IFA

kakashka

IFA on RTE Rad 1 earlier complaining about new forms,seems that a lot of farmers complaining,was a poor effort to be honest,sorry but i dont know how to link to it

rrpc

kakashka wrote: »

IFA on RTE Rad 1 earlier complaining about new forms,seems that a lot of farmers complaining,was a poor effort to be honest,sorry but i dont know how to link to it

Kind of ironic that the IFA are complaining as they had a rep on the FCP who was semi-detached from proceedings by all accounts.

But of course if it's the IFA complaining the media sit up and listen :rolleyes:

marlin vs

I heard it, and it was the most miserable interview iv'e ever heard, the chap hadn't a clue what he was trying to say.

Rovi

It was on Drivetime earlier.
Here's a quick grab of the item:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4UllbvgSpQ

rrpc

I listened (through clenched and gritted teeth I have to admit). Listening to Philip Boucher-Hayes referring to inconsistencies in licensing numbers uncontested and calling John Deasy the catalyst for firearms legislation that was passed three years ago really took the biscuit.

If there's any justice, that gobsh*te should lose his seat in the next election*.




*Of course there is no justice and the gobsh*te will top the poll at the next election and be appointed Minister for Justice in the next government. Don't say I didn't warn you....

BornToKill

'Arising out of that there was a consultative panel established' - and the interviewee sat on that panel.

If there was 'an aspect which didn't receive much consideration' then why was that? Everyone knows that the form has problems but it's a bit odd for a panel member to be complaining about it.

PJ Hunter

muck is hitting the fan what farmers think about forms is well known. better having seperate form like one for restricted, rifle and shotguns

PJ Hunter

NEW FIREARMS LICENSING UNWORKABLE AND COUNTERPRODUCTIVE
IFA Countryside Chairman David Wilkinson today called on the Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern to rethink the newly introduced licensing system for firearms. Under the new legislation all gun owners are required to invest a huge amount of time satisfying complex and confusing red tape requirements.
Mr Wilkinson said, ‘this new system is a logistical nightmare which does not recognise the outstanding record of those who have legally held firearms in this country in the past. IFA Countryside has been inundated with complaints from worried members who are seriously considering abandoning the sport altogether.’
He concluded, ‘the licensing system should aim to keep firearms out of the hands of undesirables while making it user friendly for those who use them legally. IFA Countryside were at no point, during the firearms consultative panels meetings, informed that red tape of this degree was going to be introduced.”


ifa president padraig walsh to be at the game fair. many farmer think the extention was them renewed for the year, not just farmers up in arms, the fo asked whats on the restricted list and the 34 advice pages 9 page form and certs all about. dont ask me.

cavan shooter

IFA dont like forms full stop.

Sparks

You know, while it's nice to see public criticism, it would have been far nicer if the IFA rep had done his bloody job and spoken up in the FCP and solved the problem rather than go to the papers to get the IFA some press coverage before Lisbon. This isn't about the IFA membership's interests, it's political drum-beating before the IFA starts their Lisbon support campaign in earnest.

pedroeibar

The IFA comments are nonsense on farmer’s paperwork and fees. Admittedly, most nowadays would almost need a secretary with the amount of records they must keep and produce, from tests, tags, REPS, etc., so I have some sympathy for another long form. However, most only have a shotgun, stashed near the range or behind the kitchen door. The fee increase for that is only a fiver, spread over 3 years.
What I don’t understand is why there is little/no noise about the increase in fees from the shooting community?
Last year I paid a total of euro 75, or 225 for three years. (Rifle38, first shotgun 25, 2 subsequent @6=12)
This year I will pay euro80x4 or 320, an increase of 42%.
Browsing this board I cannot find any comment by CA or NARGC on the increase in fees. What was their input on this? Can you imagine the outcry if golf clubs or hurleys were similarly taxed?
Rs
P.

PJ Hunter

IFA Countryside has been inundated with complaints from worried members who are seriously considering abandoning the sport altogether.’
He concluded, ‘the licensing system should aim to keep firearms out of the hands of undesirables while making it user friendly for those who use them legally.

the ifa members can be busting clays one day, vermins the next. plenty of shotguns around. fair enough to be complaining if they want.

