Dog Dilemma

DEEMAR

Hi there. Just looking for a bit of advice. We have a 1yr old golden cocker (male) who is of good temperament most of the time. However feeding times have proven to be a bit tricky - he becomes aggressive, etc. Anyway I think we have kind of sorted that. The problem is he can become very aggressive suddenly and has attacked and bitten our youngest child (12 yr old). We have made all sorts of excuses for his behaviour and tried all sorts of remedies (including professional advice) but the bottom line that for safety reasons he just has to go. Im reluctant to have him put asleep, but he is definitely a danger to children. Any advice?

Top Dog

Is he neutered?

Does he attack adults too?

Is it just a snap like he's guarding his food?

What exactly have you tried (I know you say professional advice has been sought, but without more detail its hard to know what to suggest).

DEEMAR

No he is not neutered, and yes he has gone for hubby also. Its not just a growl, its full and physical, like tonight he is lying beside the couch and 12yr old comes over near him to sit down and he lounges full at her, very visciously. She backed back and he kept going - only that my husband intervened so quickly, I think it could have been serious. The professional advice was from a qualified dog trainer who could take him on but couldn't guarantee that the problem could be sorted.

star-pants

Neutering is one thing to definitely try, any reason you've not had him neutered before? It does tend to reduce aggression in male dogs. It sounds serious though if he's continuing a threat with your daughter even when she's backed down.

Top Dog

have you taken him to a vet to make sure there's no underlying problem? Sometimes physical or mental illnesses can manifest themselves and show as aggression.

DEEMAR

Yes, Top Dog, we have taken him to the vet recently and as a matter of fact he does have an eye problem, some irritation of the eyes. We are treating it with eye drops at the moment and have to take him back to the vets again. Im not altogether convinced that this is the problem though,- I think our 12 yr old seems to annoy him. Although she is very good with him, i.e. walking him and gives him loads of attention and affection, she does drive him mad at times, particularly late in the evening when he is trying to sleep. One way or the other, we have had our heads in the sand for too long and he has to go. Im too afraid he will do damage to her or some other child that comes to the house. Im not sure if Animal Welfare will take him if he is aggressive, because they may not be able to re-home him. Im doing all this talk this evening, and I bet you by tomorrow I will be making excuses for him again!!!!

Dublinstiofán

Make no more excuses.


Do not post links to films.

Inexile

DEEMAR wrote: »

I think our 12 yr old seems to annoy him. Although she is very good with him, i.e. walking him and gives him loads of attention and affection, she does drive him mad at times, particularly late in the evening when he is trying to sleep.

Is this when the dog is aggressive. Could you provide him with a "time out space" perhaps a crate in another room so that when he wants to sleep he can. I would also suggest monitoring the contact between the dog and the child in case she is inadvertently annoying him and see if the dogs behaviour improves.

star-pants

I can't view that video on phone- what's it about and what's its relevance? Also OP, as suggested already, neutering your dog could make a big improvement, and his own space where he can't be annoyed by your daughter. If you still wish to give him up after that that's fine. Yes you'd had your heads in the sand perhaps but one of the first things people do with dogs they're not breedin is get them done, this reduces aggression in males and prevents them from scaling walls if theres a bitch in heat. I would consider it before giving him up.

kildara

Agree with above who suggest neutering. It calmed our dog down. A little bit!

At one year old your dog is still only a pup so he is still wide open to training.
Dogs, generally, wont attack without reason and without warning. You need to learn your dogs warning signs and step in prior to him lunging at your little girl. He may growl, get his hackles up, arched back, head down etc. Dogs differ so you need to look at your dog in different scenarios to see how he reacts.
Your daughter also needs to know when to step back and give the dog space.

Whispered

Dublinstiofan, how has that got anything to do with anything?

DEEMAR, agressive dogs can be retrained so I don't think this dog should be PTS, at least not until another avenue has been tried. Obviously the dog is a danger to your child and it would be best for you to rehome her to a rescue I think. I do know of one person who takes agressive dogs as well as her usual rescues and brings them into her (all adult) home. If she is made aware of the dogs problems she can try to combat them. I can contact her on your behalf if you like.

