What makes the government think it is safe for 16year olds to drive tractors?

samsemtex

Just reading through the other tractor related thread there and its hard to believe 16 y.o's on a provisional are still allowed drive tractors without any training.

I know city people have this perception that tractors are slow but the average modern tractor now has a 50-60kph transmission. That may not sound like a lot but when you consider that the avg tractor weighs about 6tonnes that changes things. Then add the fact that they may be drawing a trailer which weighs 20tonnes behind them and you will not stop that machine in an emergency if you are going too fast.

Then there is the sheer size of the machine. A 360hp Fendt can do nearly 50mph and tow a colossal amount of weight. Thats more dangerous than giving a 16 year old an M3 or something like that. Is there even a hint of them changing the legislation with regard to tractors here?

peasant

legislation has been overtaken by technical progress, I'd say

BlackWizard

I think it comes down to statistics and probability.

Not many 16 year olds are out on the roads driving tractors. Not many (if any?) have crashed them casing serious injury.

Same can be said for the M3 bmw with 17 year olds. Thanks to the government.

samsemtex

Its been overtaken with a long, long time. JCB Fastraks and Mercedes Unimogs have been around with years. Typical of how government works here me thinks though. Its not as if there arent a lot of tractor related deaths every year either like so there is no excuse for them not doing anything about it.

BlackWizard: there are an awful lot of 16 year olds driving tractors. I can tell you of 2 people who were killed by young fellas driving tractors during silage season in my area alone. Not sure if they were 16-17 but they were pretty young anyway and had received no training on how to drive one correctly/safely. A 17 year old wont get insured on an M3 and i would be very surprised if a 17 year has ever killed anyone in an M3 in this country.

Biro

Not easy to implement really, but I agree mainly. Bringing trailers on the main roads is the biggest problem. However I'd worry a lot less about a 16 year old out on the road for the first time in a tractor than a 17 year old out for the first time in a car.
The reason is most 17 year olds turn 17, fill in the forms necessary and take to the roads, not having a clue. Lots of problems associated with this.
Most 16 year old tractor drivers have been driving tractors since they were 10, around the yard etc, and know the controls very well. The only real problem associated with this is the cockyness of "I'm a great driver" and not enough awareness of other road users.

bubblewrap

It is mad. <snip>

spillcoe

samsemtex wrote: »

I know city people have this perception that tractors are slow but the average modern tractor now has a 50-60kph transmission.

While the average brand new tractor may have something close to 50-60 kph, the average tractor being driven has nowhere near this speed.

BlackWizard

I didn't know young lads where being killed on tractors..

Looks like it happens a fair bit too.

I guess no one wants to upset the farmers or rural communites by changing anything. They might loose some votes.

smash

Well a 17 year old can get a license and drive whatever they want unrestricted by engine size or BHP as long as they're insured... I'd say that's more dangerous than a 16 year old driving a tractor around at slow speeds!

samsemtex

steve06 wrote: »

Well a 17 year old can get a license and drive whatever they want unrestricted by engine size or BHP as long as they're insured... I'd say that's more dangerous than a 16 year old driving a tractor around at slow speeds!

Yeah but realistically a 17 year old isnt going to get insured in an unrestricted bhp car. But i agree that needs to be reformed too. All aspects of driver education in this country are a joke.

Theanswers

Tractors form a vital part of country side living, to be honest the vast majority of tractors driven by 16 yr olds are old. Therefore they are more than likely slow and are generally used for work purposes.
These young people are not lapping the town or causing havoc, therefore maybe we should not question the law as it is quite positive and benefits the entire community.
People must understand that these young people are causing no harm to any one. I live in rural Ireland and have never heard of a tractor being involved in an accident. Young people rarely use the tractor for anything but wok.
People automatically target young people just because they are young. This should not be the case.
Maybe could we not give out about the old drivers who drive at 70- 80 kph when their car is capable of the speed limit? This type of delays in themselves are dangerous and also cause loss of revenue/ Company profits due to longer delivery times.
This problem is much greater I believe.

samsemtex

Theanswers wrote: »

Tractors form a vital part of country side living, to be honest the vast majority of tractors driven by 16 yr olds are old. Therefore they are more than likely slow and are generally used for work purposes.
These young people are not lapping the town or causing havoc, therefore maybe we should not question the law as it is quite positive and benefits the entire community.
People must understand that these young people are causing no harm to any one. I live in rural Ireland and have never heard of a tractor being involved in an accident. Young people rarely use the tractor for anything but wok.
People automatically target young people just because they are young. This should not be the case.
Maybe could we not give out about the old drivers who drive at 70- 80 kph when their car is capable of the speed limit? This type of delays in themselves are dangerous and also cause loss of revenue/ Company profits due to longer delivery times.
This problem is much greater I believe.

