Should Race Directors be pimping their events on these forums?

donothoponpop

Basically, I'm tired of reading threads about races which cost the earth to enter, make some vague "a portion goes to charity" statement, and end up disappointing the athletes they suppose to target. I've no problem whatsoever with athletes trying to start debate/interest in a race/event they're competing in, but there's been a few threads started, or taken over, by race directors of various events, which are just explicit advertisements for their races. For example:

The Lakes 10k where the RD starts the thread, and later comes back to remind about the last few places.

Eireman Triathlon, not started by the RD, but he very much takes an active part in promoting his event, unfortunately judging by the aftermath, what he promised fell short of what he delivered.

There's plenty of other examples, and I stress that I'm not just picking on the two above, but the first has been accused of spamming (which he denies, and I fully understand his race is very commendably 100% for charity rather than profit, I'm only using him as a recent example of advertising); the second seems to be an overextension of enthusiasm and I'm not sure to what extent a profit motive. Falling somewhere in between, the Gaelforce thread (albeit which I don't think the organizers had a single thing to do with) has an awful lot of disappointed athletes who feel fleeced by the organizers.

Now I understand the need for promotion of events, and I'm certainly guilty of pimping plenty of races up mountains, but recently I've been left with a certain unease when races are promoted by organizers in these forums- it seems as though the expectation often doesn't live up to the hype, and quite too many of these races are profit-driven. I'd be interested too in hearing from RD's: perhaps there's a dearth of ways to promote a race, and Boards provides a captive audience?

copacetic

personally I think it is good to have those involved in organising the races posting on the threads. It's generally useful for the people on the forums. It would be great for example if the adidas series organisers were on here giving feedback also, at the very least they have made changes based on the feedback from boardsies on the threads here, so they are lurking anyway. As long a there is only one thread per event I don't see an issue. The mods will delete threads and ban people in a heartbeat if they feel someone is overdoing the pimping. As can be seen from the Eireman threads it's a double edged sword, they are given leeway but they better run a damn good race or they will be torn to shreds otherwise.

aburke

As with everything, there is a fine line between pimping a race [I prefer that term :-) ] and engaging with the runners here on boards.ie.

With the Connemarathon hat on [I work for the company which does most of the organising], I try to inform and answer questions [as much as I can].

The same applies to a rake of races I'm involved with in Athenry AC.

Personally, I feel there is a big difference between a regular, or even semi-regular contributor promoting their race, than someone who comes on here just for their event and nowt else [but I would say that too wouldn't I :-) ]

Alan

figs

I'm sure the posts are of interest to some people who otherwise may not be aware of a race in their local area, etc...

Having countless numbers appearing would be irritating, and if the number becomes overbearing, I assume the mods will Sticky them.

My cunning solution... if the thread title (or Race) is not of interest, I simply don't read them.

For those that I have an interest in, I generally find the input from RD's or event organisers relevent and informative.

--amadeus--

It's a difficult one, to be honest.

I hadn't looked at the Lakes 10k thread before this but, IMO, that would be ok. He announced teh race, responded to feedback and reminded when it was closing/ It is also (from what I can see) a club run race in aid of charity rather than a "for profit" race.

Eirman is a bit trickier. Eoin is a pro race organiser and at first we had a lot of threads. The Mods had a quiet word among ourselves and with him and we agreed that we would let him communicate via here as long as it was confined to one thread.

As DP says it looks like it may have backfired because the race has been slaughtered (and maybe a little unfairly in places). I hope Eoin comes back and gives his side but it does show Race Directors that this place is something of a double edged sword.

To my mind we have a few options.

- Allow no-one to promote races. Sounds good on the surface but not practical. What's the difference between discussing and promoting? Would members be banned from mentioning races? I really can't see it working

- Only members can promote races. By promote I mean "Race X on at location Y" type posts. If we ban RD from doing this the risk is of Shills (race directors pretending not to be race directors in order to promote) Again I can't see it as practical

- Anyone can promote but it's managed Pretty much the status quo. Anyone can start a race thread but if we get multiple threads or bumps we (the Mods) will intervene and lock, merge, warn or ban as needed. You guys can help by reporting any posts that you think cross the line (as a few of you already do, thanks!). But - as has been said - having race organisers on here is useful, it gives us a direct line. (It's also one of the reasons we have to be so strict on numbers transfers)

But as always it's up to you guys. Let us know what you think and we'll do it!

locteau

I do organise a few races, but never promote them, jsut answer some queries.

