Increase in number enrolling for priesthood.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

toiletduck

Just as a matter of interest, what's the drop out rate like traditionally does anyone know? I ask because I've met a lot of men who went a few years and dropped out.

hairyheretic

Sounds like about half from that article.

toiletduck

Oops

The Big Red Button

toiletduck wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, what's the drop out rate like traditionally does anyone know? I ask because I've met a lot of men who went a few years and dropped out.

on average, for every 10 men who begin training, five or six are ordained.

I would estimate 40-50%

Red Alert

I suppose that means that they're really encouraged to think about their vocation, and some of them realize that they don't actually have a vocation - or not one to be a priest. Fair dues to them for going and putting a year or two in though!

prinz

The model was now a broader one of collaboration with and inclusion of lay people, he said.

This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times

I welcome that. Not before time either.

Wonder how they allocated spots, can see a load of hopefuls drawing straws to get Rome or Valladolid

geuro

I don't want to offend anyone with my comment but I'll post it anyway.

I am someone who was raised catholic, made my confirmation etc, but has since become disinterested in the church. I don't think I will ever go back to it and I don't really care. I would prefer not to have my child baptized in a church, which is a pity because my parents would be quite traditional in that regard.

Though I never really had a catholic faith, the recent Ryan report and the issues with institutional abuse have been the triggers that have made me really turn my back and shut the door on the church. The reaction from religious organisations in this country has been appalling. The hypocrisy of a group of people preaching morality and right and wrong, while at the same time sinking to depths of dispicable moral depravity is sickening. I know there are bad eggs and good eggs, but the amount of rot is astounding.

So, when I hear that the numbers are on the rise for Maynooth, the very first thing I think is "What are the steps being taken to make sure this doesn't happen", "What sort of effort is put into the analysis of what has happened in the church", "does the institution at Maynooth treat the topic of abuse as a really important issue", "Are we introducing a new wave of perverts and paedophiles into trusted positions in our society".

The times article mentions that "The model was now a broader one of collaboration with and inclusion of lay people", which is encouraging.

Sorry for negative attitude when many of you posters are happy with the rise in vocations, I just thought I would share my thoughts

prinz

geuro wrote: »

Sorry for negative attitude when many of you posters are happy with the rise in vocations, I just thought I would share my thoughts

All valid points. However the opposite could also be true, these fellas could be following their vocation, in the light of the Ryan Report etc., in order to ensure such that things don't happen again.

geuro

Indeed - and it did also occur to me that this may be the case, that people feel that now, in it's hour of need in this country, they should support the church and seek to re-establish it as a modern, respectable organisation... It is the 'bad eggs' that I'm worried about - I just hope that the church is properly focused on the prevention of abuse in the future

prinz

geuro wrote: »

I just hope that the church is properly focused on the prevention of abuse in the future

I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't share that hope.

Fanny Cradock

Indeed! Let us hope and pray that some very painful lessons have been learnt well.

nozzferrahhtoo

I read that Fr. Aidan Troy wants the church to STOP taking new applicants until such time as the fears of people like the poster above are dealt with.

I guess we can conclude from this, that he is not happy enough such steps HAVE been taken?

Rather than us all sitting here "hoping" and "praying" they have done so, I hope someone more in the know finds this thread and informs us exactly what, if anything, has been changed in the churches procedures in enrollment, training, and working protocols.

geuro

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I read that Fr. Aidan Troy wants the church to STOP taking new applicants until such time as the fears of people like the poster above are dealt with.

I guess we can conclude from this, that he is not happy enough such steps HAVE been taken?

Rather than us all sitting here "hoping" and "praying" they have done so, I hope someone more in the know finds this thread and informs us exactly what, if anything, has been changed in the churches procedures in enrollment, training, and working protocols.

Great post, exactly the way I view the issue. Hoping and praying is not enough at this stage. As Father Troy says, it is time to "halt recruitment, reform and reorganise". It is not business as usual.

nozzferrahhtoo

Thank you for the kind reply. I agree. What worries me here are words like “Let us hope and pray”, “I just hope”, “the opposite could be true”.

