"I now want to get into teaching" bandwagon

lauralee28

I read a lot of threads/queries posted lately and am baffled/amused at the amount of people who want to "get into secondary teaching with my degree", "branch out into teaching", "become a teacher" etc etc etc............

As someone who is a strong believer that teaching is a vocation, this really grates on me. In the current economic state of the country is teaching now seen as an easy option for people in other professions who suddenly decide they now want to "be a teacher"?

I am not suggesting that a person has no right to change career paths, that is normal and perfectly acceptable. Its just the number of people assuming that their various (a lot of the time non-teaching subject) degrees "qualifies me to teach X,Y,Z".

It frustrates me also to see posters inquire about "shortcuts" into teaching. It seems a lot of people are simply jumping on this bandwagon and it makes me feel slightly demeened as a professional who would never ask "i have a degree in english and history, can anyone tell me if this qualifies me as a nurse? If not can somebody suggest a year long online course that can give me a shortcut into nursing?"

Do these people realise the current job crisis among teachers??????????
Sorry for the rant, but have just read so many similar threads!

kippy

lauralee28 wrote: »

I read a lot of threads/queries posted lately and am baffled/amused at the amount of people who want to "get into secondary teaching with my degree", "branch out into teaching", "become a teacher" etc etc etc............

As someone who is a strong believer that teaching is a vocation, this really grates on me. In the current economic state of the country is teaching now seen as an easy option for people in other professions who suddenly decide they now want to "be a teacher"?

I am not suggesting that a person has no right to change career paths, that is normal and perfectly acceptable. Its just the number of people assuming that their various (a lot of the time non-teaching subject) degrees "qualifies me to teach X,Y,Z".

It frustrates me also to see posters inquire about "shortcuts" into teaching. It seems a lot of people are simply jumping on this bandwagon and it makes me feel slightly demeened as a professional who would never ask "i have a degree in english and history, can anyone tell me if this qualifies me as a nurse? If not can somebody suggest a year long online course that can give me a shortcut into nursing?"

Do these people realise the current job crisis among teachers??????????
Sorry for the rant, but have just read so many similar threads!

I totally agree with a lot of your points but people change their opinions and minds based on a number of things especially when it comes to career. The didnt have enough teachers a few years ago and made it "easier" (by increasing the numbers going through college, new courses etc) to get into teaching, to the extent that there are now too many (for the moment, retirements over the next few years should sort that out somewhat so long as numbers are reduced going through college.
The last few years have seen people with all manner of degrees get into teaching, mainly because they couldnt get jobs elsewhere or realised they didnt like the job the degree was for. A lot of these people are in for a shock as it really is something you have to really want to do and be aware of all the cons of the profession.
Jobs are so tight at the moment in everything and teaching is STILL a very good profession to get into, people are seeing this as a major PRO.

I do not like the way that some old school qualified teachers look down on all online trained teachers. If it really was the vocation based career, academic qualifications shouldnt have as big a bearing on it. These people may not have got the points they needed in the LC at the time but could make excellent teachers.
I speak as the husband of a primary teacher of 7 years so I do know the stresses of it.

livinginkorea

The problem is too that a lot of people might have no experience teaching at all, not even tutoring or something like that before they decide to take the jump into the deep end. We want people who love teaching, not looking for a quick way to make money, to teach our kids.

kippy

livinginkorea wrote: »

The problem is too that a lot of people might have no experience teaching at all, not even tutoring or something like that before they decide to take the jump into the deep end. We want people who love teaching, not looking for a quick way to make money, to teach our kids.

Everyone who has been to school has "shadowed" a teacher for a good part of their lives and has a good idea about what the job entails.
Theres far more careers out there where people have far less knowledge of the career before getting into it.

kmick

Well they are goign to get a shock when they realise there are no jobs in teaching right now. In addition most teachers would ot decribe their jobs as a vocation and would be annoyed if an outsider described it as such.

kippy

kmick wrote: »

Well they are goign to get a shock when they realise there are no jobs in teaching right now. In addition most teachers would ot decribe their jobs as a vocation and would be annoyed if an outsider described it as such.

There are no jobs in almost ANYTHING right now.............I dont think it's that shocking.
I assume the OP is a teacher, not an "outsider".

Rosita

lauralee28 wrote: »

1) I read a lot of threads/queries posted lately and am baffled/amused at the amount of people who want to "get into secondary teaching with my degree", "branch out into teaching", "become a teacher" etc etc etc............

As someone who is a strong believer that teaching is a vocation, this really grates on me.

2) In the current economic state of the country is teaching now seen as an easy option for people in other professions who suddenly decide they now want to "be a teacher"?

3) I am not suggesting that a person has no right to change career paths, that is normal and perfectly acceptable. Its just the number of people assuming that their various (a lot of the time non-teaching subject) degrees "qualifies me to teach X,Y,Z".

4) It frustrates me also to see posters inquire about "shortcuts" into teaching. It seems a lot of people are simply jumping on this bandwagon and it makes me feel slightly demeened as a professional who would never ask "i have a degree in english and history, can anyone tell me if this qualifies me as a nurse? If not can somebody suggest a year long online course that can give me a shortcut into nursing?"

5) Do these people realise the current job crisis among teachers??????????
Sorry for the rant, but have just read so many similar threads!

