Sir Hugh Orde Retires.

FlutterinBantam

Sir Hugh retires this week.

I think we owe a great deal to this man for his foresight, professionalism, impartiality, integrity and honesty.

He improved N/S relations and cleaned up the relationship with the Gárdaí so much so that the shady punters operating around XMG under the guise of "republicans" when in fact they were common criminals had to think twice or shut up shop.

I hope people realise the debt of gratitude we owe this man, and that it will be suitably recognised.

People like that are rare indeed.

LordSutch

Well said

OhNoYouDidn't

Lets see does this naked trolling get closed like the pro-nationalist threads around here recently....

irish_bob

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Sir Hugh retires this week.

I think we owe a great deal to this man for his foresight, professionalism, impartiality, integrity and honesty.

He improved N/S relations and cleaned up the relationship with the Gárdaí so much so that the shady punters operating around XMG under the guise of "republicans" when in fact they were common criminals had to think twice or shut up shop.

I hope people realise the debt of gratitude we owe this man, and that it will be suitably recognised.

People like that are rare indeed.

+1

Sand

Lets see does this naked trolling get closed like the pro-nationalist threads around here recently....

And we're off...

OhNoYouDidn't

Sand wrote: »

And we're off...

I think its a legitmate comment. We will see if the mods get as 'tired' of this thread as quicky as the ten or so threads that had a Republican bias closed this week that are a great deal less provocative....

prinz

I hope the next fella does as good a job tbh. That's all. Well done Hugh, good end to your days.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think its a legitmate comment. We will see if the mods get as 'tired' of this thread as quicky as the ten or so threads that had a Republican bias closed this week that are a great deal less provocative....

What bias is present in the OP, or how is it provocative?

OhNoYouDidn't

prinz wrote: »

What bias is present in the OP, or how is it provocative?

1: Its not political - more suited to the Emergency Services forum

2:A poster who earlier in the day was arguing that the 6 counties are nothing to do with the south saying we owe him a debt. Its hypocritical.

3: His foresight, professionalism, impartiality, integrity and honesty have all been questioned by both sides of the political schism.

4: The idea that he has tackled the South Armagh area's smuggling.

5: Long and the short of it is crime rates in the 6 are through the roof and 'hoods' are out of control. He may not have been the sectarian brute of his predecessors, but levels of every type of criminal activity has increased under his reign while the political policing element was actually expanded.

He did a bad job.

prinz

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

1: Its not political - more suited to the Emergency Services forum...

....He did a bad job.

Why didn't you just post that in the first place instead of crying foul about "naked trolling" provocation, bias, and anti-nationalism.... You're entitled to your opinion, but instead you went off with two posts about moderation in this forum.

sceptre

I'm sure you folks know where comments about moderation go. Go there. Anyone who wants to talk about the substantive matter of the thread can stay here.

Zambia

I liked him he was one of those blokes who just said what he thought. Whenever he was asked a political question he just said that's not my job I'm a policeman.

As for crime rising after living in Belfast I would say no chief constable could reduce it given the slide towards the jobless rate rising.

He was more capable than the politicans he served.I liked him he left big shoes to fill.

tallus

I don't think someone should be hero worshipped just for doing the job he was paid to do.

oscarBravo

tallus wrote: »

I don't think someone should be hero worshipped just for doing the job he was paid to do.

That said, it doesn't hurt to pay tribute to someone who did his job well.

OhNoYouDidn't

oscarBravo wrote: »

That said, it doesn't hurt to pay tribute to someone who did his job well.

If by "did his job well" you mean presided over the police at a time where all crime rates spiked, sectarian violence increased, dissident activity intensified and political policing brought down the assembly, and he was criticised by all sides of the divide then why not pay tribute! :rolleyes:

Or maybe this is a proto-unionist attempt to provoke a reaction.

gurramok

Whats XMG?

His outgoing speech was a reflection of reality, saying intolerance has not been tackled with more peace lines gone up post-peace than pre-peace times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0826/1224253270471.html

Causes of conflict not been tackled
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/politics/stormont-not-addressing-causes-of-conflict-says-orde-1869052.html

Orde wrote:

"There are real issues, social issues that need to be addressed by all communities and all institutions if we are to move on and understand why people just still don't get on in the routine of their daily lives, why we still have segregated communities, why we still have peace walls?

oscarBravo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Or maybe this is a proto-unionist attempt to provoke a reaction.