The main reasons for me to do so are simple:

- Other people can give wrong information, so I can make sure it is accurate
- It also bring up some small evenst which are well organised but not very well known and deserve to be cited.
- Some athletes have unfair comments about charity/business and really do try to un-promote some events.
- Other race directors have political reasons to disminish other events but reply as a "normal user"

But it is a good point. I think teh question is more "how genuine some of the threads are" from time to time.

But it is like some comments saying that "the course was extremly dangerous" simply because the person came back with dirty shoes and had to run on wet grass.....

RoyMcC

As there would appear to be race threads for most events (other than the smaller, local ones) I don't think it really matters who starts it. And it is always good to see the organisers engaging with the competitors, especially if they are taking on board constructive criticism and are prepared to do something about it.

Certainly there is no hiding place from criticism in these modern times for events that fall down in their organisation. Maybe the likes of this board could formalise an evaluation of events, and contribute to raising standards, by having some sort of ratings system - say marks out of 10 for

• Organisation
• Scenery
• Value for money
• PB potential
• etc

Runner's World UK has been running such a feedback table for years.

If I was a RD at the bottom of such a table then you bet I'd be doing something about it, especially if I had a profit motive.

osnola ibax

Just as a boards user, I find it useful that race directors post about races here.

First I heard about the lakes 10k was on here from the organizer. I look here 3 or 4 times a day and I like to know what's going on in the road racing world.

As for profit making ventures, if people are willing to participate then fair play to the organizers, it's simple market economics. What does bug me though is paying huge money to enter a profit making race, being promised the earth incl a t shirt and can see how the organizer scrimped at every opportunity e.g. Buying the cheapest cotton tshirts available and printing the sponsors on, value €1.

I know the adidas race series has massive sponsors but what outstanding value it is and as posted above, the organizers took and used feedback from this forum.

rigal

--amadeus-- wrote: »

- Anyone can promote but it's managed ...

I'm with this option. I think it's great to have race info on the forum so long as it doesn't go overboard in terms of the hard sell. I have no issue with races organised for profit. If I think it's too expensive I just won't enter..

DeVore

the poker guys have the same problem... they need to know about the events but they dont like the "pimpage".

They've solved it very elegantly (I would say that, I was the architect of the idea ) by requiring that the organisers MUST answer any civil and reasonable question put to them. This means they have to give back to the community when they "use" its power to publicise.
Failure to do so leads to refusal to retraction of the right to promote ANY events...

They also put down a list of 26 commonly asked questions which MUST be answered in the opening post or the thread is deleted forthwith.

Eventually they got a subforum specifically for the topics (which is also an option for you guys) and its steamed along merrily since then.

I dislike pimpage, I REALLY dislike hit-and-run merchants, but I also understand that you guys need to know about races...


So, thats a possible framework for you guys to follow...

DeV.

Poncherello

They absolutely should be allowed to pimp/promote whatever any race they like. If the race is something that might interest people it will creat discussion etc.
Thats what these forums are for and one of main reasons I come on here.

--amadeus--

See, having him come in is like having the headmaster walk in at school. "Oh oh, what have I done...!"

Excellent suggestion though - so two questions to you all:

- Would a race specific forum be worthwhile?
- What questions would we insist a race director answer in thier 1st post?

plodder

DeVore wrote: »

the poker guys have the same problem... they need to know about the events but they dont like the "pimpage".

They've solved it very elegantly (I would say that, I was the architect of the idea ) by requiring that the organisers MUST answer any civil and reasonable question put to them. This means they have to give back to the community when they "use" its power to publicise.
Failure to do so leads to refusal to retraction of the right to promote ANY events...

They also put down a list of 26 commonly asked questions which MUST be answered in the opening post or the thread is deleted forthwith.

Eventually they got a subforum specifically for the topics (which is also an option for you guys) and its steamed along merrily since then.

I dislike pimpage, I REALLY dislike hit-and-run merchants, but I also understand that you guys need to know about races...


So, thats a possible framework for you guys to follow...

DeV.

