Part of Dublin to Belfast rail line collapses

murphaph

If they had maintained water levels and flows at their old levels I doubt it would have collapsed at all so it should be possible to reinstate what was there without an EIS.

I just wonder how many people will trust such a repaired structure.

chughes

I was able to Drive from the bottom of the Kilcrea road around to Hutchenson's Strand (near where the swans live). I've never been able to this before but I could today because of the low water levels in the estuary. Also the top end of the estuary is just mud flats now. I drove on around the estuary to Malahide and stopped to Caves Strand to look at the damage. I didn't see anyone working on the bridge. Are they only working Mon-Fri to fix this ?

leeroybrown

chughes wrote: »

I didn't see anyone working on the bridge. Are they only working Mon-Fri to fix this ?

Why should they start working before they actually know what they need to do and what they're permitted to do?

leeroybrown

leeroybrown wrote: »

Why should they start working before they actually know what they need to do and what they're permitted to do?

At the absolute minimum they need to make safe the existing structure.

leeroybrown

Deleted User wrote: »

At the absolute minimum they need to make safe the existing structure.

They'll need to assess the structural condition of the bridge, foundations and weir, then decide exactly what remedial actions are required and who should complete them. Putting people to work on the partially collapsed bridge without doing that could potentially be very unsafe and might ultimately hamper the repair plans.

Sponge Bob

I sent an email off to Brussels asking about the EIS , got a nice email from one of their staff on the matter . I told them to talk to Ian Lumley of An Taisce and to the Fingal Heritage Officer and County Manager both !

To Commissioner Stavros Dimas cc Karl Falkenberg DG

Commissioner.

It has come to my notice that the Irish Railway Authority ( Iarnrod Eireann, henceforth IE) has commenced egnineering works on a structure located in the Malahide Special Area of Conservation ( SAC) which is a scheduled Natura 2000 Annex 1 site .

The extent of the works is far greater than is required to maintain the integrity of the SAC; involving armour rock and heavy machinery deployed in the centre of the SAC

It is my belief that An Taisce , the heritage body, and Fingal County Council , the local authority , are remiss in not enforcing normal procedure for civil engineering works in a Natura 2000 Annex 1 site . These normally proceed only where an Environmental Impact Statement is produced and/or where consents are sought and granted on specific grounds.

I refer to a similar incident in Donegal at the same time and referenced by the friends of the Irish Environment . It also involved transport disruption , however no work has been carried out to remedy the transport deficit as the rules are being applied.

http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/paperstoday/index.php?do=paperstoday&action=view&id=13331

The area in question is wetland and designated a Special Area of Conservation. Under Article 6 of the EU Habitats' Directive, an ecology report must be furnished before any work can be undertaken.

I fail to understand why Article 6 is not being applied in Malahide as it is in Donegal . I ask that some clarity be provided by the commission as to the correct procedure in these cases .

Yours Sincerely

Sponge Bob

P_1

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I sent an email off to Brussels asking about the EIS , got a nice email from one of their staff on the matter . I told them to talk to Ian Lumley of An Taisce and to the Fingal Heritage Officer and County Manager both !

To Commissioner Stavros Dimas cc Karl Falkenberg DG

Commissioner.

It has come to my notice that the Irish Railway Authority ( Iarnrod Eireann, henceforth IE) has commenced egnineering works on a structure located in the Malahide Special Area of Conservation ( SAC) which is a scheduled Natura 2000 Annex 1 site .

The extent of the works is far greater than is required to maintain the integrity of the SAC; involving armour rock and heavy machinery deployed in the centre of the SAC

It is my belief that An Taisce , the heritage body, and Fingal County Council , the local authority , are remiss in not enforcing normal procedure for civil engineering works in a Natura 2000 Annex 1 site . These normally proceed only where an Environmental Impact Statement is produced and/or where consents are sought and granted on specific grounds.

I refer to a similar incident in Donegal at the same time and referenced by the friends of the Irish Environment . It also involved transport disruption , however no work has been carried out to remedy the transport deficit as the rules are being applied.

http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/paperstoday/index.php?do=paperstoday&action=view&id=13331



I fail to understand why Article 6 is not being applied in Malahide as it is in Donegal . I ask that some clarity be provided by the commission as to the correct procedure in these cases .

