Where are the shy, gentle girls?

LegacyUser

It's so hard to meet the quiet, gentle girls. Everywhere I look, I meet loud, confident girls, many of whom are great fun and very popular. The pubs are full of girls laughing and shouting and drinking with the lads. The dating sites are full of girls who love partying and drinking, or who are sports freaks, or love bungie jumping and skydiving and all kinds of extreme entertainment. And that's great for them. They all share the same taste in men too, they want strong, confident sporty men, that can be the life and soul of the party, who they can show off to their mates, and who are the polar opposite of me.

I have no problems being confident. I have no fear of chatting to women. But I am not a big, strapping, sporty type. And I just don't like noisy nights out with the 'gang,' no matter how many times I have pretended to. It's just not me.

The only girls I have ever really fallen for, in a big way, were the very quiet, shy girls, the kind who sit in the corner like a mouse, who drop their eyes when you look at them, who whisper quietly, who would rather go for a moonlight stroll clinging to your arm than spend the night in a noisy pub. I get overcome with affection for these shy girls. No tanned, self confident girl will ever win me over. Before anyone says it, it is not a confidence issue, I had confidence issues years ago, and have plenty of confidence to chat to women now, and plenty of experience. I simply like what I like. Confident girls bore me. I am intrigued by shy girls.

So to the problem. I just can't seem to meet these shy girls. By their very nature, you won't find them in the pub. They are very thin on the ground on the online dating sites, too. I know guys who met lovely, shy girls, usually through work. Unfortunately, I work in a wholly male environment. I don't meet girls in work.

Where are the shy girls? They are so shy, they are hiding! Has anyone any suggestions how to meet these shy girls? Are there any particular clubs or organisations or charities or anywhere that I might meet up with quieter types? If I met enough of them, I might find one that likes me too!

shellyboo

Bookshops, coffee shops, the library? To be totally stereotypical about it!

Bloody Nipples

Shy? Or submissive? You seem to have a very black and white view of girls e.g. a girl drinking in a pub with her friends is confident. It doesn't take much confidence to buy a drink!!

LegacyUser

The OP wants a girl to cling to his arm? I have never laughed so much reading a post. Anywho, a guy I know found a nice, quiet, shy gentle girl who clings to him-I'm not joking but she is a Thai bride. She has no mind of her own but he's happy. Not sure if this is a solution, but as Irish women don't need a chaperone and can look (GASP) at gentlemen without being coy, he might just have to look abroad.

VaioCruiser

Hi OP.

I am afraid there are few quiet and modest girls left in Ireland. Most are confident and quite aggressive.

I have spent time with a couple of Asian women who are probably more your type. Very intelligent, but also quiet and modest and not so driven to be aggressive, assertive and dominant. Of course they regularly get a lot of heat from Irish girls because of this, but I would advise you to look in that direction.

All the best.

LegacyUser

I would describe myself as quite a shy, quiet girl, yet I still enjoy drinking in pubs with my friends. Not all shy people enjoy sitting in corners by themselves. Maybe you're just not looking hard enough!

Fugly

Op,
I think you really need to discuss what you want from women with someone. It's ok to prefer shy/reserved women, but what you've described is a submissive woman with self esteem issues. You say you yourself are confident and yet you wouldn't want the same from a woman? Why can't she be confident like you but not very out going. I think your post indicates more that you'd feel insecure about not being as confident as her more than you are simply attracted to shy girls.

I understand wanting someone who isn't to the pub/club scene, it makes some sense, but you shouldn't rule out a girl with a social life full stop, screams not healthy and really raises questions about your intentions.

Also why can't a tanned girl be shy, . ?

I've shy and reserved female friends (males as well) that I've met in school/college. And I know that with these girls, they're friends/family are very protective regarding men, and I know all would have a huge issue with your post if you wanted to date the girl, and although it would be her choice, friend/family approval is crucial for alot girls.

Also, I'm now an outgoing confident girl, I am one of the boys :rolleyes:. But I used to be painfully shy, on nights out I'd sit in the corner and spend the night going to the bathroom due to my shyness, and although I did like men who'd like me for it, I could never date someone who was purely interested in my shyness. The fact you want them to stay shy ,as you say, but I feel you mean submissive, also indicates maybe it's your problem not the lack of shy girls.