I think that is an excellent idea. Apart from anything else, I seem to hear about (particularly smaller club) events too late to organise entering. Also, very often the information on runireland is limited (if its advertised there at all).

I like the idea of a standard list of questions, which IMO should include
-price, location, what's included in price etc
- who organises and "owns" the event (ie. I'd like to know if it's run by a club, or an individual). Asking if the event is "for profit" could be hard because in some ways that's a hard question to answer. I think just knowing who it's organised by helps.

You could put these RD announcements in a sub-forum and leave the main forum for the commentary threads, not started by RDs.

Bambaata

I quite like the fact RD's come here to promote their event and answer any questions. As long as its confined to one thread i'm happy to have them do it

louthandproud

plodder wrote: »

I think that is an excellent idea. Apart from anything else, I seem to hear about (particularly smaller club) events too late to organise entering. Also, very often the information on runireland is limited (if its advertised there at all).

I like the idea of a standard list of questions, which IMO should include
-price, location, what's included in price etc
- who organises and "owns" the event (ie. I'd like to know if it's run by a club, or an individual). Asking if the event is "for profit" could be hard because in some ways that's a hard question to answer. I think just knowing who it's organised by helps.

You could put these RD announcements in a sub-forum and leave the main forum for the commentary threads, not started by RDs.

I think it's reasonable enough to ask about the "for profit" v "for charity" question...

copacetic

--amadeus-- wrote: »

See, having him come in is like having the headmaster walk in at school. "Oh oh, what have I done...!"

Excellent suggestion though - so two questions to you all:

- Would a race specific forum be worthwhile?
- What questions would we insist a race director answer in thier 1st post?

I'd prefer not to have a seperate forum unless it gets out of hand, poker is much much busier than A/R/T.

Random questions, not in order..

1) Distance (offcially measured?)
2) whens the race?
3) entry cost
4) For profit/charity
5) If for charitty, exactly how much of entry fee is going to charity
6) goodie bag, exactly whats in it
7) chip timing?
8) when does entry close, how many runners allowed?
9) closed roads? for how long?
10) water stations, how many and where, cups or bottles?
11) gels or sports drinks? How much and where.
12) miles and kms both marked?

asimonov

plodder wrote: »

I think that is an excellent idea. Apart from anything else, I seem to hear about (particularly smaller club) events too late to organise entering. Also, very often the information on runireland is limited (if its advertised there at all).

I like the idea of a standard list of questions, which IMO should include
-price, location, what's included in price etc
- who organises and "owns" the event (ie. I'd like to know if it's run by a club, or an individual). Asking if the event is "for profit" could be hard because in some ways that's a hard question to answer. I think just knowing who it's organised by helps.

You could put these RD announcements in a sub-forum and leave the main forum for the commentary threads, not started by RDs.

all good...

plus

- accurate distance (how its measured)
- water / aid stations if applicable
- chip timing type (gun to tape or complete)
- link to route map(?)


The FIXTURES thread that used to be stickied is the ideal place for RD's to pimp to their hearts content and as per plodder leave the main form for commentary threads not started by RD's. Maybe Fixtures and Meet and Race should be stickied again?

rigal

• Course description + Route map in mapmyrun type format to include elevation
• Prizes (not relevant for me but for others on here!)
• Changing facilities - before and after
• When will results be available online

copacetic

asimonov wrote: »

The FIXTURES thread that used to be stickied is the ideal place for RD's to pimp to their hearts content and as per plodder leave the main form for commentary threads not started by RD's. Maybe Fixtures and Meet and Race should be stickied again?

don't agree with this one, we should keep a single thread per event, rather than mix them all up together. I'd prefer to see the race info in an early post (via mod edit if needed) and the RD responding on the thread to questions. It's messy and unworkable to have one thread for discussion of an event and another where the RD is allowed to post reponses along with all other RDs. It would be pretty hectic when there are a number of events on at the same time during the summer.

plodder

louthandproud wrote: »

I think it's reasonable enough to ask about the "for profit" v "for charity" question...

"for charity" definitely. If a percentage of the entry fee is for charity then how much? And if not, then will you publish after the event how much the charity actually got?

The problem with "for profit" is that an RD might not know if the event will make a profit. The aim might be to break even in the first few years, maybe retain profits to expand the event etc. etc. It's a can of worms and if the questions are too probing, then RDs might not bother posting in the first place.

jlang

I've a few points which generally repeat/agree with the others above. I think the mod policy is working quite well and there's no real cause for concern at this time.