Every silage contractor i know has at least one 16-17 year old driving a big, relatively new and powerful tractor.

As for causing no harm, our closest silage contractor has killed 2 people by crashing into them.

Zonda999

BlackWizard wrote: »

Same can be said for the M3 bmw with 17 year olds. Thanks to the government.

A 17 year old would never get insured on an M3 in this country, an m3 look-alike maybe!

Edit: samsemtex beat me to it!

Theanswers

Maybe so,
But what harm are they causing? They are working for a contractor therefore they are "working"
Doing something worth while with there time instead of causing harm or damage.
As for the M3. I trust this is a bmw? A young person can get insured on any car. It just depends on how much you are willing to pay. I'm 17 and have been insured on a 06 e class mercedes/ Range rover.
Yet i'm 18 now. Still insured.
It's also not as expencive as you think.
Young people arnt all bad. We dont all cause harm, what i hate is that people just blame young people for everything.

peasant

Tractor licences need to be split.

Up to a certain weight, speed and/or power it's a free for all, above that you should need a full licence (C maybe ?) and need to be over 21

Biro

samsemtex wrote: »

Every silage contractor i know has at least one 16-17 year old driving a big, relatively new and powerful tractor.

As for causing no harm, our closest silage contractor has killed 2 people by crashing into them.

That's rare though. Most deaths on farms is resulting from stupidity with machines and not taking precautions. I've only once in 30 years heard of a crash involving a tractor with a young person.

irisheddie85

its perfectly safe to give 16 year olds a licence to drive a tractor as most people who live an a farm will have been driving one for years and understand how the controls work.

The problem is with silage contractors hiring irresponsible drivers regardless of age and expecting them to work 14 hour days.

smash

Zonda999 wrote: »

A 17 year old would never get insured on an M3 in this country, an m3 look-alike maybe!

Edit: samsemtex beat me to it!

Seriously are you for real? Under a parent's policy a 17 year old can get insured on anything if the parents are willing to pay!

Gurgle

irisheddie85 wrote: »

its perfectly safe to give 16 year olds a licence to drive a tractor as most people who live an a farm will have been driving one for years and understand how the controls work.

Sure, it's perfectly safe for a 16 year old to take an unladen Massy 35 on the road, from the gates of the farmyard down a country cul-de-sac to the field 1/2 a mile away.

Not to drive a John Deere with a 30 foot trailer stacked 16 feet high with hay from one end of the country to the other.

Just look at the requirements to drive a matching size / weight / speed of lorry.

Zube

irisheddie85 wrote: »

its perfectly safe to give 16 year olds a licence to drive a tractor as most people who live an a farm will have been driving one for years and understand how the controls work.

Actually, 40% of deaths in the workplace are on farms, although only 6% of the workforce work on farms. 60% of those deaths involve tractors and machinery.

So, no, it is not perfectly safe.

If you look here you'll see that the RSA and farmers reps have been discussing this issue. The Farm Tractor and Machinery Trade Association says:

Driver Licences

The area that is currently outside the scope of the EU Tractor Directive is driver licences. FTMTA believes that there needs to a workable response to this real issue. The FTMTA believes that 16-year-old applicants for the learner driving permit (Class W), should receive a Certificate of Competence in tractor operation, in order to apply for a tractor driving permit. FTMTA also believes that this learner driving permit should restrict the driver to a maximum speed of 40km/hr, and a maximum gross train weight of 24 tonnes.
This latter gross train weight, which means the weight of the tractor, trailer and load should be calculated on the basis of a 25% - 75% weight ratio in weight distribution between the tractor and trailer. The tractor should weigh a minimum of 25% of the overall gross train weight.
This would ensure that some tractor users would not use an unsafe and lighter tractor to get within the total load rating, preserving the safety of the young driver.

Zonda999

steve06 wrote: »

Seriously are you for real? Under a parent's policy a 17 year old can get insured on anything if the parents are willing to pay!