Sparks

IFA members to the IFA rep for not doing his job right, yeah, but that's not what this is PJ...

Grizzly 45

they had a rep on the FCP who was semi-detached from proceedings by all accounts.

Maybe it was abit above the guys head? As it didnt involve REPS pyments,EU grants,or Suckler scheme payments,or the price of Heifers in Ballydung mart???:rolleyes:

marlin vs

pedroeibar wrote: »

The IFA comments are nonsense on farmer’s paperwork and fees. Admittedly, most nowadays would almost need a secretary with the amount of records they must keep and produce, from tests, tags, REPS, etc., so I have some sympathy for another long form. However, most only have a shotgun, stashed near the range or behind the kitchen door. The fee increase for that is only a fiver, spread over 3 years.
What I don’t understand is why there is little/no noise about the increase in fees from the shooting community?
Last year I paid a total of euro 75, or 225 for three years. (Rifle38, first shotgun 25, 2 subsequent @6=12)
This year I will pay euro80x4 or 320, an increase of 42%.
Browsing this board I cannot find any comment by CA or NARGC on the increase in fees. What was their input on this? Can you imagine the outcry if golf clubs or hurleys were similarly taxed?
Rs
P.

Fair play to you pedroeibar, thank god someone is living in the real world,we're being ripped off, one time we used to get something back from the government in the line of a few pound for poults, but now it's all TAKE and more TAKE.

maglite

pedroeibar wrote: »

have a shotgun, stashed near the range or behind the kitchen door. The fee increase for that is only a fiver, spread over 3 years.

I can see a limted justification for this, I have known a farmer that needed access to his gun quickly as both the local fox and dog population hit his sheep hard, He kept a semi .22 with a fold able stock in the tractor cab.

Also
6*3= 18
80-18=62
62≠5.

PJ Hunter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Maybe it was abit above the guys head? As it didnt involve REPS pyments,EU grants,or Suckler scheme payments,or the price of Heifers in Ballydung mart???:rolleyes:

or knee deep in it. forms or get the sucklers castrated. is he farming full time

Sparks

maglite wrote: »

Also
6*3= 18

6 was for the subsequent shotguns.

And frankly, I'm happy the price has gone up for those.
I'm rather sick of paying out more for my air pistol than someone pays for a 12-gauge, and having to have more secure storage. We all have firearms; so we all should pay the same.

marlin vs

Sparks wrote: »

6 was for the subsequent shotguns.

And frankly, I'm happy the price has gone up for those.
I'm rather sick of paying out more for my air pistol than someone pays for a 12-gauge, and having to have more secure storage. We all have firearms; so we all should pay the same.

First time iv'e ever heard of someone being happy with a price hike,people with 12gauge's are on you'r side.

tonysopprano

So if he was paying €6 for the shotgun, it means that he had at least 1 other.

So pre-August 09
€25+6= €31 per year

Post Aug 09 means,
€26.66+€26.66 per year

€31 to €53.22 means raise of €22.22 per year = 71.68%

Now would this increase in shotgun fees (and the attempt to reduce shotgun( and firearms) numbers) have anything to do with the fact that shotguns are the most stolen firearms in Ireland, and also the firearm with the lowest security (stashed near the range or behind the kitchen door or in the cab) requirements.

I personally do not see any problem with this, as I take MY firearm security seriously and do not see why someone who is lax or lacking should cause me to pay more or take more precautions or suffer because of them.

On another note, are members of IFA and NARGC only now taking note as to who they got to represent them at FCP (when the were awake), and as to why other shooting organisations were questioning them?

rrpc

As a matter of interest, the licence fee intake from the new system over the next year will come to small change under twenty million quid.

That's enough to pay every district Superintendent, every dividional Chief Superintendent, the Commissioner and the Minister for a year.

There'd still be enough left over to build a very nice range

Sparks

marlin vs wrote: »

First time iv'e ever heard of someone being happy with a price hike,people with 12gauge's are on you'r side.

Sure they are - when they lobby for all firearms licences to be reduced in price. And if they do that, I'll happily help.