Race Directors is people too. They should be free to contribute to threads or start them if they'd like. The smart ones figure out pretty quickly how things work - how much they can/should say without crossing the unmarked line to pimpage - and I have great faith in the posters'/mods' ability to put manners on the others who hang around. I can't see a mandatory questionnaire or a race subforum being especially useful. Some will go for hit'n'run posting and others will stick around and keep an eye on things but imposing extra rules won't change that.

I've no problem with someone aiming to making money out of a well-run race. Part of organising a race is to get the word out and engaging with here is just one useful way to spread the word.

A well attended race will probably be discussed here regardless of whether the organisers post officially or unoffically or indeed whether it's a success or a shambles. A race with "issues" tends to get the negative comments followed by the more balanced views. It'd be nice to think the organiser would be able to post a reply with suitably apologetic undertone addressing the relevant matters. On Eireman in particular, Eoin may have overdone the enthusiasm in his initial promotion but I imagine he is as unsatisfied with the outcome as any of the participants. The race has such potential that I'd like to see him or someone have another go.

BeepBeep67

To be honest I don't really care if a race is for profit or charity, but a list of questions that a flyer typically dosen't answer would be great, most have been asked before, for me it's:

• Driving instructions.
• Parking Information.
• Route map.
• Accuracy of course.
• Mile / Km markers.
• Link to last years results (if applicable) or expected entries.
• Changing facilities.
• Distance from race HQ to start.
• When are results due to be published.

I like the idea of a race forum, where races can be discussed on their merits.
If an RD uses Boards to discuss their race, then it should be mandatory to answer all reasonable feedback.
We could introduce a post race poll, which would raise the bar a bit.

911sc

I would be interesting to be able to review events in a standard way, e.g. questions with multiple choice type, and publish a rating for events.
Events have mushroomed, and it seems that overpromising/underdelivering is becoming a norm.

Condo131

plodder wrote: »

...who organises and "owns" the event (ie. I'd like to know if it's run by a club, or an individual) .

What you really mean is the Ultimate Owner. All races in Ireland require an AAI permit and this will only be granted to an AAI registered club.
So... these races, charging high entry fees, that are cropping up all round the country are all organised, at least nominally, under the auspices of an AAI club. (I often wondered how much they got from the event, i.e. what benefits actually accrued to the club)

plodder wrote: »

...You could put these RD announcements in a sub-forum and leave the main forum for the commentary threads, not started by RDs.

The RD may not be the only one promoting. In our case, I'm not RD for our events, but I do most of the promoting, so the Rd may be 'prevented' from posting but others aren't. Impossible to police, IMHO.

The idea of grading races, with points being awarded across several categories, sounds good. I'd add another scorable category: whether the course is measured (Jones counter). [Must think a bit more on the categories and post in a few days]

tunney

If promotion of an event is going to be banned or moved to a sub forum, or restrictions placed on what can and can't and must be said that I would like to see all promotion of races by anyone treated in a similar fashion. Personally it has really pi$$ed me off when club members have come on and waxed lyrical about their clubs events and how fantastic they are, and how in fact all the participants who disagree with this assesment, are in fact wrong. Every race and every shameless promotion should be treated the same regardless.

silverside

why not, as long as they don't overdo it (and people are allowed to make fair comment, like "remember this race last year where xxx happened" or "did this one in yyy its brilliant" )

I dont have anything against professionally run events as such, they can be a great way of bringing attention and newcomers into the sport, but if the organisers don't deliver a fair event for the money then they should be pulled up on it

At the same time I wouldnt automatically say an event was good just because it was run by a club. And I think the "contribution to charity" thing is a bit of a cod, I'm more than capable of donating myself without wondering what percentage of the leftovers after race expenses will end up helping the needy.

I like the idea of a subforum for event announcements. It seems to work well in the Dance/Electronic forum (they have a "Clubbing" subforum where threads are mainly started by promoters).

dna_leri

Condo131 wrote: »

What you really mean is the Ultimate Owner. All races in Ireland require an AAI permit and this will only be granted to an AAI registered club.
So... these races, charging high entry fees, that are cropping up all round the country are all organised, at least nominally, under the auspices of an AAI club. (I often wondered how much they got from the event, i.e. what benefits actually accrued to the club)

I don't believe that is true. Anyone can organise an event, without any connection to AAI. They can even advertise a Fast 5K event and actually only be 3 miles.

