Should we do away with speed limits on our interurban motorways?

Amtmann

Like in Germany. Advisory speed limits, or speed limits along certain sections could be maintained, but by and large, the motorways would be speed limitless.

For instance: the M8 from Cullahill to just north of the toll could be limitless, as could the M7, M4, M1 and M6. The M18 could have a 130 limit at the Ennis bypass, while the M8 Glanmire Bypass would keep a limit of 100.

I'm not necessarily advocating this; I'm just putting it out there. When I got back from Germany and drove on the M8 I felt the world was moving in slow motion, even though the M8 was better than many of the motorways I drove on in Germany.

Rowley Birkin QC

I would most definitely be in favour of this but it would have to backed up with huge improvements in driver education. Regardless of the speed limit there will always be the guy in the "fast lane" doing 72 km/h because he thinks it's fast enough.

It would be great in principle but making it work could be a whole other story.

Zoney

For reasons of noise etc. there are stretches of Autobahn in Germany that though up to spec for lack of limit, have 120 applied due to being near populated area (i.e. town 1 km away etc). I think most stretchs of our motorways would fit this definition due to our rural housing - however sparse it may be in places.

In any case, until driver training and education is sorted out, even the 120 km/h here in Ireland is dangerous. Not that I'm suggesting reducing it - but merely that as it is we have tailgaters etc. at that speed. Higher speeds than 120 would allow catastrophe.

Amtmann

Damn. Meant to post this in "Commuting and Transport".

I think we should do away with the limits after an improvement in driving standards has been achieved.
The motorways need to be the subject of a new NRA/RSA advertising and driver awareness campaign. The idea that speed alone trumps all else in the bad driving stakes seems to have been indoctrinated into a lot of people at this stage -- to the detriment, in my view, of other salient considerations, such as lane discipline, slow moving vehicles (such as tractors and, er, combines now too apparently) in inappropriate places, poor merging and overtaking skills, and tailgating.

nordydan

The M7/M8 from the M9 turnoff to Limerick/Fermoy (Nenagh Bypass and 5 km either side of the Portaloise toll excluded) could due with a raise in the speed limt.

I still think a speed limit of say the speed of sound, or 1,236km/hr should be kept on these sections (say 1,200km/hr for rounding purposes). We don't want to blasting off the eardrums of any farmers/sheep in nearby fields

Cookie_Monster

Needs a third option. I think 120 is too low but that unrestricted is just asking for trouble. A limit of 140kph would make sense IMO

westtip

Who cares - most of us just break the speed limits anyway, when I get pulled I just show my UK driving license and drive off as they say in Eurovision Nil points.

cc

I think 130kph should be applied on all capable sections, I don't think we can have unlimited sections so long as we still have old codgers on the road who have never done a test and so many others who don't know how to use a Motorway properly.

BluntGuy

I'd love to be able to drive a faster on our new motorway network. Sadly, in a nation where people stuggle to navigate roundabouts at 10 km/h, are oblivious to the notion of indicators, and park about as well as an elephant performs riverdance... I wouldn't feel comfortable with any speed increases. There are too many basics that need to be sorted out first.

dwtsot

I would be all for certainly increasing speed limits on Motorways. There are however pros and cons that should be considered.

Pros:
Consider this: I'd estimate that motorways have the lowest ratio of volume of users vs accidents over any other road type so why not increase the speed limits to reflect the safest road type available?

Cons:
Certainly education on how to drive on Motorways needs to be dealt with. I see the same issues all the time.

1: Idiot drivers on the outside lane holding up traffic when they could simply move over to the inside lane. IT'S AN OVERTAKING LANE!!! NOT YOUR DRIVEWAY!!! YOU CAN'T LIVE OUT THERE.
2: The idiot driver who stays out on the OVERTAKING lane when there are no cars around at all and only moves in when you've managed to get their attention by flashing your lights and you know they were away in a dream world. To make it worse they move back out into the OVERTAKING lane after you've passed. Have they any idea of the rules of the road at all?
3: The driver who drives at 120kph on the outside lane and ignores everyone else because they shouldn't be going faster than that anyway. Grow up! It's not your responsibility to police others. By doing what you are doing you are in effect the only driver doing something wrong. Tailgating is mostly a symptom of the anger generated by people not moving back into the left hand lane. There'd be a lot less of it if we actually used the lanes correctly.
4: Does anyone know that there is a third lane on the N7?? Everyone is supposed to be driving in it with two further OVERTAKING LANES outside it? You move into the second lane to overtake someone going slower than you and then move back into the inside lane again. You move into the third lane when you are overtaking someone in the second lane and then you move back into the inside lane!!!!! It's not that difficult people!!!!!