Alas it seems, and I include myself in this, that we are all sitting here saying we hope it is being fixed, or it could be being fixed, or we pray it is being fixed.

I will make a point of writing to the Maynooth college and my local parish to find out exactly IF and HOW it is being fixed.

It has struck me reading this thread that we owe it to ourselves to find out, rather than just push it aside and hope someone else is dealing with it.

Maybe other on here can do the same, or anyone with inside information on what is being done (if anything) can share what they know.

I have heard some small apologies from the church, and some financial reparations. However not once have I heard them stand up and say where they think they went wrong, how they think they should be in the future, and a road map of how to get from one to the other.

prinz

geuro wrote: »

Great post, exactly the way I view the issue. Hoping and praying is not enough at this stage. As Father Troy says, it is time to "halt recruitment, reform and reorganise". It is not business as usual.

That's all well and good, but people have been saying that for years, including priests (Brian D'Arcy for example). What they need is people entering the priesthood in a new frame of mind, with new ideas and with a determination for change. There's no point turning away seminarians, what purpose would that possibly serve. What the Church needs, IMO, is more people, obviously following a true calling unlike many of their predecessors, joining.

prinz

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I have heard some small apologies from the church, and some financial reparations. However not once have I heard them stand up and say where they think they went wrong, how they think they should be in the future, and a road map of how to get from one to the other.

That's alright in light of the Irish situation, but it's important to note that in many countries the abuse etc as seen here has been found to be minimal or non existant. I don't believe the Church as a whole went wrong. Definitely many individuals went wrong, the Church to an extent and the State here went awfully wrong.

The fears of the OP, while well founded and understandable, will never be dealt with 100%. It's virtually impossible.

nozzferrahhtoo

That is an entirely valid way of putting it. At the same time however if children were abused in a school the first thing that the school would be called on to do is put in procedures and protections to ensure it does not re-occur.

If an injury happens in the workplace the first thing the unions do is demand procedural and environmental changes to ensure the same injury can not happen again.

I address my comment mainly at ireland, but it is just as valid as the two examples above. More so given that this was relatively widespread and systematic compared to either of my examples. Given what has happened, I want to hear the church say how they felt it happened, how it was allowed to continue and what steps are being taken to ensure it does not happen again.

That it is virtually impossible to be 100% is true to say, you are right. However it is true in EVERY scenario from schools, to work places, to churches. That something may not be 100% attainable in no way invalidates the fact they have to try.

geuro

People may have been saying that for years, including priests (Brian D'Arcy for example). What reform took place?

Obviously people entering the priesthood in a new frame of mind, with new ideas and with a determination for change is to be welcomed by Catholics. And I hope it happens, but hope alone is not enough.

I work in an organisation where we constantly try to maintain high standards. If something goes wrong, or a major problem is uncovered, we actively focus on this problem. We brainstorm and come up with solutions for it's resolution. It receives our full attention, and the root cause of the issue is identified and fixed. We don't mumble an apology and take on another bunch of recruits and train them using the old manual.

What people need to know is how the 7 years of training has changed in response to the disgraceful revelations about the church. What ongoing practices and supports have been introduced to minimise the risk of anyone suffering abuse at the hands of the clergy in the future, etc. What specific measures have been taken to improve vigilance and communication in this regard, both within the church and between the church and third parties in the broader society.

EDIT: Sorry may have rehashed some of the post above, didn't see it till now..

prinz

A quick look at St Patrick's Maynooth website reveals this...

The Formation programme at Maynooth College is based on the Programme for the Formation of Priests in Irish Seminaries (2005)

Presumably that's fairly different to how seminarians were instructed in the 1930's and 40's. Obviously it should be continually updated and amended, i.e. post-Ryan Report.

Biro

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

That is an entirely valid way of putting it. At the same time however if children were abused in a school the first thing that the school would be called on to do is put in procedures and protections to ensure it does not re-occur.