I get the feeling, however, based on the umpteen years that subsequent shotguns cost less than airguns, that that's not what will be lobbied for...

tonysopprano

My yearly fee pre-August 2009 was €104

My yearly fee post-August 2009 is €80

BUT my firearms were amonst the most HATED in society (if the tabloids are right).

So a bit of equalisation suits me, when I had to pay for safes, alarms, and in-car security just to own an equally lethal firearm. The days of begorra, he's only a farmer/redkneck/countryfolk and can't afford it are far behind us. If those aforementioned people had taken security seriously, as most of us do now, then we wouldn't be in this situation.

BornToKill

rrpc wrote: »

the licence fee intake from the new system over the next year will come to small change under twenty million quid.

In fairness, that's the intake for three years in effect.

tonysopprano

But it is still €20million in their bank now, with an election coming, and they can spend it now and leave whomever comes in less €20million.

Meyer

He concluded, ‘the licensing system should aim to keep firearms out of the hands of undesirables while making it user friendly for those who use them legally. IFA Countryside were at no point, during the firearms consultative panels meetings, informed that red tape of this degree was going to be introduced.”

I have to laugh at that bit from the IFA Statement. It seems everybody is waking up to late to the Ministers lie, that his handgun legislation would not affect the vast majority of Irish shooters.

rrpc

BornToKill wrote: »

In fairness, that's the intake for three years in effect.

It's also when all the work will be done.

So it's a fair analogy.

rrpc

Meyer wrote: »

I have to laugh at that bit from the IFA Statement. It seems everybody is waking up to late to the Ministers lie, that his handgun legislation would not affect the vast majority of Irish shooters.

Well what they're complaining about has nothing to do with what this Minister has introduced.

kakashka

Sparks wrote: »

This isn't about the IFA membership's interests, it's political drum-beating before the IFA starts their Lisbon support campaign in earnest.

More an effort(admittedly a sad sad effort) to appease the thousands of complaints recieved from members,most of whom knew nothing of this till it slipped through the letter box

kakashka

Sparks wrote: »

You know, while it's nice to see public criticism, it would have been far nicer if the IFA rep had done his bloody job and spoken up in the FCP and solved the problem

Absolutely...and if the IFA had bothered to consulted its members things MIGHT be a little different

ayapatrick

tonysopprano wrote: »

So if he was paying €6 for the shotgun, it means that he had at least 1 other.

afaik you could have had just one gun for €6. know a couple of guys that have! id say probably just for farmers though. and only 25 cartridge limit on it.

foxshooter243

ayapatrick wrote: »

afaik you could have had just one gun for €6. know a couple of guys that have! id say probably just for farmers though. and only 25 cartridge limit on it.

The 6 euro licence or vermin licence was just that, it allowed farmers and any one else to shoot vermin only-or clays only!-but you couldnt take game with it. The shotgun licence which cost 25 euro was an additional charge for a hunting licence which was incorporated with the gun licence.
Thats the way I always understood it anyways..

ayapatrick

foxshooter243 wrote: »

The 6 euro licence or vermin licence was just that, it allowed farmers and any one else to shoot vermin only-or clays only!-but you couldnt take game with it. The shotgun licence which cost 25 euro was an additional charge for a hunting licence which was incorporated with the gun licence.
Thats the way I always understood it anyways..

thats my understanding aswel!
just tonysoprano said that when he had the €6 license that he had at least 1 other gun at €25.
i was pointing out that ya didnt need a game hunting license to have a six euro vermin one.:)

deerhunter1

foxshooter243 wrote: »

The 6 euro licence or vermin licence was just that, it allowed farmers and any one else to shoot vermin only-or clays only!-but you couldnt take game with it. The shotgun licence which cost 25 euro was an additional charge for a hunting licence which was incorporated with the gun licence.
Thats the way I always understood it anyways..

correct

cavan shooter

At the Game fair yesterday there were IFA signs all over the place calling for this to be done and that to be done in relation to the the new licences.

