A friend becoming a priest

ShooterSF

Hey guys just wanted to pitch this to see what you would think in this situation. A friend of mine has recently began the process of becoming a priest, something he has threatened for years (usually when drunk and hitting on chicks). On one side of the coin I'm happy if he's happy and as long as he enjoys it who am I to argue with him. Then on the other hand I feel he's throwing his life away on something ludicrous. I know I'd risk being a hypocrite if I was to tell him this or try and change his mind (we do have good spirited discussion on religion at times but that's it). I'm not sure what to do. If you were in my shoes what would you do?

Sam Vimes

Bring him to the A&A beers and we'll take the piss out of him until he changes his mind

ShooterSF

Nice idea but he's off the beer, doing a vow of silence and all that malarky..

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Goduznt Xzst

ShooterSF wrote: »

Then on the other hand I feel he's throwing his life away on something ludicrous.

Interesting... what would you recommend he do with his life that wouldn't be "throwing his life away". I'm assuming it's some ideal that you know that will bring happiness to your life that you wish your friend to adopt also.

Your actions in this matter goes as far as asking "Will doing this make you happy?", if his answer is "Yes", then any attempts to sway his decision should not even be considered. You wish your friends happiness, not a life that you wish them to lead.

ChocolateSauce

Well...at the end of the day it is his choice. By all means tell him what you think, but there isn't all that much you can do. Personally, I'd let him know I lost respect for him; that might change his mind.

Zillah

Start calling him a pedophile.

On one hand it might shame him into stopping this farce, on the other it'll at least prepare him for life as a Catholic priest. It's win win.

CerebralCortex

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Well...at the end of the day it is his choice. By all means tell him what you think, but there isn't all that much you can do. Personally, I'd let him know I lost respect for him; that might change his mind.

I'd be of the same opinion. There is only so far a person can push the boundaries of friendship and respect.

ChocolateSauce

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'd be of the same opinion. There is only so far a person can push the boundaries of friendship and respect.

Agreed. It's sad, but it happens. I've certainly lost friends because they made choices I didn't agree with, and vice versa I'm sure. Friends come and go in life.

philologos

If it is what he wants to do, it is what he wants to do. No doubt he will have enough encounter with the faith in Maynooth over the next 7 years. If your suspicions are correct about lack of sincerity he probably won't stay for the entirety of the course studying things like Greek and New Testament theology, Old Testament theology.

I don't see why this has to stop you being friends.

Dades

If you could become a priest like you can get married in Vegas then I'd be more concerned. But as Jakkass And donegalfella suggest you need to commit for a long time before you're let take vows or anything.

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

...I don't see why this has to stop you being friends.

I got a good joke for ya:
A priest and an atheist walk into a bar together.

No seriously I don't think there very compatible world views. I personally can't stand priests especially of the catholic type. The implications on the way one has to behave as a priest are life altering and I've no doubt it would colour a persons interaction with others in a negative way.

ShooterSF

Cheers guys, I guess I already knew the answer. If he's happy I'll leave him at it other than or usual friendly chats we normally have. I guess my inability to wrap my head around such a desire had me mixed up.
He's not the typical stanch type but he is strong if not intrusive in his beliefs so I wouldn't be shocked if he went the whole way with it. I didn't know it was that tough though. Again, if it makes him happy I wouldn't wish to see him fail.

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't see why this has to stop you being friends.

I'm not pickin on the cristian here, I promise. It was just an easy sentence to quote. For a guy with devout beliefs he never brings them up unless were doing the usual banter. Outside of that he is actually a sound chap and I have no intention of dropping my friendship with him. Unless he starts trying to "save my soul" :pac:

In a twisted way I can kinda understand fundamentalist religious people's desire to "persuade" people because they're sure they're right and the other people are wasting their life. I'm not saying they're right by the way but I had a similar urge to "help" a friend because I think his beliefs are wrong.

