a third of property being taken over by NAMA is not even in Ireland!

ei.sdraob

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bad-bank--to-take-over-euro3bn-in-us-properties-1864668.html

The bad bank is expected to take over up to €90bn worth of toxic loans from the banks over the next year, in the process becoming one of the biggest property owners in the world.

€3bn (thats €3,000,000,000 9 zeros!) in US property
€25bn in UK property

unspecified as of yet amount in Germany, East Europe and Dubai

:eek:


why does with every passing day the news about NAMA just get worse?
:mad:

Lovelyjaws

Surely taking over an internationally diversified property portfolio is actually better for Nama?

who what when

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

Surely taking over an internationally diversified property portfolio is actually better for Nama?

And considering that uk property prices are on the rise again, would it be correct to assume that the 25 billion debt over there is safe enough and may even return a profit?

ei.sdraob

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

Surely taking over an internationally diversified property portfolio is actually better for Nama?

think about this for a minute

if they take over land here in Ireland they can do anything they wish with it such as build roads and schools

they have no such powers in other countries

and some of these places like Dubai are downright dodgy, their King could go mad and say "all foreigners out", unlikely to happen but remember its not a democracy and in some respects very dodgy

also the property prices in US have collapsed by a huge amount

UK property prices have also tumbled by a bit, not as much as here but they did fall



and finally theres no mention of how much of the property is commercial, thats the real time bomb

.

Lovelyjaws

The problem with that is we don't have the money to fund new schools and roads.Irish property values will continue to go down for a while yet.If the portfolio is more diversified NAMA has a greater chance of being profitable or at least breaking even.

The UK portion should be pretty safe and Dubai is far from dodgey!

The commercial side will pick up as the world economy improves.Irish commercial property is pretty fooked though.

ei.sdraob

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

The problem with that is we don't have the money to fund new schools and roads.

i wonder why we dont have money :rolleyes:

that 90b will buy alot of roads, schools and you name it

i suppose theres nothing for developers and banks then

Sponge Bob

Unlike roads and schools NAMA will manage assets belonging to genuine friends of FF, ie developers and bankers

Lovelyjaws

Even if NAMA was abandoned right now we don't have the have the money for anything.Our country has been screwed by the property crash and the world recession.Unfortunately both hit in 2008.The country is basically on it's knees.

Lovelyjaws

I'm not a fan of NAMA.All I'm saying is that we should be happy some of the property to be taken over is in economies that will recover faster than the Irish economy.A 100% Irish property portfolio would be too much of a burden for NAMA.

irish_bob

all this before any mention of all the property bought in eastern europe

ei.sdraob

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

Even if NAMA was abandoned right now we don't have the have the money for anything.Our country has been screwed by the property crash and the world recession.Unfortunately both hit in 2008.The country is basically on it's knees.

so by your line of thinking

we should also dig our grave while we are on our knees

climb into it

and die

:rolleyes:

NAMA is a terrible joke, proposed at a very bad time


our GDP is €134billion

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html

NAMA is €90+ billion




do people just blank out and dont realize how much money is being stolen from then and their kids

Naz_st

who what when wrote: »

And considering that uk property prices are on the rise again, would it be correct to assume that the 25 billion debt over there is safe enough and may even return a profit?

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

The UK portion should be pretty safe and Dubai is far from dodgey!

As far as I know, NAMA would be taking the "bad" debts off the banks (i.e. those that are highest-risk of default). Any loans on property that is likely to go up in value probably won't fall into NAMA...

I.e. NAMA gets all the sh1te, and the banks keep the "safer" stuff.

ei.sdraob

Naz_st wrote: »

As far as I know, NAMA would be taking the "bad" debts off the banks (i.e. those that are highest-risk of default). Any loans on property that is likely to go up in value probably won't fall into NAMA...

I.e. NAMA gets all the sh1te, and the banks keep the "safer" stuff.

hence the name "toxic debt" and "bad bank"

i mean they are not even pretending its not "bad" or "toxic" and so far no one was wise enough to invent a euphemism for this

Lovelyjaws

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so by your line of thinking

we should also dig our grave while we are on our knees

climb into it

and die

:rolleyes:

NAMA is a terrible joke, proposed at a very bad time


our GDP is €134billion

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html

NAMA is €90+ billion




do people just blank out and dont realize how much money is being stolen from then and their kids

Did you see my other post? Ya NAMA is crap but we had the double whammy of a world recession and a property crash which obviously did a huge amount of damage.The reality is an economy doesn't exist without a stable financial system.

Luckily the irish banks weren't involved too much in the credit derivatives mess or we'd really be fooked

ei.sdraob

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

Did you see my other post? Ya NAMA is crap but we had the double whammy of a world recession and a property crash which obviously did a huge amount of damage.The reality is an economy doesn't exist without a stable financial system.

