medical education ireland vs UK + USA

imported_guy

hi im just starting this thread to see the views of people, who know about the medical education systems of different countries and what they think would be the best way to educate/produce doctors

first of all

i dont like the LC/points system, alot of people in ireland go into medicine for the wrong reasons, like i asked a few leaving cert people who had put down medicine in the CAO and got these replies genrally "ugghh i want to be GP?" or "it pays alot of money, and i worked hard just so i can get medicine", "My dad's a doctor, hes doing pretty good"

im guessing, if they were interviewed for an american college like john hopkins or harvard med, they will be shown the door and asked to do everyone a favor not become a doctor

in america, usually people with a high grades in college (3.5+ GPA with a high 20s MCAT) get called in for an interview and only a handful get in, most who go to like john hopkins and harvard have perfect 4.0s and 99th percentile MCATs, but then again there are people who get 2.5s and okayish MCAT (low 20s maybe) and do a damn good interview/essay and get a place...

the only thing i dont like about the american medical education is probably that its only graduate education, i do support it in some ways though, like the sutdents will know that MEDICINE is what they WANT to do, and will be very dedicated.

even in america, alot of people have been refused entery even with 4.0 GPAs, because they couldnt say anything in their interview, or didnt have the right motives (thats like saying a 600 point person in LC, "sorry you cant do medicine")

and that is pretty much the same in UK, you need to take UKCAT, and atleast AAB in a-levels, and then in most cases you need to do an interview.

this is what i dont get, why do they let anyone with 550 odd points into medicine, without an interview or an essay?, the 550 points doesnt tell us their motives of becoming a doctor, or how dedicated they will be.

PhysiologyRocks

Even if their reason were purely financial, they would surely have the intelligence to lie in an interview. Therefore, they would not be kept out and many who cared enough to work hard and get in could potentially be excluded.

Piste

Because Ireland is far too small and it would end up being who you know that gets you into college: "ah sure your Ned's little boy arent you? Gosh I havent seen you in years!"

imported_guy

Piste wrote: »

Because Ireland is far too small and it would end up being who you know that gets you into college: "ah sure your Ned's little boy arent you? Gosh I havent seen you in years!"

that happens everywhere, it takes alot more than 4.0GPA to get into harvard/john hopkins/M.I.T/stanford, most of the kids who get in, their parents are million/billionaires and give alot of "donations" to the schools just so their kids have a better chance to get in, or alot of them know some senator/representative/professor/admin, who puts a good word in... but then again, this is a small portion of the population

Carsinian Thau

imported_guy wrote: »

that happens everywhere, it takes alot more than 4.0GPA to get into harvard/john hopkins/M.I.T/stanford, most of the kids who get in, their parents are million/billionaires and give alot of "donations" to the schools just so their kids have a better chance to get in, or alot of them know some senator/representative/professor/admin, who puts a good word in... but then again, this is a small portion of the population

But Ireland is small enough so that your "small portion of the population" could amount to a very substantial number here.

imported_guy

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

But Ireland is small enough so that your "small portion of the population" could amount to a very substantial number here.

not really.... lol we have alot less colleges, and the % of millionaires per capita is ALOT smaller than what it is in america, i dont get your logic.


edit. heres the figures

ireland population = 4.1mill, number of millionaires 33000
america 304 mill, number of millionaires = 7.5 mill

ireland, 1 out of every 125 people is a millionaire
america, 1 out of every 40...

Carsinian Thau

imported_guy wrote: »

not really.... lol we have alot less colleges, and the % of millionaires per capita is probably close to/smaller than what it is in america, i dont get your logic.

That's just it. We have a lot less colleges so that would imply that the buying of medical school places would cause the number of bought places to outweigh the number of earned medschool places.

imported_guy

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

That's just it. We have a lot less colleges so that would imply that the buying of medical school places would cause the number of bought places to outweigh the number of earned medschool places.

i just clarified what i said read the edit xD, my bad sorry, what i mean is we have less colleges, less millionaires, less government people, less professors, less population, so everything blances out your logic i no comprende.

A Neurotic

Would it really be that hard to implement an impartial system? Couldn't we use panels to assess anonymous candidates? Is that unrealistic?

bleh1234

I think it would be very difficult to have impartial panels. The medical community in Ireland is very small it would be next to impossible for children of doctors to interview annonymously & I believe that if interviews are part of the process the panel must include doctors. There are problems with the leaving cert/ HPAT but good thing with the Leaving Cert is it is graded annonymously.

