HPAT Vs The Leaving Cert. Posts moved from LC results thread

bleg

<moderator note. I've moved a load of threads from the leaving cert thread into this new thread, as we were going off on a tangent discussing the merits of the HPAT. Tallaght01>

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/high-achievers-doctor-dreams-dashed-over-aptitude-test-score-1861720.html

dudara

bleg wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/high-achievers-doctor-dreams-dashed-over-aptitude-test-score-1861720.html

Interesting article - given that I'm not in the field of medicine, do other posters think that the aptitude test is a good thing?

TBH - I'd like to have a doctor that did honours maths - it does show a bit more logical thought or do others think that I am being a bit elitist here?

I should add that when I did my Leaving Cert in 1996, one of my neighbours got medicine and she is straight out one of the dumbest people I've ever met. Points are in no way an indication of someone's ability. But on the other hand, I know people who got great Leavings and were going to make great doctors too.

bleg

Ah you're always going to have these sob stories. I do feel sorry for her to be honest. However if you don't make the cut you don't make the cut. Tough luck. There are thousands more who didn't get medicine who also won't get their 2nd, 3rd or 4th choices.


Imagine how ecstatic the person that got 530 points and got accepted is!

tallaght01

I agree with you, dudara, to an extent. I think there's a cutoff. I didn't do honours maths, but I get by.

Having said that, the real brainiacs at med school do make the best docs by and large.

The guy who won the gold medal in my year is phenomenal. I've worked with him and he blew everyone out of the water. I worked with another guy who won the gold at oxford. Again, far and away better than the rest of us. I could go on.

People say stuff like "they have no personality" etc, to make themselves feel better, which is just not true. These super clever guys have the same distribution of nice behaviour as the rest of us.

The guy who cardioverted me last week is a super brainy mofo. Total egghead. When yo're lying there about to have 120 joules of electricity pumped through your chest, you want a brainy fecker doing it :P

bythewoods

I'm actually really happy the HPAT's in place as well. Although I did a fair bit of complaining about it.
Don't think I'd have gotten Medicine without it at'all.
Got 550 last year and only increased to 565 this year, so I'd never have gotten UCD with either of those...

That girl's story is pretty bad tbh, she obviously worked really hard for Medicine. There's always repeating the HPAT though...

Piste

I hate the HPAT, the only difference it made to me getting medicine is that I got my 3rd choice of college. Without the HPAT I could have done any med course I wanted, so I just thought it was restricting.

tallaght01

bythewoods wrote: »

I'm actually really happy the HPAT's in place as well. Although I did a fair bit of complaining about it.
Don't think I'd have gotten Medicine without it at'all.
Got 550 last year and only increased to 565 this year, so I'd never have gotten UCD with either of those...

That girl's story is pretty bad tbh, she obviously worked really hard for Medicine. There's always repeating the HPAT though...

Have we got any evidence the HPAT produces the type of docs they say it does?

I think the profession is shooting itself in the foot big time by not letting in students with 600 points.

Larianne

"I think HPAT is a bit unfair. I just don't think it is a good assessment of what a good doctor you are going to be." But if you get 600 points in the leaving should you not then get a good result in the HPAT or was she like one of many who just learn off essays etc. ?

I still believe it should all be done like in the UK with personal statements and work experience etc.

Why did they decide to bring the HPAT in here anyway? Uni of Ulster uses it but no other UK college.

I got into Physio this year after years of wanting to do it and getting rejected last year. I cried and then danced around like a loon.

ZorbaTehZ

Larianne wrote: »

I still believe it should all be done like in the UK with personal statements and work experience etc.

+1.

As far as I'm concerned there are always going to be people who feel hard done by the system, it's impossible to set it up so that everyone is happy.

I really have very mixed opinions on the entire situation, I initially thought the HPAT was a terrible idea, but now seeing that it actually works (ie. students getting in with 500-550 scores) I'm beginning to think it's not as half-cooked an idea as it initially seemed.