Breaching the same charter rule for the third time in the same thread after receiving two red cards can only mean one of two things: extreme stupidity, or taking the piss.

I don't think you're stupid, so - on the basis of the latter - banned.

prinz

gurramok wrote: »

Whats XMG?[URL="http://"][/URL]

I thought you knew everything about Northern Ireland, and the rest of us were ill informed? XMG - Crossmaglen area

gurramok

prinz wrote: »

I thought you knew everything about Northern Ireland, and the rest of us were ill informed? XMG - Crossmaglen area

Extremely shocked that you knew

Meet you in 5MT next?.;)

tallus

oscarBravo wrote: »

That said, it doesn't hurt to pay tribute to someone who did his job well.

Agreed, that's a fair comment.

FlutterinBantam

Hmmm, makes one despair a little at the polarisation still evident.

Sir Hugh wasn't perfect,and in fairness he never claimed to be, but he was a huge improvement on what went before and played a big part in guiding the Northern Ireland Police from the RUC to the PSNI which in itself was a task fraught with pitfalls.

I thought that his efforts deserved a bit of a mention, no more or less than that.

I would have expected that people might throw ingrained prejudices aside and acknowledged that.

When we accuse people of bigotry and sectarianism,maybe we need to look a little closer to home.

ardmacha

He improved N/S relations and cleaned up the relationship with the Gárdaí so much so that the shady punters operating around XMG under the guise of "republicans" when in fact they were common criminals had to think twice or shut up shop.

I think Orde was a professional, who operated in a dignified way. However whatever success the PSNI have had against shady punters in XMG, they have done little or nothing to address massive problems of joyriding, antisocial behaviour and burglaries that have come into existence since their formation.

gurramok

Uh oh, new leaked report blasts the PSNI as ineffective against crime http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/8223225.stm

bbc wrote:

An internal police report has delivered a withering critique of the state of policing in Northern Ireland.

It said police were not delivering an effective service and had lost sight of what was important to communities.

The report said officers in districts spend an average of 61% of their time in stations on administrative tasks.

It said the PSNI does not provide "an effective 24-hour policing service" because officers are not deployed when and where needed.

The report, labelled restricted, was intended exclusively for an internal police readership, which probably explains why the language used was so frank.

Senior officers were tasked with drawing up a strategic vision for the PSNI for the next three to five years. They did not pull any punches.

While it may be stating the obvious to say the main objectives of the police are to prevent crime and catch criminals, the report said "there is little evidence of the PSNI having an over-arching crime prevention strategy" and that the organisation appeared to have "insufficient information" on the factors that cause crime.

The review team called for a fresh approach to end the 9-5 culture it said "has developed in the organisation".

Thats a stain on Orde. Looks like Ardmacha was right.

Zambia

gurramok wrote: »

Uh oh, new leaked report blasts the PSNI as ineffective against crime http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/8223225.stm



Thats a stain on Orde. Looks like Ardmacha was right.

It goes on to say the real problem is with the restrictions placed on the PSNI by the society in NI tying them up in admin.

A PSNI member once told me in the history of the PSNI no one has ever been charged with wasting police time, and I have seen some horrific wastes of their time.

I remember he(HO) once said most of the people he reports to would not even get in as a constable due to their records.

FTA69

gurramok wrote: »

Whats XMG?

British military parlance for Crossmaglen.

LordSutch

Formerly known as 'Bandit country' ...............

Fulton Crown

I don't think that anyone can deny that Orde was a "Good Cop" and did a difficult job very well.

A less assured man in that pivotal post would have had disasterous consequences.

We owe him at least recognition for that.

It's no surprise that the lawllessness,banditry and revenue fraud endemic in the SA area would take time to turn around.

Let us be thankfull for progress and recognise a good man for a job well done.

DoireNod

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Sir Hugh retires this week.

I think we owe a great deal to this man for his foresight, professionalism, impartiality, integrity and honesty.

He improved N/S relations and cleaned up the relationship with the Gárdaí so much so that the shady punters operating around XMG under the guise of "republicans" when in fact they were common criminals had to think twice or shut up shop.