This understanding of lanes and their usage is what the Germans do far better than us (not that it wouldn't be hard). Until people understand this fact (and I'd love to see the Gardai actually police correct lane usage) increasing the speed limit is unwise. You have the NRA releasing adds on the TV about boy racers (and fair play to them, I hope it works) but not once do they try and tackle the other issues as highlighted above.

Whoaaa.. Nice rant!!! I feel better now. That is until I drive home later....

Tech3

I was looking at this issue myself a few weeks ago. The drivers in Germany are more experienced on motorways but saying that our interurbans are designed to go a lot faster than 120km/hr.

Now in the politics forum I saw a thread asking what would you do if you were in charge of the country, nearly every second post had said change the speed on the motorways to 140km/hr. This is an indication that the majority of the public believe our motorway speeds are too slow.

Certainly on the M1/M7/M8/M9 I would be in favor of no speed limits. I'm curious to know would any of the opposition parties be in favor of limit changes.?

Edit: I woudnt agree about the Ennis bypass having higher speed limits than 120km/hr. Gort-Crusheen should have no speed limit if it were to be introduced.

AugustusMaximus

Practically everyone breaks the limit on motorways as is and people drive at a speed which they are comfortable at.

Getting rid of speed limits will have no noticable difference as people who are now driving at their comfortable speed won't drive any faster.

nordydan

My only concern would be 150mph races by teenagers on the unlimited stretches, and they could probably get away with it

murphaph

I'd be opposed to any increase mostly on environmental grounds. Currently vehicles are generally awfully polluting at speeds such as 120km/h, it is even worse at higher speeds. If Ireland were to abolish motorway speed limits then Kyoto penalties would be applied and we'd have to buy more carbon credits. If anything you can probably expect a decrease (though I'd hate to see that too).

I also feel that on such a small island, 120km/h is actually grand. It doesn't take that long to get anywhere in Ireland at 120km/h really. If limits were to be raised we'd need an intensive re-education programme (we need that anyway tbh).

AugustusMaximus

murphaph wrote: »

I'd be opposed to any increase mostly on environmental grounds. Currently vehicles are generally awfully polluting at speeds such as 120km/h, it is even worse at higher speeds. If Ireland were to abolish motorway speed limits then Kyoto penalties would be applied and we'd have to buy more carbon credits. If anything you can probably expect a decrease (though I'd hate to see that too).

I also feel that on such a small island, 120km/h is actually grand. It doesn't take that long to get anywhere in Ireland at 120km/h really. If limits were to be raised we'd need an intensive re-education programme (we need that anyway tbh).

I remember Dan Boyle came out with the suggestion of lobbing 20kph off of 120 and 100kph limits.

The abuse he and the green party got over it meant the idea was buried there and then. (Hopefully). The way the green party is going, this would bury them.

Amtmann

nordydan wrote: »

My only concern would be 150mph races by teenagers on the unlimited stretches, and they could probably get away with it

I hear ya. Ideally there should be a dedicated Garda motorway corps and an NRA maintenance team. In addition, along with the proposed public education campaign there should also be a campaign to get people to switch from older routes to the motorways.

The recent "Cork to Kilkenny thread" emphasized this. You do not take the N24 and N76 to Kilkenny from Cork anymore. Instead you take the M8 to Urlingford - if you want to increase your chances of arriving alive (and early), of course. It seems to me that a lot of people are sticking to the old routes, simply because they're not aware that although the motorway route might seem more convoluted on a map, it's actually the quickest way. That's one reason I think; another is that old habits die hard.
Cork to Donegal provides another example. Until the M20 comes online, perhaps people should start taking the M8 to Thurles and go via Athlone instead. It reduces the scope for accidents to occur. If the motorways were concentrated on like this, they'd become that bit busier and could be policed more effectively. Then you could do away with limits and maximise the revolutionary connectivity potential that they offer.

Amtmann

murphaph wrote: »

I'd be opposed to any increase mostly on environmental grounds. Currently vehicles are generally awfully polluting at speeds such as 120km/h, it is even worse at higher speeds. If Ireland were to abolish motorway speed limits then Kyoto penalties would be applied and we'd have to buy more carbon credits. If anything you can probably expect a decrease

Good points. Are the Germans debating this at the moment, Murphaph?