LegacyUser

There are shy girls in pubs and clubs too. Just becaouse the confident girls are the ones you see first don't assumes that the all the girls sitting by the bar/at a table/in a group are all the same. The problem is you are looking for the girl who is trying not to stand out from the crowd and who's just hoping there is a nice guy like you still looking :-) Try the pubs with quieter music, if the music too loud she won't want to be shouting at you trying to be heard.... find the speaker and go the opposite direction

blairbear

Girls who are loud and confident can be very gentle and kind natured as well. Being confident doesn't automatically mean you're brash and outspoken and not into romance and intimacy.

I'm kind of aghast at your post to be honest, OP. You want a woman who drops her eyes when you look at her, who sits in the corner like a mouse? I completely agree that you seem to looking for a submissive woman. Even in Victorian novels, women were more feisty than what you want.

I think you want someone to completely adore and idolise you, who has little or no social life of their own and won't ever give you any hassle or grief and never disagree with you.

Terodil

I'm surprised that so many responses here are putting the OP down like that. Well, maybe I should not be, but more to that in a minute.

If a woman said that she wanted a 'quiet, gentle' guy, I doubt anybody would bat an eyelash. A guy, however, who wants a 'quiet, gentle' girl is surely pathologically dominant? Talk about overinterpretation and conjecture.

I find that 'confidence' and 'assertiveness' are vastly overrated on PI/RI, and maybe in Ireland in general, and misunderstood. Especially women seem to believe that, to be emancipated, they must never show weakness or accept shortcomings or failures. Of course it is equally stupid if men assume that train of thought 'to be manly'. Our western culture is transitioning to an exhibitionist, loud one, where appearances vastly outweigh values, and weaknesses are considered k.o.-criteria. Therefore, to avoid problems, it is drilled into everybody (men and women alike) to outshine their real nature, to be loud, excessively confident, and to never ever take a critical look at themselves.

This is excessively idiotic because it inhibits all development. If you have no weaknesses, you have no motivation to grow or improve yourself. It's also idiotic in a personal relationship sense, because it is perfectly natural to develop protective/caring behaviour if somebody you are attached to shows that s/he is not perfect and needs occasional support too. Nobody wants a perfect being with no flaws. It would be terribly boring.

Confidence means that you are willing to accept yourself with strengths and weaknesses, and work on both. That you are willing to show the weakness to others too (within the boundaries of common sense, of course).

Anyway, sorry for the philosophising. @OP: Yep, by nature it's more difficult to find such people, and esp. to make them out in loud, noisy environments. But then it's hard to find 'the one' anyway. Just give it some time, you'll find the one for you in time. She'll probably appear when you least think of it.

Good luck.

LegacyUser

Terodil wrote: »

If a woman said that she wanted a 'quiet, gentle' guy, I doubt anybody would bat an eyelash. A guy, however, who wants a 'quiet, gentle' girl is surely pathologically dominant? Talk about overinterpretation and conjecture.

He wants a girl who won't look back at him when he looks at her. Being shy and gentle is not the same as being afraid to look someone in the eye.

Ickle Magoo

There is one thing not liking loud or overbearing people but not liking assertive people? Favouring

the kind who sit in the corner like a mouse, who drop their eyes when you look at them, who whisper quietly, who would rather go for a moonlight stroll clinging to your arm than spend the night in a noisy pub

does sound a bit peculiar.

OP,

I would definitely investigate why you want such a timid beast as a partner, if you get over any issue with assertive women it could well increase the number of possible partners available to you. I know a few very quiet people, I don't know any that would carry on as you describe. You also seem to favour compete generalisations about women and what they want, so I would imagine you are causing your own shortages by making such assumptions.

Best of luck

Diviltheone

Diviltheone wrote: »

The only girls I have ever really fallen for, in a big way, were the very quiet, shy girls, the kind who sit in the corner like a mouse, who drop their eyes when you look at them, who whisper quietly, who would rather go for a moonlight stroll clinging to your arm...

...and have the dinner ready when you come home, do as they're told and never talk back?
Maybe you SHOULD get a thai bride??

Otis Driftwood

bluewolf wrote: »

...and have the dinner ready when you come home, do as they're told and never talk back?
Maybe you SHOULD get a thai bride??

