insurance policies etc.

I know a person who had a crash with a woman who drove head on into him on purpose.

ChristyCent

Dont forget to mention this!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/i-drank-and-drove-home-from-late-late-says-gay-1801757.html

AugustusMaximus

ChristyCent wrote: »

Dont forget to mention this!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/i-drank-and-drove-home-from-late-late-says-gay-1801757.html

The man has no business at all acting in the role he has with the RSA.

Beta Ray Bill

ninty9er wrote: »

Basically this is off the back of the letter I posted elsewehere lastnight. There seems to be no reasoning with the RSA at the moment and the sooner it cops on that young male drivers are only a part of the driving population and that all campaigns should be aimed at all drivers.

I have attached it with one significant change in part C: Changing "any" to "many" in the brackets.

Again. Feel free to edit. It'll cost you between 8-10 envelopes and stamps, depending on what part of the coutry you live in. Less if you live in Meath West, Dún Laoghaire or Dublin North West.

It is now in Word 2003 format as I have managed to get through the day without collapsing of the heat.

I also sent a letter to the RSA local news papers and the minister for transport about the RSA

my letter is not as good as yours,
I got a reply from him though, and your right, it seems that he just will not listen

He's a joke of a person and I wouldn't even entertain the notion writing to him again. My next letter along with this one will be to ever TD and counciller in the country, about how crap this guy is and how much he needs to be fired.

RSA is a waste of taxpayers money in my opinion.

EDIT: I used some quotes from people on this forum in my letter.

DrumSteve

can gay byrne not be the subject of retrospective legal action for admitting to drink driving (and saying thank god he never got caught)?

Saab Ed

DrumSteve wrote: »

can gay byrne not be the subject of retrospective legal action for admitting to drink driving (and saying thank god he never got caught)?

Good point. You'd never get away with saying

" Years ago we used to rape women all the time. It wasnt really rape though, it was just that they didnt want to..you know.... Anyway sure all the lads were at it at the time. Sure you'd drag her round the back of the dance hall and give her one if she wanted to or not. The lads would give you a right hard time if you didnt get the leg over. "

Now imagine the head of the rape crisis centre coming out with that today !!!! The whole things a farce

Seth Brundle

To take a case, there would need to be proof!

enda1

(I'm being Devil's advocate here by the way...)

They are not trying to target all drivers. They feel that by targeting one group, the group they feel is most dangerous and vulnerable they will have the biggest impact on road deaths.

They feel that the number of fatal crashes involving young males is highly disproportionate and thus needs to be tackled strongest.

It is widely known and believed that target advertising is very effective, if the ad is general people are less likely to pay attention, take it on board.

The ads attack the male's ego and boost the female's. The female is becoming more empowered in modern society and now has the chance to stand up and be listened to. The ad gives the push to women/girls to say NO!
And hits guys where it hurts.

They feel that even though the advertising is deliberately and obviously discriminatory, if it reduces road deaths then it is acceptable!

(Again I repeat, devil's advocate)

Eoin

Magnus wrote: »

Good letter.

Has it occurred to the RSA that young males are more likely to die driving a car because they rack up more driving hours than anyone else on the road? Statistical significance has been completely ignored by the RSA

Just as said above:

You need stats to back this up, particularly as you say it is of statistic significance.

Again, stats or proper reference needed. You can't say things like "people think this" or "suggests". Hard facts only if you take their stats on.

These stats were posted here a few weeks ago I believe, but I can't remember what thread it was. I have a feeling they won't prove the point people are hoping for, if I remember it correctly. I'll see if I can dig out the thread.

enda1

Solitaire wrote: »

There are much better places to say that than here Enda1... whole threads where we could all laugh at you for completely missing the whole point. Just like the RSA misses the point of its own existance.

They're randomly targetting a minority based on hearsay, personal misgivings and corrupted statistics. And then trying to force other sections of society to ostracise them for no good reason other than "we said so". In other circumstances this victimisation could easily be construed as a major hate-crime and result in stiff sentencing let alone fines!