AugustusMaximus

Furet wrote: »

Good points. Are the Germans debating this at the moment, Murphaph?

Green party was asking for speed limits but Merkel said no way.

Amtmann

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Green party was asking for speed limits but Merkel said no way.

I suppose autobahns and German cars connote speed and have passed into the realm of cultural institutions at this point. Surely the introduction of higher gears (i.e six or seven forward gears instead of just five) would also mitigate against pollution somewhat too.

murphaph

Furet wrote: »

I hear ya. Ideally there should be a dedicated Garda motorway corps and an NRA maintenance team. In addition, along with the proposed public education campaign there should also be a campaign to get people to switch from older routes to the motorways.

The recent "Cork to Kilkenny thread" emphasized this. You do not take the N24 and N76 to Kilkenny from Cork anymore. Instead you take the M8 to Urlingford - if you want to increase your chances of arriving alive (and early), of course. It seems to me that a lot of people are sticking to the old routes, simply because they're not aware that although the motorway route might seem more convoluted on a map, it's actually the quickest way. That's one reason I think; another is that old habits die hard.
Cork to Donegal provides another example. Until the M20 comes online, perhaps people should start taking the M8 to Thurles and go via Athlone instead. It reduces the scope for accidents to occur. If the motorways were concentrated on like this, they'd become that bit busier and could be policed more effectively. Then you could do away with limits and maximise the revolutionary connectivity potential that they offer.

Until satnavs become that bit more ubiquitous (everyone seems to have one here) and the mapping that bit more accurate, it'll remain like this. The NRA should have an online journey planner that is updated with new openings, but they don't.

ChocolateSauce

I think 150 would be a good speed. Very fast, but not stupidly so. The last time I was in Germany I got a taxi, and the driver was going 175 at night in the rain.

The scary part was the speed with which the metre went up.

BluntGuy

murphaph wrote: »

Until satnavs become that bit more ubiquitous (everyone seems to have one here) and the mapping that bit more accurate, it'll remain like this. The NRA should have an online journey planner that is updated with new openings, but they don't.

The NRA can't even update the most basic pages on its webpage. If you can't trust the NRA get simple dates right, then a comprehensive mapping service from them is sadly out of the question. They'd probably just use the outdated, incorrect one from Google Maps anyway.

In a hypothetical situation where Irish drivers know how to... well, drive... and cars were suitably environmentally friendly, what limit would I advocate? I think 150 km/h would suffice in general, there's definitely stretches I'd be comfortable going 180, 190... but then, there's also many, I quite simply wouldn't.

Slice

Irish motorways are too bendy to dispense with a speed limit

Lennoxschips

When I am in Germany I drive about 20 km/hr faster than normal, just because I go with the flow. But you often get these muppets in souped up Audis and Mercs driving way to fast and generally being a danger to everyone. To be honest, when I pass the border into Holland or Denmark I always feel a sense of relief and safety and slow down again.

And you really don't get there much faster anyway.

Chris_533976

I dont think it will be possible, most of our motorways (AFAIK) are designed for 160kmh, but you have to have the absolute design speed quite higher than that of the speed limit (its the same in the UK, their 70mph roads are built with a design limit of about 90-100mph).

Its not really needed in the country, plus the sightlines and curves just arent up to it (Ennis bypass, Cashel-Mitch and Athlone bypass for instance); although we could limit them to about 100-130 say (100 for Athlone anyway).

I dunno, the country is just too small to warrent it, plus people generally dont know how to drive here and with tractors insisting on using motorways; well Iwouldnt want to come up behind a tractor at 160kmh.

paddyland

Twice in the last week, I was travelling on the western (four lane) stretch of the M50, late in the evening. The road was practically deserted, just an occasional car here and there, most of those, as usual, in the centre lane.

What was of particular note, was that twice I saw driving instructor's cars being driven by individuals who I would reasonably assume were the instructors themselves, alone in the vehicle. In both cases, the instructor's cars were travelling at 100kmh in the centre lane, with nothing for a quarter of a mile around them except me.

Now if that is the caliber of driving instructors' knowledge of motorway procedure, I hope it is not reflected in their knowledge of the rest of good driving practice. I had a good mind to take their numbers and telephone them later and demand an explanation. But I have better things to be doing.