If I were to determine entry requirements I would base it on leaving cert points however they would come from first time sitting and be based on grades from 2 science subjects, English, maths, a language, and a business or arts subject. My reasoning being that the lc is designed to test skills from a broad educational base.

Carsinian Thau

imported_guy wrote: »

i just clarified what i said read the edit xD, my bad sorry, what i mean is we have less colleges, less millionaires, less government people, less professors, less population, so everything blances out your logic i no comprende.

But you wouldn't need to be a millionaire to buy yourself a place in medschool.
Doctor's children or the children of other very important people in the college would have a significant advantage.

I may not be explaining myself very well. But I'm fairly tired so I'll just leave what I've typed the way I've typed it.

Carsinian Thau

bleh1234 wrote: »

If I were to determine entry requirements I would base it on leaving cert points however they would come from first time sitting and be based on grades from 2 science subjects, English, maths, a language, and a business or arts subject. My reasoning being that the lc is designed to test skills from a broad educational base.

Could I ask what would happen to people like me, who studied the three sciences and didn't really want to have to go through a business or arts subject because we'd find them too boring?

imported_guy

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

But you wouldn't need to be a millionaire to buy yourself a place in medschool.
Doctor's children or the children of other very important people in the college would have a significant advantage.

I may not be explaining myself very well. But I'm fairly tired so I'll just leave what I've typed the way I've typed it.

your talking about PERCENTAGE of population that can get places in medschool, by influence, which would be the same in america and ireland IT WONT MATTER IF IRELAND IS A SMALLER COUNTRY, we have less doctors/less children as well... so it all balances out, thats what im trying to say...

and its difficult to have an impartial panel but not impossible, they can come over from UK/australia/canada/america/the world, or they can be like the jury in a court room..

Chunky Monkey

PhysiologyRocks wrote: »

Even if their reason were purely financial, they would surely have the intelligence to lie in an interview. Therefore, they would not be kept out and many who cared enough to work hard and get in could potentially be excluded.

Not necessarily. I know people who had 4 A grades at A levels predicted and didn't get offered places. Apparently that kind of situation isn't so uncommon in the UK.

Carsinian Thau

imported_guy wrote: »

your talking about PERCENTAGE of population that can get places in medschool, by influence, which would be the same in america and ireland IT WONT MATTER IF IRELAND IS A SMALLER COUNTRY, we have less doctors/less children as well... so it all balances out, thats what im trying to say...

Ok. I think I understand what you're saying now.


But at the moment, under the current system (and under the old one too) no-one could get in on influence alone. In fact, influence paid no part at all in it.

So surely that would make it better than a system which would be similar to the American system.


If I've missed the point again, sorry.

imported_guy

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Ok. I think I understand what you're saying now.


But at the moment, under the current system (and under the old one too) no-one could get in on influence alone. In fact, influence paid no part at all in it.

So surely that would make it better than a system which would be similar to the American system.


If I've missed the point again, sorry.

oh no your on the ball now, the current system totally rules out curruption, which is good, but the other system has one or two other major advantages like

- how dedicated the person will be to actully being a good doctor
- what their motives are (there are easier ways to get rich...)
- how familiar they are with their subject choice (im doing mechanical engineering, and i thought i'd be learning how an F1 car works :< but its just like getting a 4 year math degree... and then i'll do GEM)


here are the sample interview questions which are miles better than my examples LOL

http://web.mit.edu/career/www/preprof/pminterviewquestions.pdf

Why do you want to be a doctor?
What are your specific goals in medicine?
What do you think about HMO’s and the changes taking place in medicine?
What stimulated your interest in medicine?
What do you think about euthanasia?
Why do you think so many people want to be doctors?
Do you think a physician should tell a patient he/she has eight months to live?
There are 1,000 applicants as qualified as you. Why should we pick you? hits the nail on securing entry
What do you think is the most pressing issue in medicine today?

i wouldnt be surprised if half of the LC applicants went "durr i dont know?" if they got a surprise interview

PhysiologyRocks

Then the people who got in would be those who just told people what they wanted to hear.