But posting it here simply makes it look like you're trying to 'jack the thread. Hijacking an important sticky no less. So I suggest you drop this line of enquiry because this is the last I'll say about it here on this particular thread. If we don't then the next "response" we get could be a mod swinging a Banhammer at our scalps :eek:

Jesus chill mate!

I tried twice to clearly say this is not my opinion but (what I believe to be) theirs.

Secondly, I believe if one wants to send letters to people looking for a change in stance, they should have an idea of what the stance is. The letter won't be listened to if it is focusing on a topic they have already considered so the letter writers should be aware of exactly where they want to focus on.

Earlier in this thread people have been talking about incorrect use of roundabouts as an argument against the RSA as well as their ad's not reaching a wide target.

These people should be aware that the purpose of this campaign is to lower the number of deaths on the roads (being in the wrong lane in a roundabout will not result in a death to a driver, but maybe will to a motorcyclist or cyclist) and the ads are deliberately trying to focus on one segment of the population not all!

I'm aware this is a heated argument but threats, accusations and being personal in the letters will just end up in your argument not being listened to.

Solitaire

Sorry, I was out of line. Didn't actually mean it personally at all, came out horribly wrong and was dragged away from the comp before I had a chance to take it down

mobies

"given rural drivers among my peers are much less likely to have professional lessons than urban dwellers."
This line is as much a stereotype as the "young male drivers" stereotype.

"Rural drivers are killers, take the off our streets."

"dem Towneys cant drive proper round these parts."

All learners are as all as bad as each other.

Being urban has nothing do do with driving ability.
You could say rural people probably are more likely to be experienced out of necessity.

Junior #8

enda1 wrote: »

They feel that even though the advertising is deliberately and obviously discriminatory, if it reduces road deaths then it is acceptable!

(Again I repeat, devil's advocate)

You sound like someone trying to justify a corporation.
"If we purge Central America, we can deliver to our shareholders"

enda1

Junior #8 wrote: »

You sound like someone trying to justify a corporation.
"If we purge Central America, we can deliver to our shareholders"

I am not trying to justify them.
They are not a corporation.
We are not in Central America.
There are no shareholders.

I don't understand the link between your analogy and road deaths and the RSA.

And for the last time I AM TRYING TO CLARIFY (WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE) THEIR POSITION!!

First thing one should do when writing such a letter is to know one's audience. I'm just trying to shed some light on that issue.

Junior #8

Ha read the letter today frmo the Advertising people.....they said the could not foolow up the case, but they will pass the message
*sigh*

zynaps

enda1 wrote: »

They are not trying to target all drivers. They feel that by targeting one group, the group they feel is most dangerous and vulnerable they will have the biggest impact on road deaths.

It certainly makes sense to reach out to this "statistically significant" group*. However, I don't see any justification or even measured consideration of the extent, effectiveness and fairness of the proposed restrictions.

For example, they can't just say "young male drivers are statistically more likely to cause fatal accidents, therefore we propose that all young male drivers be killed".

The fact is that these proposed restrictions grossly overstep the RSA's mandate and are an extremely unfair form of discrimination. Let's stick to "innocent until proven guilty". Insurance companies get away with sexual and age (and racial?) discrimination, and that's already too much.
We shouldn't let things get any worse.



* i.e. not in the disturbing, alienating and accusatory way recent media campaigns do. Think harder, RSA!

BlondieCait

Reason?

When did reason have any influence in a propaganda campaign???

This is all part of a bigger scheme.

TwoLegged

zynaps wrote: »

It certainly makes sense to reach out to this "statistically significant" group*. However, I don't see any justification or even measured consideration of the extent, effectiveness and fairness of the proposed restrictions.

In Ireland, as in other countries, young male drivers are by far the most accident-prone group. In the UK, young males are also the only age group in which road accidents are the single biggest cause of accidental death (I don't know the Irish figures, but I'd be surprised if they are significantly different).