1) The OED defines "vocation" as "a strong feeling that you ought to pursue a particular career or occupation". I think it is important when we hear the "teaching is a vocation" line - which I have read here quite a bit recently, that it is not a view proffered to try to exclude people as if it is some kind of higher calling.

Having a vocation ("a strong feeling that you ought to pursue a particular career or occupation") is not a) confined to teaching or the priesthood - it is a decision forced on most people when they are 18, and b) a guarantee that somebody will be a good teacher. I think it is important to point that out.

I think the OP would be surprised at how many teachers do not love their work or who might have been influenced to go down that route through lack of ther options or opportunites.

2) There is a huge assumption here. I too often read of people who are interested in changing career to teaching, but I don't think I have ever read anyone suggest they are doing so because it is "an easy option".

Perhaps there is something subliminal in your own thinking that holds the view that it is a relatively easy option and you are inappropriately attributing that view to others as a result?

That said, it is relatively easy to qualify in that if you have an even vaguely suitable degree you can qualify as a teacher in one year. I'd say that certainly influences people.

3) This is just plain lack of research, and yes it is annoying, especially (for me anyway) some people recently who have engineering degrees who seem to think it qualified them or should qualify them to teach pretty much everything.

4) In fairness it is in the nature of the human condition to tend toward short-cuts in all areas. If you decided to train as a Doctor or a Plumber in the morning and one course option was a year shorter than the other would you not be tempted even momentarily to go for the quicker option?

Regarding the "profession" - an outsider might consider that something which purports to be a profession and presumably espouses commensurate professional standards would be far more rigorous about the training of teachers (the actual training period of a one year H-Dip would not pass muster in any other "profession") and the employing of trained people rather than unqualified people, and also should be capable of ensuring that subject areas are adequately catered for.

These issues, rather than any uninformed views expressed here demean the "profession".

5) Some probably do, some probably don't. Others will be made aware of the jobs suituation and will hope it goes away. Part of the problem, as already mentioned, is that because someone can qualify in only one year - at second level anyway - so many will be tempted to do that and take their chances, prospects notwithstanding. But are people not entitled to take their chances in that way?

And it in case people have not noticed there are not many areas of employment burgeoning with possibility right now if we are honest about it.

freire

kippy wrote: »

Everyone who has been to school has "shadowed" a teacher for a good part of their lives and has a good idea about what the job entails.

With respect, I find this idea absurd. I for one did not have a clue as to the complexities and massive felt and real responsibilities inherent in teaching, prior to my first real experiences on the other side of the desk.

I also feel that it is exactly this idea that fuels much of the current anti-teacher sentiment at large in society. The ''sure we all went to school and know what teachers are like'' etc.

I wholly agree that people are free to change career at any time. I just wouldn't be very surprised to find many of these same people changing to another, after a dose of real world teaching time.

Despite what many people seem to think, not everyone can teach. Or even pretend to.

kippy

freire wrote: »

With respect, I find this idea absurd. I for one did not have a clue as to the complexities and massive felt and real responsibilities inherent in teaching, prior to my first real experiences on the other side of the desk.

I also feel that it is exactly this idea that fuels much of the current anti-teacher sentiment at large in society. The ''sure we all went to school and know what teachers are like'' etc.

I wholly agree that people are free to change career at any time. I just wouldn't be very surprised to find many of these same people changing to another, after a dose of real world teaching time.

Despite what many people seem to think, not everyone can teach. Or even pretend to.

With the greatest respect, I was making the point that people have had far more exposure to teaching as a career than they have to almost any other career and its pretty logical to assume that this could point people in that career direction than any other career direction especially when everything else is taken into account. I am fully aware that things are far more complex on the other end of the desk. I made my comment in response to livinginkorea who said "The problem is too that a lot of people might have no experience teaching at all" which is plainly wrong, they have much more experience of it than any other career, whether it be accurate or not.
Theres a lot of anti teacher sentiment at all times in this country, its because it is actually a good job should it suit you, however those that it doesnt suit or who would never actually do it because they cant do get jealous of teaching mainly because of the perceived pay and working conditions.
I am fully aware that not everyone can teach, or pretend to. Thats what I was alluding to when I stated that acedemic qualifications are no indicator to how good a teacher you will be and why I stated that I believed it good that people who weren't able to get into teaching because of a low points score in the LC have been able to get in in the past few years. Theres no reason these people wont make perfectly good teachers either, despite the comments from some traditionally trained teachers.

gaeilgebeo

freire wrote: »

With respect, I find this idea absurd. I for one did not have a clue as to the complexities and massive felt and real responsibilities inherent in teaching, prior to my first real experiences on the other side of the desk.

I also feel that it is exactly this idea that fuels much of the current anti-teacher sentiment at large in society. The ''sure we all went to school and know what teachers are like'' etc.

I wholly agree that people are free to change career at any time. I just wouldn't be very surprised to find many of these same people changing to another, after a dose of real world teaching time.

Despite what many people seem to think, not everyone can teach. Or even pretend to.

Hear hear! Well said! Someone speaking a bit of reality rather than the flowery idealistic views of some of the above posters!

kippy

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Hear hear! Well said! Someone speaking a bit of reality rather than the flowery idealistic views of some of the above posters!

Exactly what part of my views are "flowery and idealistic"?

kmick

kippy wrote: »

I assume the OP is a teacher, not an "outsider".

