What makes the government think it is safe for 16year olds to drive tractors?

samsemtex

Just reading through the other tractor related thread there and its hard to believe 16 y.o's on a provisional are still allowed drive tractors without any training.

I know city people have this perception that tractors are slow but the average modern tractor now has a 50-60kph transmission. That may not sound like a lot but when you consider that the avg tractor weighs about 6tonnes that changes things. Then add the fact that they may be drawing a trailer which weighs 20tonnes behind them and you will not stop that machine in an emergency if you are going too fast.

Then there is the sheer size of the machine. A 360hp Fendt can do nearly 50mph and tow a colossal amount of weight. Thats more dangerous than giving a 16 year old an M3 or something like that. Is there even a hint of them changing the legislation with regard to tractors here?

peasant

legislation has been overtaken by technical progress, I'd say

BlackWizard

I think it comes down to statistics and probability.

Not many 16 year olds are out on the roads driving tractors. Not many (if any?) have crashed them casing serious injury.

Same can be said for the M3 bmw with 17 year olds. Thanks to the government.

samsemtex

Its been overtaken with a long, long time. JCB Fastraks and Mercedes Unimogs have been around with years. Typical of how government works here me thinks though. Its not as if there arent a lot of tractor related deaths every year either like so there is no excuse for them not doing anything about it.

BlackWizard: there are an awful lot of 16 year olds driving tractors. I can tell you of 2 people who were killed by young fellas driving tractors during silage season in my area alone. Not sure if they were 16-17 but they were pretty young anyway and had received no training on how to drive one correctly/safely. A 17 year old wont get insured on an M3 and i would be very surprised if a 17 year has ever killed anyone in an M3 in this country.

Biro

Not easy to implement really, but I agree mainly. Bringing trailers on the main roads is the biggest problem. However I'd worry a lot less about a 16 year old out on the road for the first time in a tractor than a 17 year old out for the first time in a car.
The reason is most 17 year olds turn 17, fill in the forms necessary and take to the roads, not having a clue. Lots of problems associated with this.
Most 16 year old tractor drivers have been driving tractors since they were 10, around the yard etc, and know the controls very well. The only real problem associated with this is the cockyness of "I'm a great driver" and not enough awareness of other road users.

bubblewrap

It is mad. <snip>

spillcoe

samsemtex wrote: »

I know city people have this perception that tractors are slow but the average modern tractor now has a 50-60kph transmission.

While the average brand new tractor may have something close to 50-60 kph, the average tractor being driven has nowhere near this speed.

BlackWizard

I didn't know young lads where being killed on tractors..

Looks like it happens a fair bit too.

I guess no one wants to upset the farmers or rural communites by changing anything. They might loose some votes.

smash

Well a 17 year old can get a license and drive whatever they want unrestricted by engine size or BHP as long as they're insured... I'd say that's more dangerous than a 16 year old driving a tractor around at slow speeds!

samsemtex

steve06 wrote: »

Well a 17 year old can get a license and drive whatever they want unrestricted by engine size or BHP as long as they're insured... I'd say that's more dangerous than a 16 year old driving a tractor around at slow speeds!

Yeah but realistically a 17 year old isnt going to get insured in an unrestricted bhp car. But i agree that needs to be reformed too. All aspects of driver education in this country are a joke.

Theanswers

Tractors form a vital part of country side living, to be honest the vast majority of tractors driven by 16 yr olds are old. Therefore they are more than likely slow and are generally used for work purposes.
These young people are not lapping the town or causing havoc, therefore maybe we should not question the law as it is quite positive and benefits the entire community.
People must understand that these young people are causing no harm to any one. I live in rural Ireland and have never heard of a tractor being involved in an accident. Young people rarely use the tractor for anything but wok.
People automatically target young people just because they are young. This should not be the case.
Maybe could we not give out about the old drivers who drive at 70- 80 kph when their car is capable of the speed limit? This type of delays in themselves are dangerous and also cause loss of revenue/ Company profits due to longer delivery times.
This problem is much greater I believe.

samsemtex

Theanswers wrote: »

Tractors form a vital part of country side living, to be honest the vast majority of tractors driven by 16 yr olds are old. Therefore they are more than likely slow and are generally used for work purposes.
These young people are not lapping the town or causing havoc, therefore maybe we should not question the law as it is quite positive and benefits the entire community.
People must understand that these young people are causing no harm to any one. I live in rural Ireland and have never heard of a tractor being involved in an accident. Young people rarely use the tractor for anything but wok.
People automatically target young people just because they are young. This should not be the case.
Maybe could we not give out about the old drivers who drive at 70- 80 kph when their car is capable of the speed limit? This type of delays in themselves are dangerous and also cause loss of revenue/ Company profits due to longer delivery times.
This problem is much greater I believe.