:rolleyes:

The OP has said himself that he isnt into the clubbing/partying scene so I dont know why he is getting so much stick,he would like to meet a similar person.Whats the big deal

Jesus some of you are making him sound like a neanderthol that wants someone to chain to the kitchen sink.

I dont know where you would meet this type of female OP.I know a few girls that would be more reserved than boisterous.I would prefer their company than someone that is loud.Thats not to say they dont know how to let their hair down and have a laugh though.

Just because a woman likes to have a few drinks doesnt mean she is some kind of ladette.

Maybe you shouldnt automatically judge a book by its cover.

Terodil

Unregistered wrote: »

He wants a girl who won't look back at him when he looks at her. Being shy and gentle is not the same as being afraid to look someone in the eye.

Yeah, but looking to the ground when somebody you fancy looks at you doesn't make anybody a housemouse or a submissive nothing. It has nothing to do with being able to talk back if they disagree. It's just different from aggressively staring back which may just not be the OP's cup of tea. And there's nothing wrong with preferring either.

nedtheshed

nedtheshed wrote: »

:rolleyes:

The OP has said himself that he isnt into the clubbing/partying scene so I dont know why he is getting so much stick,he would like to meet a similar person.Whats the big deal

Ned, I have no problem with someone who isn't into that "scene". I'm not into that scene, hell I'm often quiet and shy and god knows a quiet evening in a cafe is far preferable than a stupid club. What he described however, is someone who "sits in the corner like a mouse" and is afraid to look anyone in the eye. There is a LONG way between the two.

honru

Diviltheone wrote:

The only girls I have ever really fallen for, in a big way, were the very quiet, shy girls, the kind who sit in the corner like a mouse, who drop their eyes when you look at them, who whisper quietly, who would rather go for a moonlight stroll clinging to your arm than spend the night in a noisy pub.

You seem to be attracted to more submissive women that allow you to take the lead, and that's fine. Just the way you articulated the above sentence is amusing to say the least. :pac:

Best bet is to learn to approach these types of women during the day at coffee shops, book shops, etc.

Otis Driftwood

bluewolf wrote: »

Ned, I have no problem with someone who isn't into that "scene". I'm not into that scene, hell I'm often quiet and shy and god knows a quiet evening in a cafe is far preferable than a stupid club. What he described however, is someone who "sits in the corner like a mouse" and is afraid to look anyone in the eye. There is a LONG way between the two.

He probably could have worded his OP better but I still feel its unneccessary for anyone to throw the derogatory inferrals that have been leveled at him.Im not targeting yourself specifically BTW.

LegacyUser

Well, I'm a girl who shy and can be quite etc, not aggressive or loud but I AM confident. Lack of confidence, self esteem and social skills is a bad thing IMO. Although I can be shy I enjoy going to pubs and socializing but you would never catch me dancing on tables etc. I think you will miss on meet someone special because you are making very big assumption about people.

Schism

I started to reply to this but I began to meander around and double over on myself very quickly.

Long story short OP the type of girl you described in your post is probably not what you desire, although I think I can understand why you explained her as such. That type of girl would be lifeless and utterly bland.

No doubt you're feeling fed up with not being able to find someone but keep your chin up. Maybe try and forget about it for a while and have some fun, enjoy yourself. Women are more attracted to a happy guy than someone who feels they've already lost. You'd be surprised what can happen and who you can meet when you least expect it.

Hope that helps, best of luck.

Tight Jeans

Where are all the shy girls they are getting shagged by men. There is something very sexy about the shy ones but believe you me they are quiet lively in bed and know what they want. On a mental basis they are quiet smart but always wait for their chance where they will be heard instead of the girls who talk and no one hears them.

Nevyn

Unhelpful and off-topic posting will get you banned from this forum.
Do take time to read the charter which contains the rules and abide by them.
Have a nice day.
Thaedydal

DigiGal

Hi OP
I'm a painfully shy, quiet,modest girl.......but I still go to bars with my close friends and my OH and I certainly will not submit or become any sort of trophy girlfriend.Many girls can appear confident but actually are very shy and sweet,
Also I don't really understand why you have a problem with strong women its very, well ,worrying tbh...

Porkpie

OP, I can relate to what you're talking about. I love quiet girls and never cared for the really confident, loud, soul of the party type. Are you religious at all? I'm not but I know there are some religious groups that organise nights out and various social activities. Don't know what age you are but the youth groups have plenty of nice pleasant girls that might be more your type.