If an injury happens in the workplace the first thing the unions do is demand procedural and environmental changes to ensure the same injury can not happen again.

I address my comment mainly at ireland, but it is just as valid as the two examples above. More so given that this was relatively widespread and systematic compared to either of my examples. Given what has happened, I want to hear the church say how they felt it happened, how it was allowed to continue and what steps are being taken to ensure it does not happen again.

That it is virtually impossible to be 100% is true to say, you are right. However it is true in EVERY scenario from schools, to work places, to churches. That something may not be 100% attainable in no way invalidates the fact they have to try.

But there is change. Look at your local parish, find out what alter boys and girls are joining and you'll see that the local priest is not allowed train them up unless there is at least one other adult present. It's the same with every youth club, school, etc, there needs to be more than one adult present.
That's the way it should be, it's equal across the board. You can't really expect a questionaire to be handed out to any new priest, teacher or youth club leader recruit to test if they're a pediophile, it would do no good. The best you can do is check the sex offenders list, and always have childern supervised by more than one adult.
How many people are as vigilant when letting their kids sleep over in their friends houses?

prinz

Biro wrote: »

You can't really expect a questionaire to be handed out to any new priest, teacher or youth club leader recruit to test if they're a pediophile, it would do no good.

:pac: what came to my mind was a questionnaire I had to complete going to the US a few years, such high brow questions as 1. Are you a terrorist?
2. Have you ever been a member of a terrorist organisation or engaged in terrorist activities?... started getting the sweats wondering what I should say :pac:

Biro wrote: »

How many people are as vigilant when letting their kids sleep over in their friends houses?

Especially when you consider most children abused by adults, suffer abuse by a family member or close friend of the family.

nozzferrahhtoo

That is one policy change Biro, thank you. That is what I am asking. I want to know what has been done, what policies are changing, and have them publicise this extensively and have the polices scrutinized by the same experts who scrutinize them in any other industry with access to children.

So far I personally have not heard of any of them, nor do I know who can answer my questions. Quite literally the only thing I have heard is what you just said, and even then I just have your word for it.

Who is the public face of this? Who can I approach? Where can I get these answers? I will be starting by approaching my local churches and the colleges in Maynooth. Any other advice or knowledge is welcome.

cossi

does anyone on here know any seminarians in training in maynooth right now

gigino

prinz wrote: »

Especially when you consider most children abused by adults, suffer abuse by a family member or close friend of the family.

but still the statistics show that 5.8% of all boys who were sexually abused were abused by Priests / religous. Thats just sexual abuse ; physical abuse percentages are probably higher as many boys got beatings in classrooms, industrial schools etc.

Monty Burnz

I presume the economic collapse is the proximate cause of this is this sudden increase?

Asry

That's great I'm glad the young lads still feel they want to do this with their lives. Fair play to them.

Also, why does every discussion of Catholicism have to come back to paedophilia? I mean, yes, ok, it happened, the Church didn't say sorry and it was a tiny number of priests who did it in all the priests there are.

I probably sound really callous but the whole clergy abuse thing is getting old.

Festus

Asry wrote: »

Also, why does every discussion of Catholicism have to come back to paedophilia?

because it is allowed to.

gimmebroadband

Festus wrote: »

because it is allowed to.

There was plenty of abuse in other denominations!

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2007/11/church-of-england-ignored-child-abuse.html

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6938

http://www.reformation.com/CSA/episcopalianabuse.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy292.html

http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/crime-anglican-vicar-jailed-for-child-abuse/SbJ02DmhPWhEhzqStWjs_A

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6594439.stm

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/anglican-chruch-of-south-australia-swept-child-sex-abuse-under-carpet/story-e6frea83-1225971525957

http://www.rte.ie/tv/wouldyoubelieve/

http://www.abc.net.au/tasmania/news/200410/s1212956.htm

Monty Burnz

gimmebroadband wrote: »

There was plenty of abuse in other denominations!

