UPC do something nice, refuse to block Pirate's Bay

GerardKeating

According to the store on various news sities, including RTE.

Hogzy

Whats the point, its going legal anyways!

Barrypr

Ya it was purchased recently but in the article it also states:

"Similar High Court proceedings by the music firms against Eircom were settled earlier this year. Under the settlement, the record companies will supply Eircom with the internet protocol (IP) addresses of all persons who they detect illegally uploading or downloading copyright works. Eircom agreed that it would disconnect any broadband subscriber who failed to comply, following a warning they were acting illegally. The music firms wanted UPC to agree to similar measures."

How are record companies getting these ip address, is it a case of them going after sites like rapidshare, trying to get them to had over databases!

Kensington

Interesting how to see this pans out. UPC is not a small, debt ridden company like Eircom is and I'd imagine would have a lot more muscle in a legal case.

Barrypr wrote:

How are record companies getting these ip address, is it a case of them going after sites like rapidshare, trying to get them to had over databases!

They're only targetting Bit Torrent services at present. They basically have computers connecting to loads of popular torrent seeds. Any basic Bit Torrent program allows you to view the IPs of all computers connected to the torrent - all they do is capture all the IPs and the relevant date and time, trace the ISP who owns the IP block and then forward the letters to this ISP. If it's an Eircom IP, for example, and it was you with that IP at the time, you'll then get a letter!

NullZer0

If this is the case, the record companies would have to verify the integrity of the IP addresses that they provide.

I don't think this is going to be easy to do. In the PirateBay case AFAIK a screenshot didn't suffice and I certainly wouldn't settle for it.

Aswel as this, the record company would have to verify that it was said data, to do this they would have to download the data (which would mean they would seed it too).

I don't know about you but that sounds like more of a "sting" operation so I don't know how that holds up in court.

Barrypr

Little update on pirate bay's plans:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/19/ggf_plans_for_legal_pirate_bay/

Some_Person

Fair play UPC, I hope all other ISPs take UPC's stance.

Hogzy

Some_Person wrote: »

Fair play UPC, I hope all other ISPs take UPC's stance.

Everyone but Eircom so far... Predictable though, i hope Eircom loose alot of their subscribers for that move!!!

mehmeh12

So UPC are going to block pirate bay? And here i was about to switch over to them :eek:

Some_Person

No...Eircom is going to block access, UPC are NOT going to block access and they intend to defend their position.

donmeister

mehmeh12 wrote: »

So UPC are going to block pirate bay? And here i was about to switch over to them :eek:

Did you read this thread at all? Even the title?

Amalgam

UPC aren't doing it to defend the rose tinted semantics of your right to download, they're doing it because there's no basis in Irish law for them to do what the Irish Record companies are asking them to do.

Eircom are arseholes, or geniuses.. because if you have even the slightest idea how this whole online lark operates, it basically works its way around blocks like this, much like water seeping into wet soil.. where there's a will, there's a way.

Agreeing might give the company room to manoeuver (legally) if things progress (for the worst) at a later date.

Barrypr

This is the start of it, The great Firewall of Ireland!! :eek:

Solair

Well, if the record industry asked An Post to destroy packages that it the industry suspected contained illegal non-copyright material, there'd be shock/horror and uproar.

If they want to shut down pirate bay, go after pirate bay! It's really nothing to do with the Irish internet service providers, all they do is provide a pipe that connects you to the internet.

As pointed out too, UPC is on a whole different scale to eircom. It's a huge organisation and one of the largest broadband suppliers in the world.

They will be quite capable of defending their position.

mehmeh12

donmeister wrote: »

Did you read this thread at all? Even the title?

My bad..i was a bit tired when i wrote that last post :rolleyes:

In a slighlty different note i've been trying to get through to chorus ntl customer support...i get to the automated message that tells you your button options...i click 1 and the phone is always busy! Been doing this the past three days! Is customer service always like this?

Solair

mehmeh12 wrote: »

My bad..i was a bit tired when i wrote that last post :rolleyes:

In a slighlty different note i've been trying to get through to chorus ntl customer support...i get to the automated message that tells you your button options...i click 1 and the phone is always busy! Been doing this the past three days! Is customer service always like this?

Try them off peak if at all possible, i.e. not over lunch and not between 5 and 7pm. It's the same with Sky - I was on hold for 50 mins trying to get my HD box sorted with them! If you don't have time try : http://service.upc.ie/contact/form

sharms

it's not "NICE" as you put it is irresponsible. Why dont u take ur hand outta ur pocket and pay 4d music u r stealing

joolsveer

sharms wrote: »

it's not "NICE" as you put it is irresponsible. Why dont u take ur hand outta ur pocket and pay 4d music u r stealing

Where do I get music downloads for four pence per track?