ChocolateSauce

There is no reason I couldn't be "mates" with a priest, but I consider a friend to be in a different league. I can't be a person's friend if I don't respect them and their choices, and becoming a priest would, to me, be a public statement of eternal and unquestioning support for a series of beliefs I don't respect, a worldview I think is wrong and an institution I think shouldn't exist. They would ultimately be a soldier for organised ignorance, something which is antithetical to the qualities I need in a friend.

philologos

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

There is no reason I couldn't be "mates" with a priest, but I consider a friend to be in a different league. I can't be a person's friend if I don't respect them and their choices, and becoming a priest would, to me, be a public statement of eternal and unquestioning support for a series of beliefs I don't respect, a worldview I think is wrong, an institution I think shouldn't exist, and ultimately a soldier for organised ignorance.

If someone believed in God, and was open about their faith to those who asked him, and in general confident about their faith in public, you are essentially saying you couldn't be their friend because you disagree with them. I find this strange, because many of my friends don't believe in God, but they know full well that I am a Christian, and that I am proud of my faith.

I don't see this as unquestioning. Entering into any form of ministry is usually the result of long thought. It mightn't be in the OP's case, but it could well be. To say that faith is unquestioning, seems alien to me anyway.

bangersandmash

Zillah wrote: »

On one hand it might shame him into stopping this farce, on the other it'll at least prepare him for life as a Catholic priest. It's win win.

Seriously that's the kind of response I would expect from a one-post teenage troll, not someone with over eight-thousand posts under their belt.

There are plenty of valid arguments for rejecting organised religion which I would wholly concur with. But the kind of generalisation you've employed is as crass and unthinking as the beliefs you reject.

There's nothing more repulsive than a friend, acquaintance or colleague who proselytizes and insists that all their social contacts must share their belief system or lack thereof. That applies as much to a formally ordained member of an organised religion as it does to a casual poster on an internet forum.

philologos

Although I agree with the sentiment of your post bangersandmash. I wouldn't say all proselytism is bad, it depends on what kind of motivation one has, is it out of selfish ambition, or out of compassion for another?

Zillah

"Crass and unthinking". Nice.

I may be glib but don't misinterpret that as immaturity.

Zxyton

Personally I am horrified by the advice that has been given!

This is your friend's life and your friend's decision. I am a vegetarian but I don't spend every meal time judging and stigmatising my friends for eating meat. If I did I would have no friends left and I wouldn't deserve them. If I want my friends to respect my decision I owe it to them to respect theirs in return. Friends don't have to agree on everything. But they do need to respect and support each other. Personally, while I don't agree with the Catholic ethos, I think your friend deserves praise for following his dream and is very brave for becoming a priest given the stigma they face. I wish him well

bangersandmash

Zillah wrote: »

"Crass and unthinking". Nice.

I may be glib but don't misinterpret that as immaturity.

Crass. Unthinking. Glib. Immature.

These are all words I would associate with anyone accusing a man or woman of being a pedophile without fair justification. It lessens the impact of the actual crime.

I honestly believe you have convincing arguments for your beliefs and you seem to have articulated those arguments well in the past. Leave the fear-mongering and trite generalisations to the people you argue against.

5uspect

Zxyton wrote: »

, I think your friend deserves praise for following his dream and is very brave for becoming a priest given the stigma they face. I wish him well

Well, they did a good job to earn that stigma.

ChocolateSauce

Jakkass wrote: »

If someone believed in God, and was open about their faith to those who asked him, and in general confident about their faith in public, you are essentially saying you couldn't be their friend because you disagree with them. I find this strange, because many of my friends don't believe in God, but they know full well that I am a Christian, and that I am proud of my faith.

Not because I disagreed with them; I disagree with my friends over things frequently (at this very moment I'm sitting beside my best friend, and he hates Richard Dawkins (:eek:)). I couldn't be friends with a priest because they would have chosen to spend their life promoting something I think is the biggest thing wrong with the world.