I hope people realise the debt of gratitude we owe this man, and that it will be suitably recognised.

People like that are rare indeed.

I don't know if such commendation is merited. He was the head of the PSNI from 2002 to 2009. Fair play to him.

I think statements like '...we owe a great deal to this man for his foresight, professionalism, impartiality, integrity and honesty' and 'I hope people realise the debt of gratitude we owe this man, and that it will be suitably recognised' are extremely hyperbolic. To say that he is 'rare indeed' adds to this.

People have rightly pointed out that certain aspects of policing have changed in the North with the PSNI (although to many they are the same), but to suggest that Hugh Orde is some sort of demi-god is ridiculous.

Fulton Crown

DoireNod wrote: »

People have rightly pointed out that certain aspects of policing have changed in the North with the PSNI (although to many they are the same), but to suggest that Hugh Orde is some sort of demi-god is ridiculous.

I don't think the poster was trying to make a Demi-God of Orde - just suggesting that a difficult job well done deserved some recognition.

Thats all.

DoireNod

Fulton Crown wrote: »

I don't think the poster was trying to make a Demi-God of Orde - just suggesting that a difficult job well done deserved some recognition.

Thats all.

Perhaps I misinterpreted the sentiments expressed - apologies to the OP if that's the case, but the language was very hyperbolic if you ask me.

However, what kind of recognition does Orde's performance merit? It's a bit over the top I feel, to say that he deserves some kind of grandiose national or international recognition for doing his job. Sure, maybe if he was rewarded by the PSNI, but other than that, what is the OP suggesting? It seems that maybe the OP wishes to force some kind of appreciation, but maybe I'm wrong. If people (not just those on boards!) were that concerned, they'd have demanded such recognition by now surely?

DoireNod

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I thought that his efforts deserved a bit of a mention, no more or less than that.

Just seeing this. It's hard to accept that that's what you wanted, judging by the language you used in the OP, but, if that's all you wanted, then ok.

FTA69

Before people start fawning over Hugh Orde and the cops I'd like to post a statement from Relatives For Justice, a group representing the families of those who died as a result of British collusion. In it contains a report of an incident that occurred a week ago, and a bit of background about collusion and the fact Hugh Orde refuses to admit it even occurred.

Relatives for Justice statement concerning the PSNI harassment of one of our Board of Directors Mr. Martin Mallon from County Tyrone



Thursday August 20th 2009



Yesterday one of our members Mr. Martin Mallon, who also sits on our organisations Board of Directors, was stopped while traveling towards the Ballygalwley roundabout by the PSNI and had his car searched, his mobile phone, personal diary, and paperwork relating to his business taken from his car. These personal items have not yet been returned.



A 65 year-old man, Mr. Sherry, who suffers from a heart condition was a passenger in the car with Mr. Mallon. Unidentified PSNI officers also attempted to seize Mr. Sherry's mobile phone but were initially prevented from doing so by Mr. Mallon who remonstrated with them about the stop and search and of Mr. Sherry's medical condition.



Mr. Mallon explained that Mr. Sherry was not well and needed his phone in order to contact his doctor or the hospital should his condition deteriorate. He equally pointed out that the situation and PSNI abuse was adding to Mr. Sherry's stress and anxiety and thus his heart condition.



Mr. Mallon, concerned for the welfare of Mr. Sherry, locked the car and remained inside with Mr. Sherry making a number of calls to alert people as to what was happening. He also called a local solicitor and the Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness MP MLA - both of whom immediately contacted the PSNI including an Assistant Chief Constable to express their complaint and to end the situation.



Nevertheless the PSNI eventually confiscated Mr. Sherry's mobile phone once the they had gained access to the car. It too has yet to be returned.



Mr. Sherry was last night admitted to Craigavon Hospital by ambulance as a direct result of yesterday's incident. And was released at 3pm this afternoon. He is currently being administered increased medication.



Relatives for Justice has been supporting the Mallon family throughout a number of landmark legal battles concerning a loyalist attack on the family home on May 8th 1994 which injured Mrs. Mallon and killed 76 year-old Rosanne Mallon.