I don't think it's so much the abuse that worries and angers people (as you get bad eggs in any organisation) but the extent that the CC went to cover it all up, putting the reputation of the church ahead of the lives of children.

gimmebroadband

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think it's so much the abuse that worries and angers people (as you get bad eggs in any organisation) but the extent that the CC went to cover it all up, putting the reputation of the church ahead of the lives of children.

If you read the links I posted, you will see there were coverups there too! Not saying it was right, those who did it no matter what christian flavour they are should face the consequences!

It gets weary when ordinary Catholics on some threads get haranged because of their faith - we don't base our faith on what clerics do!:)

gigino

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think it's so much the abuse that worries and angers people (as you get bad eggs in any organisation) but the extent that the CC went to cover it all up, putting the reputation of the church ahead of the lives of children.

It was the scale and severity of the abuse in Ireland - some of which was never reported as those in charge of the industrial schools, magdalene laundries etc had passed away, and / or the victims had moved on. That combined with the way the RCC moved the religous involved from parish to parish, or off to the third world.;). Some people are of the opinion that celibacy is part of the reason, as is is un-natural for living creatures to control their sexual urges / not reproduce. At least the like of Bishop Casey and Fr. Cleary, who took pride of place each side of the Pope in Galway in '79, done it with adults....but they still tried to keep it quiet / cover it up for as long as possible.

cossi

i read recently about a 18 year old seminarian who entered the seminary recently at the age of 18 straight after his leavng cert.this lad deserves some credit i think.it also said the youngest serving priest in any irish diocese is 29.

gigino

geuro wrote: »

The reaction from religious organisations in this country has been appalling. The hypocrisy of a group of people preaching morality and right and wrong, while at the same time sinking to depths of dispicable moral depravity is sickening. I know there are bad eggs and good eggs, but the amount of rot is astounding.

So, when I hear that the numbers are on the rise for Maynooth, the very first thing I think is "What are the steps being taken to make sure this doesn't happen", "What sort of effort is put into the analysis of what has happened in the church", "does the institution at Maynooth treat the topic of abuse as a really important issue", "Are we introducing a new wave of perverts and paedophiles into trusted positions in our society".

The numbers and the wave will never be as big as before.
Quote from http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/irelands-sons-turn-their-backs-on-the-priesthood-2063257.html

"The biggest problem the church faces is the lack of new recruits to replace older priests that die or retire. The average age for a priest in Ireland in currently 63 whilst clergymen over the age of 70 currently outnumber those under 40 by ten to one.
The true extent of the crisis was laid bare in 2008 when the Irish church admitted that 160 priests had died that year with only nine new ordinations.
Figures for nuns were even more dramatic, with the deaths of 228 nuns and only two taking final vows for service in religious life."

gimmebroadband

The Church began with just 12, and it will flourish again even with fewer numbers. The CC throughout it's entire 2000 year history has had to overcome several crises'! Jesus is head of the Church and He will not let it go into oblivion - He said that Hell itself will not prevail against it!

Asry

Festus wrote: »

because it is allowed to.

Sigh. Boring.

We should just have a thread where people can rant about sex abuse.

gimmebroadband

Asry wrote: »

Sigh. Boring.

We should just have a thread where people can rant about sex abuse.

We do!

It get's really boring when threads are hi-jacked in order to constantly bring up sex abuse, instead of discussing the topic at hand! :rolleyes:

cossi

we should stop talking about the sex abuse.these lads that are joining the seminary deserve some credit not all bad remarks.i think a priest has quet a good quality of life actually.

Festus

gimmebroadband wrote: »

We do!

It get's really boring when threads are hi-jacked in order to constantly bring up sex abuse, instead of discussing the topic at hand! :rolleyes:

Those who bring it up are clearly either obsessed or possibly still in some closet.

Penn

Festus wrote: »

Those who bring it up are clearly either obsessed or possibly still in some closet.

Hey! Nobody here is from Narnia! That remark was totally uncalled for.

Morbert

gimmebroadband wrote: »

We do!