Could you be friends with an abortion doctor? There are just some professions one cannot respect. For me, I count preists among them. A preist might be a great guy, nice, charming, polite, ernest, and these are all reasons to like him and respect his character, but I couldn't respect his profession.

bangersandmash

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

There are just some professions one cannot respect. For me, I count preists among them. A preist might be a great guy, nice, charming, polite, ernest, and these are all reasons to like him and respect his character, but I couldn't respect his profession.

To be fair, if you were to consult the posters on Boards in this matter you would have a very long list. Do you respect politicians, auctioneers, estate agents, solicitors, builders, pharmacists, taxi drivers, or those without employment? Would you shun their company? And would they hold your chosen profession in high esteem?

If so then that's perfectly acceptable. But to me it seems that diversity isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it doesn't necessarily preclude long-term friendships. Exclude those who don't share your beliefs or meet your arbitrary level of respect for a choice of career, and you're likely to end up with a very limited echo-chamber of acquaintances.

philologos

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Could you be friends with an abortion doctor? There are just some professions one cannot respect. For me, I count preists among them. A preist might be a great guy, nice, charming, polite, ernest, and these are all reasons to like him and respect his character, but I couldn't respect his profession.

I'd like to think so. I'd disagree with what he did, but ultimately this person is a person like everyone else. I would try as best as possible to explain my views calmly on the subject (some people think I come across very strongly, and sometimes I do, but most of the time I'm relatively calm when discussing my beliefs with friends), and of course get to know more about the person apart from what they do at work.

Zillah

bangersandmash wrote: »

Crass. Unthinking. Glib. Immature.

These are all words I would associate with anyone accusing a man or woman of being a pedophile without fair justification. It lessens the impact of the actual crime.

You don't actually know what glib means do you? I was being facetious. Wait, er...I was being "not-serious". Yeah that should do it.

Turtwig

You know as strange as it may sound I wouldn't actually object in the slightest to this if it was one of my friends. I think it would give us an opportunity to have excellent discussion re theism, and either one would convince the other or we'd both strengthen our understanding of our various stances

As long as my friend goes with a 'sane' religion I'd be fine with it:)

bangersandmash

Zillah wrote: »

You don't actually know what glib means do you? I was being facetious. Wait, er...I was being "not-serious". Yeah that should do it.

Making offensive or offhand comments and then resorting to the defence of purporting to be glib or sarcastic is pretty cowardly. Better to either stick by your comment or retract it.

Zillah

bangersandmash wrote: »

Making offensive or offhand comments and then resorting to the defence of purporting to be glib or sarcastic is pretty cowardly. Better to either stick by your comment or retract it.

Who is this guy?

I'm going to stick to my comment as the glib and offensive joke that it was.


Do you actually think I was seriously recommending that he continuously call his friend a pedophile?

Turtwig

Zillah wrote: »

Do you actually think I was seriously recommending that he continuously call his friend a pedophile?

Nah I think s/he was just pissed at your homage to RC priests, and frankly I don't blame him/her. It was an unnecessary comment to make.

bangersandmash

Zillah wrote: »

Who is this guy?

I'm going to stick to my comment as the glib and offensive joke that it was.


Do you actually think I was seriously recommending that he continuously call his friend a pedophile?

I just think it was hardly a useful piece of advice to the OP who came here with a serious dilemma. It's not exactly an issue that deserves glib or offensive comments. But really this is a pretty pedantic matter for all concerned. Apologies if this riled anybody.

Turtwig

bangersandmash wrote: »

I just think it was hardly a useful piece of advice to the OP who came here with a serious dilemma. It's not exactly an issue that deserves glib or offensive comments. But really this is a pretty pedantic matter for all concerned. Apologies if this riled anybody.

Ehh split personalities??;)




Fair Play..