Solair

sharms wrote: »

it's not "NICE" as you put it is irresponsible. Why dont u take ur hand outta ur pocket and pay 4d music u r stealing

It's not irresponsible. If the music industry wants to go after Pirate Bay, they should go after Pirate Bay directly, not ISP who do not really have any control over what's going through their network.

If we continue down this route, we'll have all sorts of organisations requesting that ISPs block content to protect their business interests and potentially serious problems with censorship.

An ISP is no different from the Post Office, they do not know what is in the envelopes, they just carry them.

Sleipnir

sharms wrote: »

it's not "NICE" as you put it is irresponsible. Why dont u take ur hand outta ur pocket and pay 4d music u r stealing

Only if you promise not to use textspeak when typing.

sharms

joolsveer wrote: »

Where do I get music downloads for four pence per track?

ur payin d illegal websites not the artists or record companies.. steal away i know what will eventually happen to u nd sure honestly i suppose ur doin every1 a favour because when they decide to issue proceedings against u they'll get der money back plus some

RangeR

Hogzy wrote: »

Whats the point, its going legal anyways!

That's irrelevant. Blocking one site, regardless of what it is, sets precedent. It will be known that UPC / eircom / whatever bow to a little pressure.

Cabaal

sharms wrote: »

ur payin d illegal websites not the artists or record companies.. steal away i know what will eventually happen to u nd sure honestly i suppose ur doin every1 a favour because when they decide to issue proceedings against u they'll get der money back plus some

less of the text speak please,
You have a full keyboard infront of you please use all of it

mehmeh12

Solair wrote: »

Try them off peak if at all possible, i.e. not over lunch and not between 5 and 7pm. It's the same with Sky - I was on hold for 50 mins trying to get my HD box sorted with them! If you don't have time try : http://service.upc.ie/contact/form

I will try to call them sometime later i guess..if they ever pick up..can't help but feel that there is only one person answering the phone.

And in that form to fill in on that link...my hotmail, gmail and ucd email will all not be accepted for some reason..says these emails are invalid..but they work for most other things...

the_syco

Amalgam wrote: »

Eircom are arseholes, or geniuses.. because if you have even the slightest idea how this whole online lark operates, it basically works its way around blocks like this, much like water seeping into wet soil.. where there's a will, there's a way.

The latter, as Eircom don't have to give anyb info to anyone, and since they have to give no info, does the no info include telling them they shut down anyones connection?

mehmeh12

In relation to Ireland specifically have Eircom actually prosecuted people for illegal downloading? can they they cut people off BB after three strikes?

sharms

mehmeh12 wrote: »

In relation to Ireland specifically have Eircom actually prosecuted people for illegal downloading? can they they cut people off BB after three strikes?

they have indeed prosecuted people for illegal downloading but as of yet they are not in a position to cut off anyones broadband

vibe666

mehmeh12 wrote: »

In relation to Ireland specifically have Eircom actually prosecuted people for illegal downloading? can they they cut people off BB after three strikes?

i don't think eircom will actually do anything about it.***

sure they might send a letter or two out, but at the end of the day, record companies have no access to anything other than IP addresses at specific times and dates, eircom is the only one with actual customer details and since 99% if eircom customers are on dynamic IP's, who's to say that the same IP downloading stuff 3 times is the same user except eircom?

they're under no obligation to provide user info to record companies so i reckon they'll just fob them off any time is comes up with the "dynamic IP, different user" defence so they don't need to disconnect anyone.

can you imagine how many people would jump ship if eircom actually started kicking customers off? not exactly what a company with as much debt as eircom has needs to help it stay afloat is it?

***this is just my opinion, i've no evidence for or against this POV, it's just what I think.

EDIT:

sharms wrote: »

they have indeed prosecuted people for illegal downloading but as of yet they are not in a position to cut off anyones broadband

do you have any proof of this?

mehmeh12

sharms wrote: »

they have indeed prosecuted people for illegal downloading but as of yet they are not in a position to cut off anyones broadband

I dont suppose you know of any high profile cases? How much can a prosecution cost you? Does this make you a criminal?

sharms

vibe666 wrote: »

i don't think eircom will actually do anything about it.***

sure they might send a letter or two out, but at the end of the day, record companies have no access to anything other than IP addresses at specific times and dates, eircom is the only one with actual customer details and since 99% if eircom customers are on dynamic IP's, who's to say that the same IP downloading stuff 3 times is the same user except eircom?

they're under no obligation to provide user info to record companies so i reckon they'll just fob them off any time is comes up with the "dynamic IP, different user" defence so they don't need to disconnect anyone.

can you imagine how many people would jump ship if eircom actually started kicking customers off? not exactly what a company with as much debt as eircom has needs to help it stay afloat is it?