Carsinian Thau

PhysiologyRocks wrote: »

Then the people who got in would be those who just told people what they wanted to hear.

Honestly, that is exactly what I think would happen as well.

PhysiologyRocks

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Honestly, that is exactly what I think would happen as well.

And that is hardly a quality you'd want in your doctor.

Piste

Yeah to be honest, most people with a bit of cop on can see exactly what they're supposed to say, no matter what their motives.

imported_guy

well im not saying it should only be based on the interview, that would be retarded, but im just saying it should play a sizeable role, maybe like 10% of the decision should be on an interview, 10% on an essay, 10% on work exp in medical field, and maybe 10% should come from recomendation from crediable sources, and 60% should come from past results

PhysiologyRocks

Even then, experience is easier to get for people with doctors in the family, I don't see how an essay helps and my point about the interview stands. Anybody will find somebody to recommend them.

I suppose the addition of all that hassle might demonstrate persistence, but no more than exam results can.

imported_guy

PhysiologyRocks wrote: »

Even then, experience is easier to get for people with doctors in the family, I don't see how an essay helps and my point about the interview stands. Anybody will find somebody to recommend them.

I suppose the addition of all that hassle might demonstrate persistence, but no more than exam results can.

HPAT/LC has its draw backs too, for many med students its not a matter of how smart they are its a matter of how many times they repeated LC, or which grind school they went to, ive heard over 40%-50% of people who get medicine get it on their 2nd or even 3rd bash at the LC, i would go as far as to say if repeat LC'ers were barred last year from taking medicine, the points would have barely crossed 500...

PhysiologyRocks

I agree that it has its faults. Still, repeating demonstrates an ability to apply oneself, and improve also. It allows for an unlucky exam day, and being ill. For the record, I didn't repeat.

The grind school thing is not exactly as fair as it gets, but I don't see a better way either.

imported_guy

PhysiologyRocks wrote: »

I agree that it has its faults. Still, repeating demonstrates an ability to apply oneself, and improve also. It allows for an unlucky exam day, and being ill. For the record, I didn't repeat.

The grind school thing is not exactly as fair as it gets, but I don't see a better way either.

in an interview you would probably be able to explain your grades or the lack of, and usully its the people that are ill or have unforseen circumstances that get in with lower grades, and you wont be "wasting" a year, but i agree there are shortfalls within both systems

PhysiologyRocks

Anybody can say they were ill, and a doctor's cert beats an interview there. What if a paper just went wrong. Doesn't sound like a valid excuse, but it can be. It happened to me in English, but thankfully I had the points anyway.

I do see your point, though. I just don't see a real way of improving the old system, despite the existence of many ways to change it.

imported_guy

PhysiologyRocks wrote: »

Anybody can say they were ill, and a doctor's cert beats an interview there. What if a paper just went wrong. Doesn't sound like a valid excuse, but it can be. It happened to me in English, but thankfully I had the points anyway.

I do see your point, though. I just don't see a real way of improving the old system, despite the existence of many ways to change it.

yeah thats true (you'll have to show a cert or something to make sure youre not lying), but most countries, even in europe seem to have interviews to support the results etc, and some countries like pakistan (im from there), have an entrance test for each college, they are pretty much at LC level, but require you to know all 3 sciences a fair bit, math, english, and a bit of social studies/puzzle-ish stuff (i dont know about the HPAT, but its kind of more detailed GAMSAT) and AFAIK you need a certain grade to be able to sit the entry test and its different for each college, seats are given away on merit and if your in like the bottom 50% of the candidates some of you get called in for an interview and they usually hand pick the last 50%

ronbyrne2005

External interviewers could be brought in easly from UK. System has to change. Plenty of people get into medicine through years of cramming and havent a true apptitude for the career and many who get less than 550points and would be excellent doctors miss out. The artifical restrictions on numbers here is ridiculous and keep points so high. If someone got an A in physics, Chemistry and Biology and maths and lowish grades in languages and other subjects they sit they miss medicine despite hbeing an excellent scientist and communicator.

Boethius

imported_guy wrote: »

- how familiar they are with their subject choice (im doing mechanical engineering, and i thought i'd be learning how an F1 car works :< but its just like getting a 4 year math degree... and then i'll do GEM)

You are learning how an F1 car works.......maths:)

Chunky Monkey

Group interviews ftw. Especially for PBL style courses.