It should be compulsory for newly qualified drivers to immediately go out and get a certificate of competence for motorway driving, a lack of which would render their driving licence null and void. No test, simply an hour with a dedicated instructor in motorway driving, with a certificate of completion at the end.

The NRA appear to miss the point entirely about motorways. They should be primarily aimed at increasing the safety of journeys across medium to long distances. The situation which pertains with hundreds of idiots queued nose to tail in the centre lane in peak periods, with the first inside lane empty, completely negates any safety benefits, and in fact facilitates greater danger, with frustrated drivers taking chances undertaking and increased lane changing.

The NRA might as well not have bothered spending billions on third lanes, and given it to hospitals or something instead, if they cannot be bothered promoting safe and correct use of these new roads.

D.L.R.

Chris_533976 wrote: »

well Iwouldnt want to come up behind a tractor at 160kmh.

or a combine harvester

Carawaystick

paddyland wrote: »

It should be compulsory for newly qualified drivers to immediately go out and get a certificate of competence for motorway driving, a lack of which would render their driving licence null and void. No test, simply an hour with a dedicated instructor in motorway driving, with a certificate of completion at the end.

But there won't be motorways near a large swathe of the population;
Would the driver's giving instruction be the same people you're complaining about?
An hour of Motorway driving at certain times of the day could get you from the Red Cow to Sandyford, with a top legal speed 100, but 60 most of the way, and an actual top speed of less. What would this achieve?

Aidan1

At least the combine would (or should have lights (and flashing beacons) at the back - we (wife was driving) passed a tractor and trailer load of bales (one of two in convoy) on the M4 one night last autumn - he had lights and beacons on the tractor, but his trailer lights weren't working. He was doing 50kph presumably (Case CVX - the other tractor was a 20 series John Deere), we were in the driving lane doing in the general vicinity of the speed limit; that's a 70+ kph closing speed on something you can't see - our only clue that it was there was that I saw the beacons reflecting off the embankment at the side.

I called it in straight away, but in retrospect we should have pulled off at the next junction and followed him on the Motorway until the Gardai got there. It was beyond dangerous driving, it was reckless endangerment (if such a thing exists in law). A couple of high profile court cases is all it'll take before people using tractors on the motorway get the message. The only question is if it'll take a serious accident involving multiple fatalities before it starts.

The 3 lane section of the N7 is beyond a joke - the only explanation I can think of for people's behaviour is that they think the driving lane should be considered the same as the inner lanes between junctions on the revised M50 ('merging lanes'?). In some ways it's quite convenient - you can sit in the driving lane at 100kph, cruise control on, almost completely unhindered - only problem arises when you come across someone in the middle lane going 75kph, hugging the steering wheel, and wandering from side to side, and then have to make your way past them into the overtaking lane, and back in in front of them again. These people even have a name in the States - MLMs - Middle Lane Morons. I suggest we call ours MLEs - Middle Lane Eejits. They crop up all over the country.

A comprehensive and elongated advertising and education programme is needed though, starting with a revised rules of the road, revised DTT, and ideally a section of the test completed on dual carraigeway of some sort (including how to merge, lane discipline, and use of the overtaking lane). And then loads of tv advertising.

westtip

Furet wrote: »

I hear ya. Ideally there should be a dedicated Garda motorway corps and an NRA maintenance team. In addition, along with the proposed public education campaign there should also be a campaign to get people to switch from older routes to the motorways.

.

Why I drove from Greystones to Sligo on Monday morning - came off at Kilcock to avoid the 2.90 toll for 16 miles rejoined the motorway at Kinnegad- reckon it cost me about 8 minutes in lost travel time driving a diesel at 1.03 a litre would ahve pelted along the motorway at 85/90mph; so probably travelling at avg of 60 mph on the old N4 saved me fuel too. If I was driving this route every day would deffo toll dodge.

Amtmann

westtip wrote: »

Why I drove from Greystones to Sligo on Monday morning - came off at Kilcock to avoid the 2.90 toll for 16 miles rejoined the motorway at Kinnegad- reckon it cost me about 8 minutes in lost travel time driving a diesel at 1.03 a litre would ahve pelted along the motorway at 85/90mph; so probably travelling at avg of 60 mph on the old N4 saved me fuel too. If I was driving this route every day would deffo toll dodge.

I didn't have tolled sections in mind when I wrote that.