Congrats to everyone on getting med btw!
A long and arduous road lies before you all

finty

Larianne wrote: »

I still believe it should all be done like in the UK with personal statements and work experience etc.

Why did they decide to bring the HPAT in here anyway? Uni of Ulster uses it but no other UK college.

Not sure if the UK have it right either, considering the recent report on how access to professions like medicine is becoming the preserve of the wealthy.


Interviews would lead to favouritism for people from certain schools, kids of docs, etc. etc. and work experience would be more easily accessible to these people too.

At least with an exam, you get what you get based on your ability and nothing else. Except for the grind schools and study courses which do help those with more money to spend on their kids education.

HPAT tests aspect of students intelligence not examined in the leaving cert so it can only help get more rounded individuals into the profession.

Stompbox

Piste wrote: »

I hate the HPAT, the only difference it made to me getting medicine is that I got my 3rd choice of college. Without the HPAT I could have done any med course I wanted, so I just thought it was restricting.

Surely that was the intention of the system ,no? The HPAT, to me, seems designed to recognise those of considerable intelligence, unlike the Leaving Cert which tends to favour the more studious, diligent students. As tallaght01 already pointed out, I'd prefer to have my welfare in the hands of someone who outperformed most of the country of an intelligence test than one who simply recited their learning verbatim.

Eerie

Larianne wrote: »

"I think HPAT is a bit unfair. I just don't think it is a good assessment of what a good doctor you are going to be." But if you get 600 points in the leaving should you not then get a good result in the HPAT or was she like one of many who just learn off essays etc. ?

I still believe it should all be done like in the UK with personal statements and work experience etc.

That would be ideal, but Ireland is too small! There would always be that element of nepotism without a completely anonymous application process.

The HPAT isn't perfect, but I think it's a step in the right direction. It'll hopefully stop people trying to beat the system, like the girl in the Times article above, who changed subjects to ones where high points are easier to get and avoided harder ones like higher level maths which might actually be useful for medicine. It might also reduce the effectiveness of the "grind-school" type teaching and make it fairer on those who cannot afford or live too far from such schools.

While I feel sorry for her that she didn't get in (I was in that position myself in 2002!), if she really wants to do it there are other ways.

BTW, congratulations to all those who got offers today! I'll be seeing some of you in RCSI very soon!

Svalbard

Sweet wrote: »

Surely that was the intention of the system ,no? The HPAT, to me, seems designed to recognise those of considerable intelligence, unlike the Leaving Cert which tends to favour the more studious, diligent students. As tallaght01 already pointed out, I'd prefer to have my welfare in the hands of someone who outperformed most of the country of an intelligence test than one who simply recited their learning verbatim.

While admittedly I know nothing of how the HPAT works, is an exam in which all LC students participate a better indicator of who the most intelligent/studious/academic people in the country are versus an exam taken only by those who want to do medicine?

If both are marked 'on the curve', then the one with most participants may be the better test, no?

bleg

Sweet wrote: »

Surely that was the intention of the system ,no? The HPAT, to me, seems designed to recognise those of considerable intelligence, unlike the Leaving Cert which tends to favour the more studious, diligent students. As tallaght01 already pointed out, I'd prefer to have my welfare in the hands of someone who outperformed most of the country of an intelligence test than one who simply recited their learning verbatim.

I've been saying this for years to my family/friends. Somebody can go in and do the harder subjects such as maths and chemistry and get the minimum requirements one year. Then the next year they go back and do easier subjects such as Ag Science, Biology, Home Ec, Geography and History helping them to get higher points. It's a joke. You should have to get the minimum requirements and the number of points in the same year.

2Scoops

tallaght01 wrote: »

Have we got any evidence the HPAT produces the type of docs they say it does?

Someone on boards (traumadoc?) suggested that the only reason it was introduced reduce the ratio of F:M. I was a little skeptical at first but then I read a quote in the papers from someone involved in establishing HPAT in Ireland and they more or less said just that! Of course, they will couch it in pleasing BS about 'leveling the playing field' etc. etc.