It get's really boring when threads are hi-jacked in order to constantly bring up sex abuse, instead of discussing the topic at hand! :rolleyes:

While I am not in favour of arbitrarily bringing it up, it does have some relevance in a thread about priesthood enrolment.

Asry

Yay! Other complainers!

Why would they be in a closet....? Paedos are all gay, are they? There's a thread for that too.

And, no, I would argue sex abuse talk is really not all that relevant in this thread.

gimmebroadband

Morbert wrote: »

While I am not in favour of arbitrarily bringing it up, it does have some relevance in a thread about priesthood enrolment.

No it doesn't, sex abuse was NOT done in the name of religion or the Church - it was done by sick people!

Morbert

Asry wrote: »

And, no, I would argue sex abuse talk is really not all that relevant in this thread.

It would be naive to think the child abuse scandal has had no impact on the number of priests enrolling. It is very relevant.

Morbert

gimmebroadband wrote: »

No it doesn't, sex abuse was NOT done in the name of religion or the Church - it was done by sick people!

The thread is not about what has or has not been done in the Church's name. It is about trends in the number enrolling for priesthood.

Asry

Morbert wrote: »

The thread is not about what has or has not been done in the Church's name. It is about trends in the number enrolling for priesthood.

It's not though....? It's just about how there's a few more chaps enrolling, which is always nice to see, and how the economic downturn mostly likely has nothing to do it with. Not really about trends in general.

Not to be pedantic. That too is tedious.

Festus

Barrington wrote: »

Hey! Nobody here is from Narnia! That remark was totally uncalled for.

I love the irony. Doesn't GTA glamorise sex abuse in its third outing?

Penn

No.

If you're referring to the scandal where you can have sex with a prostitute, then kill her and get the money back, then no. GTA does not glamourise that, as it isn't part of the game. It's something the player chooses to do, not what they are made to do to progress in the game. It is the acctions of the player, not the game. Not to mention that the sex with the prostitute is consensual, not sexual abuse.

So equating sex abuse in a computer game where it isn't a requirement for the game, but merely the actions of the player, is as close as an analysis of priests abusing children, but it not being part of the church, as you can get.

My original point wasn't ironic. Yours however, is.

Morbert

I never thought I'd be defending the moral content of GTA but..

Festus wrote: »

I love the irony. Doesn't GTA glamorise sex abuse in its third outing?

It glamorises sex (consensual sex with a prostitute) and violence (you can beat everyone up, including prostitutes), but not sexual abuse (you can't sexually assault anyone).

Morbert

Barrington wrote: »

No.

If you're referring to the scandal where you can have sex with a prostitute, then kill her and get the money back, then no. GTA does not glamourise that, as it isn't part of the game. It's something the player chooses to do, not what they are made to do to progress in the game. It is the acctions of the player, not the game.

Well as an aside, the game rewards the player with free health if they do this. I don't think it can be argued that GTA doesn't glamorise that kind of violence.

ISAW

geuro wrote: »

I am someone who was raised catholic, made my confirmation etc, but has since become disinterested in the church. I don't think I will ever go back to it and I don't really care.

Well if you don't care whay are you telling us?

I would prefer not to have my child baptized in a church, which is a pity because my parents would be quite traditional in that regard.

So where then? In a river or lake or the Sea?

Though I never really had a catholic faith,

You are saying you were never really a catholic and have no interest in christianity. then after saying you have opted out of being involved you want those who opt in to do what you want?

the recent Ryan report and the issues with institutional abuse have been the triggers that have made me really turn my back and shut the door on the church.

Nothing to do with the thread topic.

So, when I hear that the numbers are on the rise for Maynooth, the very first thing I think is "What are the steps being taken to make sure this doesn't happen", "What sort of effort is put into the analysis of what has happened in the church", "does the institution at Maynooth treat the topic of abuse as a really important issue", "Are we introducing a new wave of perverts and paedophiles into trusted positions in our society".