The current method of advertising races here works pretty well - no subforums or restrictions needed. A few improvements, like insisting RDs declare their interest (hard to police) and a list of questions that we expect to get answered, are worthwhile.

Stupid_Private

I agree with a few posts above. A list of questions is great is long as they don't go overboard. I think BeebBeep67 covers the main ones for me - maybe the addition of cost to his list. Is it too much to ask who measured the course? There's only a few official course measurers in the country.

I think all this "does it go to charity" lark should be left out. I don't ask my local shop what they do with the cash from their overpriced produce, so why ask a race director? Asking to publish how much they donated to charity is OTT. If the charities are happy for the publicity they're getting from an event then we can leave it at that. I'm no more likely to do a 10k race because a portion of the money goes to some charity than back to a running club or into the RD's pockets. As long as it's reasonably priced, well organised, and accurately measured I'll do it.

meathcountysec

dna_leri wrote: »

I don't believe that is true. Anyone can organise an event, without any connection to AAI.

Anyone can organise a race/event. AAI permits have to go through a county board for approval before submitting to AAI, and generally have to have the support of a registered club. In theory a permit will not be granted for a similar event within a 50 mile radius on a given day.

Peterx

Race promotion should be allowed, I've heard of quite a few smaller races through both the imra forum and this one that I would never have heard of otherwise.
For Race Organisers with no advertising budget or friends in da media forums and flyers are the main way of getting the message out, to block the forum route makes it much harder for new organisers to come through the ranks.
I'd like to see a 24 hour cooling off period after a race before people come on to rant, some of the heat of the moment stuff on the Eireman thread was over the top (i presume that's impossible to organise)

In saying that, the negative feedback on both Eireman and Gaelforce is fantastic stuff for any potential race organiser - just distill down the complaints, do the opposite and you have the perfect race:)

Running Bing

I definitely think race promotion should be allowed.

At the end of the day it benefits everybody.


I think at times folks (including mods) can be a little too sensitive around here. Threads are closed very quickly and people can be way too quick to take offence.....the last thing we need to do is add another thing to the list that we cant talk about.:rolleyes:

thirtyfoot

One question I'd ask of all race announcement postings is where are the profits going and not even charity vs private. More so private vs club. If its private they can feck off and put a banner ad on top and pay boards.ie and if its a club venture with a fully regulated permit etc you are free to post away. That is me being biased and protecting what I want to protect which would be the overall sport of athletics/running as opposed to some guy or organisation running an event to make a profit for their own pockets. This sentiment stems from my opinion that all the people organising races outside of the 'system' are not adding anything to the sport as a whole apart from a very large but very narrow group within the sport, ie, the recreational road runner. Yes, the runner benefits and the organiser gets some cash but it ends there and there is no trickle down to the clubs and the various needs they and their young athletes may have. But then again its market forces and thats what people want and its up to the sport of athletics/running to capture these people into the sport proper.

Having mentioned all that, as regards the forum I'd prefer a separate sub-forum as mentioned by DeVore and that way the main forum would be less of a noticeboard for road races. Having said that, I am a little distracted and suffering from withdrawal symptoms now that the Worlds are over and for me there is nothing worthwhile to talk about here, so ignore me:P Going to be a long few months until the cross-country season kicks off in earnest.

stick_figure

I think they should be allowed to pimp their events on here, as long as it's not approaching the levelling of spamming the forum. I'm not in a club, and I don't have any friends who run, so I really like that I can hear about a variety of events on here and gauge from user feedback if it's something I might be able/ would like to do

--amadeus--

Running Bing wrote: »

I think at times folks (including mods) can be a little too sensitive around here. Threads are closed very quickly and people can be way too quick to take offence.....the last thing we need to do is add another thing to the list that we cant talk about.:rolleyes:

I want to pick up on that (cos I'm sensitive )

Of the last 10 threads locked 2 were to prevent Boards Ltd (the holding company that owns Boards.ie) from being exposed to accusations of slander and defamation. These two were locked after a number of posters in thread asked for them to be locked. The other 8 were split 50:50 between people looking for medical advice (banned site wide) and people looking for number swaps (against race rules and our charter). And I had to go back nearly 3 weeks and 10 pages to find them. So I don't think we lock *that* much stuff and there isn't a huge list of banned topics.