Which is even more strange. Teaching is a profession not a vocation.

rainbowtrout

I dunno. People change career a lot more now than they used to. I'm sure if most people looked at their own parents a lot of them have been in the same job, or very similar for the past 20, 30, 40 years. People aren't afraid to try new things now or re-train if their first career choice doesn't work out for whatever reasons. I don't have a problem with someone deciding they want to become a teacher at any age past the age 18-22.

However there does seem to be a misguided view of teaching that once you get a job you're sorted, that all teachers are permanent on full hours etc. Ask any class of students, most won't know the difference or won't know the difference between a teacher who has 10 hours or 22 hours and I think a lot of people getting into teaching don't realise that either.

There are also lots of people who assume that once they have a degree that they should be able to teach something and wonder why teachers working for many years tell them their subjects are not really viable.. there's been plenty of threads on 'Can I become an IT teacher?'

But I think the only thing that really grates with me is the threads of the type ' I have a degree in French and Geography'. I'd like to do the PGDE but I don't want to teach Geography, I really liked Biology when I did it for my Leaving Cert, can I do that instead?' No, you bloody can't. What makes you think you are qualified to teach a subject because you did it for your leaving cert when every other Science teacher had to get a degree in the subject? I think some people (not everyone of course, brush is remaining firmly in pot of tar) just assume that once you have a degree in anything you can swan into a school and teach anything you fancy. Now I know there are teachers in schools teaching subjects they are not qualified in, and that can be because the principal is stuck for someone to teach a class, but subjects are not awarded totally randomly, generally if there is a maths class going spare and no maths teacher, it will be given to a science or business teacher, or someone with a subject that is someway related to it.

I think a good general rule would be, if your degree is not a subject at Junior Cert/Leaving Cert level you can't teach it.

kmick

freire wrote: »

I also feel that it is exactly this idea that fuels much of the current anti-teacher sentiment at large in society. The ''sure we all went to school and know what teachers are like'' etc.

I agree that being in the classroom does not qualify you to be a teacher that is plainly absurd. However the "anti-teacher" sentiment just does not exist in most people they know ye do a good job in the main.

kippy

kmick wrote: »

I agree that being in the classroom does not qualify you to be a teacher that is plainly absurd. However the "anti-teacher" sentiment just does not exist in most people they know ye do a good job in the main.

Noone anywhere said that being in a classroom "qualified" you to be a teacher.

smcgiff

kmick wrote: »

Which is even more strange. Teaching is a lower profession not a vocation.

There fixed your post:D

Teaching Vocation translated - 'It's what my Mam/Dad did"

pjtb

The number of people wanting to do teaching does seem to have skyrocketed. I don't know what it is, but I'd say the perception that teachers all have secure jobs and pensions, and have "the best holidays and short working days" is probably the main reason for this. Of course many people decide to do teaching because it is what they actually want to do, but so many seem to focus on the bonuses. Many are oblivious to, or not focussing on the actual work that needs to be done. I'm training to be a primary teacher at the moment, and I hear so many co-students saying they're only in it for the time off/ money. It makes me mad, and I pity the children that will have teachers who are living for the bell at 3:00 p.m.!

spurious

pjtb wrote: »

I'm training to be a primary teacher at the moment, and I hear so many co-students saying they're only in it for the time off/ money.

Oh to be a fly on the wall when they hit the real world, unless they mean time off as in no prospect of a job and money as in none.

Miss Lockhart

Apologies - this is long....

I think it’s important to realise that people asking questions here about “getting into teaching” are often only thinking about it. It’s just a message board – they’re sounding out people’s opinions and advice, not making an official application, so I don’t think there should be a “requirement” for them to have done the research.

This is particularly true because the Teaching Council guidelines and regulations are as clear as mud. They are so unhelpful on the phone and have no clue what their own regulations actually are. No wonder people are confused.

People also seem to think the TC’s list of “approved” degrees is the absolute bible – it is by no means definitive and, realistically, only includes those courses which universities have specifically applied to have listed, or which are the “traditional” entry to teaching (Arts, Science). There are countless other degrees that are more than sufficient to cover the requirements – it’s just that nobody has assessed them. And even if an individual has had their qualification assessed and approved it does not appear on the list.

I myself have come to teaching from an “unusual” area. I listened to all the pessimistic opinions on how my degree would “never be accepted”. These were also the opinions expressed by the staff in the school I did subbing in and by those who answer the phone in the TC offices – in fact they were most rude in how they dismissed my chances, telling me I shouldn’t even bother applying. The fact is, I know what my degree covered better than anyone, and I was sure it cover the requirements listed for my subject. In the end it took the TC only a fortnight to approve my degree once I had handed in the required information and paperwork.

I would, of course, advise anyone considering the move to teaching to get some hands on experience if possible – at the very least shadow a teacher for a week. I had no “calling” to teach. I qualified in a supposedly “prestigious” profession with far higher wages than teaching – a profession many people claim they would love to be in. But in the end it just wasn’t for me. I don’t regret doing my degree and training, and I don’t feel bad about deciding it’s not for me. I ended up sub teaching for a few weeks purely by chance a few years ago – I was asked to do it and practically had to have my arm twisted to accept. I had never thought about teaching and was sure I would be terrible at it. In fact, I loved every minute of it and going to work was a pleasure – despite the difficult students or classes. So I continued with subbing for a couple of years before deciding to do the Dip, which I will do this year. I had no calling but I believe I am definitely right for the job.