***this is just my opinion, i've no evidence for or against this POV, it's just what I think.

EDIT:
do you have any proof of this?

ha yes but it certainly aint for boards

Hellrazer

vibe666 wrote: »

not exactly what a company with as much debt as eircom has needs to help it stay afloat is it?

Wouldnt look good to that Singapore telecoms company that put in an offer to buy them last week either.

seamus

I think IRMA are onto a losing battle here, especially given that there's no basis in Irish Law for what they're asking UPC to do, and judging by their comments on Newstalk this morning, they really haven't got a clue about the web which renders them incapable of defending their position.

A spokesman for IRMA said two key things this morning which illustrates what a complete pack of muppets they are:

1. "It's effectively just a pipe through which the product flows, and UPC can just block that pipe".
2. "A business model cannot be developed for the music industry which suits the internet"

I think IRMA need an "Internet for Dummies" book and a link to iTunes.

The simple fact is that the vast vast majority of people, when looking for media (be it music or video), will take the easiest route, not necessarily the cheapest one. If the online delivery method is simple to understand and it works consistently, then most people will choose that route, even if they have to pay a nominal fee for it.

Torrents aren't *that* simple for Joe Soap and the quality (both of the files and the connection) are variable.

On the other hand, if the only delivery method available is via filesharing, or the legit methods are too expensive (e.g. €25 for an album), then people will take the illegal route.

The Irish record companies need to wake up and realise that they can't fight the internet. It will beat them. Rather than trying to hold back the waves, they need to pick up a surfboard and work with them.

vibe666

sharms wrote: »

ha yes but it certainly aint for boards

hey, if you can't prove it, then it didn't happen, boards rules.

also known as the "pics or gtfo" rule.

(joking, in case the smileys didn't give it away)

Hellrazer

seamus wrote: »

The Irish record companies need to wake up and realise that they can't fight the internet. It will beat them. Rather than trying to hold back the waves, they need to pick up a surfboard and work with them.

Its not just the Irish record companies that need to realise that--Its a worldwide problem.

seamus

Hellrazer wrote: »

Its not just the Irish record companies that need to realise that--Its a worldwide problem.

IRMA seems to be particularly slow though. So much so that I'm fairly sure they have learning disabilities. The Americans are still resistant, but they've begrudgingly accepted that their "products" have to have an online delivery component, and the days of physical media are well and truely numbered.
IRMA seem incapable of seeing both the truth and the opportunities in this situation.

vibe666

seamus wrote: »

2. "A business model cannot be developed for the music industry which suits the internet"

I think IRMA need an "Internet for Dummies" book and a link to iTunes.

just read on engadget (or possibly the register) this morning that 25% of music sales in the US go through itunes and that the expect it to account for more sales than CD's by the end of 2010.

I think it just doesn't suite their business model of making vast truckloads of cash off the back of recording artists for very little actual effort.

anyone can release music on itunes with a little effort and a small amount of cash without having to involve any mega-sized record companies and I'm pretty sure they can see that their time is almost over and they're just trying to stretch it out as long as they can.

RangeR

vibe666 wrote: »

just read on engadget (or possibly the register) this morning that 25% of music sales in the US go through itunes and that the expect it to account for more sales than CD's by the end of 2010.

And here it is

Engadget wrote:

According to the number crunchers at NPD Group, the trend that came to a head last year when Apple beat out Wal-Mart for the title of largest Stateside music retailer is continuing apace. That's right -- one in four songs sold in America is sold on iTunes, while Wal-Mart (including CD sales through retail stores, sales through their website, and Wal-Mart Music Downloads) holds the number two position at 14 percent. And number three, if you're morbidly curious, is Best Buy. In addition, 69% of all digital music sold in the US comes from the iTunes store, with Amazon ranking second at 8 percent. When talking formats, the CD remains the most popular at 65 percent, but as some dude named Russ Crupnick (NPD's vice president of entertainment industry analysis) notes, "with digital music sales growing at 15 to 20 percent, and CDs falling by an equal proportion, digital music sales will nearly equal CD sales by the end of 2010." Which can only be a good thing, if it means that we'll never have to step into a Wal-Mart again. Sales of ringtones and sales to consumers under 13 were not tabulated, which means the data may incorrectly skew away from purchases of The Wiggles' Go Bananas! and that Crazy Frog song.