However, please don't rehome to any rescue without telling them exactly what the dog is capable of.

Agression is only acceptable in very stressful circumstances and should never ever be shown in the house. It should be completly unacceptable. Your daughter is entitled to walk past the dog, or sit beside the dog or even pet the dog if she feels like it. That is what house dogs are for.

Discostuy

Just to note.
One of my two recently had an eye infection and it made her aggressive.
She never went for me or any other person, but she did become very aggressive with any other dog that came into her space.

I had to keep people away from her just incase, as she became very withdrawn and narky.
I had to leave agility early one of the days as she just was so moody and just didnt want to be there, she had a go at a few dogs while there.

Once while she was sleeping her sister tried to lick her ear and she went off like a bomb...i think it was half because she was asleep to but i jumped in before anything happened.

I reckon there is more underlying issues here, but i reckon the eye infection is making him particulary sensitve and moody.

Since getting codys eye mended, she is back to ger normal good self.

boomerang

Are you in Limerick, OP? (You mention the animal welfare.)

It honestly doesn't sound to me like this is a dog that should be PTS. He is uncomfortable at the moment on account of his eyes; plus you do say that your daughter bothers him when he is trying to sleep. This is enough for the dog to dislike your daughter. He may not be a danger to children - he simply needs a savvy home with someone who knows how to handle him. He could live with children if they knew to respect his space when he is sleeping, eating, etc.
When he bit your 12 year old, did he snap and leave a mark on the skin, or did he actually clamp down with his teeth on the hand/arm/leg and puncture the skin? There is an important distinction between the two.

I work with LAW and we have taken in dogs like yours. Just last week we took in a JRT who hates kids because the children in the family were tormenting him. Guess what? He was very fearful and snappy for the first day or two with us, but now he's a little pet! We'll rehome to an adult-only home. We also have a kind trainer who comes in and works with our dogs that need a little help building their confidence.

We never, ever put a dog to sleep unless it has a grave medical issue that is unlikely to respond to treatment and the dog is suffering. The only other circumstance in which we will put a dog to sleep is if we see that the dog is extremely aggressive and we could not in good conscience safely rehome it. We don't take these decisions lightly and the dog is given every chance with us before we take such a drastic step.

So have a think about giving your dog to LAW for rehoming. It would cost us €100 to have him neutered (and we must neuter every dog before we rehome it) so we do ask for a donation.

Hope this helps

boomerang

Just a few more thoughts on this:

There actually aren't any trainers in Limerick that I would trust to give you good advice should you decide to keep your dog. These guys are in the business of training dogs in obedience - they are not behaviourists!

Definitely you should not make any decisions before speaking to a behaviourist, who will need a lot of information from you on how you all interact with your dog and the exact circumstances that led up to the bite.

The only person I would trust to help you in the mid-west is Beverly Truss, in Ennis.

Please don't rely on any one else's opinion. I would run a mile from most of the trainers in Limerick! :eek: PM me if you want to.

Dublinstiofán

helena.ryan wrote: »

Dublinstiofan, how has that got anything to do with anything?

I think its highly relevant. If the dog has already struck her child and husband. Its only a matter of time before its the OP who is telling the same story as that which is in the video provided.

Just trying to point her in the right direction before its too late. Not what she wants to here but hell there you go, sometimes the truth hurts.

Whispered

ok, but you do know that what happens on TV isn't real? :P

Really, I think that whole scene is supposed to be ironic is it not? Comparing a human being, based on colour, to a bad dog etc. I'm sorry if I've totally missed the point. The sound on my PC is a bit crappy so I may have picked it up totally wrong.

WesternNight

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

I think its highly relevant. If the dog has already struck her child and husband. Its only a matter of time before its the OP who is telling the same story as that which is in the video provided.

Just trying to point her in the right direction before its too late. Not what she wants to here but hell there you go, sometimes the truth hurts.

That was a film. Even if it had happened, there's nothing whatsoever so say that that's guaranteed to happen in all cases.

If I remember correctly from the film...the comparison he was trying to draw was incorrect. He was jumping to conclusions. Much like what seems to be happening here.

Dublinstiofán

Im not jumping to conclusions, the dog has bitten two people in the family.

