Hostility

Stones85

I just recently joined the Pioneers association of Ireland for 1 year, my reason being my excessive drinking was destroying my health, family life and the usual drunken antics of fighting, verbal abuse and womanising.

Initiallly I'd no clue as to what was required so I researched it on their web-site, abstain from alcohol, self sacrifice for those who are struggling with the excesses of drink..... PERFECT!

So I pretty much changed overnight in my friends eyes (i was in medjugoje for 7 days, family made me go, so glad i did), but their hostility and downright derision towards what I'm doing is astounding!! Snide nasty comments about religion and why I was doing what I was doing.

I never told anyone I was a pioneer until they asked why I wasn't drinking, I'd leave it at that unless they asked what that was, then I'd tell them briefly. So I'm not in anyway preaching to anyone, I only wear the small pin as it's a requirement.

Some of the lads wont talk to me reaaly anymore....

I'm not at all upset about it like, I know I'm doing a good thing, the RIGHT thing, but was astounded by peoples reactions and attempts to put me down with their vipor sarcasm.

Anyone else experience this type of thing?????
Why do people do it?

Coriolanus

People react like that because generally speaking they see others actions as a judgement on their own. In a lot of people's eyes, this kind of thing is black and white. So, you giving up drink and asserting that it's a good thing is prima facie a judgement upon them still drinking. At least that's how a lot of people will see it.
This'll happen regardless of your presented attitude to their behaviour. Even if you're really not being judgemental, some people will still pick up on it.
I get a similar reaction both to my relative lack of drinking (I'm not a pioneer nor a teetotaller just very, very strict with myself on it for some personal reasons) and when it comes out that I'm an atheist. Some people can't help but react that way.

Or something like that anyway. :pac:

Stones85

Nevore wrote: »

People react like that because generally speaking they see others actions as a judgement on their own. In a lot of people's eyes, this kind of thing is black and white. So, you giving up drink and asserting that it's a good thing is prima facie a judgement upon them still drinking. At least that's how a lot of people will see it.
This'll happen regardless of your presented attitude to their behaviour. Even if you're really not being judgemental, some people will still pick up on it.
I get a similar reaction both to my relative lack of drinking (I'm not a pioneer nor a teetotaller just very, very strict with myself on it for some personal reasons) and when it comes out that I'm an atheist. Some people can't help but react that way.

Or something like that anyway. :pac:

Yeah I had 1 fella gon on about how he liked to get "**** faced" as it was like a hobby, I get that, sure I used to join him in doing it. he got all aggressive, so I said listen chief thats fine, its not for me anymore, if you like it then do it, what do you care what I do....... in reply I got silence and ignored for a while.

PS Quite literally got a phone call not 5 minutes ago from a "friend" saying "so you're all christian now hahahahaha" "where's your pin hahahahahaha" "click" he hangs up.

_Epic_

When you stop drinking you quickly find out who your friends are as opposed to your "drinking buddies"...

I've found it to be no great loss to have those people no longer in my life.

Turtwig

The easiest way to shut them up would be to lie and say that you've got a severe form of diabetes or something? If they're still mocking you over religion then they're absolute twats!

On a side note, I don't drink either. Some people treat you funnily, weirdest one ever was someone saying to me that I was far too religious and that there's no harm in drinking. Thing is I was (and still am:)) an atheist??
Does the bible say that one shouldn't drink???

Stones85

Malty_T wrote: »

The easiest way to shut them up would be to lie and say that you've got a severe form of diabetes or something? If they're still mocking you over religion then they're absolute twats!

On a side note, I don't drink either. Some people treat you funnily, weirdest one ever was someone saying to me that I was far too religious and that there's no harm in drinking. Thing is I was (and still am:)) an atheist??
Does the bible say that one shouldn't drink???

Haha, na I wouldn't bother lieing to them.

See thing is I'm not "religious", bar medjugorje I hadn't really been to mass or confession since I left home at 18, and I honestly couldn't have cared less. But that attidude changed, dont know how or why.

I'm going to say to the next sniggering cnut who trys to embarrass me in front of people. "listen man, what I do is my business, the oath I took stops me from drinking...... not breaking your jaw" I won't be laughed at.

Nothing they do will change my mind. I'm happy in what I'm doing and the little exploring of catholicism I've done so far is hugely interesting.

