Healthcare in the USA

jumpguy

Interesting debate breaking out in the USA over their healthcare at the moment. Obama is trying to bring in universal healthcare so rich or poor will be treated equally. However, this has caused a huge debate because Americans who can afford to shell out for lavish health insurance policies get priority and get treated pretty much immediately. In universal health systems, everyone gets treated, but there's a queue. They're worried that it's evil Obama turning the US communist, which is a no-no in the free land of the US.

Health insurance is vital in the US, in Ireland if you get sudden appendisitis, the first thing they'll do is yank out your appendix, in the US, the first thing they'll do is check you'll have health insurance.

Just wondering what people are thinking of this. I'm shocked tbh, America never seemed so foreign. Especially watching the debates on TV, Christ I just want to beat some of them with a smelly fish. How can anyone with any bit of a soul want to neglect 45 million people so they'd have priority? Full power to Obama, great man.

Want to hear boardsies opinions on this... Not sure if this is the best forum, mods move it to politics or somewhere else if better suited.

AlmightyCushion

If you want I can move it somewhere where there will be a much better chance of mature discussion. No guarantee that will happen here but it does happen from time to time.

phasers

tbh I'm not surprised, America has always struck me as a country where everybody is looking out for number one.

brummytom

It's late so I'm going to copy my facebook status :P :

I don't get why the Americans are freaking out so much about having an NHS.. the bull**** being spread about our country is ridiculous, 'death panels' and highest death rates and all this rubbish. They should just admit their selfish tossers who only care about their own health and can't be arsed with people less well off than them.

Overheal

jumpguy wrote: »

Interesting debate breaking out in the USA over their healthcare at the moment. Obama is trying to bring in universal healthcare so rich or poor will be treated equally. However, this has caused a huge debate because Americans who can afford to shell out for lavish health insurance policies get priority and get treated pretty much immediately. In universal health systems, everyone gets treated, but there's a queue. They're worried that it's evil Obama turning the US communist, which is a no-no in the free land of the US.

Health insurance is vital in the US, in Ireland if you get sudden appendisitis, the first thing they'll do is yank out your appendix, in the US, the first thing they'll do is check you'll have health insurance.

Just wondering what people are thinking of this. I'm shocked tbh, America never seemed so foreign. Especially watching the debates on TV, Christ I just want to beat some of them with a smelly fish. How can anyone with any bit of a soul want to neglect 45 million people so they'd have priority? Full power to Obama, great man.

Want to hear boardsies opinions on this... Not sure if this is the best forum, mods move it to politics or somewhere else if better suited.

Interesting mention here:

Americans who can afford to shell out for lavish health insurance policies get priority and get treated pretty much immediately.

In direct conflict with this in a recent article:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_08/019432.php

The U.K.'s National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) basically figures out who deserves treatment by using a cost-utility analysis based on the "quality adjusted life year."
One year in perfect health gets you one point. Deductions are taken for blindness, for being in a wheelchair and so on.
The more points you have, the more your life is considered worth saving, and the likelier you are to get care.
People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

The 2 quoted examples are both Active (1 being the US and 1 being the UK), and yet both fundamentally flawed Health Care Systems. Just for varying reasons.

jumpguy

Overheal wrote: »

Interesting mention here:



In direct conflict with this in a recent article:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_08/019432.php



The 2 quoted examples are both Active (1 being the US and 1 being the UK), and yet both fundamentally flawed Health Care Systems. Just for varying reasons.

I'm not sure if I understand you're post, what I said was referring to the US healthcare system's speed yet you say it's in direct conflict with a exerpt from an article talking about the UK's health care system. In relation to that article, it's completely retarded, even Stephen Hawking himself came out and denounced it. Everyone who is featured in these Republican ads denouncing the NHS have come out and denounced the republican campaign.

It's sickening, the greed in the world makes me sick sometimes.



Almightycushion, I was hoping for a mature discussion...see how it goes?

AlmightyCushion

jumpguy wrote: »

Almightycushion, I was hoping for a mature discussion...see how it goes?

Sounds good. It's started off well so should stay that way.

Lockstep

The internet seems filled with quotes and equivocations on the matter.


my favourite was when Steven Hawkin was brought into it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/aug/13/stephen-hawking-nhs-twitter-welovethenhs

dlofnep

America is probably the most capitalist, selfish country in the world. They care only about #1. I'm quite happy to pay taxes, or to wait a little for hospital if it means that everyone has a fair shot at healthcare.