How they still have the dog is beyond me, leaving the film clip aside.

boomerang

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

the dog has bitten two people in the family.
QUOTE]

Has he though? I think that is something the OP needs to clarify. From what I can gather from her posts, the dog lunges and growls when it feels threatened. She doesn't say explictly if the dog wounded either her husband or her child, and if so, to what extent.

If the dog is gesturing instead of actually biting and breaking the skin, then there's hope as he obviously has bite inhibition and is trying to signal his discomfort to those around him.

Dublinstiofán

DEEMAR wrote: »

Post 1 "aggressive suddenly and has attacked and bitten our youngest child (12 yr old)"

Post 3 "No he is not neutered, and yes he has gone for hubby also"

She says he has bitten the child at least. It wouldn't have been in the house for even an hour after that with me.

WesternNight

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

She says he has bitten the child at least. It wouldn't have been in the house for even an hour after that with me.

Out of interest...where would it have been?

DEEMAR

Thanks to all for you input on this one. I suppose i need to clarify a few issues:

1. Yes the dog has bitten the 12 yr old, once on her hand (and broken skin). On another occasion he bit her on the elbow, but she was wearing a thick sweatshirt, so that took the impact. He lept for her on another occasion and broke a bracelet on her arm. And finally last night he could have done damage if nobody had been in the room with her. My husband was bitten on the hand. In the main, we don't get a 'warning' - he just suddenly attacks and it can be very frightening.

2. Mostly his aggression is towards my daughter, but can also happen where food comes into the scenario. If we hand it to him or put food gradually into the bowl, all is fairly O.K., but if we put the bowl in his 'space' he becomes very tense. However I don't consider this a major problem, lots of dogs are like that, and it can be easy enough to manage.

Dublinstiofan - I watched your video clip, and I must say I soooooo get the point and think it is absolutely relevant. The injury to the child in the clip might be just a movie, but could very easily happen in real life and I am only too aware of the potential, so thanks for that.

The irony of it all is that my 12 year old is crazy about the dog, despite the attacks. You see, we had the same breed of dog for 14 years. He was an absolute gem, and she grew up with him. He died last year (hence getting the new one). We know that we have to sort this problem and have him removed a.s.a.p. - where to is the next question. Boomerang, I am in the Limerick area and may p.m. you to discuss further.

Many thanks again to you all

peasant

you might want to have a look at this
http://members.lycos.co.uk/ragesyndromeinfo/

if only to exclude your dog as a sufferer

spiderdog

golden cockers can also suffer from a thing called `rage syndrome`

fatmammycat

DEEMAR- it sounds like you actually have a dangerous and pretty unstable dog in your home. I would suggest the food aggression is actually part of the over all problem. Without wishing to sound all Dog Whispery, this animal is comfortable attacking two members the household and is claiming an area when food is involved. All of this sounds to me like a dominance issue and if you don't address it someone is very likely to get badly hurt, your poor child being my main concern.
I had a doberman for a long time and when I got him first he had 'major' issues with food and furniture and...well oh my god a host of other problems-you should have see him in a car, crazy.
It took me over six months of constant repetitive re-enforcement of calm yet unbendable rules to break him out of being a potentially very dangerous animal. I had to up his exercise a great deal, I had to make sure every member of my home could feed him and could remove him from a room. He had an issue with a couch that he liked to sprawl on, I bought him a sheepskin bed and no longer allowed him on any furniture. This eliminated his 'ownership' of the couch and allowed him to rest in peace and quiet when he wanted. It also put paid to confrontation with removing him from beds and so on when he didn't want to get down.
All bad behaviour-including growls ( although I know growls are not necessarily a bad sign, with him it was) had to be dealt with immediately.
I socialised him relentlessly until finally he quit reacting to other dogs and strangers as the enemy and I trained him to a really high standard- although a lot of his improved behaviour was down to the sheer amount of energy we burned off in exercise. He was quick to learn too and loved solving things like where I might had hidden a pice of cheese in the garden- honestly that silly game would amuse him a lot. After about six months, this quivering mass of fear and aggression and loopy weird quirks became a calm, slightly aloof, but thoroughly dependable dog and a great ambassador to his breed and I mourned his passing very much.
I'm telling you all this because he was on he cusp of being destroyed when I got him first and it takes REAL commitment to turn around an animal like him. If I had not undertaken it he would have been PTS, but also had the previous owners done something when it flared up first they could have saved the whole sorry mess in the first place. IF you want to keep your dog and your family you are going to have to look hard and honestly at the situation. You cannot make excuses for attacking behaviour, you cannot think for a second only a snap won't escalate to a more serious assualt. You need to think about what situation causes the dog to react. Food is a good place to start.
With my guy I trained him to stay out of the food area until I put his bowl down on the ground and told him he could 'go get it'. Before that he would mill around like a lunatic and roll the eye at anyone who might be near. That one thing alone started to break the manic behaviour a little. The other was a walk at the crack of dawn before feeding. Wake up, put on boots, two miles out and voila, calmer dog. Of course that's not always possible with family life and children, but you've got to do something to burn off that negative energy.
Any way I've waffled enough. I just wanted to share my experience dealing with an aggressive dog and how I overcame it. I wish you all the best and hope you can come out the other side with no more bites.