As for the “professionalism” of teaching – I agree with whoever said it is problems within the sector itself, with regulation, training and recruitment that are undermining it. At the time, I was shocked that a school would allow me, with no experience or teaching qualification, to teach their students. No other profession would allow the unqualified loose on their clients. At the same time, it is important and useful for somebody to be able to get a true idea of what is involved. I also think anyone considering getting into it in the current climate, including myself, should have a realistic picture of the prospects. I think we need to find a better balance. Unfortunately I don’t think the TC is capable of doing the job.

Pjays

I don't think any sort of work shadowing actually prepares you for the classroom until you are in it yourself teaching. I did four years of teaching practice when doing my BEd and each TP was completely different to the next. Whatever you experienced in your own school as a student will not be the same in about 95% of other schools as I found out this year. The students will be different, the location of the school will be and most importantly the policies of schools differ hugely and they can have a profound effect on the quality of learning and teaching. I do think there are plenty of people who are not cut out for teaching. It is a demanding, challenging job and I think if you can go home at half 3 with nothing to do, then you are not putting your full resources into it. You also have to be realistic and understand the situation you are in. Unfortunately the system wants us to teach for the exams and in some schools getting them to do the JC and staying in school is a huge achievement which is often underlooked by the education authorities.

BoozyBabe

I don't have much to add, & I've found this quite an interesting thread, & I'd actually agree with a good bit of the ops post.

You often hear comments (& on this thread too) about how us mature students could possibly know it's the career for us when we've no experience. That it's a calling, not just something you decide you want to do at a later stage, that we're blind going into it & enroute for a wake up call!!!

How is this different from all the LC students who go straight into teaching? None of them have any experience, at 17 / 18 V little of them have any real idea of what they want to do, & a lot only do it because their friends are doing it / it's what most are doing at the mo / what else is there to do, etc. They are also blind as to what the profession entails.

So why then do those of us, who decide to give up everything we know to follow a niggling feeling we've had for years get such a hard time for doing so?

I didn't know what I wanted to do at 17. I chose the wrong path. I've regretted it for about 8 years now. Why I waited 8 years? I had no hons Irish LC. (Primary teaching).
So, I got my act together & I got my Irish qual.
I did not take the easy route, I don't think it's an easy route. I think it's a career that I'll love, & my first TP proved that. I could not afford to get experience before beginning the post grad. It's not my fault that the time it eventually happened for me is the time everyone else decided to do teaching also, & also the time the economy went belly up.
But, I was NOT going to stay in a career that I was unhappy in just because I was afraid of the types of comments you do see on here from time to time.

Not everyone knows teaching is for them at 18, just as not everyone getting into teaching at 30 is in it for the easy ride.

I guess my point is simply that it's not fair to tar everyone with the same brush.

Toto Wolfcastle

BoozyBabe wrote: »

I guess my point is simply that it's not fair to tar everyone with the same brush.

That's true. My own sister wants to be a primary school teacher and I would hate to think that she will be seen as jumping on the bandwagon.

However, there are a huge amount of people who are applying for teaching courses because they think it is a safe, secure, easy job. We, as teachers, all know that this is not necessarily true. However there is a general consensus amongst those that are not teachers than we have cushy jobs. I think that an awful lot of the people who are applying to teach believe this and will get a huge shock when they start teaching.

A PGDE student in his late 30s started in my school last year and left within a month. It wasn't for him. He couldn't handle it. Thank God he had the courage to leave. I'd imagine that there are an awful lot of people who don't.

lauralee28

As the thread starter here just wantes to clear something up. I was not referring to mature students or people who decide later in life to do teaching. I was referring to the huge number of people, since the economic downturn in this country who decide that they want to swithch jobs now or use their degree in whatever to start teaching.

Eccles

When I qualified it was almost standard practice for all 'normal' graduates (people with 'general' degrees) to either go on to do a post grad 1 year course in computers or teaching.There were no jobs and it was pointless to leave college with 'just a degree' -looks like the wheel has turned full circle again!

Powerhouse

Sorry in advance about the length of this post but it covers a number of issues raised but other posters.

The numbers wanting to do teaching has ‘skyrocketed’ largely because there are avenues there (at Primary level) that have not been available heretofore, and inevitably this will increase numbers applying.

There is also an issue that has been raised already and that is that it is relatively easy for a graduate to become a qualified secondary school teacher. Yes, you'll be told you’ll never get a job (especially with those subjects!) but people will qualify anyway because the actual investment in doing so is just one academic year so while the benefits might not be guaranteed/decent, the cost (time and intellectual input) is not prohibitive either.

Even before the relative ease of a one year Dip, there is also a more basic reality that points for traditional ‘teaching’ degrees i.e. Arts/Science are relatively low and attract high numbers. Inevitably many will turn to teaching as a possibility after doing courses that might not normally lead to huge possibilities in other industries, certainly without much extra study and training.

It is also a reality that there are few industries where you can just turn up unqualified and will be let do the job. This put the work on the same level as labouring. It, as has been suggested, demeans the notion of a "profession" and sends out signals that it is not a terribly difficult or skilled job. Teachers naturally – and not unreasonably - will argue otherwise but that is an inevitable perception which comes out of this reality. That too probably contributed to many deciding to do teaching because they could often (more so a few years ago than now obviously) walk into a substantial amount of work. Try going into a newspaper and walking out with three months’ journalism work? Or popping into the Dentist and being invited to fill teeth a couple of days a week?