Otherwise you could try bookshops. What interests do these type of girls have? Maybe join a reading club? Chess club? Or you could look for foreign women. I find a lot of Asian women, particularly Chinese, Filipino, Thai etc very quiet and shy. You will find plenty of them on dating sites, why not sign up? You're having no luck as it is, after all.

Best of luck and ignore those who are responding negatively. Why should you be criticised for merely stating what you like?

LegacyUser

Whilst I have some sympathy with your not finding the 'ladette' type girls all that attractive, it really comes across like you are looking for a doormat. I really wouldn't know where to find such people, but if I did I'm not sure I'd want to tell you as I find your post a bit unnerving

LegacyUser

Again I would just like to say confidence is good not bad.

Shy, gentle, quite girls can still be confident just as loud, chatty girls can lack confidence.

The fact that you want someone who lacks confidence is a little scary.

LegacyUser

There are two huge assumptions being made by some posters here.

First, that I have some kind of 'problem' with confident girls. Wrong. I have many friends among popular, confident girls, and I get on great with all of them, but they are not really people I would have a relationship with. They are inclined to be people who live life at a very fast pace, with a never ending stream of work, socialising, clubs, meetings, family commitments, to the point that their lives are inclined to be mapped out from morning to night. They have large social circles, and surround themselves with lots of people. I prefer a much slower, quieter existence, and very much value my 'me' time, and hate being tied to times and dates more than just a couple of times a week. A night out once a week is enough for me, and spending the weekend alone with my partner rather than out on the town with the hordes.

Secondly, that I am seeking a 'submissive' girl. That word submissive is a horrible word, and reeks of domination and control issues. Perhaps some posters here have had bad experiences with controlling people in their lives, and see control freaks all around them, every time they turn their head. I am not a control freak, I am seeking a shy and quiet girl, who likes the quiet life, not somebody who has no self worth and falls easily under the thumb of the first thug who takes over her life.

I only came on to get some suggestions where I might meet more shy and quiet girls. While I'm sure some of them socialise in the pub with their friends, the pub is not a place I am going to meet any. I only asked for alternative suggestions. Maybe my choice of words wasn't great but I didn't come on to be picked apart by people who obviously have a lot of unresolved issues of their own.

Many thanks to the few helpful suggestions!

Eve_Dublin

Terodil wrote: »

I'm surprised that so many responses here are putting the OP down like that. Well, maybe I should not be, but more to that in a minute.

If a woman said that she wanted a 'quiet, gentle' guy, I doubt anybody would bat an eyelash. A guy, however, who wants a 'quiet, gentle' girl is surely pathologically dominant? Talk about overinterpretation and conjecture.

I find that 'confidence' and 'assertiveness' are vastly overrated on PI/RI, and maybe in Ireland in general, and misunderstood. Especially women seem to believe that, to be emancipated, they must never show weakness or accept shortcomings or failures. Of course it is equally stupid if men assume that train of thought 'to be manly'. Our western culture is transitioning to an exhibitionist, loud one, where appearances vastly outweigh values, and weaknesses are considered k.o.-criteria. Therefore, to avoid problems, it is drilled into everybody (men and women alike) to outshine their real nature, to be loud, excessively confident, and to never ever take a critical look at themselves.

This is excessively idiotic because it inhibits all development. If you have no weaknesses, you have no motivation to grow or improve yourself. It's also idiotic in a personal relationship sense, because it is perfectly natural to develop protective/caring behaviour if somebody you are attached to shows that s/he is not perfect and needs occasional support too. Nobody wants a perfect being with no flaws. It would be terribly boring.

Confidence means that you are willing to accept yourself with strengths and weaknesses, and work on both. That you are willing to show the weakness to others too (within the boundaries of common sense, of course).

Anyway, sorry for the philosophising. @OP: Yep, by nature it's more difficult to find such people, and esp. to make them out in loud, noisy environments. But then it's hard to find 'the one' anyway. Just give it some time, you'll find the one for you in time. She'll probably appear when you least think of it.

Good luck.

Porkpie wrote: »

Otherwise you could try bookshops. What interests do these type of girls have? Maybe join a reading club? Chess club? Or you could look for foreign women. I find a lot of Asian women, particularly Chinese, Filipino, Thai etc very quiet and shy. You will find plenty of them on dating sites, why not sign up? You're having no luck as it is, after all.