Luckily the irish banks weren't involved too much in the credit derivatives mess or we'd really be fooked

let the banks fail or the market sort itself out

banks can come in from outside of ireland and cherry pick customers

i dont see why I as a tax payer should be paying for mistakes of bankers and builders, and whats worse now my savings are at risk because they ****ed up the whole system for everyone

Lovelyjaws

if the banks fail who will lend money?How will people start businesses?If the banks fail everyone's savings will be lost and the goverment would be in no position to compensate anyone.It's not nice but bailing out the banks is the best way to go.

bleg

The beginning of Irish Imperialism!

400 years too late!!

ei.sdraob

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

if the banks fail who will lend money?How will people start businesses?If the banks fail everyone's savings will be lost and the goverment would be in no position to compensate anyone.It's not nice but bailing out the banks is the best way to go.

new banks would arise with a clean slate

or banks external to Ireland would come in

all NAMA does is spread the pain over many decades it doesn't make all the toxic **** go away, well it does by shifting it from people responsible for the mess to people that weren't

SkepticOne

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

if the banks fail who will lend money?How will people start businesses?If the banks fail everyone's savings will be lost and the goverment would be in no position to compensate anyone.It's not nice but bailing out the banks is the best way to go.

If there' money to be made lending in Ireland then there'll be no shortage of foreign banks lending here.

chalkitdown

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

The problem with that is we don't have the money to fund new schools and roads.Irish property values will continue to go down for a while yet.If the portfolio is more diversified NAMA has a greater chance of being profitable or at least breaking even.

The UK portion should be pretty safe and Dubai is far from dodgey!

The commercial side will pick up as the world economy improves.Irish commercial property is pretty fooked though.

Dubai is definitely dodgy and fast going down the toilet. Whatever plan Fianna Fail come up with should be opposed as they are only interested in protecting the developers, not the people.

The priority should be allowing property to fall to a realistic level, the people most affected are those that speculated on property and they deserve to lose as they, the banks and Fianna Fail directly created the bubble.
Instead what we have are Fianna Fail idiots that are trying to underpin the still ridiculously high prices.

Any loans which involve property abroad should not be sheltered in NAMA.

Niall Keane

http://celticmeltdown.webs.com/nama.htm

an alternative?

MiniDriver

From what I understand, the Irish property holdings in the UK are generally speculative BTL appartment developments in large UK cities (Manchester, Leeds etc.) - this stuff is utter crud whose value will eventually track to near-zero.

SkepticOne

MiniDriver wrote: »

From what I understand, the Irish property holdings in the UK are generally speculative BTL appartment developments in large UK cities (Manchester, Leeds etc.) - this stuff is utter crud whose value will eventually track to near-zero.

NAMA is going to pretend the assets are worth more than that and continue pretending until, however long it takes, things pick up.

irish_bob

MiniDriver wrote: »

From what I understand, the Irish property holdings in the UK are generally speculative BTL appartment developments in large UK cities (Manchester, Leeds etc.) - this stuff is utter crud whose value will eventually track to near-zero.

not near as cruddy as the stuff in eastern europe or dubai

chalkitdown

Niall Keane wrote: »

http://celticmeltdown.webs.com/nama.htm

an alternative?

Interesting, and a much better proposal than the current idiotic notion.

But what about all the poor tax break bloodsuckers?

It's far too equitable a solution for the farmers party.

Fat_Fingers

I don't think people really get what the level of injustice this is.
Fianna Fail is saving their golf buddies in the banks ( anyone got prosecuted yet, no?) and their biggest donors - developers and builders.
So Liam Caroll gets taxpayer to look after his 1.2 Billion or is it 2 Billion??? There will be 50 of them saddling taxpayer with 50 + billion. Liam gets to keep his 100+ companies and his vast wealth and taxpayer gets to have higher tax, less investment in hospitals, schools , roads and we be lucky to come out of it in 20-30 years. In the meantime busniss as usual for Mr Liam and Co... Prefab school for his kind, no way... private school . Public hospital ? I think not. Crime problems? Not where he lives...
Working class and middle class will disappear into poverty but its ok as long as Fianna Fail is looking after themselves and their buddies.
What is the system we live in?? Its not capitalism because in capitalism Liam and his buddies including most of the banks would go up the wall so they may learn from their incompetence and greed.

ei.sdraob

MiniDriver wrote: »

From what I understand, the Irish property holdings in the UK are generally speculative BTL appartment developments in large UK cities (Manchester, Leeds etc.) - this stuff is utter crud whose value will eventually track to near-zero.

the figure of 33Billion was quoted in a previous thread for the amounts of loans taken by people in Ireland in last few years for BTL

crazy amount considering BTL adds absolutely no value to economy and produces no real wealth for economy since its a parasitic economic practice

loobylou

Naz_st wrote: »

As far as I know, NAMA would be taking the "bad" debts off the banks (i.e. those that are highest-risk of default). Any loans on property that is likely to go up in value probably won't fall into NAMA...