Don't have a clue what the bible says about drink...

_Epic_

To be honest, I don't think lying about it is the way to go. This'll just leave you open to more hostility when they eventually find out you've lied.

The truth is, giving up the drink is a very hard thing to do (especially in this country!), and you're always going to have your fair share of idiots who can't understand any reason for giving it up and won't accept any answers you give them. I found that people couldn't understand how I could enjoy myself without having a few pints and felt uncomfortable because of this when I was around. Strange but true!

How I got through it was to smile and take the slagging, they'll eventually get bored and move on. Some friends were lost along the way but the only thing we had in common was a love of the drink so they were acceptable losses. Well done for giving it up, it takes more balls to do what you want then to do what other people want you to do!

Calhoun

OP, Personal opinion here but i think what it could be is that, by you making this decision in a way it makes them reflect inwards on themselves and possibly makes them question if they also have a problem.

Maybe its not something the want to see so could be why they act in such a way, hoping to put enough peer pressure on you to change your mind.

Personally i would ignore them and stick to your guns. I am not a pioneer but i dont like drinking all the time, life is to short to have it go by in a drunken haze.

There are lots of stuff you could organise that doesnt require drink. Hope it works out for you and your mates cop on.

Turtwig

Stones85 wrote: »

Haha, na I wouldn't bother lieing to them.

See thing is I'm not "religious", bar medjugorje I hadn't really been to mass or confession since I left home at 18, and I honestly couldn't have cared less. But that attidude changed, dont know how or why.

I'm going to say to the next sniggering cnut who trys to embarrass me in front of people. "listen man, what I do is my business, the oath I took stops me from drinking...... not breaking your jaw" I won't be laughed at.

Nothing they do will change my mind. I'm happy in what I'm doing and the little exploring of catholicism I've done so far is hugely interesting.

Don't have a clue what the bible says about drink...

Yeah, lying isn't the way to go. But It'd be interesting to see if your friends are actually taking the piss because of a religious prejudice. Catholicism is interesting in many ways and there are many people here Christian and non Christian that can give you insightful advice of any faith you choose.(Including Atheism, though it's technically not one.)

My favourite line to people asking me was
"Well, who do you want to carry you when your unconscious?"

Anyways, All I can say is best of luck with your new habit and make sure to save the money saved from no drink on something special

Fanny Cradock

Sorry to hear about your troubles. To be perfectly honest, if they are being that obnoxious then it sounds like you need a new set of friends. Alternatively you may need to explin things to them. As for punching them in the face, well, I suggest that such a thing isn't really what we should aspire to as Christians.

Maybe check out an Alpha Course where you will hopefully meet like minded (or at least tolerent) people and explore what it is you believe. They also give free cake!

philologos

Malty_T wrote: »

Does the bible say that one shouldn't drink???

The Bible encourages moderation. Not drunkenness. Some people feel that they can best keep from drunkenness by not having anything to do with drinking.

There are three camps in Christianity on this:

1. Prohibitionist - A person who believes that drinking is forbidden for Christians, and that one should keep away from it entirely. They regard references to wine as in the situation of Jesus at Cana to be non-alcoholic, and other wine as in the case of Noah in Genesis to be alcoholic. As such they regard alcohol to be forbidden for Christians.

2. Abstentionist - A person who believes that they should stay away from drink, but realises that some people can effectively moderate what they drink. It just isn't for them.

3. Moderationalist - A person who believes that they can control how much they drink without getting drunk.

toiletduck

As has been said, a lot of people just take it as a judgment on their own ways. That and the drinking culture here makes anyone going dry stand out a mile in any social events.

OP maybe check out the Non-Drinkers forum

homer911

1 Timothy 5:23 - ..Take a little wine for the sake of your stomach

Ephesians 5:18 - Do not be drunk with wine..

I subscribe to moderation in all things..

Zombrex

It sounds like these people aren't really your friends. I would say you are better off with out them.

People don't like being reminded of their own excess, so they turn it into hostility towards others who are abstaining from what they are doing. We relieve our own guilt at doing something we know we probably shouldn't (like going out and getting drunk) by getting others to participate in it with us. If everyone else is doing it it can't be that bad. When others refuse that simply re-enforces the tinge of guilt.