Best of luck and ignore those who are responding negatively. Why should you be criticised for merely stating what you like?

Yeah OP just has a preference for quiet girls and that's okay. The wording of his post made me laugh a little though, I have to say but hey, quiet girls need love too! I liked your post Terodil and I think you have a great insight there into the workings of modern life...we are told to act a certain away, to fake our confidence 'till we and everyone around us believes it and it's usually tips that involve walking into places with your head held high, looking people directly in the eye at all times, speaking loudly, clearly and purposefully, don't show any signs of weakness as they indicate lack of confidence and vulnerability blah blah. Confidence can't be faked and if it is, it's just that...fake.

Tips on finding these quiet girls....don't presume they're hanging out in bookshops or libraries! I worked in a bookshop and as a librarian for a few years (was supposed to do my masters a couple of years ago to be a fully qualified Librarian..haha!) and they're not as shy or retiring as you'd think. I worked with some very clever girls with opinions on most things and most definitely made their opinions known...and they could go pretty crazy on staff nights out (although admittedly they'd be home in bed by 10pm!). It doesn't necessarily follow that if people are massively into books and like to have a bit of quiet time alone, that they don't like to head down to the pub on a weekend night to socialise. I know where you're coming from though to some extent OP...some people never cease with the loud, bolshey behaviour and can't just give it a rest for a while...this is not confidence, this is pretending to be someone you're not and it's easy enough to see through if you've seen enough of it. I've no time for these types but honestly OP, do you not think you would have more success looking for a happy medium? A person who's comfortable enough in their own skin to be quiet and not have to steal the limelight ALL the time but also comfortable enough in themselves where they can speak up and express themselves every now and then? I can imagine someone so quiet could get quite tedious after a while.

Ah well....each to their own. I wish you the best of luck but these kinds aren't necessarily in the places you'd think they are OP. Keep an open mind and don't write off someone straight away...people's initial judgments of others are usually wrong so just remember that. Don't presume all women you meet are as they appear to be.

LegacyUser

hi... i would consider myself a shy kind of girl and have been told that from society generally throughout my life. only when i go out i really let my hair down after a few drinks. so when you walk in to that pub and see that girl at the bar laughing and dancing like theres no one watching...dont be so quick to judge..thats the same shy girl sober...also..shy girls dont wear fake tan??!

being a girl from the country and living in city i can see a huge difference (generally)between myself and city girls... i guess it could be the difference in environments that contributes to how outgoing you are...not always the case..

mood

OP a few of us quite girls have said he we go to pubs etc so you obviously can meet quite girls there. However, it sounds like you don't like pubs so try clubs, night classes, online dating etc.

People are only trying to help. Maybe you just choose you words poorly!

Eve_Dublin

Diviltheone wrote: »

There are two huge assumptions being made by some posters here.

First, that I have some kind of 'problem' with confident girls. Wrong. I have many friends among popular, confident girls, and I get on great with all of them, but they are not really people I would have a relationship with. They are inclined to be people who live life at a very fast pace, with a never ending stream of work, socialising, clubs, meetings, family commitments, to the point that their lives are inclined to be mapped out from morning to night. They have large social circles, and surround themselves with lots of people. I prefer a much slower, quieter existence, and very much value my 'me' time, and hate being tied to times and dates more than just a couple of times a week. A night out once a week is enough for me, and spending the weekend alone with my partner rather than out on the town with the hordes.

Secondly, that I am seeking a 'submissive' girl. That word submissive is a horrible word, and reeks of domination and control issues. Perhaps some posters here have had bad experiences with controlling people in their lives, and see control freaks all around them, every time they turn their head. I am not a control freak, I am seeking a shy and quiet girl, who likes the quiet life, not somebody who has no self worth and falls easily under the thumb of the first thug who takes over her life.

I only came on to get some suggestions where I might meet more shy and quiet girls. While I'm sure some of them socialise in the pub with their friends, the pub is not a place I am going to meet any. I only asked for alternative suggestions. Maybe my choice of words wasn't great but I didn't come on to be picked apart by people who obviously have a lot of unresolved issues of their own.

Many thanks to the few helpful suggestions!