From that perspective it might be understandable that some would hold the view that it is not the most exacting trade in the world. Yes, schools and circumstances differ, and some teachers will have it harder than others. But we are talking about perceptions and how they come about. They do not have to be massively well researched and founded in minute detail to be either reasonable or widespread.

And yes, while people will argue that the experience at the other side of the desk is vastly different from what we will all have seen during 14 years in school, people will inevitably make inferences regarding the job based on their own school-days, in a way that they could not do regarding say, Engineering or Carpentry or whatever. I think it is wrong - notwithstanding reasonable caveats about differences between the communal student experience and individual teacher experience – to suggest that this long experience as a student in utterly invalid. It must count for something and certainly informs perception anyway, and it is perception we are talking about since that is how most form their opinions.

One comment here earlier suggested that this (students’ own schooldays experience of their teachers) cannot be admissible as an opinion because no two schools are the same etc. If this is the case are we saying that teachers have to be retrained every time they change schools? I hardly think so. Yes, schools differ, but apart from the real hard cases - let’s be honest - it is hardly such a massively different experience from school to school that a student’s inferences are null and void. Do many 18 year old students going into the B.Ed not do so largely influenced by their own experiences in school? I would imagine they do. It seems strange to imply that this is suddenly invalid as a means of choosing a career.

One of the standard teaching responses to those who criticise that job and its exponents (who are almost always unfairly criticised it has to be said) is “why don’t you do it then?” or “we all filled out the same CAO form”. There are some difficulties with this. Why do teachers assume that criticism of them means the other people are jealous and are spoiled teachers themselves?




I criticise politicians – doesn’t mean I want to be one. The fact that others chose other work does not of itself make their criticisms ‘wrong’ or unreasonable. Of course the private-sector ‘living on the edge all the time’ and ‘I work much harder and longer than you’ types are annoying but shooting the message does not necessarily negate the message.


There is also the potential riposte to teachers who present their job as a misunderstood living hell – “why don’t you take up some other better paid and less stressful work then?” This thing works both ways and it little more than a playground jibe whichever side it comes from. Best ignored. The funny thing is – and I have noticed this a lot here – is that often the teachers who present the job as most difficult and demanding are the same one who say I love it. Such an extreme emotion rarely rides shotgun with harrowing experiences to be honest.

However, there is one area where teachers are disingenuous and needlessly defensive and that is with regard to hours and holidays. Notwithstanding corrections and extra-curricular activities, the hours are short. As they say on such discussion boards as this – Fact! Let’s be honest about that. Many teachers have at least the possibility of going home at least three/four hours before most other workers, and will often start later. That does not make teachers inadequate by way, it’s just that is should be acknowledged as a real benefit. (And I don’t mean the type of economic ‘benefit’ that should be taxed! – I mean it’s a real quality of life benefit that teachers should not be afraid to acknowledge they are grateful for and sod the begrudgers.)

I think there is a strong argument (and in fairness to teachers it is difficult to get this across to non-teachers) that the work in more intense and tiring than most other work. I have a brother-in-law who was a primary teacher and took a career break to work in the private sector in a much better paid job with foreign travel (all the trappings of “success”). He told me that he would never be as tired after work as he was when he was teaching. Yet, despite this, after a few years he decided to go back teaching.

Now to the question of holidays. Let’s be honest about this – you cannot have any discussion about teaching without considering the holidays. They are phenomenal by any standard. Most people get 18-25 days in the year. Teachers do not get just a few months during the summer - they work less than half the year. It is inevitable that people will question this. Here’s a question – how many people who are currently teaching would have entered the job, if they had just 20 days holidays in the year? Given the nature of public bravado it is difficult I suppose in a public arena such as this to be sure people would be honest about this but it is an interesting question to consider privately.

The available threads here don’t go back far enough but I certainly remember a few jeery threads started by teachers here when they got their summer holidays. They did not seem to be in dread of going cold turkey from their vocation for a few months. It seemed that they were quite pleased about the holidays – and why wouldn’t they be? But the view being espoused here that entrants to the job should not cite holidays as part of the attraction is laughable. Remember the old ‘three best things about teaching’ line?

An abstract discussion on teaching without reference to the holidays is like eating a Chicken Curry without the curry sauce – it becomes a different thing altogether. Take the holidays out and it is an utterly different job. Holidays are such a striking and fundamental part of the job conditions that it is impossible that anyone could talk about interest in teaching without even implied reference to holidays. It is not so much the elephant in the room as the Mammoth giving you a lapdance. The holidays are so extraordinary that inevitably they will attract comment.

There seems to be an attempt in this discussion to draw a distinction between the salt o’ the earth people already in permanent teaching jobs and with an obvious ‘vocation’ and the new-kid-on-the-block chancers trying get their noses on the trough only for the perceived perks of the job. I don’t believe such a distinction exists.