Obama is spot on.

Sierra Oscar

Yeah, things are getting heated alright! . . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tssL9BcLJd0

"TWO OF YOU GUYS ATTACKED THAT GUY, WHY DID YOU ATTACK HIM ???

--- HE ATTACKED AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

:rolleyes:

ascanbe

jumpguy wrote: »

Interesting debate breaking out in the USA over their healthcare at the moment. Obama is trying to bring in universal healthcare so rich or poor will be treated equally. However, this has caused a huge debate because Americans who can afford to shell out for lavish health insurance policies get priority and get treated pretty much immediately. In universal health systems, everyone gets treated, but there's a queue. They're worried that it's evil Obama turning the US communist, which is a no-no in the free land of the US.

Health insurance is vital in the US, in Ireland if you get sudden appendisitis, the first thing they'll do is yank out your appendix, in the US, the first thing they'll do is check you'll have health insurance.

Just wondering what people are thinking of this. I'm shocked tbh, America never seemed so foreign. Especially watching the debates on TV, Christ I just want to beat some of them with a smelly fish. How can anyone with any bit of a soul want to neglect 45 million people so they'd have priority? Full power to Obama, great man.

Want to hear boardsies opinions on this... Not sure if this is the best forum, mods move it to politics or somewhere else if better suited.

Obama isn't trying to introduce universal healthcare in the way you have stated.
Those, with the money to do so, will still be able to avail of private healthcare, if they so choose.
He is merely trying to insure that people of modest means aren't screwed by private interests and left up **** creek.
It's a socialist construsct; much like anti - trust laws or bank bail outs are socialism.
You don't see so called 'free market' capitalists over there complaining about these things, as it works out in their favour.
The ironic thing is that certain sections of the media with the interests of these 'free market' capitalists at heart are using red herrings in order to get many of the very people who would benifit from Obama's plan up in arms.
Which i guess is smart; they are scumbags and it suits their agenda.
And perhaps the people who fall for it deserve what they get, if it's de-railed.
Which it may well be.
Kinda sad, i suppose.

rossie1977

its a daft situation, on one hand you have americans saying no to universal healthcare because of the evils of socialism blah blah blah and then praising the government financed military, police force, schools, firefighters etc in the next sentence :rolleyes:

the american government already spends more taxpayer money per capita on healthcare than the governments of the uk, canada, france and germany do, i can see why americans are worried, they see abuse of the systems by illegals, they see underpaid doctors moving away (yeah right come to ireland, the irish consultants are living in poverty :rolleyes:) but why would a universal health care system in the states be like the nhs, why not like italy or frances which are vastly superior the uks

netwhizkid

I open heartedly invite the US Republican and Democratic legislators to Ireland to view our Universal Healthcare and I can guarantee the Republicans will go home happier.

Irish healthcare should be privatised and why should I pay tax for gastric bypass surgery for some fat social welfare scrounger to lose weight when they should be f'd out to work like the rest of society.

MoonDancer

I had both of my kids in America,
The first I had insurance, then I lost it after I left my job because I became a stay at home mother
When I was pregnant with my 2nd one, I had some complications and my Doctor wouldn't even see me because I had no health insurance, so I had to go to the ER & pay over $1000 just to be seen by a doctor!
Health care is very expensive over there if you have no insurance.

dlofnep

netwhizkid wrote: »

Irish healthcare should be privatised and why should I pay tax for gastric bypass surgery for some fat social welfare scrounger to lose weight when they should be f'd out to work like the rest of society.

Disgusting.

Ruu_Old

I had no insurance one year, had to go to the "convenient care" facility (pay $150 right off the bat) who sent me to the ER and get a CT scan. The total bill was around $3,000 but they gave me 20% off because I was earning x amount of dollars. They don't turn people away. I made sure to pick it up the next year!

K-9

Watched a Panorama programme on it a few months ago. Yes it had the scarey music etc. but my God, I'd prefer our system anyday.

No system will be perfect.

K4t

K-9 wrote: »

Watched a Panorama programme on it a few months ago. Yes it had the scarey music etc. but my God, I'd prefer our system anyday.

No system will be perfect.

Unless you're wealthy.

liah

Interesting and relatively related articles; it's about Canadian health care versus American, and to be honest.. ours (Canadian) wins by a wash in all circumstances:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-rachlis3-2009aug03,0,538126.story

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427

The only people who actually think the American system works are Americans.