Okay but you have to understand the wording of your original post is a little, eh, open to misinterpretation and that's why some people were getting on your case. You're looking for a girl who's not confident, so you're looking for a girl lacking confidence to some degree but why? How can any one here possibly recommend places for you to go to meet these types of girls? You have to admit that the wording of your original post was a little off OP? Quiet and retiring does not equate to lacking in confidence, sometimes it indicates a quietly confident person...perhaps that's what you're looking for?

I don't know. At the end of the day, if everyone knew where to go to find Mr/Mrs Right, PI would be closed down. You have the same problems as most single people out there and everyone has a type. Best of luck.

seraphimvc

Terodil wrote: »

I'm surprised that so many responses here are putting the OP down like that. Well, maybe I should not be, but more to that in a minute.

If a woman said that she wanted a 'quiet, gentle' guy, I doubt anybody would bat an eyelash. A guy, however, who wants a 'quiet, gentle' girl is surely pathologically dominant? Talk about overinterpretation and conjecture.

I find that 'confidence' and 'assertiveness' are vastly overrated on PI/RI, and maybe in Ireland in general, and misunderstood. Especially women seem to believe that, to be emancipated, they must never show weakness or accept shortcomings or failures. Of course it is equally stupid if men assume that train of thought 'to be manly'. Our western culture is transitioning to an exhibitionist, loud one, where appearances vastly outweigh values, and weaknesses are considered k.o.-criteria. Therefore, to avoid problems, it is drilled into everybody (men and women alike) to outshine their real nature, to be loud, excessively confident, and to never ever take a critical look at themselves.

This is excessively idiotic because it inhibits all development. If you have no weaknesses, you have no motivation to grow or improve yourself. It's also idiotic in a personal relationship sense, because it is perfectly natural to develop protective/caring behaviour if somebody you are attached to shows that s/he is not perfect and needs occasional support too. Nobody wants a perfect being with no flaws. It would be terribly boring.

Confidence means that you are willing to accept yourself with strengths and weaknesses, and work on both. That you are willing to show the weakness to others too (within the boundaries of common sense, of course).

Anyway, sorry for the philosophising. @OP: Yep, by nature it's more difficult to find such people, and esp. to make them out in loud, noisy environments. But then it's hard to find 'the one' anyway. Just give it some time, you'll find the one for you in time. She'll probably appear when you least think of it.

Good luck.

perfect i do hope that more people will get what's Terodil trying to say here.

As a foreigner myself,altho i dont share a similar 'taste' on girls like OP,but i think OP's taste is absolutely acceptable - since the type of irish girls are not diverse enough,you probably hard to find a girl like that everywhere.since active girls = love to go out alot.

i bet you have a better chance in finding them in library ^_^i do find the girls who love reading fit in OP's taste!

hupyago

I think you just find them in different activities like art ,natural things like organic gardening wwoofing ,caring for animals and the like anything to do with the arts, galleries theatre, music ,bookshops, bookclubs, theatre groups
anything spiritual :buddhist centres ,retreat centres spiritual groups
also charities, groups like amnesty etc
also volunteer work and travel are good ways
you're probably looking in the wrong places
go with your interests you should meet people easily through them
good luck

poncho000

i think most posters here have completely misunderstood the OP. I mean come on he was hardly being literal about a girl sitting in the corner like a mouse.
I completely understand what you are on about OP and my advice is this:
Avoid irish girls.
My girlfriend is foreign. In fact she is asian. She is extremely intelligent and she isn't into the club/pub scene at all, like me. She 's a class act. She wouldnt exactly fit your profile in the sense that she is very independant and confident in herself and her own ability, but actually i think thats what you're really after. And to be honest its a quality that i find is only on foreign woman.

LadyJ

OP, don't listen to this crap about avoiding Irish women. It's ridiculous to completely write off a whole nationality of women. Some Irish women are exactly the kind of girls you're looking for. I know and have known plenty who fit your description.

When you are looking for love, it can seem frustrating and hard to find but that's just because you're aware that you're looking for it.

The girls you describe are all over the place. There is no one place you're sure to find them. They go to college, the go to pubs, they go out for lunch, they go shopping, they walk the streets. They're just people. They don't have a particular hangout so just keep your eyes peeled and your mind open.

wylo

In fairness to the posters your first post made you look like someone who was majorly insecure and needed someone even less secure so you could feel "stronger".