Seriously now, how many 17year olds in this country can legally drive a real M3 today, do you think? Anyway, to the point, dangerous driving is just as easy to demonstrate in a corolla as an M3, but that isnt the point of the thread

Paddy001

I started driving when i was around 8 and i was driving machinery on the road when i was 16. I know i wouldnt have been left use any machine if i wasnt capable, and certainly not on the road. An average new tractor is now around 80k, plus a trailer etc. And there is no contractor that would spend that and let someone drive it who is not capable.

irisheddie85

Gurgle wrote: »

Not to drive a John Deere with a 30 foot trailer stacked 16 feet high with hay from one end of the country to the other.

Just look at the requirements to drive a matching size / weight / speed of lorry.

Thats why i said the problem is with people hiring bad drivers is the problem. Regardless of what age you are without a lot of experience driving with that sort of load is not safe to do. I wouldnt trust a 40 year old sales rep to drive what you describe across the country even though he is drivng years but he can also get a tractor licence and try and do it if he lossses his job

Paddy001

Also, im pretty sure your only meant to tow a single axled trailer on a provisional, but its not being enforced

smash

Zonda999 wrote: »

Seriously now, how many 17year olds in this country can legally drive a real M3 today, do you think?

Any of them can, if they have the money to cover the insurance! a friend of mine was driving a new Prelude when he was 17!

irisheddie85

Zube wrote: »

Actually, 40% of deaths in the workplace are on farms, although only 6% of the workforce work on farms. 60% of those deaths involve tractors and machinery.

So, no, it is not perfectly safe.

Most of the deaths would be not when driving the tractor but when performing maintenaince on the tractor/attached machinery while trying to do work at the same time, yes this is a major problem but is why farms now have to have safety statements and other health and safety equipment in place by law.

The main way to stop these deaths is to teach people the proper way to act around all machinery from a young age.
I grew up on a farm and the tractor and other equipment was not a thing to play around with but to work with.

We never had any major accidents because we had a respect for what the machinery could do and were safe around machinery because from driving them we understood were the blindspots were for the driver and where around each machine was dangerous to stand touch.

fig mclough

Theanswers wrote: »

Maybe so,
But what harm are they causing? They are working for a contractor therefore they are "working"
Doing something worth while with there time instead of causing harm or damage.
As for the M3. I trust this is a bmw? A young person can get insured on any car. It just depends on how much you are willing to pay. I'm 17 and have been insured on a 06 e class mercedes/ Range rover.
Yet i'm 18 now. Still insured.
It's also not as expencive as you think.
Young people arnt all bad. We dont all cause harm, what i hate is that people just blame young people for everything.

i agree, there doing something instead of their friends driving up and the town all day which is pointless.

Biro

irisheddie85 wrote: »

Most of the deaths would be not when driving the tractor but when performing maintenaince on the tractor/attached machinery while trying to do work at the same time, yes this is a major problem but is why farms now have to have safety statements and other health and safety equipment in place by law.

The main way to stop these deaths is to teach people the proper way to act around all machinery from a young age.
I grew up on a farm and the tractor and other equipment was not a thing to play around with but to work with.

We never had any major accidents because we had a respect for what the machinery could do and were safe around machinery because from driving them we understood were the blindspots were for the driver and where around each machine was dangerous to stand touch.

Excellent post. I hate it when people pull percentages of injurys and deaths on farms and use them to state that 16 year olds driving on the roads is dangerous, therefore we should ban it. That wouldn't save one life. The issue is exactly as you mention it in the post above.
The next person who posts about deaths on a farm should have the post deleted because it's unrelated to the discussion here, which is a 16 year old driving a tractor on the road legally.

alo1587

What i cant figure out is how they are allowed to tow a tri axle trailer with 20 ton of grain behind them.This weight is up there with articulated lorry weight.You need an EB licence for a car towing a trailer with combined weight over 3500kg,but a 16 year old can jump into a 7 ton tractor with a 20 ton trailer load up behind them and nothing needed.27ton on a W licence at 16.Dont get me wrong,most young lads i know driving them for the summer are excellent drivers,but i cant figure out how the licencing is so lax for them,especially around towing trailers with such weight

Sandwich

What makes you think the government thinks ?

partyatmygaff

Sandwich wrote: »

What makes you think the government thinks ?

How much did you think about that post?
None? I thought so. Just because its popular to call the government stupid doesn't mean its true.