I.e. NAMA gets all the sh1te, and the banks keep the "safer" stuff.

According to the Minister of Finance, ALL property related loans above a value of €5m will be taken into NAMA.

Fat_Fingers

Niall Keane wrote: »

http://celticmeltdown.webs.com/nama.htm

an alternative?

This one is as bad as NAMA. I did not buy second home and did not "released the equity" in my home just to buy new car or to put the deposit down for second home or that holiday home in Turkey/Bulgaria/Romania. I know a few people who did this. What i did is pay my mortgage and any extra cash i had put it towards paying of the mortgage.

That proposal suggest to take the taxpayers money and pay of the half of the outstanding mortgage for everyone. Plain silly, same people who released the equity now would be rewarded for not been prudent with their finances.

ei.sdraob

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

This one is as bad as NAMA. I did not buy second home and did not "released the equity" in my home just to buy new car or to put the deposit down for second home or that holiday home in Turkey/Bulgaria/Romania. I know a few people who did this. What i did is pay my mortgage and any extra cash i had put it towards paying of the mortgage.

That proposal suggest to take the taxpayers money and pay of the half of the outstanding mortgage for everyone. Plain silly, same people who released the equity now would be rewarded for not been prudent with their finances.

exactly this only rewards the people with mortgages and who took a gamble

not fair on people who didnt buy into the whole property bubble

hows this for an alternative to NAMA

spend the money on education, health, roads, creating jobs

or for that matter stop borrowing as much money and try balance the damned budget


throwing money down the NAMA black hole is such a bad financial move its makes me wonder whether some people gone blind altogether

what happened to prudency and common sense

SkepticOne

Good alternative to the current NAMA here by Dr. Constantin Gurdgiev (via the property pin).

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2009/08/nama-30-more-weight.html

One of the key points here is that share and bond holders should be first to take the hit which is actually the normal course of events. NAMA is designed so they are protected and the full burden of their lack of judgement falls on the tax payer.

Naz_st

loobylou wrote: »

According to the Minister of Finance, ALL property related loans above a value of €5m will be taken into NAMA.

I was just going by the FAQ on the NAMA site:

"NAMA will buy loans from the participating banks – these loans will be from the riskiest part of the bank portfolios"

Presumably, the banks will want to keep the less risky loans that they will be likely to profit from in the long-term and unload the no-hopers onto NAMA.

ei.sdraob

anybody else have a huge problem with complete lack of transparency in NAMA?

we are giving them a frigging 90billion+

doesnt the taxpayer at least deserve to know where and to whom it goes?


why can i see more and more tribunals (that amount to nothing but a bigger waste of more money) emerging out of this over next few decades

NotorietyH

Naz_st wrote: »

Presumably, the banks will want to keep the less risky loans that they will be likely to profit from in the long-term and unload the no-hopers onto NAMA.

Yes but the banks aren't exactly in a strong negotiating position. I've read in a few places that NAMA will be taking on some 'good' or 'non-toxic' loans too. I assume to at least have some chance of recovery the money invested. I don't think the banks are really going to get much of a say in which loans they get to hold on to.

Naz_st

NotorietyH wrote: »

Yes but the banks aren't exactly in a strong negotiating position. I've read in a few places that NAMA will be taking on some 'good' or 'non-toxic' loans too. I assume to at least have some chance of recovery the money invested. I don't think the banks are really going to get much of a say in which loans they get to hold on to.

I wouldn't bet on it. (Oh wait, as a taxpayer I guess I am betting on it! :rolleyes:)

Seriously though, I don't think it makes much sense to package up the good debts with the bad. NAMA is a bad bank, it's mandate is to take all the risky debts from the Irish banks and leave them in a stronger position going forward. That's certainly what all the official documentation on the NAMA website suggests at any rate.

jmayo

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

Surely taking over an internationally diversified property portfolio is actually better for Nama?

You would think but US property market has had terrible drops, so with Uk and Dubai, well does anyone want to buy and island the shpe of Ireland :rolleyes:

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

Did you see my other post? Ya NAMA is crap but we had the double whammy of a world recession and a property crash which obviously did a huge amount of damage.The reality is an economy doesn't exist without a stable financial system.