So, my question (and Tallaght01's!) is: are there more men getting in under the new system??

EDIT:

Irish Independent wrote:

This year, 48pc of CAO offers for medicine are going to male students -- up from 40pc last year -- with a corresponding drop from 60pc to 52pc in the proportion of offers for females.

The answer is yes.

dudara

Sweet wrote: »

I'd prefer to have my welfare in the hands of someone who outperformed most of the country of an intelligence test than one who simply recited their learning verbatim.

Was discussing this point with someone last night. While I do broadly think that the HPAT is a good idea, he came up with the point that a 600 point student is clearly used to methodical study which can only be a good thing when studying medicine.

It will be interesting to see how the standard of graduates changes (or doesn't change) following this.

nesf

tallaght01 wrote: »

The guy who cardioverted me last week is a super brainy mofo. Total egghead. When yo're lying there about to have 120 joules of electricity pumped through your chest, you want a brainy fecker doing it :P

Exactly! It's always reassuring when someone smarter than you is taking care of you medically which of course becomes more of a problem the more intelligent you are...

nesf

Sweet wrote: »

As tallaght01 already pointed out, I'd prefer to have my welfare in the hands of someone who outperformed most of the country of an intelligence test than one who simply recited their learning verbatim.

You'll find that many people who are well above average intelligence don't like to equate very high LC scores with intelligence. Then that could be because for many of us our chosen course didn't require them.

rois!

Like its 2 different kinds of intelligent so surely its better for like people who are better than average at both to get in thats why i thin the HPAT is like a good idea...cos u needed to be better than like the average person in aptitude and u still ended up needing to be better than the average leaving cert results....and as for like seeming dumb well thats irrelevant i think...my friends all think im the biggest bimbo in the world just cos i sometimes say dumb stuff wihout like thinkin before hand but like im hoping 5 yrs of med school will get people to change their minds bout my dumbness....

Svalbard

rois! wrote: »

Like its 2 different kinds of intelligent so surely its better for like people who are better than average at both to get in thats why i thin the HPAT is like a good idea...cos u needed to be better than like the average person in aptitude and u still ended up needing to be better than the average leaving cert results....and as for like seeming dumb well thats irrelevant i think...my friends all think im the biggest bimbo in the world just cos i sometimes say dumb stuff wihout like thinkin before hand but like im hoping 5 yrs of med school will get people to change their minds bout my dumbness....

Like, for sure.:pac:

rois!

Svalbard wrote: »

Like, for sure.:pac:

yay, finally someone who like agrees with me!

nesf

rois! wrote: »

yay, finally someone who like agrees with me!

6 years from now...

"You've got cancer, like boy but don't stress cause we can sort you out like with some chemo!"

:pac:

rois!

im a girl not a boy...and why do i have cancer?

im confused...

Carsinian Thau

rois! wrote: »

im a girl not a boy...and why do i have cancer?

im confused...

He wasn't saying that you have/will get cancer. Just extrapolating (in a joking way) how your post made it sound you'd break the news.

rois!

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

He wasn't saying that you have/will get cancer. Just extrapolating (in a joking way) how your post made it sound you'd break the news.

oh...i dont understand extraplolating....

but i never say boy....does he think im from like cork?!?!

Carsinian Thau

rois! wrote: »

im hoping 5 yrs of med school will get people to change their minds bout my dumbness....

I would think it more important that 5 years of medschool would change your behaviour and not other's understanding of it.

I don't mean to be rude, but obviously patients are very very vulnerable people. You won't be able to say anything without thinking. You could do a lot of damage like that.

So I'd hope that 5 years of medschool will change that about you (and I hope for the sake of any patients, that you don't learn it the hard way).

Carsinian Thau

rois! wrote: »

oh...i dont understand extraplolating....

but i never say boy....does he think im from like cork?!?!

You use "like" a lot. It's a very Cork thing. I wouldn't be offended. Ireland is Ireland after all.

Extrapolate: To infer or estimate by extending or projecting known information.

rois!