boomerang

Do PM me if you need to DEEMAR and we'll see how best we can help. There is a lot more information needed and I definitely would not develop a plan of action based on the advice given here because you haven't given sufficient information for anyone to give you good advice. It is very, very rare for a dog not to give out warning signals before escalating to a bite, and it may just be that your family are not adept at reading them.

I'd really need to meet your dog at home with you guys first of all, to see what's causing these reactions and to see if he can be safely rehomed. Whatever you do, please don't go down the road of getting into dominance theory and "demotion" techniques as it will only make things far worse.

http://dogtrainingireland.ie/blog/2008/05/06/is-your-dog-dominant/

He deserves a chance so please don't rush in to having him put to sleep - let's see if he can find a home with another family if it's safe to do so.

fatmammycat

Boomerang, I only offered my experience with what worked with my animal, I wasn't putting forward any 'theory'. The bulk of my success with my dog came from mental stimulation and exercise. But not allowing sitiations I knew caused conflict helped a great deal too. Not all situations are equal not all solutions are viable.

boomerang

Wasn't directed at you, fatmammycat. It's just on any of these threads you usually get a slew of responses from various Caesarites telling the OP to put their dog in its place, which can backfire spectacularly.

fatmammycat

Ah, sorry B, and oh god I know, the wrestling the poor upset dogs to the ground thing makes me ill. As does prong collars and all the rest of that jazz.
Hmm, I am missing my poor old dog now, after writing all that. He was such a great companion. 'Find the cheese' was the most hilarious game ever.:(

justhedog

spiderdog wrote: »

golden cockers can also suffer from a thing called `rage syndrome`

This is true, there are some very bad tempered blood lines in red cockers ( and other colors) . People stop buying red cockers and put the cocker farmers out of bussiness. OP just put the dog painlessly to sleep, He was made like this the day he was an embyro. Dont blame yourself, Blame the breeder.

Whispered

justhedog wrote: »

OP just put the dog painlessly to sleep

please don't do this.

DEEMAR

Thanks again guys for all your help. I understand that we need to be more vigilant with training and excercise, but it not that easy sometimes with work etc. I have calmed down to-day and I suppose that is a bad place to be because complacency leaves room for error. Its a very unfortunate situation, because we really don't want to part with him. He is a very handsome dog - a very curly cocker with a lovely face, and in fairness to him he has a very quiet temperament about 95% of the time. He is OK with people coming in and out of the house. He seems fine even when other children are around,though Im not fine with him around children and usually remove him. Thanks again for all your help. I will keep you posted!

iguana

kildara wrote: »

Agree with above who suggest neutering. It calmed our dog down. A little bit!

The FDA in the US did an extensive study into the effects of neutering on aggressive dogs and it showed that there is absolutely no difference in "dog on human" aggression after neutering. If the dog has established a pattern of aggression neutering will not make a difference as the problem has become behavioural rather than hormonal. Even the reduction of dog on dog aggression is limited once the dog has formed the habit of aggression. I've seen plenty of lazy owners who can't control their dog get it neutered in order to curb aggression, hyperactivity or disobedience and it never works. The problem is their approach to dog ownership not the dogs hormones.