I actually agree with Tingle - the main Board can look like a noticeboard at the height of the race season with nothing but local race thread titles and it can swamp good threads and crowd them out so I'd personally prefer a sub forum.

Clum

Race promotion should definitely be allowed here. That's one of the great things about this forum. But if you are going to apply restrictions I'd say only allow AAI or TI sanctioned races.

Among the many races I've done this year one 5K race was actually 5 miles and another 10k race was 7.5 miles! Neither had AAI permit. The organisers of both races have held another event which I didn't take part in guessing that (and subsequently being right) that the distance would be way off.

Actually, those races shouldn't be held at all, never mind promoted. Too many loosely organised races around and those types of non permit events shouldn't be promoted, but permitted races should be, whether they are for profit or not.

thirtyfoot

Peterx wrote: »

I'd like to see a 24 hour cooling off period after a race before people come on to rant, some of the heat of the moment stuff on the Eireman thread was over the top (i presume that's impossible to organise)

No way. The guy that organises that is probably the biggest race pimp on here. If he is going to pimp his race so strongly then he should be open to strong criticism in return. Don't know apart him from his persona on here so thats all I can comment on. I'd imagine if he organises an event like that he'd be open to criticism as he logs in with his own name and is open about things.

Peterx wrote: »

In saying that, the negative feedback on both Eireman and Gaelforce is fantastic stuff for any potential race organiser - just distill down the complaints, do the opposite and you have the perfect race:)

Yes, but is boards to become a free feedback as well as advertising hub for privately run, potentially profitable events for race entrepreneurs?

I assume these are for profit, privately run events?

plodder

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I think all this "does it go to charity" lark should be left out. I don't ask my local shop what they do with the cash from their overpriced produce, so why ask a race director?

It's different because you know exactly what you're getting at your local shop (even if it is over priced). but if a race says it's donating some money to charity then you don't know what the charity is getting unless they tell you. It could be as little as 10euros (making that up) or 50% of the entry fee (not making that up, because one race said so).

Asking to publish how much they donated to charity is OTT. If the charities are happy for the publicity they're getting from an event then we can leave it at that.

Asking them to publish doesn't mean they have to. They can just answer the question saying: "No, were not saying". Also, it's not just really an issue between the race and the charity. It's between the race and the people who pay money to enter the race.

I'm no more likely to do a 10k race because a portion of the money goes to some charity than back to a running club or into the RD's pockets. As long as it's reasonably priced, well organised, and accurately measured I'll do it.

Fair enough. Here's how I look at it. If a race looks very expensive, then I might do it, if I know (like the example above) a decent whack is going to some good cause, eg. a club. If it's privately organised, then I'm a lot more wary.

Condo131

dna_leri wrote: »

I don't believe that is true. Anyone can organise an event, without any connection to AAI.

Actually that's very true. Anyone can organise a race. BUT......

If an AAI registered athlete takes part in an event which has not been sanctioned by the AAI, they risk being suspended. That happened a number of years ago in a high-profile 10M race in Cork. You will find that the number of races that are run without AAI approval are few and far between.

I don't know what IMRA and the Tri Association do, but I expect that these associations also have similar rules & regulations (somebody else might educate the rest of us on these two bodies situations). IMRA and the Tri Assoc will have their own insurance policies covering events.

One of the prime benefits of the AAI permit is that the event is insured at very low cost.

So...for all intents and purposes....To organise a road race, you do need an AAI permit.

nerraw1111

I think they should be allowed pimp without the need for a new sub forum.

I thought the guy promoting the lakes 10k was very reasonable and restrained, just posting a reminder to his race.

--amadeus--

OK, consensus seems to be promotion is fine but over-promotion / bumping / multiple threads aren't. And most favour some form of standard info on a 1st post re a race.

Which only leaves the sub forum. Is it worth polling or should we leave it run and see how it goes?

HardyEustace

Clum wrote: »

Race promotion should definitely be allowed here. That's one of the great things about this forum. But if you are going to apply restrictions I'd say only allow AAI or TI sanctioned races.