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

I would think it more important that 5 years of medschool would change your behaviour and not other's understanding of it.

I don't mean to be rude, but obviously patients are very very vulnerable people. You won't be able to say anything without thinking. You could do a lot of damage like that.

So I'd hope that 5 years of medschool will change that about you (and I hope for the sake of any patients, that you don't learn it the hard way).

well when i say i say dumb things wihtout thinking i mean like saying things like u can drive to england and navan's a county and wasps are just baby bees and stallions are male dogs...i doubt that'll come up in like conversation with my patients....

rois!

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

You use "like" a lot. It's a very Cork thing. I wouldn't be offended. Ireland is Ireland after all.

Extrapolate: To infer or estimate by extending or projecting known information.

oooh u like learn something new every day!! i never really noticed how often i use the word like.....? jeesh it must be bad if im actually typing it....

Carsinian Thau

rois! wrote: »

well when i say i say dumb things wihtout thinking i mean like saying things like u can drive to england and navan's a county and wasps are just baby bees and stallions are male dogs...i doubt that'll come up in like conversation with my patients....

Even if it did, it wouldn't matter.

You just reminded me of someone with the worst bedside manner possible. As in completely tactless. I think that no matter what the news, getting it from her could make it so much worse.

But you're unlikely to be so disrespectful in front of patient as everything you'd need to say would be context driven.

So keep, saying the silly things (even in front of patients*, it'll probably bring a smile to their faces ), just keep the medical matters serious and all will be well.


*=but only to a certain extent

Carsinian Thau

rois! wrote: »

oooh u like learn something new every day!! i never really noticed how often i use the word like.....? jeesh it must be bad if im actually typing it....

It's grand really.

But when you arrive on the wards, I'd lose it quickly.

Even though I'm not even a clinical student yet, I have had a doctor tell me to stop saying it. (I had only used it once ).

rois!

ouch...

knuck

Larianne wrote: »

"I think HPAT is a bit unfair. I just don't think it is a good assessment of what a good doctor you are going to be." But if you get 600 points in the leaving should you not then get a good result in the HPAT or was she like one of many who just learn off essays etc. ?

I still believe it should all be done like in the UK with personal statements and work experience etc.

Why did they decide to bring the HPAT in here anyway? Uni of Ulster uses it but no other UK college.

I got into Physio this year after years of wanting to do it and getting rejected last year. I cried and then danced around like a loon.

All Uk Universities admit students to medicine based on a combination of A-level results, UKCAT Tests (which is the UK version of the HPAT), Personal Statement and Interviews.

I think it is a fair fairer system all round. HPAT and UKCAT exams test one's natural intelligence and aptitude. Not how good they are at cramming their short term memories and regurgitating a raft of often pointless information (i.e. home economic and agricultural science) in a long winded and overloaded leaving cert system.

I also feel the English system of doing 3 or 4 A-levels to a higher standard is a better system, than ramming Irish, English, Math and French down students throats. Let people specialise in the subjects they are interested in and are naturally capable at, that also lead into their chosen carrier path. For example, biology, chemistry and possibly math for a career in medicine.

rois!

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Even if it did, it wouldn't matter.

You just reminded me of someone with the worst bedside manner possible. As in completely tactless. I think that no matter what the news, getting it from her could make it so much worse.

But you're unlikely to be so disrespectful in front of patient as everything you'd need to say would be context driven.

So keep, saying the silly things (even in front of patients*, it'll probably bring a smile to their faces ), just keep the medical matters serious and all will be well.


*=but only to a certain extent

hold on a sec...i was gonna just let this slide and say nothing but the more i think of it the more outta line u seem, how dare u assume im completely tactless or disrespectful. you dont even know me, you've never met me and clearly you've never seen me in front of a patient so dont assume i won't be able to talk to them. im not a confrontational person but when people make wild assumptions and accusations towards people theyve never actually met i think a little self-defence is well deserved.

there u go, didnt even say like once...shows how mad i am...

ergo

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Even if it did, it wouldn't matter.