Zillah

Malty_T wrote: »

Nah I think s/he was just pissed at your homage to RC priests, and frankly I don't blame him/her. It was an unnecessary comment to make.

I read this in the paper this morning: New York City has a priest shortage. To give you an idea how bad it is, earlier today in Brooklyn an alter boy had to grope himself.

bangersandmash

Malty_T wrote: »

Ehh split personalities??;)




Fair Play..

Indeed. I've heard some ruffian Northsiders use Fair Play in a glib manner. Shocking I know

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Turtwig

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ok, I know we're getting off topic but I actually find that many theists love to have these debates (and frankly I love em too). Yes there are a few people who are a stubborn as fcuk but the same goes for some atheists too.
Also, does anyone notice that once one person has had alcohol (non drinker here:)) a debate about life and religion is usually just around the corner:)
Strange how in everyday life some of us are afraid to discuss it ...

drkpower

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

There is no reason I couldn't be "mates" with a priest, but I consider a friend to be in a different league. I can't be a person's friend if I don't respect them and their choices, and becoming a priest would, to me, be a public statement of eternal and unquestioning support for a series of beliefs I don't respect, a worldview I think is wrong and an institution I think shouldn't exist. They would ultimately be a soldier for organised ignorance, something which is antithetical to the qualities I need in a friend.

Wow.
What a friend to have, eh....

Would the same apply to a cousin, a brother, a child.....? Would you continue to have a relationship of significance with anyone if they chose to become a priest?

CerebralCortex

Malty_T wrote: »

....As long as my friend goes with a 'sane' religion I'd be fine with it:)

Sane religion? What's that?

ShooterSF

bangersandmash wrote: »

I just think it was hardly a useful piece of advice to the OP who came here with a serious dilemma. It's not exactly an issue that deserves glib or offensive comments. But really this is a pretty pedantic matter for all concerned. Apologies if this riled anybody.

Not to undermine your opinion but while it was a serious question I find that it's great to have the ability in life to see a joke for what it is. To be honest I laughed, I have teased (in a very friendly manner) my mate along those lines too. I think the issue is with text, tone is very hard to see.
I'm going off my own topic now though and offering my opinion on humour!

Cheers for all the replies again guys.

Hollyg'lightly

Perhaps you could be of the 'whatever your havn yourself' philosophy, easier for everyone in the scheme a things. As in if he wants to do that then let him fire away, you might not appreciate if he was to say put rain on your parade.

CerebralCortex

drkpower wrote: »

Wow.
What a friend to have, eh....

Well that's point isn't it they wouldn't be friends would they?

drkpower wrote: »

Would the same apply to a cousin, a brother, a child.....? Would you continue to have a relationship of significance with anyone if they chose to become a priest?

I feel a high horse cliche on it's way.

philologos

Malty_T wrote: »

Also, does anyone notice that once one person has had alcohol (non drinker here:)) a debate about life and religion is usually just around the corner:)
Strange how in everyday life some of us are afraid to discuss it ...

I've noticed this as well. The desire generally comes after a drink or two for most of my friends, outside the context of Christians discussing their faith together. Although I have had people ask me about my faith whilst sober, it isn't anywhere near as common.

drkpower

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I feel a high horse cliche on it's way.

What is it, tell me....

Turtwig

drkpower wrote: »

What is it, tell me....

*Suspense*

Zillah

Hollyg'lightly wrote: »

Perhaps you could be of the 'whatever your havn yourself' philosophy, easier for everyone in the scheme a things. As in if he wants to do that then let him fire away, you might not appreciate if he was to say put rain on your parade.

I agree that in principle it's a nice idea but that's not how it works. I can say "Do and believe whatever you like as long as it doesn't interfere with me!" But in the grand scheme of things it does interfere with me. We live in a democracy, and if there are a large number of people listening to the Pope then I end up living by the Pope's rules. Abortion, gay marriage, education -- there's loads of stuff that is influenced by religion. So if a friend of mine becomes a priest he is becoming an advocate of a range of principles that I despise.

drkpower wrote: »

Wow.
What a friend to have, eh....