Unfortunately some people who don't like feeling bad get angry towards the person who triggered this, even though all they have done is say they don't want a drink. It is quite ridiculous that some of your "friends" get annoyed at you, but it is down to their own issues with their own life style and nothing to do with you. But as I said above if they are that immature you are probably better off without them.

AtomicHorror

Stones85 wrote: »

I just recently joined the Pioneers association of Ireland for 1 year, my reason being my excessive drinking was destroying my health, family life and the usual drunken antics of fighting, verbal abuse and womanising.

I'd say most people would have less of a problem with this explanation than one which relates to religion. Now this does not excuse the hostility, but they may have perceived the religious justification as being rather sanctimonious, or a least used that as an excuse to cover up the real reason for the aggression, which is probably as Wicknight suggests above. Guilt and resentment.

Tell these people what caused you to quit drink. Not the religious justification but the simple fact that you didn't like yourself on it. Religion may well have been the trigger, but I'd be willing to bet that this was something you'd thought about before. That dissatisfaction with one's drunken self is the classic reason cited by ex alcoholics for abstaining and it makes perfect sense to me. I do not abstain but I know people who do for this reason and I respect them for their strength. I also know people who would really do well to follow that example and it is very hard to respect them. If your friends cannot accept the simple fact that you were not happy with the person you were when drinking, then they are rubbish friends.

dvpower

Whats behind your friends hostility? Is it the fact that you've given up the drink or their perception that you've taken up religion?

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

Here's the thing, a lot of people who give up alcohol think they're doing something special and oh so amazing by abstaining, and have a holier-than-thou attitude about it. Maybe some don't, but most do.

You say you don't rub it on people's faces, but still you wear a pin that advertises to the world that you don't drink alcohol.

Let me explain by way of analogy, I dislike asparagus. I really intensely dislike asparagus, its texture and its taste, even though it is widely considered a delicacy. I will not choose myself to eat asparagus. If I am offered asparagus, I will decline.

My friends, those who considered themselves to have a refined palate, tell me I am fool for shunning what is a delicious delicacy, that I am missing out for not enjoying one of the finer foods. Yet, I do not moan about it. I don't go onto online message boards and moan and rant about how my friends harass me and don't understand me and how they won't leave me alone about the asparagus issue[/].

I don't wear a little pin that superciliously declares to the world my shunning of asparagus. I do not sign up to a little organisation that says that asparagus is evil, that it should be abstained from.

Yet, people do that with alcohol. They think that because they have given up their drink choice everyone should recognise that struggle they've made and support them and not saying anything at all that offends their delicate world view. How self-righteous, how self-centred. At the end of the day, no-one really cares that you don't drink alcohol, it's that you make such a big deal out of it that is annoying. And it's unreasonable to expect people not to try and get you to drink. I wouldn't have many friends if I got personally offended at every asparagus related ribbing I got for not eating, at every attempt to put it on my plate.

Now, at this stage, you people are probably scoffing, you say, well alcohol is soo different to asparagus, alcohol destroys lives, alcohol is dangerous blah blah BLAH. Well, beyond that there is a deeper question of personal responsibility etc. etc. that I'm not going into, but essentially you probably feel that the analogy isn't justified. Well, asparagus is easy to talk about, I don't like asparagus. But maybe here's a more appropriate analogy, hamburgers. Fatty food is undoubtedly a much bigger killer than alcohol is. Yet, if there were organisations devoted to the abstinence of fatty food that took themselves as seriously and dogmatically as alcohol abstinence organisations do, they would be laughed, openly laughed at in the streets. So why the special treatment for alcohol? it's bull****, I say.

(Oh, and before the predictable come back, WeightWatchers et al. do not count, they exist for the purposes of losing weight, they do not advocate the complete abstinence of bad food, rather their consumption in moderation, moderation being defined purely as that which does not make you fat).

tldr; Stop taking your abstinence so seriously. And get a sense of humour, if the Jesus freaks didn't knock that all out of you.


edit: Also, how arrogant and hubristic these Pioneers are!

Compare the organisation to the dictionary definition of the word:
• a person who is among the first to explore or settle a new country or area.
• a person who is among the first to research and develop a new area of knowledge or activity

I mean, come on..