The whole thing makes the IFA look as if they were asleep and to be honest it makes them look inept.
CS is goin on a rant so you may want to stop reading

The restructuring of the whole firearms licencing and fee structures has been on the cards at least 2 years, the NARGC had representitives on the FCP, and the FCP issued a report (cant think of the title ) which outlined the issues, the FCP and the NARGC through readers digest aswell as (NARGC magazine Gameshot, the website and regional meetings well and thoroughly advertised the changes and what people where doing to try "negotiate" the so called fee structure, if I remember €99 Euro was being muted as the cost for a 3 year licence, it is down to €80.

When you look at all this and now the IFA are up in arms it seems they missed the boat, I never once saw an article in the Farmers ournal.

As for the security arrangements about time they made it compulsory. What has been suggested is more than reasonable.

1 shotgun break it down (as if thats gonna happen) The cabinet should be compulsory (no licence no cabinet).

I am sick of the monty python "what has the NARGC or FCP or/??? done for us" that i keep listening too. Most of the ones whinging never attend meetings and dont get involved

rant over

rrpc

Just to add that the IFA had a rep on the FCP (the same guy who was interviewed on the radio) and as far as I know had a stand in going to many of the FCP meetings.

The only reason they're making all this noise is because their members are going mad, not having been informed of the changes in the system. If you recall the report issued by the shooting bodies on the FCP in March 2008, the IFA took part in that and yet seem to have forgotten about it.

It's an absolute joke the way they're now suddenly making a lot of noise. IFA members should know that these guys were asleep at the wheel.

Grizzly 45

This weeks Farmers Journal headline
"No EU grant available to fill in Firearms liscense form.":D:rolleyes:

PJ Hunter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This weeks Farmers Journal headline
"No EU grant available to fill in Firearms liscense form.":D:rolleyes:

no grizzly,the ifa want the license form scrapped:eek:

IFA Countryside were at no point, during the firearms consultative panels meetings, informed that red tape of this degree was going to be introduced.”

did the fcp meetings talk about the license red tape.

kakashka

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This weeks Farmers Journal headline
"No EU grant available to fill in Firearms liscense form.":D:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45
I detect a general dislike of farmers from you :eek:
Are they really so bad in your area?
Or was it a traumatic experience at some stage,talk to us,we can help:D:D:D

kakashka

rrpc wrote: »

Just to add that the IFA had a rep on the FCP (the same guy who was interviewed on the radio) and as far as I know had a stand in going to many of the FCP meetings.

The only reason they're making all this noise is because their members are going mad, not having been informed of the changes in the system. If you recall the report issued by the shooting bodies on the FCP in March 2008, the IFA did not take part in that nor did they issue their own report.

It's an absolute joke the way they're now suddenly making a lot of noise. IFA members should know that these guys were asleep at the wheel.

100% Agree and if it was the same chap interviewed who represented IFA on FCP then i'm not at all surprised that it's turned into a circus performance now.

Grizzly 45

kakashka wrote: »

Grizzly 45
I detect a general dislike of farmers from you :eek:
Are they really so bad in your area?
Or was it a traumatic experience at some stage,talk to us,we can help:D:D:D

Must be Kakash.:eek:
Born and bred ,grew up on a farm,worked on them, have a degree in agriculture.And the God given common sense to run may miles away from becoming one. :eek::DWhat bugs me about it is the money grubbing,and "demands" off the EU for money for any possible thing going.No other "industry" is more heavily subisidised in Ireland than farming.
A logical position of running a busisness,is if it doesnt make money,quit doing it! Not to mind the shoddiness and"ah shure twill do" attitude to fulfilling their side of the bargin.Or in this case.."But we are Farmers be dad!Shure laws dont apply to us!" attitude to everything from H&S to water pollution togun liscensing.

PJ Hunter

Shure laws dont apply to us!" attitude to everything from H&S to water pollution togun liscensing.

shure,shure. cast the first stone but how many shotguns licensed here:D

Sikamick

Quote from someone earlier today : But of course if it's the IFA complaining the media sit up and listen.

---

I would think they should, remember they (IFA) represent their members that give land permission to most Gun Clubs/Game Shooters and Ranges/Clay Pigeon Clubs and they represent the Farmers in Brussels. How many farmers hold firearms licenses?.