Prior to the attack in May 1994 Mr. Mallon was subjected to a concentrated campaign of harassment and threats by members of the RUC. RUC Special members, who are known to the family and RFJ, issued death threats three weeks before the attack in which they threatened to have Mr. Mallon's wife killed.



On this particular occasion Mr. Mallon was accosted on an isolated road and held for almost one hour by two armed members of Special Branch. During this detention two leading loyalists arrived, chatted with the armed Special Branch men, and then drove alongside Mr. Mallon's parked car - they shouted abuse at Mr. Mallon and they also issued death threats against Mr. Mallon's wife. One of those loyalists was Billy Wright.



At the time RFJ documented the incident with Amnesty International and a lawyer.



Subsequent to the attack on the Mallon home and the killing of Roseanne a local farmer uncovered a covert unit of the British army secreted into a dug-out in a field overlooking the Mallon home. Within fifteen minutes of being detected the area was sealed off, people were evacuated on the bogus claim that there was a bomb, and two helicopters arrived and collected the covert unit. In their haste they left behind a number of surveillance cameras.



Through a series of legal actions in which the family sued the British MoD the Mallon's won discovery of statements from a number of covert soldiers who stated that they had been there prior to and during the attack. In their statement they say that they transmitted live televised images via their cameras to a room at Mahon Barracks Portadown which was recorded.



They also say in their statements that prior to the attack they were ordered to 'switch off' their cameras and that on later observing the attack and reporting it were ordered 'not to react'. No one was ever held to account for the attack and murder. The RUC attempted to deter a number of witnesses who saw suspicious activity prior to the attack including two young school boys. Local people, and not the RUC, located the burnt out vehicle used by the killers. Initially the RUC claimed that this was not the vehicle but later retracted the claim.



The Mallon family have attended over 20 preliminary hearings concerning having an inquest into the killing. Former Coroner, Rodger McLarnon, cited that if the case had to have been in England then it would have required an inquiry but instead he was faced with limited resources on a part-time basis to hear a very complex case. His attempts to have the British MoD and the PSNI provide information were to no avail.



A reshuffle of the Coroner's Service saw the case being referred to a High Court judge, Justice Weir, who recently requested that the PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde provide him with material in police possession concerning the killing and the overall covert operation that witnessed the murder of Roseanne. Hugh Orde has refused to assist the Coroner and has indicated his willingness to use gagging orders in the form of 'Public Interest Immunity'.



It was this latest move by Hugh Orde that prompted the family in recent weeks to speak to the media expressing their concerns and objections to Hugh Orde's refusal to assist in preventing the truth form emerging concerning the murder. The family have rightly pointed out that Hugh Orde is continuing with an old and failed agenda of the RUC in this regard despite his claim that there is a new beginning to policing. In terms of the PSNI's approach to controversial killings that implicate the RUC in colluding with loyalists there is no evidence that anything has changed and thus in this particular area of policing there is absolutely no change.



It is our firmly held belief that in publicly conveying this message Mr. Mallon has been singled out for harassment by the PSNI. It is a method that harks back to the days of the RUC and which eventually led to the attack on the Mallon home. It is equally about deterring those families within this immediate community from pursuing truth and justice concerning the murders of their loved ones in similar circumstances. This form of political policing has no place within our society and must be condemned by everyone.



This harassment is driven by the will of those in authority who fear the true extent of what occurred on May 8th 1994, and more importantly exactly who incited, organized and directed those who killed Roseanne Mallon, - their will is to seek to silence Mr. Mallon. These attempts will fail.



Mr. Mallon is highly respected member of the local community making major contributions in terms of employment, GAA, charities and through his charitable work within Relatives for Justice in supporting families bereaved during the conflict. The wider community will determine for themselves precisely what the authorities are up to. The Mallon family will continue to pursue the truth including challenging Hugh Orde and his successor should he continue to withhold the truth. Relatives for Justice will also continue to support the Mallon and other families also seeking truth.ENDS

FTA69

Camelot wrote: »

Formerly known as 'Bandit country' ...............

Only if you were one of the arseholes stationed there, to normal Irish people it was always simply South Armagh.

prinz

FTA69 wrote: »

Only if you were one of the arseholes stationed there, to normal Irish people it was always simply South Armagh.

Always known as Bandit Country where I'm from, and no, I was never stationed there.