PDN

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Here's the thing, a lot of people who give up alcohol think they're doing something special and oh so amazing by abstaining, and have a holier-than-thou attitude about it. Maybe some don't, but most do.

You say you don't rub it on people's faces, but still you wear a pin that advertises to the world that you don't drink alcohol.

Let me explain by way of analogy, I dislike asparagus. I really intensely dislike asparagus, its texture and its taste, even though it is widely considered a delicacy. I will not choose myself to eat asparagus. If I am offered asparagus, I will decline.

My friends, those who considered themselves to have a refined palate, tell me I am fool for shunning what is a delicious delicacy, that I am missing out for not enjoying one of the finer foods. Yet, I do not moan about it. I don't go onto online message boards and moan and rant about how my friends harass me and don't understand me and how they won't leave me alone about the asparagus issue[/].

I don't wear a little pin that superciliously declares to the world my shunning of asparagus. I do not sign up to a little organisation that says that asparagus is evil, that it should be abstained from.

Yet, people do that with alcohol. They think that because they have given up their drink choice everyone should recognise that struggle they've made and support them and not saying anything at all that offends their delicate world view. How self-righteous, how self-centred. At the end of the day, no-one really cares that you don't drink alcohol, it's that you make such a big deal out of it that is annoying. And it's unreasonable to expect people not to try and get you to drink. I wouldn't have many friends if I got personally offended at every asparagus related ribbing I got for not eating, at every attempt to put it on my plate.

Now, at this stage, you people are probably scoffing, you say, well alcohol is soo different to asparagus, alcohol destroys lives, alcohol is dangerous blah blah BLAH. Well, beyond that there is a deeper question of personal responsibility etc. etc. that I'm not going into, but essentially you probably feel that the analogy isn't justified. Well, asparagus is easy to talk about, I don't like asparagus. But maybe here's a more appropriate analogy, hamburgers. Fatty food is undoubtedly a much bigger killer than alcohol is. Yet, if there were organisations devoted to the abstinence of fatty food that took themselves as seriously and dogmatically as alcohol abstinence organisations do, they would be laughed, openly laughed at in the streets. So why the special treatment for alcohol? it's bull****, I say.

(Oh, and before the predictable come back, WeightWatchers et al. do not count, they exist for the purposes of losing weight, they do not advocate the complete abstinence of bad food, rather their consumption in moderation, moderation being defined purely as that which does not make you fat).

tldr; Stop taking your abstinence so seriously. And get a sense of humour, if the Jesus freaks didn't knock that all out of you.


edit: Also, how arrogant and hubristic these Pioneers are!

Compare the organisation to the dictionary definition of the word:
• a person who is among the first to explore or settle a new country or area.
• a person who is among the first to research and develop a new area of knowledge or activity

I mean, come on..

Feel better after that little rant?

If you think someone wearing a pin is "making a big deal" out of their abstinence then you must froth at the mouth every time you see someone wearing a tee shirt with a slogan on it.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

PDN wrote: »

Feel better after that little rant?

If you think someone wearing a pin is "making a big deal" out of their abstinence then you must froth at the mouth every time you see someone wearing a tee shirt with a slogan on it.

"Feel better after that little rant?" what a horrible, nasty little comment. I was simply offering my opinion, as I assume the thread was set up for. Though I have realised from past experiences that going against the status quo in the superstitious forums (Christianity, Spirituality etc.) is 'frowned upon', I thought it was alright seeing as I wasn't criticizing Christianity per se, just an organisation whose views I disagree with which so happens to be Christian.

Seriously, do you have that much of a problem with me having a point of view that goes against that of the OPs? Is there any point at all in a discussion board existing if we're not allowed disagree with one another? (and having such disagreements fairly assessed and considered, rather than being cut down with snide, snarky little comments)

And yes, if someone had a t-shirt vocally exclaiming their abstinence to alcohol, I think I would see red. Horrible people like that make life not worth living at times.