Would the same apply to a cousin, a brother, a child.....? Would you continue to have a relationship of significance with anyone if they chose to become a priest?

You can choose your friends. I'd imagine a family member becoming a priest would cause some difficulties, and I don't want to speak for him but I would guess he's not going to disown them.

Also bear in mind he did draw a difference between 'mate' and 'friend', the implication being that a mate is someone you're friendly with but not necessarily all that close with, while a friend is someone that is an important and integrated part of your life. I seriously doubt that I could ever consider a priest a friend.

drkpower

Zillah wrote: »

You can choose your friends. I'd imagine a family member becoming a priest would cause some difficulties, and I don't want to speak for him but I would guess he's not going to disown them.

Also bear in mind he did draw a difference between 'mate' and 'friend', the implication being that a mate is someone you're friendly with but not necessarily all that close with, while a friend is someone that is an important and integrated part of your life. I seriously doubt that I could ever consider a priest a friend.

Many, if not most people, have maybe one or two friends who are pretty much as close as family. The friend or two that you grew up, have known for decades, were your best men etc etc...

What I find disappointing is that such a friend would be either disowned or demoted to "mate" status on the basis of a change or alteration in their own beliefs, even if I was vehemently opposed to such beliefs.

And if such a friend would be so demoted, surely the attitude would be essentially the same for a close family member? That is even more depressing.

Zillah

drkpower wrote: »

What I find disappointing is that such a friend would be either disowned or demoted to "mate" status on the basis of a change or alteration in their own beliefs, even if I was vehemently opposed to such beliefs.

Would you ever 'demote' a friend, as you put it, for any sort of change in beliefs? I'm just wondering if this is specifically a religion issue or a 'what a friend means to me' issue.

If a friend became a neo-nazi? Y'know, they hang around with a weird crowd, get convinced that a zionist conspiracy to overthrow the white man, black people are lesser people, all that crazy stuff. Would they be 'demoted' in your mind?

And if someone felt as strongly against the Catholic Church as you do against neo-nazis, would that not make your position hypocritical?

drkpower

Zillah wrote: »

Would you ever 'demote' a friend, as you put it, for any sort of change in beliefs? I'm just wondering if this is specifically a religion issue or a 'what a friend means to me' issue.

If a friend became a neo-nazi? Y'know, they hang around with a weird crowd, get convinced that a zionist conspiracy to overthrow the white man, black people are lesser people, all that crazy stuff. Would they be 'demoted' in your mind?

And if someone felt as strongly against the Catholic Church as you do against neo-nazis, would that not make your position hypocritical?

Of course, there are circumstances that could alter someones friendship, be it on a sudden basis or over time. Even with a child, one could imagine certain vile acts which could even break that relationship.

But, remember the OPs predicament and what the subsequent comments relate to , are a situation where a friend, who was already a religous believer became a priest. It was in that context that some people said they could no longer be "friends". It was not where a hardcore atheist (when they became friends) suddenly became a priest.

So, if we are to analogise with other "beliefs", the question would be, "what would you do if your friend, the neo-Nazi sympathiser became an active neo-Nazi kneecapper and foot-soldier ........":pac: And, tbh, I dont think I would have been a friend of theirs in the first place...

If a friend became a neo-Nazi overnight after never having any Nazi tendencies, I certainly could see our freindship fundamentally changing. But as I said, I dont think it is an appropriate analogy.

And that is before we get to comparing an attitude that is moptivated primarily by hate rather than one which, while it may be misguided and in some peoples opinions, may result in harm, is one which is fundamentally guided not by hate, but by more constructive emotions.

Zillah

True enough, but at least in terms of the OP I would say that by the sounds of that guy he's not gonna last a semester in priest school so it's kind of a non-issue, I'm mostly speaking in hypothetical.