FlutterinBantam

prinz wrote: »

Always known as Bandit Country where I'm from, and no, I was never stationed there.

yeah, me too, Bandit Country that's what it was known as.

Don't have any links to it but definitely known as that.

Must be some reason why it got that reputation.

Sir Hugh was up against it there sure enough,but in time I suppose people like The Slab and his cohorts will be reeled in.

Difficult area to police I would imagine, given the vested interest in smuggling and lawlessness.

Rebelheart

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

yeah, me too, Bandit Country that's what it was known as.

Don't have any links to it but definitely known as that.

Yeah, and the Irish were "definitely known" as ... where do I start ... "wilde savage Irishe" ... "barbarous wretches" ... "lacking in all civility" ....

Not forgetting those many absolute gems from Arthur Chichester (1563-1625) about the entire problem with the Irish being their love of liberty.

Because the people attempting to assert British control in Ireland claimed it, I guess that makes it true. It is absolutely amazing, and consistently so, how the people who deem themselves to be historically informed reject the myths of Irish nationalism and replace them with the myths of British nationalism which underpin British rule here. There is nothing, and I do mean nothing, enlightened, educated or open-minded about that exchange.

Kalashnikov_Kid

People shout 'Bandit Country' at me when I tell them where I'm from, even though I'm not from South Armagh.

So if thats alright for people here, I'll shout 'Scumbag Country' every time I bump into any Dub that lives north of the Liffey - even if they live with mammy in Castleknock - sure thats the reputation like.

I fail to see the difference in using either term - in my view they're both equally derogatory.

MrMicra

Fulton Crown wrote: »

I don't think that anyone can deny that Orde was a "Good Cop" and did a difficult job very well.

The evidence presented in this thread suggests that while he may well have been a good cop he did a difficult job rather badly. He put himself forward for the job (which is very well paid) and a bare competence is the minimum to be expected.

MrMicra

Fulton Crown wrote: »

I don't think the poster was trying to make a Demi-God of Orde - just suggesting that a difficult job well done deserved some recognition.

Thats all.

The poster was spouting platitudes and had given no consideration at all to any objective assessment of Hugh Orde's performance.
Why is it a difficult job well done. It looks to me like a difficult job done badly. On the other hand it might actually be an impossible job.

FlutterinBantam

You are missing the point.

Sir Hugh oversaw the transition of the RUC to the PSNI and changed the mindset and mores of a force so that it could be accessed by all persuasions.

There are of course sever micro management issues and on the ground events to be ironed out and there is a ways to go, but on the macro deliniar issues he punched through the agreed policies.

FTA69

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

yeah, me too, Bandit Country that's what it was known as.

Must be some reason why it got that reputation.

It was given that moniker as a result of the process of character assasination that took place during the conflict, the same way the people of West Belfast were blackened, or the people of Tyrone derided when they elected Bobby Sands; South Armagh was branded as Bandit Country. The only bandits in South Armagh were the ones running around with SA80s, the same bandits who for years occupied the corner of Crossmaglen's GAA ground and landed their helicopters in the pitch in order to disrupt games. The reason it got that "reputation" was because they ran the Brits ragged there, and nothing more.

prinz

FTA69 wrote: »

Only if you were one of the arseholes stationed there, to normal Irish people it was always simply South Armagh.

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

People shout 'Bandit Country' at me when I tell them where I'm from, even though I'm not from South Armagh.

So again as much as some people would like to claim a distorted reality as truth, I think we can see here that in actual fact the term "bandit country" is in widespread usage, and not confined to those "stationed there". Shock horror. What next, Cork is only known as the "Rebel County" by west-brits and kevin myers?

Kalashnikov_Kid

prinz wrote: »

So again as much as some people would like to claim a distorted reality as truth, I think we can see here that in actual fact the term "bandit country" is in widespread usage, and not confined to those "stationed there". Shock horror. What next, Cork is only known as the "Rebel County" by west-brits and kevin myers?

I did not dispute the above. My point was that people tend to use it in a derogatory manner towards me that I find offensive. You're not really trying to compare that to the "Rebel County" are you? - nothing more than a GAA nickname in real terms - you dont hear Armagh shouting 'up the Bandits!' do you?!