Fanny Cradock

I don't care much for your opinions, and as a mod of this forum I don't have to entertain them. Take it to AH or some such if you really want to continue your rather bizarre and bitter diatribe against non-drinkers.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

Oh sure you don't have to entertain them, but it's a bit silly to be going "Oh, I'm a mod, I don't like that opinion and if you don't want to be banned you better stop expressing it, even though you're neither off-topic nor in breach of the forum charter". Or if I'm misrepresenting your views there, please explain to me how.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with 'people who don't drink alcohol', I just think people who label themselves as 'non-drinkers' are often remarkably arrogant people and their opinions can be quite alienating to (the majority of) people who see nothing wrong with the odd pint. And I tried to illustrate my point by analogy to 'abstaining' from something that isn't so politicized as alcohol. Really mods, why is that so awful? Please attack my argument on its own merits, rather than threatening bans.

The OP sounds like a really nice guy, and non-judgmental, but I'd just question his need to do certain things, like wear the pin. I've been reading through the Pioneers website, and they do sound like a rather nasty, reactionary organisation who crusade against the perceived evils of alcohol (even though homer911 was able to point out some choice bible quotes which seemed to indicate that the consumption of alcohol in moderation is perfectly ok).

I would point out something about the seeming 'un-Christian' attitude on the part of Fanny Cradock, but I'll abstain...er, refrain. Again, experience has shown me that being called out on hypocrisy is something that people react to even worse than having to face a dissenting opinion.

ironingbored

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

But maybe here's a more appropriate analogy, hamburgers. Fatty food is undoubtedly a much bigger killer than alcohol is. Yet, if there were organisations devoted to the abstinence of fatty food that took themselves as seriously and dogmatically as alcohol abstinence organisations do, they would be laughed, openly laughed at in the streets. So why the special treatment for alcohol? it's bull****, I say.

Before coming out with sweeping generalisations you might do some research. I'm an atheist, a very, very moderate drinker and a proponent of healthy eating; organic, local, if possible.

The abuse of alcohol in Ireland is has reached epidemic proportions ruining the lives of abusers and family members alike. While I dislike the culture of fast food and convenience, overweight people rarely if ever vomit, piss and fight in the street. They rarely psychologically blackmail or bankrupt their families.

I am delighted for the OP and only wish more people in Ireland would embrace moderation if not abstinence. I have enjoyed the news items of Irish people travelling to the North to do their "food" shopping because it's "so much cheaper", only for the camera to zoom in on a trolley full of cheap beer, spirits and junk food.

Although I mightn't like the fact that the OP has embraced a religious group in order to give up drinking but best of look to him!

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

ironingbored wrote: »

Before coming out with sweeping generalisations you might do some research. I'm an atheist, a very, very moderate drinker and a proponent of healthy eating; organic, local, if possible.

The abuse of alcohol in Ireland is has reached epidemic proportions ruining the lives of abusers and family members alike. While I dislike the culture of fast food and convenience, overweight people rarely if ever vomit, piss and fight in the street. They rarely psychologically blackmail or bankrupt their families.

Yep, well that is definitely true

Fanny Cradock

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Oh sure you don't have to entertain them, but it's a bit silly to be going "Oh, I'm a mod, I don't like that opinion and if you don't want to be banned you better stop expressing it, even though you're neither off-topic nor in breach of the forum charter". Or if I'm misrepresenting your views there, please explain to me how.

Did you bother to read my post? Or are you just happy putting words in my mouth? In case you didn't read the sign on the way in: this is the Christianity forum. If you wish to discuss Christianity within the boundary of the charter then that is just fine. However, other than your derogatory reference to 'Jesus freaks' (something that isn't appreciated around here and will get you banned if you persist), I fail to see what your ironically arrogant rant (that criticises people you see as arrogant) has to do with the subject matter of this forum.

I would point out something about the seeming 'un-Christian' attitude on the part of Fanny Cradock, but I'll abstain...er, refrain. Again, experience has shown me that being called out on hypocrisy is something that people react to even worse than having to face a dissenting opinion.

Ah, I see! Because I deeply suspect you of being a troll here to whip up trouble I am being 'un-Christian'. You must specialise in unintentional irony. I guess that you must have forgotten about previously accusing non-drinkers of being self-righteousness before delivering an unfounded broadside in relation to my 'un-Christian' attitude.

Not only do I think that you are here simply to cause trouble, I also suspect you speak out of total ignorance. Hence your posts that simply beg for a response that gives you an excuse to get you in a tizzy and your very odd and deeply flawed asparagus analogy.