I just wanted to see if your attitude in relation to demoting friends was fundamental or contingent.

I'll close with a little nitpick. The neo-Nazi example would better be described thusly: You have a friend who you've known since childhood, he has at points expressed nationalist/nazi notions but he never seemed to really believe it and certainly didn't bring it up every day. Then one day you discover that he has not only officially joined a neo-Nazi group but that he is on track to become a member of the leadership of this group!

Anyway I don't mean to imply the Catholic Church are as bad as the Nazis. Well, some of them were Nazis and they did fail to speak out against them...but anyway, at least neo-Nazis aren't actively contributing to the spread of a lethal pandemic. Wait who was I defending again?

ChocolateSauce

bangersandmash wrote: »

To be fair, if you were to consult the posters on Boards in this matter you would have a very long list. Do you respect politicians, auctioneers, estate agents, solicitors, builders, pharmacists, taxi drivers, or those without employment? Would you shun their company? And would they hold your chosen profession in high esteem?

Unlike priests, I don't feel any of the professions you mentioned are promoting something which is deleterious to humanity. There can be bad people in those professions, but the professions themselves are good.

jakkass wrote:

I'd like to think so. I'd disagree with what he did, but ultimately this person is a person like everyone else. I would try as best as possible to explain my views calmly on the subject (some people think I come across very strongly, and sometimes I do, but most of the time I'm relatively calm when discussing my beliefs with friends), and of course get to know more about the person apart from what they do at work

Even though you believe it is murder, and that by extension these doctors are baby killers? I'm not sure whether to be impressed by your tolerance in this matter or horrified by it! I don't think I could bring myself to even talk to, say, a professional assassin.

drkpower wrote:

Wow.
What a friend to have, eh....

All of my friends have my deepest respect (-If I don't respect someone to begin with, I'll never consider them a friend), and I am certain that not one of them would do something like joining the priesthood. At least not a theistic one. I'm just being pragmatic with regards to friends here. I don't believe for a second that you could lose a lot of respect for one of your friends and still consider them your close friend.

Would the same apply to a cousin, a brother, a child.....? Would you continue to have a relationship of significance with anyone if they chose to become a priest?

I have only living relative that I really know well. I do have one or two friends that I consider family, one of whom I actually would hate if I met him now, and I still love that friend so the answer there is no, the same does not apply.

So, if we are to analogise with other "beliefs", the question would be, "what would you do if your friend, the neo-Nazi sympathiser became an active neo-Nazi kneecapper and foot-soldier ........" And, tbh, I dont think I would have been a friend of theirs in the first place...

This is fairly analogous to mine: I don't have any friends who are in any way likely to want to be priests. It is a good analogy.

Hollyg'lightly

No one can ever get into someone elses mind and change whats going on in there, trying to do such often wastes your time and theirs. As for having to listen to someone who advocates the Popes rules etc, well the argument works both ways, those who are against abortion for example don't want their society to be permeated by those who advocate such. The best we can all do is live and let live and after that good luck and thanks.

Muppet Man

A good friend to me is someone who I can rely upon in times of serious need. I am lucky enough to have a few around me and we regularly express differences of opinion on various matters (and sometimes heated). I would not / never fall out with any of them based on their set of beliefs (regardless of subject matter, religious or not). I havent (yet!) fallen out with my father who has very strong faith in God.

As I say, I judge friends based on their reliability and support and fun to be with. If they believe in fairies, then I can accept that for what it is. I dont try to convert them. I know you could ask if was their belief to rape children would I feel the same, and obviously the answer is no, I wouldnt be friends with them at all. So there are degrees of acceptance / tolerances with all friendships. It comes down to where you set levels and if a persons "new" direction (to become a priest) will lessen what ye already have as friends. Thats my tupenceworth.

Take Care,
Muppet Man.

PS, loved the peado jokes, for what they were worth (a laugh).