So there is a particular problem with young male drivers, and when trying to reduce accident rates it makes sense to focus on the group which has the most accidents.

I haven't looked at the measures proposed to see what I think of them, but I do know one thing: any campaign against the specific measures will be doomed unless it accepts clearly that young male drivers have far more accidents than any other group. Anyone who doesn't accept that is ignoring plenty of statistics, so anything else they have to say can be easily dismissed.

zynaps

TwoLegged wrote: »

In Ireland, as in other countries, young male drivers are by far the most accident-prone group. In the UK, young males are also the only age group in which road accidents are the single biggest cause of accidental death (I don't know the Irish figures, but I'd be surprised if they are significantly different).

So there is a particular problem with young male drivers, and when trying to reduce accident rates it makes sense to focus on the group which has the most accidents.

Yes, that is exactly what I said :

zynaps wrote:

It certainly makes sense to reach out to this "statistically significant" group*.

However, that does not mean that any approach can be used to deal with the problem. You can't just say "young men have the most accidents, so let's put every young man in jail until they're at least 35", can you?

So, like I said, the scope and fairness of any new measures must be evaluated properly and justified before ham-fisted restrictions are lumped on every young male driver.

Consider the backlash against racial profiling by the US police forces, where young black males were (and are) often harrassed by the police, without them having committed any crime, simply because young black males in those areas were statistically more likely to commit crimes. This practice was widely denounced and strong anti-discrimination measures have come into place in various organisations.

If discriminating against people due to their skin colour is wrong, surely doing so on the basis of age and sex is just as wrong. Where do we draw the line? Why accept one and not the other? Putting extra restrictions on young males would be an extremely negative, alienating and unjust practice, which is why I argued for more positive approaches. Can you imagine a curfew on young black males in crime-prone US cities?

If a scheme like this is instituted, I will protest strongly and encourage others to do so. Facing higher insurance prices due to age and sex discrimination is bad enough, but this would be a serious suppression of equality rights IMO.

TwoLegged

Zynaps, cries of "discrimination" and absurd comparisons with putting young men in jail just make you sound hysterical. I'm not saying that you are hysterical, just that your last post reads that way ... and I'm not trying to do you down, just to point out that if you want your concerns to be listened to by the powers-that-be, you'll do better to keep your feet on the ground. :cool:

Some of the RSA's suggestions do seem problematic, such as the restriction on engine-size. If that sort of limit is being considered, it'd be much better to look at a limit on power/weight ratio. However, that would still have limited effect, because even the cheapest little cars on the road can do 90mph.

The problem is that it's really easy to knock any suggestions for not solving the whole problem, without coming up with anything which actually addresses the central fact -- that far too many young men are killing and injuring themselves and others on the roads.

Of course, the simplest solution would simply be to ban all young men from driving at all. That would take the highest-risk group of drivers off the road. I doubt that would be popular, but it would do the job.

The RSA hasn't adopted such a draconian suggestion, but if young male drivers don't want that sort of plan to get onto the agenda, they need to start trying to help develop proposals that would work rather than simply saying "not fair".

celica1994

hey, im being honest, i totally agree, i was absoloutly discusted when i first learned about the rsa's half assed national campain for wasting much needed money during the resession..

its not bad enough that young drivers are steyrotyped, loaded with extortinate premiums for insurance, restricted to cars so small they got to kneel down just to get inside the thing due to the fact they either can afford the insurance for a saloon car or are just point blank refused insurance due to sumthing the government selectivly aknolege as "AGEISM".. young drivers are expected to fork out thousands of euros just to enjoy sumthing as basic as a mode of transportation which many people can easily obtain and afford, Im 24 myself and after 4 years claim free driving, my insurance which i am in no way going to describe as "affordable" is still very pricy for what it is. i really feel sorry for any 18 year old male scraping every last ounce of his spare cash together just to get his foot in the door. my first car insurance a few years back on a lowsey 1.3ltr mazda 323 was an astonishing 5.5k, the guy in the insurance company actually told me that car insurance pretty much dosent get any more expensive...