But even if you sincerely believe that people who "label themselves as 'non-drinkers' are often remarkably arrogant people and their opinions can be quite alienating to (the majority of) people" it has no place on this forum. I would suggest that if you have a problem with these people then you should take it up with them. But perhaps it would be best to walk a mile in their shoes first (and the the shoes of their loved ones who have to deal with the fallout of something like alcoholism, for example) before launching into sweeping generalisations and petty insults and belittling the struggle of some courageous people.

Here you discuss Christianity or matter from a Christian perspective. You can take your opinions about non-drinkers elsewhere on Boards.

Zombrex

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

I don't go onto online message boards and moan and rant about how my friends harass me and don't understand me and how they won't leave me alone about the asparagus issue[/].

No, you go online to moan and rant about how a complete stranger doesn't like to drink ... much better :rolleyes:

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Did you bother to read my post? Or are you just happy putting words in my mouth? In case you didn't read the sign on the way in: this is the Christianity forum. If you wish to discuss Christianity within the boundary of the charter then that is just fine.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I fail to see what your ironically arrogant rant (that criticises people you see as arrogant) has to do with the subject matter of this forum. [/QUOTE}

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

But even if you sincerely believe that people who "label themselves as 'non-drinkers' are often remarkably arrogant people and their opinions can be quite alienating to (the majority of) people" it has no place on this forum.

Blah Blah Blah. Blaaaah. This is your favourite line. Yet surely, even a Christian could see that I simply responding to the OP? If I am off-topic, then surely the OP is too, if he is on-topic, then I am. It really is that simple.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Ah, I see! Because I deeply suspect you of being a troll here to whip up trouble I am being 'un-Christian'. You must specialise in unintentional irony. I guess that you must have forgotten about previously accusing non-drinkers of being self-righteousness before delivering an unfounded broadside in relation to my 'un-Christian' attitude.

My accusation was more based on your implicit threat of banning me, because of having an opinion that was different to the prevailing one.

"I don't care much for your opinions, and as a mod of this forum I don't have to entertain them."

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Not only do I think that you are here simply to cause trouble,

I'm not.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

your very odd

oh definitely

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

and deeply flawed asparagus analogy.

Explain why it is deeply flawed...(or don't, if you don't want the thread to be further 'derailed', but if you do, I will happy to debate it with you, this isn't me backing away out of fear of losing an argument.)

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

However, other than your derogatory reference to 'Jesus freaks' (something that isn't appreciated around here and will get you banned if you persist)

:pac:

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Here you discuss Christianity or matter from a Christian perspective. You can take your opinions about non-drinkers elsewhere on Boards.

Your Charter says opinions from non-Christians are welcome?

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

Wicknight wrote: »

No, you go online to moan and rant about how a complete stranger doesn't like to drink ... much better :rolleyes:

Thing is...why not just go out and have a pint with them? Deep down, they probably just miss their old drinking buddy. A pint isn't going to kill you, no matter what the Pioneers say.

Zombrex

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Thing is...why not just go out and have a pint with them? Deep down, they probably just miss their old drinking buddy. A pint isn't going to kill you, no matter what the Pioneers say.

Sorry but that is ridiculous.

The OP has already detailed why he no longer wants to drink. The fact that some in this country find that difficult to deal with is rather telling, considering the huge levels of alcohol abuse that takes place in this country.

philologos

ZWEI VIER ZWEI: Listen and listen good

I have no issue with you referring to Christians as Jesus freaks, that's fine with me :pac:

Continuing on, people give up drinking for numerous reasons. Personally I've decided to do the same. I just don't feel it is beneficial for me, I prefer to have a clear mind. As a Christian I also feel that it hinders me spiritually somewhat when I have drank in the past.

As for the OP complaining about peoples reactions, yes perhaps it is over the top. However, I have found myself that some people can be rather pushy when it comes to drink. I would politely refuse, and they would continue to ask. I think to myself, what is the big deal about me deciding, just not to have anything to drink? It's not the worst thing in the world, perhaps a minor annoyance.

Unlike the OP, I don't feel a need to join a pioneers group or the like. However, if it helps him and if people give him genuine advice, isn't that for the better?

The OP isn't a prohibitionist, he isn't saying that none of you should drink ever. Rather all that is being said, is that drink isn't for them. Fair enough, I would have thought. I would hold an abstentionist attitude myself.