Went to two of these for nursing in London. Was very interesting to see what it brought out in people.

Perhaps for medicine there should be a combination of both group and single interview. That may seem like a lot of hassle but there needs to be with such high competition for places.

ergo

for something like medicine in a small country like Ireland entry interviews will just lead to the kind of nepotism that's already there (in some cases) higher up the medical career ladder

also, for interviews there will be grind schools/interview prep courses that people will feel the need to do to get the edge on their competitors - again further advantaging those who can afford this

people will prepare for interviews/have personal statements ready etc and it can be easy enough to predict difficult interview questions or scenarios - therefore more difficult to say who is really the "beter candidate" or going to be the "better" doctor- I think it's worth giving the current new system a go

bleh1234

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Could I ask what would happen to people like me, who studied the three sciences and didn't really want to have to go through a business or arts subject because we'd find them too boring?

I don't think it's the idealy system but if the aim of the leaving cert is to give students a broad educational experience I think we should ensure students take a broad range of subjects. If we had an education system like the UK where students focussed on 3-4 A levels then all science is fince. However I don't think that people should be allowed take 8 & 9 subjects so they can exclude english, maths etc from the subjects counted for points.

imported_guy

bleh1234 wrote: »

I don't think it's the idealy system but if the aim of the leaving cert is to give students a broad educational experience I think we should ensure students take a broad range of subjects. If we had an education system like the UK where students focussed on 3-4 A levels then all science is fince. However I don't think that people should be allowed take 8 & 9 subjects so they can exclude english, maths etc from the subjects counted for points.

this is exactly what needs to be stopped, take a look at hewitt college (grind school in cork)

they have a 3 year LC course/plan

they study the oridnary courses(lets say they r doing ord math/english w/e) they'll study all their subjects in 1st and 2nd yr, and just do the exams in end of their 2nd year (try and pass the ordinary level ones), and then just revise their honours subjects for final year...

if this was the same in every school, i'd say we would have alot less people scoring 300 points, and if your going to go with the points system, id say we should not allow repeat students into medicine, or else arrange interviews for the lower teir people (guys who missed out on it by a few points)

ergo

bleh1234 wrote: »

However I don't think that people should be allowed take 8 & 9 subjects so they can exclude english, maths etc from the subjects counted for points.

if someone gets the minimum requirements for entry into a course passes those exams and does extra well in other subjects to make up the points then I don't see where the problem is

imported_guy wrote: »

this is exactly what needs to be stopped, take a look at hewitt college (grind school in cork)

they have a 3 year LC course/plan

they study the oridnary courses(lets say they r doing ord math/english w/e) they'll study all their subjects in 1st and 2nd yr, and just do the exams in end of their 2nd year (try and pass the ordinary level ones), and then just revise their honours subjects for final year...

if this was the same in every school, i'd say we would have alot less people scoring 300 points, and if your going to go with the points system, id say we should not allow repeat students into medicine, or else arrange interviews for the lower teir people (guys who missed out on it by a few points)

I think the pre-planned 3 year Leaving cert is just wrong

not considering repeat LC's would just put even more pressure on them during their one chance at the LC

only counting points and entry requirments from one Leaving Cert sitting is the way forward I reckon

and why interviews for someone who missed out by a few points ? - I am 100% against interviews for entry to Med for reasons mentioned above

Carsinian Thau

ergo wrote: »

if someone gets the minimum requirements for entry into a course passes those exams and does extra well in other subjects to make up the points then I don't see where the problem is

+1

bleh1234 wrote: »

I don't think it's the idealy system but if the aim of the leaving cert is to give students a broad educational experience I think we should ensure students take a broad range of subjects. If we had an education system like the UK where students focussed on 3-4 A levels then all science is fince. However I don't think that people should be allowed take 8 & 9 subjects so they can exclude english, maths etc from the subjects counted for points.

I passed all of my matriculation requirements in one year. I took all my subjects at higher level but I still had a very science based LC. My LC wasn't very general (no business or humanities beyond minimum requirements) but seeing as I plan on a scientific career, I don't see the problem with that.

drzhivago

A Neurotic wrote: »

Would it really be that hard to implement an impartial system? Couldn't we use panels to assess anonymous candidates? Is that unrealistic?

totally unrealistic unless you import the panel from USA or UK to here and even then!!!