I think there are plenty of teachers in schools who contribute very little, couldn’t teach a fish to swim, are out of there like their arses are on fire at 3pm or 4pm, and will grab a half-day at the merest excuse. And such people it seems to me are almost inevitably in the permanent category. Likewise I believe there are plenty of massively enthusiastic and knowledgeable people out there in other work who would make excellent teachers. This ‘how dare you want to be a teacher’ attitude is ignorant and inappropriate. A work-place full of people who have never been in an environment other than the class-room can have its limitations.

mark renton

A little reality check here - teaching is also a job and if you dont see it as a vocation doesnt necessarily mean you are a bad teacher

gaeilgegrinds

I genuinely don't think anyone who teaches well looks on it as a job. I never saw it as that. I saw it as a calling.

Toto Wolfcastle

I completely disagree. You don't have to see teaching as a 'calling' to be a good teacher. And not all teachers who see it as a calling are good teachers. For many it is a job. It's an important job but it's just a job at the end of the day.

Powerhouse

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

I genuinely don't think anyone who teaches well looks on it as a job. I never saw it as that. I saw it as a calling.

I think if you accept money as the primary motive for doing it, it qualifies as a job. If you don't then perhaps high-minded expressions like a 'calling' might be appropriate. I have never met anyone, however enthusiastic, who falls into the latter category.

gaeilgegrinds

I give grinds for free to students who can't afford to pay for them, and despite starting on a 12 hour contract worked 20, I really don't think money ever motivated me.

mark renton

I am currently attending college for the purpose of obtaining a degree so I can then teach - I do not see it as a vocation, merely a job which I can do for many years rather than being stressed out in a job with a lot of pressure

yes the job does have an element of constructive purpose in it

Eccles

QUOTE rather than being stressed out in a job with a lot of pressure

Come back and say that in 5 or 10 years time John!!!

livinginkorea

kippy wrote: »

Everyone who has been to school has "shadowed" a teacher for a good part of their lives and has a good idea about what the job entails.
Theres far more careers out there where people have far less knowledge of the career before getting into it.

Eventhough we have always seen many teachers in action down through our school years that doesn't mean we know the ins and outs of teaching. We might think that we do but in reality teachers do a hell of a lot more than just standing at the top of the classroom. The main 'complaint' I got when training them (and this may be a cultural difference) is that they don't get respect from students when they start teaching and a huge amount of teachers worldwide quit the profession because of classroom management.

In Korea, a lot of backpackers come here and most don't give a fig about teaching, playing games and generally passing the time as quickly as they can, and the students may be marginally better off than when the 'teacher' came first. It annoys me when some Koreans look at me and expect games and fun and clowning around when I am the exact opposite. For people who want to be real teachers then there will always be a load of blow ins, career wasters who damage our image. I am worried that in Ireland the large increase of people wanting to be a teacher because of the economy and not because they seriously want to be will lead to reduced learning.

lauralee28

livinginkorea wrote: »

Eventhough we have always seen many teachers in action down through our school years that doesn't mean we know the ins and outs of teaching. We might think that we do but in reality teachers do a hell of a lot more than just standing at the top of the classroom. The main 'complaint' I got when training them (and this may be a cultural difference) is that they don't get respect from students when they start teaching and a huge amount of teachers worldwide quit the profession because of classroom management.

In Korea, a lot of backpackers come here and most don't give a fig about teaching, playing games and generally passing the time as quickly as they can, and the students may be marginally better off than when the 'teacher' came first. It annoys me when some Koreans look at me and expect games and fun and clowning around when I am the exact opposite. For people who want to be real teachers then there will always be a load of blow ins, career wasters who damage our image. I am worried that in Ireland the large increase of people wanting to be a teacher because of the economy and not because they seriously want to be will lead to reduced learning.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D(in case ye're curious about times of my posts I'm travelling, 9hours behind)

At last, someone who understands the thread I started and makes a VALID point!

Agent Smith

lauralee28 wrote: »

I read a lot of threads/queries posted lately and am baffled/amused at the amount of people who want to "get into secondary teaching with my degree", "branch out into teaching", "become a teacher" etc etc etc............

As someone who is a strong believer that teaching is a vocation, this really grates on me. In the current economic state of the country is teaching now seen as an easy option for people in other professions who suddenly decide they now want to "be a teacher"?

I am not suggesting that a person has no right to change career paths, that is normal and perfectly acceptable. Its just the number of people assuming that their various (a lot of the time non-teaching subject) degrees "qualifies me to teach X,Y,Z".

It frustrates me also to see posters inquire about "shortcuts" into teaching. It seems a lot of people are simply jumping on this bandwagon and it makes me feel slightly demeened as a professional who would never ask "i have a degree in english and history, can anyone tell me if this qualifies me as a nurse? If not can somebody suggest a year long online course that can give me a shortcut into nursing?"

Do these people realise the current job crisis among teachers??????????
Sorry for the rant, but have just read so many similar threads!

3 words


June July August

Toto Wolfcastle

Agent Smith wrote: »

3 words


June July August

Oi, read the charter. Constructive posts only. Turn that into a constructive argument and you get your birthday present.