Question: When the FCP had their meetings was a copy of the FCA1 form produced, if so then all would have seen what was coming, if it was not produced then no one is to blame.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Question: When the FCP had their meetings was a copy of the FCA1 form produced, if so then all would have seen what was coming, if it was not produced then no one is to blame.

Sikamick

If it was just the form the IFA were complaining about. :rolleyes:

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

If it was just the form the IFA were complaining about. :rolleyes:

_____________________________________________________________

What comes to mind is the plank and splinter story, look into one's own eye, casting stones.

So much for trying to bring the people in the sport together, it seems there is a lot of glory hunting going on here (what we did or did not do):mad::rolleyes:

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

What comes to mind is the plank and splinter story, look into one's own eye, casting stones.

So much for trying to bring the people in the sport together, it seems there is a lot of glory hunting going on here (what we did or did not do):mad::rolleyes:

Sikamick

What comes to mind is the story of the boy who cried wolf. Did you actually listen to the interview on Radio 1 Mick?

Most of the complaints related to requirements under the 2006 CJA. These have been published since 2004 and have been discussed widely on here and at the FCP since they became law. They have also been very widely reported in the media (look at the press clippings thread). But the real irony is the guy who's making all the noise was the IFA's rep on the FCP and he sent a stand in to the meetings.

And this is not about glory hunting. It's about people making so much noise about stuff that they should have been paying attention to (and who had ample opportunity) that they're drowning out the more relevant and timely inputs of people who are actually on the ball.

And it's more than a bit rich looking for solidarity with the IFA, who stayed silent during the furore over the increase in license fees because their members weren't being hit as hard.

And this is not about the farmers, so stop creating straw men. It's about the IFA. Or is it just about taking a contrary view to me?

PJ Hunter

What bugs me about it is the money grubbing,and "demands" off the EU for money for any possible thing going.No other "industry" is more heavily subisidised in Ireland than farming.
A logical position of running a busisness,is if it doesnt make money,quit doing it! Not to mind the shoddiness and"ah shure twill do" attitude to fulfilling their side of the bargin.Or in this case.."But we are Farmers be dad!Shure laws dont apply to us!" attitude to everything from H&S to water pollution togun liscensing.

and this is not about the farmers is it:rolleyes:

rrpc

PJ Hunter wrote: »

and this is not about the farmers is it:rolleyes:

Well for me it's not, that quote's not mine, so don't be implying that it is please. Lot of friends are farmers and would share my views on the IFA. In fact it's where I get some of them

Sikamick

rrpc I have listened to the interview and yes it may have not been the strongest performance but the interviewee was not given the chance to cover all of the problems that he see's with the firearms application form. The format of the interview did not allow enough time for him to develop his arguments.

One spoke does not make a wheel just as one spokes person does note make an organisation.


Please refer to the copy of the IFA Countryside press release by Chairman Mr. David Wilkinson posted in this thread by PJHunter. What is relevant is what is happening now, not what happened at FCP meetings in the past, as far as I have been told a draft copy FCA1 application form in its present format was never put before the Sporting Bodies Reps for finalisation.

But there was a copy used for courses by an un-elected member of the FCP days before the Garda had it on their website. Is this again about who you know and not what you know.

Were there other reps from the shooting sports at the FCP meetings and did all of them defend their members rights to the full or did the have to give a little to get a little.

Other people from the sporting bodies have done interviews and have been castigated for not being strong enough in representing the sport, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Who was the bright spark that came up with individuals cant import firearms or ammunition and must now go through a firearms dealer, was it the DOJ alone or were they given the idea by vested interest who may have put this in as a submission. Was this and the FCA1 form ever discussed at the meetings and if so were these items agreed on.

Why are people finger pointing at an organisation that is now trying to do something about the FCA1 form, they could not have done anything about it until they had seen it and if they got to see it so did the other NGB'S, my opinion only.

When are people in our sport going to come together, when are we going to stop the finger pointing and backstabbing.