vibe666

RangeR wrote: »

And here it is

that's the one.

it's certainly a business model that is working for someone.

galwayfeen

...Now they're trying to sue them because they didn't do what they were told to do:pac:
http://www.enn.ie/story/show/10125359

Amalgam

What gets me is I'm not convinced it is just the music being available that is a problem to the likes of IRMA, it is the very way in which music is managed and released.

A lot of the 'activity' of music industry personnel revolves around promoting and levering artists into a market slot and promoting the result, fanning the flames to get income, for the labels and hopefully, when the air has cleared, whatever's left for the artist.

You do get this feeling various people and groups would be so happy if the internet just '****ed off' or was dictated to by a very small group. Reinstate the middle men, so to speak.

It is not about loss of market share, it is about control, at the very root of it.

RangeR

Amalgam wrote: »

It is not about loss of market share, it is about control, at the very root of it.

Agree 100%

PaddyTheNth

mehmeh12 wrote: »

In relation to Ireland specifically have Eircom actually prosecuted people for illegal downloading? can they they cut people off BB after three strikes?

sharms wrote: »

they have indeed prosecuted people for illegal downloading but as of yet they are not in a position to cut off anyones broadband

Pretty sure Eircom haven't prosecuted anyone for illegal downloading. It's possible that IRMA and/or other rightsholders may have taken cases against people here, but Eircom sure as hell haven't.

Technically Eircom can cut you off as per their T&Cs. I haven't heard of them actually disconnecting anyone yet with regard to this issue.

Delighted to see UPC standing up to IRMA, who appear to have the same understanding of how the internet functions as a hamster.

TheDeficit

the most annoying part of this deal is that eircom seem completely comfortable doing this, would any isp operating in a nation where there is genuine competition even consider this?

RangeR

TheDeficit wrote: »

the most annoying part of this deal is that eircom seem completely comfortable doing this, would any isp operating in a nation where there is genuine competition even consider this?

eircom don't have the money to fight anything.

Thor

Ha Upc:1 Eircom:-12

i for one am glad i no longer have eircom.

i bet if they asked eircom to block youtube they would bend over and do it.

eircom have infact opened this up. IRMA aren't going to stop there. loads of sites are going to be blocked and eircom will have no choice but to do it as they can't afford to say no.
there should be a law to stop anyone from asking any isp from blocking anything on the internet.

i can see eircoms new advertising now.

7MB Broadband For 39.99 with 50gb Allowance.(terms and conditions apply)(access to The Pirate Bay Prohibited)

GerardKeating

sharms wrote: »

it's not "NICE" as you put it is irresponsible. Why dont u take ur hand outta ur pocket and pay 4d music u r stealing

The Pirates Bay is about more than just music, there are

• Films
• Software
• TV programs
• Games

-osborne-

Eircom might not have the balls to stand up to the IRMA, But all the bigger internet providers will because if Vodafone etc.) Have to implement these policies in this country they will eventually have to do it in all the countries they operate in and I doubt they would look to favourably in implementing these policies cutting off people connections ,losing revenue

craichoe

Aye,

UPC are quite big, since they bought up NTL and Chorus, I'm getting their 120mbps package when i move house

http://www.upc.nl/internet/internet_120/

More for the 10meg up more than the 120 down

eamonpendergast

Does anybody know if Eircom plans to block access to just the PirateBay site, or to all the PirateBay trackers also? There's a world of difference there...

Also, to those of you complaining about stealing music and how blocking access to the site is a good thing, I have 2 points:

1) The PirateBay also indexs torrents to freeware and unlicienced material, which is totally legal. These will also be blocked by the move, what right have they to block access to that material?

2) Would you still be happy if YouTube was blocked? YouTube can have copyrighted material on their site too (until it's removed at least...) Google can be used to search for torrents as easily as the PirateBay, what if they are next?

Amalgam

It doesn't matter anymore...

http://thepiratebay.org/

They're gone. Not direct action, but their provider is under threat of heavy fines..

http://digg.com/tech_news/The_Pirate_Bay_Taken_Offline_By_Swedish_Authorities

Events have overtaken Eircom's upcoming block, all in the last hour or so..