Luckily the irish banks weren't involved too much in the credit derivatives mess or we'd really be fooked

Yeah it coudl be worse :rolleyes:
Are you living in cloud la la land.
Anglo is a basket case to rival anything the Icelandic or US has had.
IN has been shown to be sitting on sh** loans with the whole Thomas Reed jokers little escapade in Kilternan.
AIB's lack of underwear has been highlighted by Carrolls little difficulites.
They are all in serious trouble and it is all home (pardon the pun) grown.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

exactly this only rewards the people with mortgages and who took a gamble

not fair on people who didnt buy into the whole property bubble
...

what happened to prudency and common sense

Screw that, no bailouts for personal mortgage holders who jumped on the bandwagon, no bailouts for hotels, private hospitals etc.
Only grants and money for home grown entities that generate employment and export earnings.

BTW commonsense and prudence were sold for a few quid in order to buy another apartment complex in Sunny beach

bleg

ei.sdraob wrote: »

new banks would arise with a clean slate

or banks external to Ireland would come in

Ireland: Hey everybody!!! Ireland needs new banks!!!!

Everybody: Oh really? What happened to the old ones?

Ireland: Never mind that!

ei.sdraob

bleg wrote: »

Ireland: Hey everybody!!! Ireland needs new banks!!!!

Everybody: Oh really? What happened to the old ones?

Ireland: Never mind that!

it wasn't Ireland that screwed up the banks its the banks that screwed up Ireland

dont forget that

loobylou

Naz_st wrote: »

I was just going by the FAQ on the NAMA site:

"NAMA will buy loans from the participating banks – these loans will be from the riskiest part of the bank portfolios"

Presumably, the banks will want to keep the less risky loans that they will be likely to profit from in the long-term and unload the no-hopers onto NAMA.

By "riskiest part" they mean the land and development part of the banking business.
http://www.finance.gov.ie/Viewprnt.asp?DocID=5875&StartDate=1+January+2009

Victor

who what when wrote: »

And considering that uk property prices are on the rise again, would it be correct to assume that the 25 billion debt over there is safe enough and may even return a profit?

Umm, wasn't there a big drop (a) in sterling prices (b) the value of sterling?

SkepticOne

loobylou wrote: »

According to the Minister of Finance, ALL property related loans above a value of €5m will be taken into NAMA.

He's been going around saying that there will be some good loans taken into NAMA among the bad but this is because it is very hard to know in advance the degree of impairment of the loan. Better to quickly transfer everything that is likely to drag the banks down and in this case it is property and development loans. But if there's anything good in there it will be by chance. It kind of defeats the purpose of helping the banks if good assets are going to be transferred out of them.

Nama is going to make an immediate loss as the initial transfer will be at the pretend "economic value" above the market value. It will then make greater losses as developer businesses deteriorate and the value of the underlying security falls further.

Purple Gorilla

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so by your line of thinking

we should also dig our grave while we are on our knees

climb into it

and die

:rolleyes:

NAMA is a terrible joke, proposed at a very bad time


our GDP is €134billion

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html

NAMA is €90+ billion




do people just blank out and dont realize how much money is being stolen from then and their kids

Our GDP is €191 billion

SLUSK

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

if the banks fail who will lend money?How will people start businesses?If the banks fail everyone's savings will be lost and the goverment would be in no position to compensate anyone.It's not nice but bailing out the banks is the best way to go.

Competent bankers from other countries can buy up these banks. Why not let the market work, if you did you would not have these problems we see today. Banks act the way they do because they know they will always get a bailout. So the bubbles will only get worse and worse until everything collapses.

Purple Gorilla

I think it's because we don't have enough indigenous big companies in Ireland as it is...If we let our banks go then that's even less big Irish companies that we have left

SLUSK

So you want to save the incompetent because of patriotism? I would rather see every Swedish company crash than me having to pay one cent in taxes to save them.

Purple Gorilla

It's not patriotism. We can't just survive on FDI alone. Foreign companies have no loyalty to here. They can pack up when they want and move somewhere cheaper whereas indigenous companies generally keep their HQ and much employment within the country.

I would have expected that now, more than ever, people would realise that we need to strengthen our indigenous industry rather than just put all our strength into attracting FDI.

AlekSmart

anybody else have a huge problem with complete lack of transparency in NAMA?

+ 1 on the opaque glass box withion which the Nama stone lies.....

This thing stinks to high-heaven,but it`s not the sickly sweet stench of putrfying Property Magnates and friends of Fianna Fáil...no its the expensive gentlemens scent of the 19th hole where the current little difficulties can be sorted without TOO much acrimony.... :P

At this point,as Mr Cush SC prepares to yet again attempt a wind-up of a High Court Judge perhaps we should hold a referendum to call in the IMF and be done with it..?

The risks inherent in allowing the same gang who got us into the mess to try and get us out is WAAAY to much for my liking !!!!

ei.sdraob

AlekSmart wrote: »

perhaps we should hold a referendum to call in the IMF and be done with it..?

I can already imaging FF campaigning for a NO in such a referendum

imagine these posters on every lampost!

"NO NO! Rather the thieves you know than IMF! vote NO"