Sam Vimes

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Here you discuss Christianity or matter from a Christian perspective. You can take your opinions about non-drinkers elsewhere on Boards.

In fairness this is a thread about hostility shown to non-drinkers and that's exactly what he's talking about. You might not agree with his point and might think he's expressing it in the wrong way but it is the topic of the thread. You're telling him that his opinions on non-drinkers aren't welcome on a thread about hostility shown to non-drinkers

gaynorvader

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Here's the thing, a lot of people who give up alcohol think they're doing something special and oh so amazing by abstaining, and have a holier-than-thou attitude about it. Maybe some don't, but most do.

You say you don't rub it on people's faces, but still you wear a pin that advertises to the world that you don't drink alcohol.

Let me explain by way of analogy, I dislike asparagus. I really intensely dislike asparagus, its texture and its taste, even though it is widely considered a delicacy. I will not choose myself to eat asparagus. If I am offered asparagus, I will decline.

My friends, those who considered themselves to have a refined palate, tell me I am fool for shunning what is a delicious delicacy, that I am missing out for not enjoying one of the finer foods. Yet, I do not moan about it. I don't go onto online message boards and moan and rant about how my friends harass me and don't understand me and how they won't leave me alone about the asparagus issue[/].

I don't wear a little pin that superciliously declares to the world my shunning of asparagus. I do not sign up to a little organisation that says that asparagus is evil, that it should be abstained from.

Yet, people do that with alcohol. They think that because they have given up their drink choice everyone should recognise that struggle they've made and support them and not saying anything at all that offends their delicate world view. How self-righteous, how self-centred. At the end of the day, no-one really cares that you don't drink alcohol, it's that you make such a big deal out of it that is annoying. And it's unreasonable to expect people not to try and get you to drink. I wouldn't have many friends if I got personally offended at every asparagus related ribbing I got for not eating, at every attempt to put it on my plate.

Now, at this stage, you people are probably scoffing, you say, well alcohol is soo different to asparagus, alcohol destroys lives, alcohol is dangerous blah blah BLAH. Well, beyond that there is a deeper question of personal responsibility etc. etc. that I'm not going into, but essentially you probably feel that the analogy isn't justified. Well, asparagus is easy to talk about, I don't like asparagus. But maybe here's a more appropriate analogy, hamburgers. Fatty food is undoubtedly a much bigger killer than alcohol is. Yet, if there were organisations devoted to the abstinence of fatty food that took themselves as seriously and dogmatically as alcohol abstinence organisations do, they would be laughed, openly laughed at in the streets. So why the special treatment for alcohol? it's bull****, I say.

(Oh, and before the predictable come back, WeightWatchers et al. do not count, they exist for the purposes of losing weight, they do not advocate the complete abstinence of bad food, rather their consumption in moderation, moderation being defined purely as that which does not make you fat).

tldr; Stop taking your abstinence so seriously. And get a sense of humour, if the Jesus freaks didn't knock that all out of you.


edit: Also, how arrogant and hubristic these Pioneers are!

Compare the organisation to the dictionary definition of the word:
• a person who is among the first to explore or settle a new country or area.
• a person who is among the first to research and develop a new area of knowledge or activity

I mean, come on..

You seem to be completely disregarding alcoholism in your post. It's as ridiculous as comparing giving up smoking cigarettes to giving up violent computer games. Alcoholic giving up alcohol are proud that they are beating their addiction. That's why they wear the pin, how does it affect you anyway? Are you insecure enough that a pin offends you? Are you also offended by church buildings? People wearing the crucifix? I don't understand why you take such exception to abstainers.

Stones85

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Thing is...why not just go out and have a pint with them? Deep down, they probably just miss their old drinking buddy. A pint isn't going to kill you, no matter what the Pioneers say.

I can see where you're coming from, and maybe some just missed getting locked with me, but here is the problem, they can stop and say enough, I couldn't. Even if I was working the next morning.

I started getting into fist fights and putting myself in dangerous situations while pissed. Was becoming abusive to people I really cared about while drunk. Began to spend all my money on "mad nights out". It was affecting health, bank acount and work and family life.