Yours Sincerely

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob, I'm sure I speak for a significant majority of the 10,000 or so people who's journey into and out of work, university and school have been significantly impacted by this bridge collapse.

Stop with your interference in this issue. Fine its a SAC, but the train line was there before the bloody idea of a SAC came into some idiots mind. Seriously, who comes first in your estimation? Real life human beings or some bloody geese?

If some interfering hippy gets the rebulding of this bridge delayed I'd imagine they would have a trail of angry commuters beating a path down to their door in order to talk some sense into them.

If it makes so much difference to you I'll go down to the bloody estuary and shoot the bloody geese, problem solved!

Sponge Bob

pithater1 wrote: »

If it makes so much difference to you I'll go down to the bloody estuary and shoot the bloody geese, problem solved!

You are , of course, correct . The SAC is there only because of its fauna ....which if no longer there............ :cool: :cool:

I live in a SAC which is how I know the rules. An Taisce would not let us widen the boreen a few years back ( very nasty rock on a corner) where some kids were killed before . One night, astonishingly, it simply blew up. A kind neighbour happened to come along straight away with his digger to clear it up and we were all very grateful to him for all he did seeing as the road was impassable for 2 hours .

Around here we would be singularly disappointed to discover that there is one rule for west of Ireland SACs and another for Dublin SACs ...which you probably noted was the nub of the complaint and do remember we in the wesht know a lot more about the rules than the locals do in Malahide because we have to live with them

sdanseo

Just driving through Malahide village earlier and saw a low-loader with a massive chunk of the bridge on the back... bit of a surreal moment tbh.

Two cranes now on-site; pics tonight or tomorrow if I get a chance.

ttm

pithater1 wrote: »

Sponge Bob, I'm sure I speak for a significant majority of the 10,000 or so people who's journey into and out of work, university and school have been significantly impacted by this bridge collapse.

Stop with your interference in this issue. Fine its a SAC, but the train line was there before the bloody idea of a SAC came into some idiots mind. Seriously, who comes first in your estimation? Real life human beings or some bloody geese?

If some interfering hippy gets the rebulding of this bridge delayed I'd imagine they would have a trail of angry commuters beating a path down to their door in order to talk some sense into them.

If it makes so much difference to you I'll go down to the bloody estuary and shoot the bloody geese, problem solved!

10,000 commuters what better reason to wipe out a habitat?

Good man Sponge Bob!

invincibleirish

pithater1 wrote: »

Sponge Bob, I'm sure I speak for a significant majority of the 10,000 or so people who's journey into and out of work, university and school have been significantly impacted by this bridge collapse.

Stop with your interference in this issue. Fine its a SAC, but the train line was there before the bloody idea of a SAC came into some idiots mind. Seriously, who comes first in your estimation? Real life human beings or some bloody geese?

If some interfering hippy gets the rebulding of this bridge delayed I'd imagine they would have a trail of angry commuters beating a path down to their door in order to talk some sense into them.

If it makes so much difference to you I'll go down to the bloody estuary and shoot the bloody geese, problem solved!

Typical Irish attitude, rules shouldn't apply when i'm inconvenienced. You are an example to your country sir!.

P_1

Sponge Bob wrote: »

You are , of course, correct . The SAC is there only because of its fauna ....which if no longer there............ :cool: :cool:

I live in a SAC which is how I know the rules. An Taisce would not let us widen the boreen a few years back ( very nasty rock on a corner) where some kids were killed before . One night, astonishingly, it simply blew up. A kind neighbour happened to come along straight away with his digger to clear it up and we were all very grateful to him for all he did seeing as the road was impassable for 2 hours .

Around here we would be singularly disappointed to discover that there is one rule for west of Ireland SACs and another for Dublin SACs ...which you probably noted was the nub of the complaint and do remember we in the wesht know a lot more about the rules than the locals do in Malahide because we have to live with them

Fair enough, I may have been slightly edgy in that last post, just spent a lot of time in traffic :rolleyes:.

I suppose it comes down to economies of scale. I'd say that in rural (I assume you are living in a rural area, if not I appologise) areas in the West, there are liable to be much less people affected by SACs as opposed to the case of the Malahide viaduct which is effecting thousands of people each day.