They are smart enough to be voted into government by 5 million people and smart enough to know not to anger rural communities and lose votes off them by changing the age.

Mayoegian

I think it is totally wrong to allow a child of 16 to drive any vehicle, never mind a tractor-which are very modernised these days, with quite high speeds. 16-year-olds simply do not have the level of responsibility to drive a vehicle of any nature. It doesn't matter if they've been driving a tractor all their lives, they shouldn't have been driving one in the first place, because they're too young and too inexperienced.

Also, I think it is both irresponsible and completely dangerous to allow a 17-year-old out on Irish roads. I don't care of there is an experienced driver sitting next to them. It's the kid that's driving the car, not the License holder, and anything could go wrong. The majority of people killed on the roads are young people, who just do not have enough experience to be out driving. The Government need to get real, and stop putting other road-users in danger by allowing children drive on Irish roads. It's lethal.

That's just my view.

I'm 16, by the way.

G Luxel

On my licence, there is an x next to the tractor pictogram even though I never took a test in a tractor.
16 years old are driving tractors because they love being mobile, its just down to irresponsible parents who havent a clue and who dont want to spend money on farm relief or take on a part-time labourer and many young farmers havent even sat the junior cert, they are ''needed at home'':rolleyes:

Leaving an 8 year old to drive a tractor is the same as that plane crash in russia where the drunken pilot allowed a 5 year old to fly the plane into the ground...............

Panda Moanium

It's probably a bit unfair to specifically target 16 or 17 year olds as they are more than likely to be just as competent as an 18, 20 or even 25 year old that takes to the road for the first time, but there is no doubt that there is a need for training before any individual should be allowed loose on the public road in these machines.

A few posters have pointed out that most of these lads would have been driving around the farm for years but that is not the same thing as on-road driving.

Being a good tractor driver is about a lot more than just being able to handle the tractor. It involves understanding the dynamics involved, whether that is pulling heavy loads and how they can move when in transit, carrying heavy machinery such as ploughs which can affect the weight distribution and handling of the tractor, to 'knowing' the braking capabilities - even the best modern tractor has nowhere near the braking power (or tyre grip) of a HGV, and an awful lot of trailers used for silage etc would not have any brakes at all.

Then there are other things like appreciating that most tractors have no suspension and what that means - for example, keep in too far in a car or truck and hit a stone at the side of the road and its likely the suspension will take care of it; do the same at speed in a tractor and you can be thrown across the road or even overturn.

Another observation is that modern tractors offer excellent sound insulation with windows closed. Too often I see young lads flying along at maximum speed with radio on full volume oblivious to what is going on behind them. At least in older tractors you would hear if something was happening behind you.

The fact that we allow young lads with no on-road experience loose on modern tractors that can go virtually as fast as trucks and carry / pull comparable sized loads, yet be mounted on tyres designed for field use has to be a cause for concern surely?

fig mclough

Mayoegian wrote: »

I think it is totally wrong to allow a child of 16 to drive any vehicle, never mind a tractor-which are very modernised these days, with quite high speeds. 16-year-olds simply do not have the level of responsibility to drive a vehicle of any nature. It doesn't matter if they've been driving a tractor all their lives, they shouldn't have been driving one in the first place, because they're too young and too inexperienced.

Also, I think it is both irresponsible and completely dangerous to allow a 17-year-old out on Irish roads. I don't care of there is an experienced driver sitting next to them. It's the kid that's driving the car, not the License holder, and anything could go wrong. The majority of people killed on the roads are young people, who just do not have enough experience to be out driving. The Government need to get real, and stop putting other road-users in danger by allowing children drive on Irish roads. It's lethal.

That's just my view.

I'm 16, by the way.

what you said is rubbish, everybody has to start some where, it doesnt matter if your 17 or 24 if you have never operated a car before you still have to learn. just because your 7 years older doesnt mean your automaticly goining to learn faster or be better does it???

Sandwich

fig mclough wrote: »

what you said is rubbish, everybody has to start some where, it doesnt matter if your 17 or 24 if you have never operated a car before you still have to learn. just because your 7 years older doesnt mean your automaticly goining to learn faster or be better does it???

Exactly. You should be permitted to learn to drive a tractor (under supervision of course) from the age of 4, or earlier if you are tall enough to see out.

Zube

Sandwich wrote: »

Exactly. You should be permitted to learn to drive a tractor (under supervision of course) from the age of 4, or earlier if you are tall enough to see out.