You just reminded me of someone with the worst bedside manner possible. As in completely tactless. I think that no matter what the news, getting it from her could make it so much worse.

rois! wrote: »

hold on a sec...i was gonna just let this slide and say nothing but the more i think of it the more outta line u seem, how dare u assume im completely tactless or disrespectful. you dont even know me, you've never met me and clearly you've never seen me in front of a patient so dont assume i won't be able to talk to them. im not a confrontational person but when people make wild assumptions and accusations towards people theyve never actually met i think a little self-defence is well deserved.

there u go, didnt even say like once...shows how mad i am...

ok, calm down here, I agree with Rois, the top post was over the top. I don't think you can make a judgement on bedside manner such as the one above based on a couple of posts on boards, especially having never met the poster

So, maybe back on topic.....

tallaght01

yea, c'mon, leave rois alone. This is supposed to be a nice thread about nice things

2Scoops

ergo wrote: »

and IMHO 600 points in the LC does not necessarily equate with being a good doctor, hence the HPAT I suppose (conspiracy theories of evening up the M:F ratios aside...)

Hardly a conspiracy theory when it is being openly admitted. :pac:

nesf

rois! I was only having a bit of fun with the "like" comment btw, though you're right when you're typing it out you know you've got a problem (says the Cork man..)

tallaght01

Another kid in the paper with 580 points who didn't get into medicine because of the HPAT.

I do genuinely think it's bad for the profession not to let these kids in.

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/controversial-aptitude-test-shatters-gabrielles-dream-of-medical-school-1863060.html

bleg

I dunno tallaght. I really think each case needs to be taken in isolation. Somebody that did really well in the HPAT but not so good points wise is bound to make a better doctor than somebody who repeats the leaving studying easier subjects like Ag. Science which have no relevance to med at all.


When I was filling out my UCAS forms I remember thinking their method of assigning places was far better than the CAO. They took the personal statement into account and gave you a target to aim for. However it also has the problem of introducing favoritism. If the UCAS method could be done anonymously I reckon it would solve a lot of the current problems.

knuck

Piste wrote: »

As far as I know, UKCAT has a science side, which tests actual knowledge, which is unlike the HPAT, as that tests "latent ability".

I don't see how the HPAT qualifies anyone to do medicine more than the LC. I just can't see how a high score in the HPAT translates to succeeding in Med School.

The UKCAT has no knowledge based element, it is purely aptitude based. Verbal reasoning, Quantitative reasoning, Abstract reasoning, and Decision Analysis are the four main sections of the test.

I simply feel that the leaving cert is suited to people who have a certain 'book-worm' ability. People don't have to be incredibily bright to slog away all day and all night cramming information, which can be relayed word for word in an exam. It places more emphasis on effort over intelligence.

Aptitude tests provide a counter balance to this, and simply catch out people who may not be that naturally perceptive, and able to think on their feet.

Therefore a combination of the two tests, in my opinion, is a fairer and more rounded method of assessing someones ability to study and then work in the medical profession.

The HPAT is here to stay.

In fact aptitude tests should be expanded and incorporated into the overall leaving cert process for ALL careers and entry into third level education, similar to SAT's in the States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT

ZorbaTehZ

SATs can't be compared with the HPAT at all tbh... SATs are curriculum based, HPAT is a general aptitude test.

tallaght01

I personally think people are underestimating the importance of a work ethic in medicine.

A kid who has 550 points can pass a medical degree. But what do we know about them? We know they've seen a target (med school) and they've decided they're going to go for it, and nail it. They've worked their nuts off all through school, in the face of a lot of temptation to do otherwise. And they've done the job.

This is what medicine is about. There's no question a person who has 550 points has the ability for med school. But the people that are REALLY useful in medicine are the people who are focussed and driven. The membership exams won't give a hoot about your "aptitude". Those exams involve just learning reams of information, and there's a 30-40% failure rate.

I would definitely want a hard slogger with less of a "natural aptitude" for the HPAT (which is what it is, as opposed to a natural aptitude for medicine) than someone who could nail the HPAT because they have good logical reasoning.