Every silage contractor i know has at least one 16-17 year old driving a big, relatively new and powerful tractor.

As for causing no harm, our closest silage contractor has killed 2 people by crashing into them.

Zonda999

BlackWizard wrote: »

Same can be said for the M3 bmw with 17 year olds. Thanks to the government.

A 17 year old would never get insured on an M3 in this country, an m3 look-alike maybe!

Edit: samsemtex beat me to it!

Theanswers

Maybe so,
But what harm are they causing? They are working for a contractor therefore they are "working"
Doing something worth while with there time instead of causing harm or damage.
As for the M3. I trust this is a bmw? A young person can get insured on any car. It just depends on how much you are willing to pay. I'm 17 and have been insured on a 06 e class mercedes/ Range rover.
Yet i'm 18 now. Still insured.
It's also not as expencive as you think.
Young people arnt all bad. We dont all cause harm, what i hate is that people just blame young people for everything.

peasant

Tractor licences need to be split.

Up to a certain weight, speed and/or power it's a free for all, above that you should need a full licence (C maybe ?) and need to be over 21

Biro

samsemtex wrote: »

Every silage contractor i know has at least one 16-17 year old driving a big, relatively new and powerful tractor.

As for causing no harm, our closest silage contractor has killed 2 people by crashing into them.

That's rare though. Most deaths on farms is resulting from stupidity with machines and not taking precautions. I've only once in 30 years heard of a crash involving a tractor with a young person.

irisheddie85

its perfectly safe to give 16 year olds a licence to drive a tractor as most people who live an a farm will have been driving one for years and understand how the controls work.

The problem is with silage contractors hiring irresponsible drivers regardless of age and expecting them to work 14 hour days.

smash

Zonda999 wrote: »

A 17 year old would never get insured on an M3 in this country, an m3 look-alike maybe!

Edit: samsemtex beat me to it!

Seriously are you for real? Under a parent's policy a 17 year old can get insured on anything if the parents are willing to pay!

Gurgle

irisheddie85 wrote: »

its perfectly safe to give 16 year olds a licence to drive a tractor as most people who live an a farm will have been driving one for years and understand how the controls work.

Sure, it's perfectly safe for a 16 year old to take an unladen Massy 35 on the road, from the gates of the farmyard down a country cul-de-sac to the field 1/2 a mile away.

Not to drive a John Deere with a 30 foot trailer stacked 16 feet high with hay from one end of the country to the other.

Just look at the requirements to drive a matching size / weight / speed of lorry.

Zube

irisheddie85 wrote: »

its perfectly safe to give 16 year olds a licence to drive a tractor as most people who live an a farm will have been driving one for years and understand how the controls work.

Actually, 40% of deaths in the workplace are on farms, although only 6% of the workforce work on farms. 60% of those deaths involve tractors and machinery.

So, no, it is not perfectly safe.

If you look here you'll see that the RSA and farmers reps have been discussing this issue. The Farm Tractor and Machinery Trade Association says:

Driver Licences

The area that is currently outside the scope of the EU Tractor Directive is driver licences. FTMTA believes that there needs to a workable response to this real issue. The FTMTA believes that 16-year-old applicants for the learner driving permit (Class W), should receive a Certificate of Competence in tractor operation, in order to apply for a tractor driving permit. FTMTA also believes that this learner driving permit should restrict the driver to a maximum speed of 40km/hr, and a maximum gross train weight of 24 tonnes.
This latter gross train weight, which means the weight of the tractor, trailer and load should be calculated on the basis of a 25% - 75% weight ratio in weight distribution between the tractor and trailer. The tractor should weigh a minimum of 25% of the overall gross train weight.
This would ensure that some tractor users would not use an unsafe and lighter tractor to get within the total load rating, preserving the safety of the young driver.

Zonda999

steve06 wrote: »

Seriously are you for real? Under a parent's policy a 17 year old can get insured on anything if the parents are willing to pay!