Among the many races I've done this year one 5K race was actually 5 miles and another 10k race was 7.5 miles! Neither had AAI permit. The organisers of both races have held another event which I didn't take part in guessing that (and subsequently being right) that the distance would be way off.

Actually, those races shouldn't be held at all, never mind promoted. Too many loosely organised races around and those types of non permit events shouldn't be promoted, but permitted races should be, whether they are for profit or not.

I think that all races should be allowed. Just because a race is TI sanctioned doesn't mean that it's a perfect race. Far from it. Just the other day a group of us were chatting about Athlone 07 which a number of people have mentioned as a very dangerous race and thus would never do Athlone again. The run in Athlone this year was .5k short (which is a substantial amount when the distance is 5k).

Let the users decide what is and isn't a good race. The feed back here is a great way to discover how good or bad the races are.

As an aside, I wouldn't be crazy about a separate sub forum as I think that often training tips or relevant questions can appear as a natural progression during a discussion about preparing for a race.

RoyMcC

HardyEustace wrote: »

As an aside, I wouldn't be crazy about a separate sub forum as I think that often training tips or relevant questions can appear as a natural progression during a discussion about preparing for a race.

Agree. The main forum would be decimated if all the race threads were relegated to a sub-forum.

tagoona

I do think that the forum would be empty if we moved all race threads to a sub-forum.
However it should be possible to have a race details sub forum, where the bare bones (the 20 questions) are answered in the first post. Apart from supplying technical details, it would also serve as a place for reviews of the event (scores out of 10 for say atmosphere, pre-race organisation, food etc.
This could then link to details& reviews thread of the same race in different years.

Discussions on the main forum could then link the details&review thread of that particular race, while discussing training, travel details & target times etc.

One suggestion on thread title would be sport-event-county-distance-date,
e.g. tri-brianboru-limerick-olympic,sprint-sept8 - for example,
or aai-lakes10k-galway-10k-oct3

That would make it easy to pick your sport and details form a long list of events in the athletics, marathon and tri

MCOS

RDs should be allowed to come on and promote their events IMO within reason. Its the posters on here that determine the attention it gets and the direction it takes. Its a risky place for a RD to come on an broadcast as everything here is so hotly debated and minutely dissected. PeterX makes and excellent point that we simply point the RDs in the right direction with our post mortems. What if RDs actually listen to us and use some of the sound and level feedback to do something about it? What if Eiremen steps up next year with an all new lessons learned approach and delivers on its promise?

If its not going to be discussed here, it will be discussed somewhere else. How many potential RDs are amongst us 'floating ideas' everyday.

I like the idea of a RD having to give a certain list of info about their event... that would certainly help

HardyEustace

I can't help feel that even if we do say "NO RACE PIMPING" that it'll happen anyway but just maybe to lesser or sneakier degree.

I really like the idea of 20 questions and can't help feel that if it's going to happen anyway, let's have it above board and with certain constraints in place.

Zuppy

Condo131 wrote: »

Actually that's very true. Anyone can organise a race. BUT......

If an AAI registered athlete takes part in an event which has not been sanctioned by the AAI, they risk being suspended. That happened a number of years ago in a high-profile 10M race in Cork. You will find that the number of races that are run without AAI approval are few and far between.

I don't know what IMRA and the Tri Association do, but I expect that these associations also have similar rules & regulations (somebody else might educate the rest of us on these two bodies situations). IMRA and the Tri Assoc will have their own insurance policies covering events.

I know that TI don't threaten their members if they do a non TI race. I have never been to IMRA/ IMRA races so can't comment on their policy.


As for this discussion, I have waited and thought about not posting on this, I was RD for a small swim which I pimped on the swim forum and it also ended up on this one. But IMO as both a user and a RD, I would like to see it continue as is. The only exception I would make, if any, is that hit and run postings be watched/ Mods judgment.
For most users, myself included, discussing a race, feedback or plain old first hand info is great.
As a RD, I feel that the feedback or even the faq in the lead up is extremely helpful.

As for the Charity V Profit argument, that has be had on other threads and discussed more times. Who cares? I think was goes for one race should be for all races on boards.

chinguetti

What about putting up a notice that RDs can put a notice up their race with the 20 Qs & As say a set time before an event and then a reminder a week before the event. Put a limit on the number of posts RDs can put on their race and if they go over the limit, put a penalty in place. I'll let the Mods decide that one.