There are two possible reasons for this dog to be aggressive. Either it has a mental problem such as Rage or something is wrong in it's living arrangements. As common as Rage is in golden cockers it is more common that dog aggression is a result of a lack of defined role for the dog in the family.

DEEMAR wrote:

I understand that we need to be more vigilant with training and excercise, but it not that easy sometimes with work etc.

Sorry OP but it doesn't really work like that, if you get a dog you have to commit to meeting it's needs. And along with food and shelter the dog needs training and exercise, you have to make time. Get the dog a crate or set aside a part of your house as his own space. If he goes to the crate/utility room/bed in the corner he is not to disturbed by your daughter. I won't let a toddler annoy my dogs when they blatantly want to be left alone, your daughter must learn to give him space when he needs it.

Even though golden cockers are show dogs rather than working strain, they still come from a dog that needs lots of exercise. As you are in Limerick there are some great places to walk him. Along the canal from Rhebogue to the Shannon is good. All along the Shannon from the Mulcair in Annacotty, through the university and right into Corbally has great walks where the dog can be walked off lead if you are confident of his recall. They are lovely walks and you can enjoy it as much as your dog.

It's also possible that the dog may be confused about his place in the "pecking order" of the family. If your daughter is down on the floor playing with him he may be confused as to whether your daughter is one of the people or one of the dogs. Little things can get this clear in his head. Always feed him last, don't feed him scraps from the table while any other person is still eating. When someone enters the house all the humans should visibly greet each other before before acknowledging the dog. You don't need to be angry with him or be harsh but just subtly let him know that people and dogs are different and he is a dog.

kildara

iguana wrote: »

The FDA in the US did an extensive study into the effects of neutering on aggressive dogs and it showed that there is absolutely no difference in "dog on human" aggression after neutering. If the dog has established a pattern of aggression neutering will not make a difference as the problem has become behavioural rather than hormonal. Even the reduction of dog on dog aggression is limited once the dog has formed the habit of aggression.

Since we neutered our dog there has been an obvious change (for the better) in his aggression towards other dogs. He is a bit reserved with strange people (its his breed), but people aggression was never an issue with him.
Shortly prior to getting him neutered we got another puppy. Maybe the change ahd nothing to do with the castration, maybe it was the socialisation with the new pup, along with us, as owners, learning and training him, which resulted in the change.
But maybe neutering assisted.

iguana wrote: »

I've seen plenty of lazy owners who can't control their dog get it neutered in order to curb aggression, hyperactivity or disobedience and it never works. The problem is their approach to dog ownership not the dogs hormones.

But who’s fault is this? Who tells these people that neutering is the solution to their problems?
Vets do! It seems to be common knowledge that neutered dogs are less aggressive than there intact cousions. Two vets, along with numerous other people (breeder included) told me that neutering would have a beneficial effect on aggression, but, to be fair, there were other people who, like you, said it wouldn’t have any effect. We never intended to breed from our lad so the health benefits of neutering were more a factor in our decision than reducing aggression.
Of the first ten pages when “Why neuter your dog” is googled, eight of these cite less likely to be aggressive as a reason to neuter (one of the other two pages is more about micro-chipping than neutering). It seems that most people disagree with the FDA.

iguana

kildara wrote: »

But who’s fault is this? Who tells these people that neutering is the solution to their problems?
Vets do! It seems to be common knowledge that neutered dogs are less aggressive than there intact cousions. Two vets, along with numerous other people (breeder included) told me that neutering would have a beneficial effect on aggression, but, to be fair, there were other people who, like you, said it wouldn’t have any effect. We never intended to breed from our lad so the health benefits of neutering were more a factor in our decision than reducing aggression.
Of the first ten pages when “Why neuter your dog” is googled, eight of these cite less likely to be aggressive as a reason to neuter (one of the other two pages is more about micro-chipping than neutering). It seems that most people disagree with the FDA.