Vic_08

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Around here we would be singularly disappointed to discover that there is one rule for west of Ireland SACs and another for Dublin SACs ...which you probably noted was the nub of the complaint

FFS Is there anybody remaining in the Wesht whose primary occupation isn't keeping score with Dublin and complaining bitterly that they are hard done by at every turn?

Sponge Bob wrote: »

and do remember we in the wesht know a lot more about the rules than the locals do in Malahide because we have to live with them

And apparently about engaging in criminal activity to bypass any rule you don't agree with.

Sponge Bob

pithater1 wrote: »

I suppose it comes down to economies of scale. I'd say that in rural (I assume you are living in a rural area, if not I appologise) areas in the West, there are liable to be much less people affected by SACs as opposed to the case of the Malahide viaduct which is effecting thousands of people each day.

Same rules apply . For example I cannot replace my cowshed unless I produce a full EIS first . I also had grief over changing the corrugation on the roof of the shed I that I cannot replace without a full EIS .


( OH!!! the Guards supervised the blowing up of the rock as they do all blasting )

dfx-

ttm wrote: »

10,000 commuters what better reason to wipe out a habitat?

Good man Sponge Bob!

I can think of worse ideas...like not building the thing back as quick as possible if not quicker.

invincibleirish wrote: »

Typical Irish attitude, rules shouldn't apply when i'm inconvenienced. You are an example to your country sir!.

I'm not inconvenienced by the bridge collapse - it's the entirely opposite side of the city to me - and I agree with him..is that still this "typical Irish attitude" then?

I say this as nice as I can, anyone who thinks this bridge should be delayed to be rebuilt because of surveys or questionnaires or pub quizzes need their head checked.

Sponge Bob

dfx- wrote: »

I say this as nice as I can, anyone who thinks this bridge should be delayed to be rebuilt because of surveys or questionnaires or pub quizzes need their head checked.

I agree. However these people in Glencolumkille in Donegal are not allowed to move the bogside blocking their road for exactly the same reason .

http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalnews/20-Homes-Isolated-in-freak.5584654.jp

It is in a SAC , Donegal SAC or Dublin SAC , does not matter by law !

One local resident commented. "All we keep hearing about is a railway bridge collapsing outside Dublin which was serious but at least those people can get somewhere. We cannot move.

Judgement Day

Sponge Bob - Am I being particularly dense here but I see nothing in the piece from Donegal saying that they are being prevented from clearing the bog off the road. Anyway I think you're just shxxxt stirring as there is no question of the reinstatement of the Malahide rebuild being held up for environmental reasons. Not sure what your angle is on this - do you not want the bridge replaced ASAP like most of us? As I say probably me just being thick in not understanding your postings. I have a sore throat....and who knows where that may lead...no wonder I am feeling crabby!

penexpers

This map (slightly old I think), would seem to indicate that the railway bridge is not subject to the SAC.

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Planning/LocalAreaPlans/HacketstownLocalAreaPlan2009/publications,22180,en.pdf

edit to say map isn't so old - date February 2009.

sdanseo

penexpers wrote: »

This map (slightly old I think), would seem to indicate that the railway bridge is not subject to the SAC.

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Planning/LocalAreaPlans/HacketstownLocalAreaPlan2009/publications,22180,en.pdf

edit to say map isn't so old - date February 2009.

Looks to me like it is, but that the embankment is not. The bridge is inside the red line.

Hungerford

According to the National Parks and Wildlife Service (NPWS), the railway line is not part of the SAC. The official description of the site reads:

Malahide Estuary is situated immediately north of Malahide and east of Swords. It is the estuary of the River Broadmeadow. The site is divided by a railway viaduct built in the 1800s.

I suspect the reason why the bridge isn't included on the maps is the fact that isn't part of the shoreline - it's over the water rather than at the edge of it.

Sponge Bob

The weir keeps the water in the upper estuary , rather than shoot the poor gooses just knock the weir altogether and ....presto no more SAC

The red line marks the weir which is A ( nay THE) Key part of the SAC .

murphaph

Who decides what is an SAC and what isn't?

I believe Sponge Bob's complaint will be noted and deemed invalid as it is merely a question of what constitutes replacing what wa there before. He believes the works at hand go much further, the commission may not. I believe that nature is resilient enough to adapt to some new rock and the associated works and will continue to thrive in the estuary despite said works.