Why the Pioneers? I don't see them as a terrible judgemental organisation, having met them they are lovely people and only ask people not to drink to excess, and they abstain and make a personal sacrifice so that others with serious problems can heal and become better or in control.

I joined them because I am making a pledge to GOD, not myself. If I only promised myself I know I would break it in 2 seconds flat. But when you pledge to God to me that has some serious added weight, and rightly or wrongly it makes the whole thing easier to do. AND IT IS HARD!

I've no problem with people drinking, why would I? Unless it was seriously affectingtheir health. I still hit the bars and clubs with the lads and the girls, it's great craic apart from the odd arsehole havin a go.

The Pin; its part and parcel of the Pioneers, I have to wear it, it's part of the promise. I don't see an issue with it.

I guess I started the thread because I was shocked at the overwhelmingly nasty reaction from friends, no matter the reasons. Thought I'd throw it on here to see if it was a common response.

Fanny Cradock

Sam Vimes wrote: »

In fairness this is a thread about hostility shown to non-drinkers and that's exactly what he's talking about. You might not agree with his point and might think he's expressing it in the wrong way but it is the topic of the thread. You're telling him that his opinions on non-drinkers aren't welcome on a thread about hostility shown to non-drinkers

I've informed him that his opinion on non-drinkers isn't welcome if it's not in a Christian context. I would be more lenient if I thought his intentions were sincere, but I don't believe such lenience is warranted if I suspect that each post is actually routed in grievous generalisations and sensationalism.

I'm politely asking you to keep out of this particular end of the discussion as it doesn't concern you. OK?

Fanny Cradock

My initial post was harsh, and I apologise for this. I just happened to find the sentiment of your post startlingly unsympathetic and quite repugnant because of this.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Blah Blah Blah. Blaaaah. This is your favourite line. Yet surely, even a Christian could see that I simply responding to the OP? If I am off-topic, then surely the OP is too, if he is on-topic, then I am. It really is that simple.

"Even as a Christian"? It's probably best that you don't expand on this statement. You are off topic because your initial post bore little relevance to Christianity, whereas the OP's initial post was framed in a Christian context and was, therefore, fine. As I've explained, you have rapidly used up the leeway I would have given if you hadn't posted your opening nasty rant> which lead me to suspect you of posting merely to sensationalise, generalise and cause offence. Such intentions break the 7th rule of the charter and means you are skirting close to some intervention on my part. But if you be nice and tone down your language (it remains possible to keep your point the same) we can all move on. OK?

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

My accusation was more based on your implicit threat of banning me, because of having an opinion that was different to the prevailing one.

"I don't care much for your opinions, and as a mod of this forum I don't have to entertain them."

I didn't threaten to ban you - implicitly or otherwise. I could simply have given you an infraction or a warning. I have such terrible powers at my disposal. That you automatically assume I was going to ban you probably says more about the outcome you expected you would receive for your words.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Explain why it is deeply flawed...(or don't, if you don't want the thread to be further 'derailed', but if you do, I will happy to debate it with you, this isn't me backing away out of fear of losing an argument.)

I believe that it has already been explained by others. I would suggest meeting former alcoholics and their loved ones and comparing their experiences (usually quite tragic and full of violence) against those who have asparagus addictions. I'm not particularly interested in offering detailed critiques of your analogies, though.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Your Charter says opinions from non-Christians are welcome?

Indeed they are. And I'm glad you have read it. But perhaps a reread is in order.

lugha

Stones85 wrote: »

I guess I started the thread because I was shocked at the overwhelmingly nasty reaction from friends, no matter the reasons. Thought I'd throw it on here to see if it was a common response.

I wouldn’t think your experience has less to do with the Catholic nature of the Pioneer movement and more to do with the appallingly immature attitude we Irish have to alcohol, (an attitude many of our Celtic tiger cubs will pay for with their organs in future decades). I encounter this all the time. I remember listening to a debate once on the possibility of Ireland at some stage becoming an Islamic state. I was amused (and depressed!) to find that a likely prohibition on alcohol emerged as an issue quite early in the discussion! Being a non-drinker in Ireland is regarded as only slightly less bizarre than having a craving for biting the heads of live chickens! Personally I find it reaffirming to see the occasional Pioneer pin as it reminds me that some people can refrain from alcohol and live happy lives.