Two four year olds could be taught to drive as a team, one standing on the seat holding the wheel while the other operates the rest of the controls.

That way they'd have 12 years experience by the time they're 16.

I learned to drive a tractor at about 8 and I when it came to 16 I had no problem adjusting to driving on the road. When you are actually doing work in a tractor around a farm etc you have to be very competent watching where you are going and controlling machines at the same time, working with loaders, maneuvering trailers in tight farm yards etc. Driving on the road is often easy in comparison. I also think it was of huge benefit when it came to driving cars on the roads as I was used to driving much bigger machines and driving a car was easy in comparison.

I dont see why people are picking on 16 year olds driving tractors. I have never heard of a crash on the roads involving a young person in a tractor and even if there has been its a tiny tiny percentage of road deaths, sure why not ban everybody from driving altogether.

I would also completely disagree with raising the age to 21 for bigger tractors, its hard enough for people to get summer jobs etc as it is and that would cut out young people working for contractors which is a fairly big source of employment in the country side.

BadCharlie

Today's government would rather not do what's Right or try and Fix a problem if they would lose Votes. Its sad but true that they are more concerned about them selves & getting back into power then doing whats good for the country.

peasant

Thomas Nutritious Level wrote: »

I would also completely disagree with raising the age to 21 for bigger tractors, its hard enough for people to get summer jobs etc as it is and that would cut out young people working for contractors which is a fairly big source of employment in the country side.

Quite frankly, I don't give two hoots if you can get a summer job or not.

It is very worrying that if you want to drive (for example) a heavy car with a big caravan on your holidays, once the train is over 3.5 tons, you will need a EB licence...you normal car licence won't cover you.

Yet if you're working a summer job in haulage you can drive a behemoth of a tractor with one or even two trailers without ever having passed so much as a driving test.

Something stinks there.


And no ...it shouldn't be a case of having to wait until so many accidents have happpened that something needs to be done

samsemtex

peasant wrote: »

Quite frankly, I don't give two hoots if you can get a summer job or not.

It is very worrying that if you want to drive (for example) a heavy car with a big caravan on your holidays, once the train is over 3.5 tons, you will need a EB licence...you normal car licence won't cover you.

Yet if you're working a summer job in haulage you can drive a behemoth of a tractor with one or even two trailers without ever having passed so much as a driving test.

Something stinks there.


And no ...it shouldn't be a case of having to wait until so many accidents have happpened that something needs to be done

I agree completely with you. Like our tractor at home is capable of 56mph (yes thats right, i said miles!) and a 16 year old would be allowed drive it despite the fact that it is basically a truck. A crash in that could kill a lot of people.

ttm

Question is about 16 year olds driving a tractor legally but whats the point of having a law when its not enforced? Locally one farmers son has been on the road driving a tractor, a JCB and a massive Volvo loader since he was 12, he's a good driver and no one else seems bothered so what can you do?

peasant

ttm wrote: »

so what can you do?

[AH mode] Well ...if you ever need a new(er) car you could drive your old one into the Volvo loader while the youngefella is driving it. Best do it in front of his father and some other wittnesses. Then walk up to him and demand compensation and a new car ...he's hardly going to sue you, now is he? [/AH mode]

ttm

peasant wrote: »

[AH mode] Well ...if you ever need a new(er) car you could drive your old one into the Volvo loader while the youngefella is driving it. Best do it in front of his father and some other wittnesses. Then walk up to him and demand compensation and a new car ...he's hardly going to sue you, now is he? [/AH mode]

The loader bucket is about 10 foot wide (much wider than a family car) and has 4 foot long spikes for handling silage. On a narrow road either you get stuck behind it or if its comming your way you get out of the way quick . Otherwise if he hit you I expect he'd be back to burry you with the JCB. tbh I was never worried about the youngfella driving a tractor just the Volvo Loader.

Wishbone Ash

Paddy001 wrote: »

Also, im pretty sure your only meant to tow a single axled trailer on a provisional, but its not being enforced

There's no regulation stipulating that the trailer must be single axled.

Under current legislation, a 16 year old on a Learner Permit is legally entitled to drive a tractor on (non-motorway) public roads, drawing up to 2 trailers, within a maximum total length of 75 feet.

The only prohibition is that they must avoid urban areas with populations greater than 10,000.