1. The numbers were a tiny percentage of child sex offenders ~ about 1 per cent of offenders were priests.

2. Since you opted out you may not be aware of the changes that have happened ( see below)

geuro wrote: »

... I just hope that the church is properly focused on the prevention of abuse in the future

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

...STOP taking new applicants until such time as the fears of people like the poster above are dealt with.
... I hope someone more in the know finds this thread and informs us exactly what, if anything, has been changed in the churches procedures in enrollment, training, and working protocols.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

...
Alas it seems, and I include myself in this, that we are all sitting here saying we hope it is being fixed, or it could be being fixed, or we pray it is being fixed.

I will make a point of writing to the Maynooth college and my local parish to find out exactly IF and HOW it is being fixed.

It has struck me reading this thread that we owe it to ourselves to find out, rather than just push it aside and hope someone else is dealing with it.

...
I have heard some small apologies from the church, and some financial reparations. However not once have I heard them stand up and say where they think they went wrong, how they think they should be in the future, and a road map of how to get from one to the other.

since the third century or so ther have been official condeminations of child sex abuse by the Church.
Parishes have introduced "Child Protection Policies"
Hundreds of millions in compensation has been paid out.
The current expected Bill is over a billion.

Several reports highlight where systems failures occurred and that is why Child Protection Policies (CPP) and other responses have already been made

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

That is an entirely valid way of putting it. At the same time however if children were abused in a school the first thing that the school would be called on to do is put in procedures and protections to ensure it does not re-occur.

The Church is ahead of the state on CPP.

If an injury happens in the workplace the first thing the unions do is demand procedural and environmental changes to ensure the same injury can not happen again.

CPP and other responses already in place. Go to nay parich web site and read them.

I randomly picked this from the Dublin diocese website

http://www.ballinteer.dublindiocese.ie/cpp-0309-notice.htm

But pick any parish from the list here http://www.dublindiocese.ie/

[
I address my comment mainly at ireland, but it is just as valid as the two examples above. More so given that this was relatively widespread and systematic compared to either of my examples. Given what has happened, I want to hear the church say how they felt it happened, how it was allowed to continue and what steps are being taken to ensure it does not happen again.

See above comments on CPP's applied to all of Dublin and no doubt all other Diocese.

geuro wrote: »

People may have been saying that for years, including priests (Brian D'Arcy for example). What reform took place?

CPP's among other things.

I work in an organisation where we constantly try to maintain high standards. If something goes wrong, or a major problem is uncovered, we actively focus on this problem. We brainstorm and come up with solutions for it's resolution. It receives our full attention, and the root cause of the issue is identified and fixed. We don't mumble an apology and take on another bunch of recruits and train them using the old manual.

Nor did the Church.

Biro wrote: »

But there is change. Look at your local parish, find out what alter boys and girls are joining and you'll see that the local priest is not allowed train them up unless there is at least one other adult present. It's the same with every youth club, school, etc, there needs to be more than one adult present.
That's the way it should be, it's equal across the board. You can't really expect a questionaire to be handed out to any new priest, teacher or youth club leader recruit to test if they're a pediophile, it would do no good. The best you can do is check the sex offenders list, and always have childern supervised by more than one adult.
How many people are as vigilant when letting their kids sleep over in their friends houses?

Good points. In fact we know clerics account for about one per cent of abusers. Most abusers are known to the victim and are family members or close friends and not clergy.

gigino wrote: »

but still the statistics show that 5.8% of all boys who were sexually abused were abused by Priests / religous.

Actually no they don't! Where did you get those stats?
You just made that up. You took the proportion of Priests per Catholic in the country and
just made up the 5.8 per cent of abusers are priests.
Please stop lying about the stats when you have been shown the correction.

Also sexual abuse by the one percent of people who offend and are clergy seems to be more weighted in favour of boys than girls.

That's just sexual abuse ; physical abuse percentages are probably higher as many boys got beatings in classrooms, industrial schools etc.

And you are probably also totally wrong about that since I would argue physical abuse was also done more by non clergy. But suppose you produce your stats first?

Morbert wrote: »

The thread is not about what has or has not been done in the Church's name. It is about trends in the number enrolling for priesthood.

Someone with some sense eventually