I hate their selfish attitude, all this "yeah well I don't want my tax dollars to be going to some degenerate who's just going to drink it away" stuff is ridiculous. Yeah, so your tax dollars may contribute to that, but it may also contribute to saving the life of a child like it helped my cerebral palsic cousin, or helping your very grandmother recover from cervical cancer like it did mine.
My family is certainly not a degenerate one. My cousin was born with cerebral palsy and the things the poor lad has had to go through just to lead a somewhat normal life is completely unfathomable. Our family has always had a modest income and we've always worked hard for what we had. I watched my aunt struggle with my cousin so often, every step of the way was so hard, and if we didn't have universal health care, that would've been amplified by a thousand. His physical therapy, his splints, his wheelchair, his operations, his workers.. It's heartbreaking enough to watch as it is, I can't imagine what it would've been like if she'd had to try to support him without aid.
Do you think we're degenerates leeching off your precious dollar? Personally I would feel great knowing that my money could be helping out families like ours.

Also, people who complain about taxes need a reality check. Those taxes, at least in my country, contribute to what is an absolutely amazing quality of life. Studies in Europe show that the countries with some of the highest taxes also have much better quality of life.
Chances are you'd spend whatever money you'd save from the perceived lower taxes on what the government would be spending your tax money on anyway, except when you don't have that money to spend and you're left in the dust, nobody would be there to pick you back up.

Why people toss around this "but it's MINE! MINE MINE MINE!" attitude with money is beyond me. Listen, folks: it's a piece of paper. Life is greater than that. It is NOT a bad thing to know that your money is going to save lives, in one small way or another. Stop being so selfish and open your eyes.

rossie1977

liah wrote: »

I hate their selfish attitude, all this "yeah well I don't want my tax dollars to be going to some degenerate who's just going to drink it away" stuff is ridiculous.
.

personally i love this argument, usually its best to counter with, "don't they have free health care in american prisons??"

"you do realise that if some madman killed your wife and kids, YOUR tax dollars would be paying for his free health care during his stay in prison"

Manic Moran

Health insurance is vital in the US, in Ireland if you get sudden appendisitis, the first thing they'll do is yank out your appendix, in the US, the first thing they'll do is check you'll have health insurance.

That's a slight exaggeration. They'll yank it out first, then figure out how they'll get paid for it. You may be paying half the rest of your life, but you'll be alive if you call 911.

The US system is obscenely complicated, and I don't like it, but I can understand the reluctance to go too far in the socialised direction. Unfortunately, there is almost no way of getting a consensus on 'how far is too far'? Hence Obama's troubles in getting it passed: Even his own party won't support him in sufficient numbers.

Disgusting.

Is he wrong, though? There's a video on Liveleak just popped up of some drunk idiot who deliberately shoots himself in the arm. It's being used as an example of the problem: "Socialised medicine would mean that -my- tax dollars would be used to help fix up people like this total idiot." Maybe a sort of 'idiocy-of-cause' test need to be applied before determining if a person should be eligible for government aid?

NTM

buynow

The funny thing is that the bit of health care in the US that works basically operates as socialism in a way at the moment. When working you pay a really high insurance tax (or your employer does) and then the high bills are between the insurance company and the hospitals, the actual cost makes no difference to the patient once it is over their copay.

In the last year I have through my employer paid something like $4,000 or $5,000 in insurance. I'm not using that money other people are.

I think it shouldn't be tied to employment. If people had to pay insurance from their take home pay (rather than a 'free' work benefit), they wouldn't be so well insured, and would shop around bringing down overall costs.

An Fear Aniar

Check out Remote Area Medical, a charity originally founded to help people in the third world but now working in the US:

ChocolateSauce

Obama is just going to increase the amount of money spent of healthcare. To him, more money = more people insured. IT's not his fault; the population won't even consider something as sensible as state-run health care.

Rented Mule

After waiting four weeks for an x-ray and over a week for a dentist to see me to deal with a much needed root canal, I have left Ireland.

I arrived in Chicago on Friday, interviewed on Monday. I had a second and third interview on Tuesday and was offered the job by noon.

It is a contract to hire position, where the company offered me a (medical)benefits package that would start after two months for myself at $350 per month for myself. When you add in my wife and two children it comes out at $1200 per month.

Super-rich my ass.