Just because the term is in widespread use makes it right. "nigger" is used widely as a term. Should we bandy that one around too?

MrMicra

The term is in widespread use. I don't think the British Army meant it in a disparaging way more an admiring way, but they did use it to justify shoot to kill and the intense militarisation of the area.

The problem is that if a person from South Armagh complains someone else will roll their eyes and think 'Bandit Country what do you expect.' That said there has been alot of normalisation even in South Armagh and the desire of former IRA men to rely on the local Omerta to cover up criminality is on the way out. Though the willingness to go to the police the Quinn murder is exceptional and not something you find wrt cigarette smuggling or diesel washing.

Diesel washing should be hammered by the way it is massively polluting and not a victimless crime at all.

What is there to smuggle nowadays by the way?

prinz

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

I did not dispute the above. My point was that people tend to use it in a derogatory manner towards me that I find offensive....

MrMicra wrote: »

The term is in widespread use.

Exactly my point. Some of the more sensitive souls posting here like to indulge in an alternate reality where "bandit country" was used...

Only if you were one of the arseholes stationed there, to normal Irish people it was always simply South Armagh

.

Which is obviously false.

Kalashnikov_Kid

MrMicra wrote: »

Diesel washing should be hammered by the way it is massively polluting and not a victimless crime at all.

What is there to smuggle nowadays by the way?

Cigarettes, fireworks, counterfeit goods (there was a bust in a Drogheda market recently which could have been related to the area).

Yeah yeah I know what people are gonna say next....my point stands.

Is Stab City legitimate? Why not just say Limerick? Same goes for S.Armagh. Rub it in if it makes you feel smug, but do you guys not see the offense these terms cause and its consequences no?

prinz

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

Is Stab City legitimate? Why not just say Limerick? Same goes for S.Armagh. Rub it in if it makes you feel smug, but do you guys not see the offense these terms cause and its consequences no?

Smugness has nothing to do with anything. Fact does. I'm sorry if terms like "bandit country" cause offence, I am sure there are some people offended by the terms culchie, or jackeen, or stab city etc. Does that mean they all have to be erased from the Hiberno-English vocabulary. Yes the term is widespread, regardless of it's effect or connotations.

Kalashnikov_Kid

prinz wrote: »

Smugness has nothing to do with anything. Fact does. I'm sorry if terms like "bandit country" cause offence, I am sure there are some people offended by the terms culchie, or jackeen, or stab city etc. Does that mean they all have to be erased from the Hiberno-English vocabulary. Yes the term is widespread, regardless of it's effect or connotations.

Fair enough. I for one would always think twice in chucking such terms around in public - maybe internet fora are a different story. It would be nice if more people showed such courtesy.

LordSutch

Interesting collection of flags :rolleyes:



I think Sir Hugh Ord did a sterling job during his tenure as Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. He tried despirately to introduce a non sectarian climate into the Police force, he spoke to all & sundry from sides, and from all backgrounds (ex Provo's inc), he spoke well in front of the cameras, he was by all accounts liked by his colleagues too, he also got on very well with the Garda in the South > and he was liked/ loathed in equal amounts by both sides of the equation (which is always a good sign).

All in all I think Sir Hugh did a good job in taking Policing in the North to a more 'normal' level, & hopefully his successor will continue to build on his good work in normalising & harmonising Policing in Northern Ireland.

Kalashnikov_Kid

Camelot wrote: »

Interesting collection of flags :rolleyes:

Maybe you could stick up a Union Jack and an Isreali flag for a bit of equal measure. Actually how about you just stick me on your ignore list and they wont bother you anymore. I have done likewise. Thanks for making this decision easy for me.

FlutterinBantam

It's amazing how some people cannot understand the contrary point of view.

Sir Hugh did a lot to embrace the nationalist fears and problems.

His tenure is all the more laudable,considering the polarisation of views even on fora like this.

It would sometimes appear that people like to feel oppressed as it gives them a quasi license to cheat the "State".

Interesting views indeed.

sceptre

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

Actually how about you just stick me on your ignore list and they wont bother you anymore. I have done likewise. Thanks for making this decision easy for me.

I don't particularly care about the contents of your ignore list but don't waste the world's time by telling everyone you're putting another member on ignore, just do it if you feel like it and have shut of it.

/mod