The rsa has deemed young drivers mass murderers, well thats very funny...

elderly people to me seem very dangerous on the road, no one can honestly dispute the fact that an 80 year old woman driving through a residental estate and a young kid runs out from behind a car that that woman has the physical ability to react quickly.

it was always my belife that middle age drivers were the biggest offenders of drink driving? sure we heard gay byrne admiting that it was such the norm back in the day so it was perfectly this hypocrite to blame younger driver for road deaths, how dare we be young!

the rsa now have theyre "he drives she dies" campaign... oh how we all have forgot... it seems that having a penis suddenly means that we have this unquenching desire to drive really dangerously once a woman enters the car, so where does the gender bashing end? should we replace the term "drivers error" with just "male errorcause it just seems now that male drivers are only capible of causing major road accidents, funny how youtube is full of videos of women causing comedic accidents.

id like to just say, im not bashing at groups of people that i have mentioned above, im merly using them as examples, i belive everyone reguardless of age is capible of causing an accident and every young driver shouldnt be penalised just because they can do it! gay byrne is a pi** poor excuse for a human being, let me finish in quoting this hypocrite who has the nerve to tell people hes never met that theyre natural born killers - let me cut and paste my fav parts of this interview


By Caitrina Cody
Thursday July 02 2009

quote -

I remember the days when I drove home from the 'Late Late Show' late at night -- the great thing in those days was to have a drink or two, or three, in the green room with the guests to thank them for coming and all that," he said.

Undoubtedly I was over the limit, night after night, until at some stage I was told by the controller of programmes that I wasn't to drive myself home from the show anymore, drunk or sober," recalled Mr Byrne.

Certainly 10 years ago, perhaps even five years ago, if you told your pals that you had had 17 large brandies last night and drove yourself home -- just about making it through the gate -- you probably would have been clapped on the back for it."

"Many of us thought nothing about drinking and driving back in the day

"Thank God I got away with it -- thank God that nothing ever happened to anyone," he said

Mr Rsa is so right:)

zynaps

TwoLegged wrote: »

Zynaps, cries of "discrimination" and absurd comparisons with putting young men in jail just make you sound hysterical. I'm not saying that you are hysterical, just that your last post reads that way ... and I'm not trying to do you down, just to point out that if you want your concerns to be listened to by the powers-that-be, you'll do better to keep your feet on the ground. :cool:

What's with the quotes around "discrimination"? It is discrimination. And what's "absurd" about the comparisons with racial profiling? Can you explain how this scheme differs from racial discrimination in any way? The fact is, both are extremely unfair practices, but this one is somehow tolerated more widely.
Imagine the statistics were the other way around and the RSA proposed that young women drivers be banned from driving at night or from carrying passengers. The reaction would be immediate and extremely negative.

If you think getting pissed off at an unjust and unfair proposal is hysterical then that's fine, you can just sit down and let anything happen and just accept it.
Personally, I'm seeing a very offensive proposal which should not even be suggested, and it bugs the hell out of me. So I'm prepared to open my mouth at the risk of sounding "hysterical" to some. :rolleyes:

TwoLegged wrote: »

The problem is that it's really easy to knock any suggestions for not solving the whole problem, without coming up with anything which actually addresses the central fact -- that far too many young men are killing and injuring themselves and others on the roads.

Of course, the simplest solution would simply be to ban all young men from driving at all. That would take the highest-risk group of drivers off the road. I doubt that would be popular, but it would do the job.

The RSA hasn't adopted such a draconian suggestion, but if young male drivers don't want that sort of plan to get onto the agenda, they need to start trying to help develop proposals that would work rather than simply saying "not fair".

I suggested a fairly obvious and positive move to address the problem here on the related thread.