TheDriver

On the basis that we won't see any increase in number of jobs for foreseeable future and temp teachers being let go (some of my friends on staff have not had contracts renewed) so if we thought it was bad over last 2 years with teachers trying to get hours after the Dip etc, I can only imagine how much disquiet there will be over the coming 2 years when people start graduating from far over quota teacher training courses. There are little or no jobs out there, fact. So this bandwagon is now a closed door nightclub, you must wait for someone to exit before you can even be considered for entry.

peanuthead

difference between wanting to be a teacher and choosing to be one for the sake of it:

Doing my dip next year in a school with this male colleague of mine. I'm out buying my stationery, getting my books together [bought most of them on adverts:D] and he's calling me up saying things like "Okay if we alternate the weeks we go to college, you give me your notes, I give you mine, it will be like we have been there all year"

And the best one yet "When were doing the essays, we can each pick one to research and then give the other a set of our research notes and we can save time doing our essays. Because we'll be doing the same essays" To which I reply. "No, we will we writing on the same topics - not writing the same essays"

What a lazy git??!!! I can't believe I'm going to be shouldered with this idiot all year. There is no way I'm sharing notes with someone who doesn't even have half the enthusuasm I have for the dip. Not to mention the fact that he got this place over someone who would probably really want it.

Dudess

I didn't realise this was a newish thing. I thought a lot of people always had the "I want to use my BA for x but if I don't get that, I can always go teaching" attitude.

It is something people need to think long and hard about all right - I've considered it every now and again and had chats with various teachers. There tends to be too much focus on the pluses and not enough on the tougher aspects, which can be in abundance. People who just choose teaching because of the holidays deserve all the grief they get.

TheDriver

It has always been there but more so now because of the totally misguided perception that there are teaching jobs. Its somewhat comical that people are complaining about civil service/overstaffed etc yet theres a grand big queue for teaching!
About the Dip Idiot, theres always plenty of them each and every year and some will turn out great, others are wasters. Natural progression will weed all the wasters out.I have seen plenty of people start teaching by subbing thinking it was a grand easy job and to be honest, none of them last.

Dudess

Ah, surely the notion there are teaching jobs isn't widespread...? :eek:

doctorwhogirl

peanuthead wrote: »

difference between wanting to be a teacher and choosing to be one for the sake of it:

Agree very much with this statement. But I think only the person applying for teaching knows the real answer. We can't just assume that they are jumping on a bandwagon. Even though it does grate on me when someone admits they are doing it on the basis of 'Ah sure teaching would be grand....'

mark renton

peanuthead wrote: »

difference between wanting to be a teacher and choosing to be one for the sake of it:

Doing my dip next year in a school with this male colleague of mine. I'm out buying my stationery, getting my books together [bought most of them on adverts:D] and he's calling me up saying things like "Okay if we alternate the weeks we go to college, you give me your notes, I give you mine, it will be like we have been there all year"

And the best one yet "When were doing the essays, we can each pick one to research and then give the other a set of our research notes and we can save time doing our essays. Because we'll be doing the same essays" To which I reply. "No, we will we writing on the same topics - not writing the same essays"

What a lazy git??!!! I can't believe I'm going to be shouldered with this idiot all year. There is no way I'm sharing notes with someone who doesn't even have half the enthusuasm I have for the dip. Not to mention the fact that he got this place over someone who would probably really want it.

now there are 2 ways of viewing this

as already pointed out above - he is a lazy git and you work hard

or - he is very easy going and you may be a little highly strung (hypathetical)

in my experience I have felt that I have learned more from easy going tutors

peanuthead

john47832 wrote: »

now there are 2 ways of viewing this

as already pointed out above - he is a lazy git and you work hard

or - he is very easy going and you may be a little highly strung (hypathetical)

in my experience I have felt that I have learned more from easy going tutors

I take your point completely - and yes I would tend to be a little, not highly strung, but lets say I have to be well prepared otherwise I would get stressed. Not very organised but getting better.

But this guy is just downright lazy. We work in a school where, although your subjects are, say, to use previous example, english and history, you may be asked to do the odd bit of maths or irish with 1st years.

He just can't do it. He'll go to the maths and irish teachers and bug them to prepare work for him. Theres nothing wrong with admitting you can't do something and asking for help/guidance, but he's unbelievable. Example:

I have first year Irish, what should I do with them?
Maybe a comprehension or some vocabulary
Where would I get that?
In the first year Irish book
Okay, do you have one of them [we have a room in our school where any teacher can access any book relating to any subject]
Em, okay, here you go.
Thanks. What page is it on?

I mean ffs!!!!:mad::mad::eek:

Okay you say, its not his subject. But here's the whopper. He does this with his own classes too. With the actual classes he teaches all year round, to the point that a couple of the subject teachers have actually told him to "fcuk off"

How people like him get through the net is beyond me - but I'm used to it. My own French teacher in school was the exact same. No parle francais, but I can tell you everything about the world cup that year!! :eek:

byhookorbycrook

If anyone is going into primary (can't speak for secondary) because of the holidays, they won't last the pace. 35 junior infants would soon sort the wheat from the chaff.

kippy

livinginkorea wrote: »

Eventhough we have always seen many teachers in action down through our school years that doesn't mean we know the ins and outs of teaching. We might think that we do but in reality teachers do a hell of a lot more than just standing at the top of the classroom. The main 'complaint' I got when training them (and this may be a cultural difference) is that they don't get respect from students when they start teaching and a huge amount of teachers worldwide quit the profession because of classroom management.

In Korea, a lot of backpackers come here and most don't give a fig about teaching, playing games and generally passing the time as quickly as they can, and the students may be marginally better off than when the 'teacher' came first. It annoys me when some Koreans look at me and expect games and fun and clowning around when I am the exact opposite. For people who want to be real teachers then there will always be a load of blow ins, career wasters who damage our image. I am worried that in Ireland the large increase of people wanting to be a teacher because of the economy and not because they seriously want to be will lead to reduced learning.