We'll do without some little things to make sure that this is taken careof each month.

irish_bob

dlofnep wrote: »

Disgusting.

i agree with privatising the irish health care system , i have health insurance with quinn , its cost 700 quid a year which is less than two euro a day , for a husband and wife with four kids , the cost is around 2500 but you get a generous tax write off , thats less than 50 quid a week , due to our extremley generous unemployments benefits , thier is no reason everyone cant afford to have health insurance , many unemployed people spend close to 50 quid a week on ciggarettes , takeaways and alcohol or the bookies , surely all theese things are less important than making sure one is covered if they should fall victim to ill health , were our health service to be privatised , it would do away with all the politics which surrounds our present system , surplus to requirement beauracrats could be let go where as under the present system they are kept on for the simple reason that getting rid of them would mean the local politican might loose a house full of votes , a private health system would have no choice but to put the patient ( customer ) first where as the present state funded system puts the employees in the system first , the notion of a private health care system has been made a taboo subject thanks to our overwhelmingly left wing media , i believe the majority of people are not idealogues when it comes to healthcare and would be willing and responsible enough to go out and spend 700 a year or 2500 in the case of a family on health insurance if they saw our health service transformed into an efficent non politcal outfit



ps

regarding what obama is trying to do , i dont think its all that radical and i support him , he is simply trying to put a stop to the gauging that american insurance company engage in , theese insurance companies are big contributors to the republican party and the democrats to a lesser extent , he is not trying to put in place a british style NHS which is not the great service its cracked up to be btw

Elessar

I hope the americans realise there are waiting lists for private healthcare aswell. And what happens when anti-socialist, hard working american A can't get insurance because of a "pre-existing condition", what does he do then?

jumpguy

ascanbe wrote: »

Obama isn't trying to introduce universal healthcare in the way you have stated.
Those, with the money to do so, will still be able to avail of private healthcare, if they so choose.
He is merely trying to insure that people of modest means aren't screwed by private interests and left up **** creek.
It's a socialist construsct; much like anti - trust laws or bank bail outs are socialism.
You don't see so called 'free market' capitalists over there complaining about these things, as it works out in their favour.
The ironic thing is that certain sections of the media with the interests of these 'free market' capitalists at heart are using red herrings in order to get many of the very people who would benifit from Obama's plan up in arms.
Which i guess is smart; they are scumbags and it suits their agenda.
And perhaps the people who fall for it deserve what they get, if it's de-railed.
Which it may well be.
Kinda sad, i suppose.

Ahh I see. You think it's just the rich crying over tax money? I've noticed in the USA many poorer people had been complaining about the bill. I was thinking "why the hell are they complaining, surely they'll benefit the most?" I thought it was perhaps a lack of education But you say cleverer people with an agenda leading them on? Maybe so.

Ruu wrote: »

I had no insurance one year, had to go to the "convenient care" facility (pay $150 right off the bat) who sent me to the ER and get a CT scan. The total bill was around $3,000 but they gave me 20% off because I was earning x amount of dollars. They don't turn people away. I made sure to pick it up the next year!

Wow, unbelievable. They don't turn you away, yeah, but paying around 2400 is huge.

K4t wrote: »

Unless you're wealthy.

In the US system anyway (as opposed to the NHS, I hate using the Irish system as a comparison as it's a poor hybrid that doesn't seem to work).

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Check out Remote Area Medical, a charity originally founded to help people in the third world but now working in the US:

I always wondered how the US can supply aid (USAid I believe it's called) to poorer countries yet it has an extremely high poverty rate itself. Surely they'd supply aid to themselves first? Or is this more of the socialism worry? Perhaps the US prefers to give away aid to poorer countries with a few strings attached?


As concerned to the Irish system, some health insurers have private hospitals I believe. Being insured myself, I've found the service pretty speedy. I wonder who those with medical cards, having the use the public system find it?

Biggins

The American business community quietly - CONVENIENTLY! - overlook that their government is willing to pay for the police force, the fire service, the Army, the Navy, even some transport services, water services, etc... Basically other essential services that is keeping them alive and safeguarding their collective asses...

...but god forbid they try and help pay for medical services ...hell no!
There is profit to be made in that so lets slander that attempt and taint it as "socialism".
Again, convenient blindness!

American capitalist hypocrisy clearly at its worst!

Lockstep

I lived in England for 5 years and I loved the NHS, never had any problems with it.


Belgian system was even better, went in to A+E and was seen to in 45minutes.

brummytom

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I lived in England for 5 years and I loved the NHS, never had any problems with it.

Same, have been using the NHS for over 15 years :P .