Because the FDA research is the first comprehensive study ever done on the effects of neutering on dog aggression and temperament. All of the other pages you read are based on assumption rather than science. The assumption is that neutering reduces testosterone and testosterone causes aggression therefore neutering reduces aggression. But it's bad science, a myth propagated by the pro-neutering lobby. In fact a huge amount of those websites also tell people that they shouldn't be worried, neutering won't change their dog's personality. It can only be one or another, if neutering reduces aggression that is a personality change. It's propaganda, and badly thought out propaganda. And it's quite frankly dangerous, as bad owners are led to believe that neutering will save them from having to take proper ownership of their animal.

It doesn't matter how many people state that something is true, if the science doesn't back it up it's not true. Look at how many people told Gallileo that the sun orbited the earth - you can see why people made that assumption - it looks like it does, but ultimately it was bad science. When it comes to science it's not a case of majority rule. Facts are facts. Aggression is caused mainly by social behaviour, if the neutering happens after 1 year there is no reduction of aggression as it's already an established behavioural pattern.

Neither of my dogs are neutered. They are three year old unrelated males and they never fight. They are constantly snuggled around each other. They share their food, each first eating from one bowl and swapping halfway through their meal. They never, ever fight with other dogs. If another dog is aggressive they either return to me, or stand together give a warning bark to let the aggressive dog know they are a unit and then the walk back to me - without me needing to call them. Quite a few of the dogs who have been aggressive toward them have been neutered.

The amount of people, vets and dogs trainers included, who have told me that I would never be able to have two identically aged, same size entire males without them fighting is astonishing. And they have had to re-assess their opinion as time has gone on. My dogs have never, ever had a fight with each other or another dog. Neither is alpha, Dougal leads in certain things, Toby in others, they each know what the other is better at and they let the other take the lead when they know the results will be best for them as a unit. They are like this because this is how I decided they would be and how I raised them. Whether they have testicles and full testosterone production is completely irrelevant to good training, family life and socialisation.

kildara

iguana wrote: »

Because the FDA research is the first comprehensive study ever done ...

If this is the first major study done on this topic, then it is going to be a long, long time before the lay person becomes aware of these findings. There will have to be numerous other studies carried out, on a world-wide scale before general opinions are changed.

Is it really a bad thing though, that people, as you mention, go and get their dogs neutered looking for an easy answer to (possibly self-caused) dog aggression? There are health benefits to neutering and these people probably would not get their dogs neutered for these reasons alone (ignorance or whatever), so it benefits the dogs regardless.
Also, the dogs belonging to people who can't be bothered to research, are (I would think) the animals that would be left roaming the streets. So them being castrated will mean that no unwanted pregnancies occur by their actions.
Its a blissful ignorance really!

Are you anti-nuetering? Do you not agree there are health benefits to neutering?

iguana

kildara wrote: »

Are you anti-nuetering? Do you not agree there are health benefits to neutering?

I'm not anti-neutering but I am opposed to the propaganda that either side produces. My general rule of thumb is if a website gives only one side to an issue it is not being fully truthful. The problem with most pro-neutering information is that it makes people see neutering as a magic panacea which will fix their dog's problems. Or some people specifically get a neutered dog expecting to not have to deal with much of the hard work involved in owning a dog. But it won't fix the dog's social problems and six months after a "problem" dog has been neutered and it is still displaying the same problems the owner gets frustrated and often gives up the dog or reduces exercise which makes things worse. I saw that a LOT in the area I used to live in.

There are benefits related to the prostate, but on the otherhand neutering does damage the dog's coat which if not cared for causes pain in long-haired dogs. And it does make the dog more prone to putting on weight so owners actually need to work harder to keep the dog healthy. Neither is a big problem for good owners who put the time and effort into grooming and exercising their dog. But lazy owners who neuter in order to fix a social problem are not likely to keep up with the extra work this requires.

Neutering stops the dog from reproducing and if that's what you want go for it. It won't stop a male dog from being interested in a bitch in heat and it will roam to follow the scent if it's able to. It won't reduce the dog's interest in the outside world, it won't stop the dog from repeating negative behaviours it has learned. It won't make the dog need less exercise. It does have some health benefits but equally it has health drawbacks. I haven't neutered mine because I chose not to, but I don't disagree with anyone who chooses to do so as long as they aren't expecting miracles which won't happen as the dog could suffer when the owner is disappointed.