Sikamick

Grizzly 45

PJ Hunter wrote: »

and this is not about the farmers is it:rolleyes:

If you are going to quote somone ..Have the decency to quote the whole post,not cherrypick what suits.:mad:
If the shoe fits....As I said,I am speaking as a ex, been there ,seem it ,done it,bought the T shirt,muck on the wellies,farmboy.

The IFA and it's attitude that they,and farmers. are owed some extra special position in Irish and EU society is one major reason I would want nothing to do with farming as a career.

Sika,I think the problem is now ,is getting all huffed about somthing when it is law comes under the "too late to matter" category of things.
IFthis rep of the IFA was on the ball on the FCP,wouldnt he have known that his members of his organisation would go ape about somthing like this?They go crazy over every other bit of extra paperwork that comes in the door!
IF the IFA had kicked then,you can be sure there would be a very different law on the books now.BUT it seems the IFA rep wasnt even there ,but sending underlings in to the meeting.
That kind of puts it then in perspective of importance this was to the IFA.Somwhere down in the "what color of wellies will be in fashion at the ploughing championships",category of things.

As you said and I am sure it did happen,deals were being cut in the meetings,before,during and after.BUT the thing is;things were being done there.Not after the fact,when it is too late.
Think we should be asking ourselves a couple of things.
WHY is it that as a race,when we have the opportunity to influence things
that affect us,we stay sthumm,and after it is law ,when it is twice as hard to change,we are up in arms and filling the airwaves about it?
Why,as you said do we not attempt to sing of the same sheet,without trying to cut each other up by getting a mefein better deal to the detriment of others??

PJ Hunter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If you are going to quote somone ..Have the decency to quote the whole post,not cherrypick what suits.:mad:
If the shoe fits....As I said,I am speaking as a ex, been there ,seem it ,done it,bought the T shirt,muck on the wellies,farmboy.

The IFA and it's attitude that they,and farmers. are owed some extra special position in Irish and EU society is one major reason I would want nothing to do with farming as a career.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Must be Kakash.:eek:
Born and bred ,grew up on a farm,worked on them, have a degree in agriculture.And the God given common sense to run may miles away from becoming one. :eek::DWhat bugs me about it is the money grubbing,and "demands" off the EU for money for any possible thing going.No other "industry" is more heavily subisidised in Ireland than farming.
A logical position of running a busisness,is if it doesnt make money,quit doing it! Not to mind the shoddiness and"ah shure twill do" attitude to fulfilling their side of the bargin.Or in this case.."But we are Farmers be dad!Shure laws dont apply to us!" attitude to everything from H&S to water pollution togun liscensing.

grizzlys quote. moved to the agriculture forum if theirs one.

nothing to do with shooting is it:mad: back on topic;)

rrpc I have listened to the interview and yes it may have not been the strongest performance but the interviewee was not given the chance to cover all of the problems that he see's with the firearms application form. The format of the interview did not allow enough time for him to develop his arguments.

One spoke does not make a wheel just as one spokes person does note make an organisation.


Please refer to the copy of the IFA Countryside press release by Chairman Mr. David Wilkinson posted in this thread by PJHunter. What is relevant is what is happening now, not what happened at FCP meetings in the past, as far as I have been told a draft copy FCA1 application form in its present format was never put before the Sporting Bodies Reps for finalisation.

But there was a copy used for courses by an un-elected member of the FCP days before the Garda had it on their website. Is this again about who you know and not what you know.

Were there other reps from the shooting sports at the FCP meetings and did all of them defend their members rights to the full or did the have to give a little to get a little.

Other people from the sporting bodies have done interviews and have been castigated for not being strong enough in representing the sport, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Who was the bright spark that came up with individuals cant import firearms or ammunition and must now go through a firearms dealer, was it the DOJ alone or were they given the idea by vested interest who may have put this in as a submission. Was this and the FCA1 form ever discussed at the meetings and if so were these items agreed on.

Why are people finger pointing at an organisation that is now trying to do something about the FCA1 form, they could not have done anything about it until they had seen it and if they got to see it so did the other NGB'S, my opinion only.

When are people in our sport going to come together, when are we going to stop the finger pointing and backstabbing.


Sikamick