I like how they're using a comination of the two. But I think they're getting something wrong when a kid who's worked hard enough to get 600 points can't go to med school.

Amnesiac_ie

I think it's odd that the powers that be have decided that students wishing to pursue medicine have to undergo an "aptitude test" but not students choosing nursing, OT, speech and language therapy, pharmacy etc.

Personally I'm a big fan of the much maligned CAO points system. As much as is possible it anonymised applicants meaning there was no scope for nepotism. To do well in the Leaving Cert and scoring a lot of points generally meant being naturally bright and working hard to achieve good results. The skills needed to amass 600 points across subjects as diverse as Maths, Sciences, languages and music are quite diverse.

I also get a bit offended when media reports suggest students who scored 600 points are a bunch of elitist eggheads with no social skills or human emotion.

There is no perfect method for selecting medical students. I don't think HPAT was necessary but ultimately I'm sure the vast majority of successful applicants this year would also have succeeded under the old rules.

And for those who missed out... trust me, it may well be for the best!

tallaght01

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

I think it's odd that the powers that be have decided that students wishing to pursue medicine have to undergo an "aptitude test" but not students choosing nursing, OT, speech and language therapy, pharmacy etc.

!

This has completely bewildered me for a while. I don't get it either.

Amnesiac_ie

Actually Tallaght, couldd you enlighten us as to how Australian Unis select their medical students? It's a mix of undergraduates and graduates I understand? Do you think the Australian medical school "population" differs in any substantial way to British/Irish classes?

Carsinian Thau

tallaght01 wrote: »

This has completely bewildered me for a while. I don't get it either.

I think the arguement put forward for that is that the points race for those courses isn't as bad and that the HPAT is designed to try and reduce some of the pressure faced by LC students going for high points courses.

Which I don't think really worked tbh. It sounds as though everyone applying had to go to a lot more hassle this way.

whadabouchasir

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

I think the arguement put forward for that is that the points race for those courses isn't as bad and that the HPAT is designed to try and reduce some of the pressure faced by LC students going for high points courses.

Which I don't think really worked tbh. It sounds as though everyone applying had to go to a lot more hassle this way.

They also wanted to reduce the amount of people getting in with repeat leaving certs,so this is why they now make toy satisfy both the matriculation requirements and the points in the same year.this way you can't drop the subjects you don't like and take up easy ones.

tallaght01

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

Actually Tallaght, couldd you enlighten us as to how Australian Unis select their medical students? It's a mix of undergraduates and graduates I understand? Do you think the Australian medical school "population" differs in any substantial way to British/Irish classes?

In the uni that feeds my hospital, we get graduates only. So, they all have a degree before they get into med school.

I'm gonna be controversial and say their system has only convinced me more of the benefits of the CAO. You don't have to be that bright to get a 2:1 in a science degree, which is what most of them have. I do a lot of student teaching, and they're just a class below the students in the UK who were a very bright subset of the population.

It's made me very much against making medicine a graduate only career. Having said that, the super smart ones go on to get first class honours in their BSc and then do med. I think if they're going to make it graduate only then they should increase the requirement to a 1:1

Carsinian Thau

whadabouchasir wrote: »

They also wanted to reduce the amount of people getting in with repeat leaving certs,so this is why they now make toy satisfy both the matriculation requirements and the points in the same year.this way you can't drop the subjects you don't like and take up easy ones.

That too.

I wonder if it could be said that the number of repeat students created the points race to begin with?

I know that almost all the repeat students in my year came in on 590/600 which probably made it that bit harder for the people doing it for the first time and who weren't able to get such high points.

whadabouchasir

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

That too.

I wonder if it could be said that the number of repeat students created the points race to begin with?

I'd say it probably is,because medicine is the only course in the country that has this rule.It also has the highest points.In the U.K for example they are only interested in your exam results in your first sitting.I don't think that they would bring this in here though.Then the Independent and Liveline would have a field day.