I see what your worried about but really I think you are incorrect in your assertations.
First of all, do you not think that a person at the age of 18 will have had far more exposure to teaching/teachers as a career than they will have had to the majority of any other career available to them. No matter how little they know about the background work they have a good idea about the job and what it entails. That is simply the point I am making. Is it not surprising that it is a popular career based on this alone? Whether or not this experince of teaching as a career is accurate or not is somewhat irrelevant in the point I am trying to make.

On your second point.
I'd like to point out that there have/are and always will be bad teachers in the system since teaching became a career. There have been recessions in this country before where people have made career choices based on money.
There are many people doing other types of work at the moment that I can imagine would make fantastic teachers, and more teachers that I have had personal experience with that shouldnt be in the profession. Do these people who decent degrees not deserve a chance in the world, a chance to teach?
Do not blame them if there are no jobs for "traditionally" qualified teachers. That is the fault of the government and dare I say it the Unions, who have, over the past few years allowed more and more avenues be opened for people so that enough teachers could teach our classes. Now we see class sizes being increased again and a complete cut in education budgets.

kmick

kippy wrote: »

Noone anywhere said that being in a classroom "qualified" you to be a teacher.

You did - see below.

kippy wrote: »

Everyone who has been to school has "shadowed" a teacher for a good part of their lives and has a good idea about what the job entails.

Powerhouse

I have already touched on this but it seems to have remained unread so I'll say it again. Some teachers here are portraying their job as hell on earth, utterly stressful and horribly demanding. There is a certain arrognace to this in that it seems to be implying that many of the new entrants could not possibly be capable of coping with this. It is impossible for any prospective teacher to know the actuality of the class-room until they end up there. This was also the case for those who are telling us about the pressure too. But the link between not perhaps fully appreciating difficult aspects of the job and not being able to cope when they emerge is being implied and that seems unfair and inappropriate.

There is also an assumption here that stress and pressure are two concrete labels which can be hung on a particular job. Stress and pressure are abstract, subjective things which affect people differently. You might find dealing with 25/30 children terrible, but somebody else might be a natural and much better at coping with this situation. They might be quite comfortable letting a bit of banter or messing go in the confidence that they can rein it in easily while another teacher might not be able to cope without complete control at all times.

The stress thing is often a bit of a non-argument anyway as it cannot really be challenged. If you say to a teacher "why do you stay in the job then?", you'll often get the "coz I luv it" riposte. As I often say if you do "luv it" how bad can it actually be? Or do you really think that you are that great that you can cope with/love a terribly stressful job that not many others can do?

Well, I have news for you - there are 60,000+ teachers around the country, very ordinary people, who teach year in year out. Some do it well, quite a few do it badly, the rest just get on with it. Much like most jobs really. But the idea that it is some kind of esoteric insuperable challenge only for the few doesn't stack up when you see you next door neighbour at it.

As for "do people not realise the jobs situation?" - yes, I am sure people do, but there are two answers to this, one is that many people will always determindly believe that there is one reality for the rest of the population but that it'll be different for them when their time comes, and the second is that the situation is not different in any other job these days. You wouldn't believe the number of unemployed Solicitors that are out there, to give just one maybe less than broadly publicised example.

Powerhouse

peanuthead wrote: »

I'm out buying my stationery, getting my books together [bought most of them on adverts:D]

Sorry, what books are you buying? You should get your school textbooks from the school and of what you need in college, you might buy one and get the rest in the library. Just that when you say you got most of them on adverts, it seems like a lot of books.

kippy

kmick wrote: »

You did - see below.

eh,
I said they had a "good idea" about what the job entails.......
I dont think I could go into the department of education and ask for a job as a teacher because I have a "good idea" of how to be a teacher.

People have a "good idea" about what a teaching job entails as opposed to an aeronautical engineer for example.
I by no means said that any tom, dick of harry was qualified to be a teacher because they had spent their lives in school. Hence was it not too surprising to see so many people chance their career choices when they realised that their initial career was not all it was cracked up to be?
Decent post there powerhouse.
Kippy

themusicman

Reading this with interest even though I should be doing something else with Thursday looming large into my view.

I do not think it is right to refer to teaching as a vocation. Apart from the superior overtones it can convey it has also been an excuse for too long to underpay teachers, nurses etc.....doing it for the love of and money should not come into it.

There are important issues being raised here in a number of different ways about non qualified teachers and the nature of the training teachers get. I did a con current degree so didnt go near dip/pgde but I am always astounded by 2 things..1 ..you get points in the interview process for teaching experience.....and 2....you dive in and teach after 1 weeks observation.

IMO no one should be let near a group of children in a position of leadership/responsibility without training first. I coach my childs football team and MUST have my badges according to my club. I think this is proper order and as a policy is appreciated by the parents. It is also in the best interests of the children.

Yet a person living near me rang the local primary school principal and armed with a BA and experience of children because"I have some" subbed virtually full time for a year.

Mixed messages....soul destroying for qualified teachers who cant get work....the simple question posed is which organisation is being most responsible.

Sorry for length of rant...first post here...love the quality of debate and felt I had to contribute