Then those who run it can say what they thought, good or bad after the event or during it if people have a problem with the cost, have done it before, any comments etc..

If its bad, keep a list of events that people gave out about alot and keep updating that list (the same if its good) so everyone will know to avoid it (run it) the next year its on or if that RD is holding another event.

As others have said, without Boards.ie i wouldn't know about alot of the events i have run in the last 18 months so i think that race threads are important on here.

DeVore

Amadeus, you see my avatar? The shopkeeper from Mr Benn??

I got that applied to me because the line in the cartoon was "as if by magic, the shopkeeper appeared". Lying in bed at 3 am looking at the front page I spotted this thread and thought of the analagous poker forum...

I prefer to think of myself as a wander force of nature then as a headmaster!

Anyway, check it out for yourselves... here is a link to the subforum for Real World Poker Events: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=630

For now I would suggest maintaining the threads here in the main forum but if you are getting so many that its pushing down other threads, then consider a sub forum (drop me a line).

As an ex-All Ireland junior sprinter I have a soft spot for the athletics forum here, and I really like the positive attitude everyone brings to it. Good job, long may it last.

DeV.

donothoponpop

When I posed the title question last night, I wasn't even sure if I should- I'm very happy with the way things are here, what info is posted, how things are moderated, and judging by the responses so far, so are the majority. Like all runners, I like to find out about new races, and Boards is a great place to do that. Its also a plus when the RD's take on board what posters here are saying, and respond to them (as did the Lakes 10k RD when he lowered the entry price without a tshirt: again, fair play to ya).

I doubt there's a real need for polls, its obvious you mods are onto any shills who appear, but some of what's been posted makes for interesting reading. Most people seem happy with the way things are. It's great to hear about new events (and the more choice the better). Not too many slow neurons here: if someone is obviously pushing an event too much, they'll be called out.

A few RD's have responded, (Alan, Seb, for example) and they say they respond to questions about their events- very commendable. In Alan's case doubly so, as a lot of folk complain about the value for money in Connamarathon- but yet again the general consensus is, there's obviously a market or people wouldn't come back, anyone can charge what they want for a race, and fair play if they make a huge profit (or whatever). In this regard, if someone posts/contributes to these forums for a while, they should be given more leeway than virgin poster "MRXXXBEST10kRACE!!!!"

My own bugbear is when a race is loudly advertised as giving "a portion of proceeds to charity". From experience, I know charity can often be used as a hook, and I'd suggest that is someone says "a portion", it would follow that they would need to put a specific number or percentage on that "portion".

The fact that so many people seem to suggest or agree with the idea of a basic set of relevant questions (accuracy of distance, AAI/TI sanction, etc), suggests to me there's a core of Boardies who also feel some races are a little "soft" in delivering what they promise, and answering a few relevant questions beforehand might focus an RD's mind into making a better event before the off. Which is better for everybody all round.

--amadeus--

Ok, I think we have a pretty good handle on the questions. Sometime between now and Monday I'll do up a template that I can post, lock and link to from teh Index thread. Anytime someone posts a thread about a race the regulars can point them to teh template and request it's filled out. Race reviews we used to have a thread for and it was going to be part of teh Biki project that Robin was looking after (though he's too busy being a skibum these days, hah, slacker)

I've just had a look at the first 20 non sticky threads on the forum and 8 of them are race specific. At close on half I personally think we've reached tipping point and I would be strongly in favour of a Race subforum. It'll free up the main forum for more general chat and mean interesting threads don't drop off the front page as quickly. Think about it - you wouldn't grow carrots in teh middle of your rose bushes now would you?! And if it doesn't work we can always merge it all back

DeVore

The creation of the event subforum hasnt dulled the main forum of the poker area in fact if anything the whole place got busier.

You could do worse then read their stickies and see how they handled it. Be tough but fair on the RD's, the good ones will stand out even when being criticised and will, I guaruntee, be surprised by the response when they accept criticism and correct mistakes.


I wouldnt think of a sub forum as halving your threads, rather doubling the space for more threads and longer discussions of topics before they are pushed off...

My guide is that if any thread is pushed off the first page inside 48 of being created, then its time for a subforum.

DeV.