Seriously now, how many 17year olds in this country can legally drive a real M3 today, do you think? Anyway, to the point, dangerous driving is just as easy to demonstrate in a corolla as an M3, but that isnt the point of the thread

Paddy001

I started driving when i was around 8 and i was driving machinery on the road when i was 16. I know i wouldnt have been left use any machine if i wasnt capable, and certainly not on the road. An average new tractor is now around 80k, plus a trailer etc. And there is no contractor that would spend that and let someone drive it who is not capable.

irisheddie85

Gurgle wrote: »

Not to drive a John Deere with a 30 foot trailer stacked 16 feet high with hay from one end of the country to the other.

Just look at the requirements to drive a matching size / weight / speed of lorry.

Thats why i said the problem is with people hiring bad drivers is the problem. Regardless of what age you are without a lot of experience driving with that sort of load is not safe to do. I wouldnt trust a 40 year old sales rep to drive what you describe across the country even though he is drivng years but he can also get a tractor licence and try and do it if he lossses his job

Paddy001

Also, im pretty sure your only meant to tow a single axled trailer on a provisional, but its not being enforced

smash

Zonda999 wrote: »

Seriously now, how many 17year olds in this country can legally drive a real M3 today, do you think?

Any of them can, if they have the money to cover the insurance! a friend of mine was driving a new Prelude when he was 17!

irisheddie85

Zube wrote: »

Actually, 40% of deaths in the workplace are on farms, although only 6% of the workforce work on farms. 60% of those deaths involve tractors and machinery.

So, no, it is not perfectly safe.

Most of the deaths would be not when driving the tractor but when performing maintenaince on the tractor/attached machinery while trying to do work at the same time, yes this is a major problem but is why farms now have to have safety statements and other health and safety equipment in place by law.

The main way to stop these deaths is to teach people the proper way to act around all machinery from a young age.
I grew up on a farm and the tractor and other equipment was not a thing to play around with but to work with.

We never had any major accidents because we had a respect for what the machinery could do and were safe around machinery because from driving them we understood were the blindspots were for the driver and where around each machine was dangerous to stand touch.

fig mclough

Theanswers wrote: »

Maybe so,
But what harm are they causing? They are working for a contractor therefore they are "working"
Doing something worth while with there time instead of causing harm or damage.
As for the M3. I trust this is a bmw? A young person can get insured on any car. It just depends on how much you are willing to pay. I'm 17 and have been insured on a 06 e class mercedes/ Range rover.
Yet i'm 18 now. Still insured.
It's also not as expencive as you think.
Young people arnt all bad. We dont all cause harm, what i hate is that people just blame young people for everything.

i agree, there doing something instead of their friends driving up and the town all day which is pointless.

Biro

irisheddie85 wrote: »

Most of the deaths would be not when driving the tractor but when performing maintenaince on the tractor/attached machinery while trying to do work at the same time, yes this is a major problem but is why farms now have to have safety statements and other health and safety equipment in place by law.

The main way to stop these deaths is to teach people the proper way to act around all machinery from a young age.
I grew up on a farm and the tractor and other equipment was not a thing to play around with but to work with.

We never had any major accidents because we had a respect for what the machinery could do and were safe around machinery because from driving them we understood were the blindspots were for the driver and where around each machine was dangerous to stand touch.

Excellent post. I hate it when people pull percentages of injurys and deaths on farms and use them to state that 16 year olds driving on the roads is dangerous, therefore we should ban it. That wouldn't save one life. The issue is exactly as you mention it in the post above.
The next person who posts about deaths on a farm should have the post deleted because it's unrelated to the discussion here, which is a 16 year old driving a tractor on the road legally.

alo1587

What i cant figure out is how they are allowed to tow a tri axle trailer with 20 ton of grain behind them.This weight is up there with articulated lorry weight.You need an EB licence for a car towing a trailer with combined weight over 3500kg,but a 16 year old can jump into a 7 ton tractor with a 20 ton trailer load up behind them and nothing needed.27ton on a W licence at 16.Dont get me wrong,most young lads i know driving them for the summer are excellent drivers,but i cant figure out how the licencing is so lax for them,especially around towing trailers with such weight

Sandwich

What makes you think the government thinks ?

partyatmygaff

Sandwich wrote: »

What makes you think the government thinks ?

How much did you think about that post?
None? I thought so. Just because its popular to call the government stupid doesn't mean its true.

They are smart enough to be voted into government by 5 million people and smart enough to know not to anger rural communities and lose votes off them by changing the age.