I've been quite unwell a few times - nothing serious, but painful and very inconvenient. The treatment/service I recieved was always great - no stone was left unturned. Booking an appointment where I live is a problem and you may have to wait 2 weeks, but that's only as there's far too many patients in proportion to doctors. We're private for dentists so can't really comment.

What I must say, though, is talking to family we have in both America and Ireland, I have to thank God I was born here.

PaulieD

This is a huge step for the US, in my opinion Barry O'Bama should implement free health care for children first, get it right, and then implement it for the rest of the population.

Manic Moran

The American business community quietly - CONVENIENTLY! - overlook that their government is willing to pay for the police force, the fire service, the Army, the Navy, even some transport services, water services, etc... Basically other essential services that is keeping them alive and safeguarding their collective asses...

If there's money in it, the business communities are more than willing to provide services for a fee. Have you not noticed the various private armed groups hired to work in Afghanistan and Iraq? Law enforcement is generally prohibited by law, so that's out, but you can get armed guards for at least defensive work.

NTM

Biggins

Manic Moran wrote: »

If there's money in it, the business communities are more than willing to provide services for a fee. Have you not noticed the various private armed groups hired to work in Afghanistan and Iraq? Law enforcement is generally prohibited by law, so that's out, but you can get armed guards for at least defensive work.
NTM

Sadly, no longer true.
The state is now using private armys to control the masses. Blackwater (currently under investigation by some agencies in the states) sent in troops to patrol the communities. Paid by the American government.
For example, during the flooding of New Orleans:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2005/150905nwoshowcase.htm

and...

The men from Blackwater USA arrived in New Orleans right after Katrina hit.

The company known for its private security work guarding senior US diplomats in Iraq beat the federal government and most aid organizations to the scene in another devastated Gulf. About 150 heavily armed Blackwater troops dressed in full battle gear spread out into the chaos of New Orleans. Officially, the company boasted of its forces "join[ing] the hurricane relief effort." But its men on the ground told a different story.

Some patrolled the streets in SUVs with tinted windows and the Blackwater logo splashed on the back; others sped around the French Quarter in an unmarked car with no license plates. They congregated on the corner of St. James and Bourbon in front of a bar called 711, where Blackwater was establishing a makeshift headquarters. From the balcony above the bar, several Blackwater guys cleared out what had apparently been someone's apartment. They threw mattresses, clothes, shoes and other household items from the balcony to the street below. They draped an American flag from the balcony's railing. More than a dozen troops from the 82nd Airborne Division stood in formation on the street watching the action.

Armed men shuffled in and out of the building as a handful told stories of their past experiences in Iraq. "I worked the security detail of both Bremer and Negroponte," said one of the Blackwater guys, referring to the former head of the US occupation, L. Paul Bremer, and former US Ambassador to Iraq John Negroponte. Another complained, while talking on his cell phone, that he was getting only $350 a day plus his per diem. "When they told me New Orleans, I said, 'What country is that in?'" he said. He wore his company ID around his neck in a case with the phrase Operation Iraqi Freedom printed on it.

In an hour long conversation I had with four Blackwater men, they characterized their work in New Orleans as "securing neighbourhoods" and "confronting criminals." They all carried automatic assault weapons and had guns strapped to their legs. Their flak jackets were covered with pouches for extra ammunition.

When asked what authority they were operating under, one guy said, "We're on contract with the Department of Homeland Security." Then, pointing to one of his comrades, he said, "He was even deputized by the governor of the state of Louisiana. We can make arrests and use lethal force if we deem it necessary." The man then held up the gold Louisiana law enforcement badge he wore around his neck. Blackwater spokesperson Anne Duke also said the company has a letter from Louisiana officials authorizing its forces to carry loaded weapons.

More here: http://www.alternet.org/katrina/25858/

Private security firms are stepping into the vacuum created by the failure of the government to protect life and property in New Orleans.

The Steele Foundation, headquartered in San Francisco, was called in by several major corporate clients to the inundated city where local police are scarce and food, water or fuel has yet to arrive from the federal government.
"At this point, all of our efforts are focused on providing physical security for people who are trapped as well as providing humanitarian relief," said Kenn Kurtz, chief executive officer of the Steele Foundation. The company is looking after clients with hotels and holed up employees and their families, some with urgent medical needs.
"Right now these people are alone...there is no military presence in downtown New Orleans," he said.
The Steele Foundation, which at one time protected Haiti's president Jean Bertrand Aristide and operates in Iraq, specializes in business risk consulting, protective security work and training.
The company has set up a mobile command post in downtown New Orleans and its clearly-identified security teams are armed but mostly with non-lethal ammunition, Kurtz said. Some 16,000 military rations, bottled water as well as fuel have been brought in but looters have attacked the company's vehicles.
"We can't get fuel into many places because it's too dangerous to travel," Kurtz.
Blackwater USA is sending about 50 employees to the Gulf region along with a transport helicopter and two cargo planes, according to spokeswoman Anne Duke. The security company has offered to help the Coast Guard with pro bono rescue work and is working with private-sector firms to help protect infrastructure and cultural buildings in the city, she said.
"I definitely don't think Blackwater would have been contacted if it wasn't a serious situation," said Duke. She declined to detail who the company is working for in the area.
Blackwater, which draws on former military and law enforcement personnel, has taken on some very high-profile tasks in Iraq.

Source: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/09/blackwater_in_n.html

nayorleck114

Saw this post today online "Lot of debate going on about US healtcare, If the US system is so great why is child mortality is the states so high comparted to Europe (US 6.3%, comparted to UK4.8%) I mean CUBA! of all places has a better child mortality rate than the united states."

Biggins

The film "Sicko" is an eye opener.
Not saying all in it is true but its a good introduction into the hypocracy of the American system and the way its corrupt for the sake of profit.

Manic Moran

Sadly, no longer true.

Forgot about the deputisation quirk in the law.

True enough, anyone can be deputised.

NTM

Sulmac

The Irish system is far from perfect, but definitely better than the US system by a long-shot.

For those interested in proposed healthcare reforms here, check out this site from Fine Gael - whether you like them or not it's a brilliant policy and very interesting to read. Basically it's along the lines of the Dutch system, everyone has private insurance (children, elderly, unemployed, low incomes, etc. get a voucher to pay for it) using community rating that pays for a lot more services including GP, dentist, optician, etc.

I'd rather have a system such as this because it encourages self-sufficiency (people realise they're paying directly for their care so should act more responsibly ) and the government (who can't be trusted to run anything) doesn't provide healthcare directly but still guarantees it to everyone.

This kind of system would be perfect for the US too, IMO.

davyjose

jumpguy wrote: »

in the US, the first thing they'll do is check you'll have health insurance.

This is actually a complete fallacy, and I'd love to know on what your research on this statement is founded?

davyjose

Biggins wrote: »

Not saying all in it is true

Because it's not :rolleyes:

davyjose

I don't mean to lambast individual posts here, but the simple fact is: the United Sates of America have the best doctors, and the best medical infrastructure of any nation on the planet -- by ... a ... mile!!!

Maybe we already know this, but the statement that you need money, or solid insurance to benefit from this is bollicks. I personally, first hand, know someone who had NO insurance, and little money, for a very debilitating illness. They were treated in the same hospital (IU) that Lance Armstrong was treated for Cancer, only 1 ward away. There was red tape -- a lot of red tape -- but ultimately they were treated as any other citizen of the United States would be. This whole "they'll kick you to the kerb if you don't have insurance", is lies.

And guess what? They're still alive.

Biggins

davyjose wrote: »

I don't mean to lambast individual posts here, but the simple fact is: the United Sates of America have the best doctors, and the best medical infrastructure of any nation on the planet -- by ... a ... mile!!!

Maybe we already know this, but the statement that you need money, or solid insurance to benefit from this is bollicks. I personally, first hand, know someone who had NO insurance, and little money, for a very debilitating illness. They were treated in the same hospital (IU) that Lance Armstrong was treated for Cancer, only 1 ward away. There was red tape -- a lot of red tape -- but ultimately they were treated as any other citizen of the United States would be. This whole "they'll kick you to the kerb if you don't have insurance", is lies.

And guess what? They're still alive.

Have you tried/studied the French medical system? Worldwide recognised as THEE BEST in the world!

Quote from "Sicko":

In France, Moore visits a hospital and interviews the head of obstetrics and gynaecology and a group of American expatriates. Moore rides with the "SOS Médecins", a 24-hour French medical service that provides house calls by physicians. Moore discovers that the French government provides social services, such as health care, public education (including universities), vacation and day care for $1 an hour and neonatal support that includes cooking, cleaning, and laundry services for new mothers.

Straight from the Americans mouths whom all have experienced BOTH medical systems. They state that France wins - no competition - not just in best doctors and services but also in less paper chasing, form filling, and much less bureaucracy!

---

Take a look at "Sicko" for video proof of this (kickin' to kerb) as captured on camera by street cameras! And as for "They're still alive." - Aaa no, some died as a direct cause of their treatment (or lack of it).

ejmaztec

Seem to be a lot of dirty tricks involved in the US Healthcare "campaign", including using mouthy arseholes like Tory Daniel Hannan from the UK, doing the rounds on US TV to tell everyone how bad the NHS is, and advising no-one to use it as a model for healthcare.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6797165.ece

Cameron disowns views of MEP Daniel Hannan in fresh NHS row

The Conservative leadership scrambled last night to pledge support for the NHS as it faced fresh embarrassment over links with US Republicans who have savaged the health service in recent days.

David Cameron interrupted his Brittany holiday to insist that his party “stands foursquare behind the NHS” and dismiss the views of the Tory MEP Daniel Hannan, who warned Americans against adopting a system he compared to that of communist North Korea, as those of a political “eccentric”.

Last night, however, it emerged that several senior Shadow Cabinet members have ties with some of the Republican congressmen who have been prominent in using Britain’s experience of “socialised medicine” as a weapon to attack President Obama’s health reforms.

George Osborne, the Shadow Chancellor, as well as William Hague, Chris Grayling, Michael Gove and Liam Fox, are listed as advisory council members of Atlantic Bridge, an organisation dedicated to finding solutions for the common challenges facing Britain and America through a “well-positioned network of like-minded people”.

Other members of the council include the Republican senators Jon Kyl, Jim DeMint, Lindsey Graham and Mel Martinez, the congressmen John Campbell and Adam Putman, and as a solitary independent — Senator Joe Lieberman. Mr Campbell used his blog this week to describe a recent meeting with Mr Hannan in the studios of the Fox News channel.

Mr DeMint was reported this week as saying that if the Republicans stop Mr Obama’s bitterly contested plans to extend health care coverage “it will be his Waterloo — it will break him”.

The founder of Atlantic Bridge, and its UK chairman, is Dr Fox, the Shadow Defence Secretary. A spokeswoman said last night that the network was dedicated principally to foreign and security policy issues. As Shadow Health Secretary in 2003 Dr Fox did, however, host an Atlantic Bridge conference on the NHS.

Asked if he, or other Conservative frontbenchers, would remain on the council, the spokeswoman said that it was “tenuous and desperate” to suggest that the party sympathised with Republican critics of the health service.

Under Mr Cameron, Tories have succeeded in putting some distance between themselves and their sister party, the Republicans, while often deliberately echoing Mr Obama’s own message of youth and change.

The Conservative leader has also promised to increase spending on the NHS. To the frustration of some right-wing think-tanks, Andrew Lansley, the Shadow Health Secretary, has reined back more radical reform proposals, such as charging or partprivatisation, which Labour exploited in past elections. But Mr Hannan, a maverick figure who has long argued for the NHS to be dismantled, said this week that he would not wish Britain’s healthcare on anyone.

Last night Roger Helmer, another Conservative MEP, said that his colleague should be congratulated for reopening the health debate in the party. “If the Americans came to me and said, ‘Would you recommend us taking up a system just like the British NHS?’, I think I would have to say ‘No’,” he told the BBC.

The ferocity of Republican opposition in recent weeks has rocked the Obama administration. Back in Britain, however, thousands of people, including Gordon Brown and Mr Cameron, have signed up to an online Twitter campaign in defence of the NHS.

Manic Moran

Have you tried/studied the French medical system? Worldwide recognised as THEE BEST in the world!

I'm trying to think of a French hospital as famous as Johns Hopkins, UCLA Medical, or Bethedsda.

I have no reason to believe that the US doctors or facilities are second to any other country in the world in terms of capability, though I do wish there was less paperwork associated with getting to them.

NTM

tolosenc

An interesting argument I heard about the 45 million uninsured was "How many of them don't want insurance?"

9,000,000 millionaires in the US. I doubt they'd have insurance. It had other demographics as well. Very interesting.

One thing we have to do over here is stop pontificating. The majority of US citizens are oposed to Obamacare. It is fundamentally wrong for Obama to impose his will, however well meaning it may be, on the people of a nation if it is not what they want.

Also, regards the "if you don't want it, you can keep private insurance". What utter tripe. You'll be paying for both! The legislation also basically forces private insurers to be the same as the state.

nayorleck114

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm trying to think of a French hospital as famous as Johns Hopkins, UCLA Medical, or Bethedsda.

I have no reason to believe that the US doctors or facilities are second to any other country in the world in terms of capability, though I do wish there was less paperwork associated with getting to them.

NTM

Nobody will say John Hopkins, UCLA Medical, or Bethedsda are not great hospitals, sure they are. the problem is they only treat the rich who have money, they may do pro bono for some non insured, but to the millions of non insured americans there is no way they will ever see the inside of John Hopkins, UCLA Medical, or Bethedsda.

Would you like a health care system that only allowed the Rich and insured get care? what about the millions of children of non insured parents.

Try getting cancer treatment for a child in America without insurance. Its no where near as good as the care they would get if they were rich.

nayorleck114

davyjose wrote: »

I don't mean to lambast individual posts here, but the simple fact is: the United Sates of America have the best doctors, and the best medical infrastructure of any nation on the planet -- by ... a ... mile!!!

Maybe we already know this, but the statement that you need money, or solid insurance to benefit from this is bollicks. I personally, first hand, know someone who had NO insurance, and little money, for a very debilitating illness. They were treated in the same hospital (IU) that Lance Armstrong was treated for Cancer, only 1 ward away. There was red tape -- a lot of red tape -- but ultimately they were treated as any other citizen of the United States would be. This whole "they'll kick you to the kerb if you don't have insurance", is lies.

And guess what? They're still alive.

Yes, there are some pro bono cases in the states when non insured people get great care. Also the US has the best hospitals and doctors.

But the 1 example you say about is the 5% of these non insured who get care. 95% of the rest of them don't and thats a fact. They will kick you to curb if you were a 60 year old guys with prostate cancer and no insurance. They don't have to treat you, there is not open route to get treatment, you may be treated, but its not a given.

A woman in Ireland with a lump on her breast will be seem within days of diagnosis, in the states if she has no insurance she has to look for a hospital that may take her (charity case) but she has no universal right to care. Am I right?

This Irish system may not be the best, but the principal is there.

jumpguy

obl wrote: »

An interesting argument I heard about the 45 million uninsured was "How many of them don't want insurance?"

9,000,000 millionaires in the US. I doubt they'd have insurance. It had other demographics as well. Very interesting.

One thing we have to do over here is stop pontificating. The majority of US citizens are oposed to Obamacare. It is fundamentally wrong for Obama to impose his will, however well meaning it may be, on the people of a nation if it is not what they want.

Also, regards the "if you don't want it, you can keep private insurance". What utter tripe. You'll be paying for both! The legislation also basically forces private insurers to be the same as the state.

Isn't all law-making someone trying to "impose" their law on others? That is law after all. It is imposed, whether you like it or not. As for the majority case, we don't know. We'll find out when the bill hits Congress. The media seems to focus more on the nutcases but it's definetly going to be tighter than other controversail bills Obama has proposed (it'll be tight whether it passes or not).

davyjose wrote: »

This is actually a complete fallacy, and I'd love to know on what your research on this statement is founded?

I could ask the exact same question with this statement...

davyjose wrote: »

I don't mean to lambast individual posts here, but the simple fact is: the United Sates of America have the best doctors, and the best medical infrastructure of any nation on the planet -- by ... a ... mile!!!

Hagar

Biggins wrote: »

Have you tried/studied the French medical system? Worldwide recognised as THEE BEST in the world!

Straight from the Americans mouths whom all have experienced BOTH medical systems. They state that France wins - no competition - not just in best doctors and services but also in less paper chasing, form filling, and much less bureaucracy!

I have never seen anything like the French system and I had had top plan VHI in Ireland.

tolosenc

jumpguy wrote: »

Isn't all law-making someone trying to "impose" their law on others? That is law after all. It is imposed, whether you like it or not. As for the majority case, we don't know. We'll find out when the bill hits Congress. The media seems to focus more on the nutcases but it's definetly going to be tighter than other controversail bills Obama has proposed (it'll be tight whether it passes or not).

Various polls have support between 15% and 40%. For most things that go on, we hear the vocal opposition, but they are usually not this great in number. It's a dumb move politically, regardless, particularly at a time when his ratings are falling through the floor.

kowloon

netwhizkid wrote: »

Irish healthcare should be privatised and why should I pay tax for gastric bypass surgery for some fat social welfare scrounger to lose weight when they should be f'd out to work like the rest of society.

Your lack of empathy disturbs me. Did you horde all the sweets as a child?