AlekSmart

Vic08........

FFS Is there anybody remaining in the Wesht whose primary occupation isn't keeping score with Dublin and complaining bitterly that they are hard done by at every turn?

Thats just unfair and perhaps even untrue....the PRIMARY occupation is voting for the likes of the Pee Flynns then chairing them aloft around parochial halls countwide.....Go on ye boy ye !!!

Hungerford

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The red line marks the weir which is A ( nay THE) Key part of the SAC .

If that's the case, it sounds like the current work on weir is admissible without an EIS - after all, they are merely restoring it to the way that it was before the erosion.

I know that Birdwatch Ireland are particularly eager for the restoration to be done ASAP because of the low waters that currently exist in the estuary after the collapse.

Victor

murphaph wrote: »

Who decides what is an SAC and what isn't?

I don't know, but I imagine there is EPA involvment.

I believe Sponge Bob's complaint will be noted and deemed invalid as it is merely a question of what constitutes replacing what wa there before. He believes the works at hand go much further, the commission may not. I believe that nature is resilient enough to adapt to some new rock and the associated works and will continue to thrive in the estuary despite said works.

While nature can be resilient. The current situation is a major change from before the collapse. The salinity of the upper estuary (semi-tidal) is changing an water-edge flora an fauna are now challenged by the change in water level.

Eoineo

murphaph wrote: »

Who decides what is an SAC and what isn't?

I believe Sponge Bob's complaint will be noted and deemed invalid as it is merely a question of what constitutes replacing what wa there before. He believes the works at hand go much further, the commission may not. I believe that nature is resilient enough to adapt to some new rock and the associated works and will continue to thrive in the estuary despite said works.

Interestingly prior to the viaduct being constructed in the estuary there was a thriving population of Oysters which died out. I believe that the flax growing in the estuary was discontinued after the viaduct was built aswell - this is the reason why there is an area known as "Yellow Walls" in Malahide - the walls were yellow from the flax drying on the walls.

murphaph

Victor wrote: »

While nature can be resilient. The current situation is a major change from before the collapse. The salinity of the upper estuary (semi-tidal) is changing an water-edge flora an fauna are now challenged by the change in water level.

So Sponge Bob's letter to Europe could actually help kill off the unique flora and fauna along the waterline as rebuilding (reinstating what was there before) the weir as quickly as possible may prevent the salinity from irreparably damaging it. How ironic!

Wild Bill

Victor wrote: »

water-edge flora an fauna are now challenged

Now isn't that sad

Actually I think both the trapped Donegal folk and the 10,000 commuters have a genuine grievance about the priortisation of fauna over people.

But I agree the rustic whining grates a bit; one incident nearly killed 200 people, directly affects 10,000 and indirectly perhaps 50,000. The other affects what, 50 people? To expect equal coverage is bizarre, regardless of location.

If the Donegal SAC is problematic I could suggest a number of solutions (literally) involving chemicals. But I won't 'cos those suggestions would involve morally righteous but totally illegal activity.

So don't even think of it. Starve if ye must

lostexpectation

photo taken 8 mins before collapse of train going over

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimnewry/3845069139/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimnewry/3852139393/sizes/l/

catb keeping on eye on reconstruction
http://www.flickr.com/photos/catb/3871478266/

another close up
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpdublin/3858229969/

see new civil engineer has a story and diagram.. http://www.nce.co.uk/news/structures/scour-revealed-as-cause-of-irish-bridge-collapse/5207460.article

Hungerford

Meanwhile, it's time to play Who wants to be an Irish Rail manager? To win, you just have to answer the following question:

The Malahide viaduct has collapsed, leaving one of the Enterprise sets stuck in Dublin. You have, however, two MK3 sets, one 071, the ability to borrow a loco from NIR, as well as two 201 sets in Belfast which will soon become available. Do you:

A. Use one of the two MK3 sets and a loco to form a third set.
B. Introduce bus transfers for the services covered by the third set.
C. Do nothing - with consequent delays
D. Slash the number of Dublin-Belfast services....

Any of those who answered A would be correct in a sane railway system but this is Irish Rail we're talking about so they're doing D instead. :eek: