Do you believe the universe came from nothing

karlog

Ok i'm not an atheist i just wanted to get an atheists view on this.

I always wondered if atheists dont believe in god then where do they believe the universe came from? Do atheists believe it came from nowhere? It couldn't have created itself.

For me i dont have enough faith to believe nothing created something.

15Pete

S0crates is not sure about this. Obviously nothing can come from nothing, it all comes down to how far along the chain you go, until you find something that came from "nothing". The scientists at CERN are always getting closer, whilst the religious answer as to where god came from usually is replied to by claiming god has always been or some other rubbish. Of course they fail to see that if they believe this, then they must understand that atheists can just say earth has always been.


S0crates does however prefer it to some old wives tale about an invisible man in the sky who sees and knows everything and made the world in 6 days and then somehow moulded humans to live on it.


OP, according to your beliefs, what did god actually create the earth from?

karlog

What i believe in is the big bang theory and that it didn't come from nothing (i.e god). The rest is science and evolution.

The Mad Hatter

"come from"? What does that mean, exactly?

When you start to talk about what happened "before" the Big Bang, you are applying in-universe physics (ie., time) to a period outside the universe.

Sam Vimes

The options are not God or nothing. You'll find very very few atheists who will give any answer to the question of how the universe came into being that amounts to much more than "I don't know". I'm sure some will mention hypotheses but that's all they are

The difference between an atheist and a theist is that we don't follow "I don't know" with "so it must be god"

Doctor DooM

karlog wrote: »

Ok i'm not an atheist i just wanted to get an atheists view on this.

I always wondered if atheists dont believe in god then where do they believe the universe came from? Do atheists believe it came from nowhere? It couldn't have created itself.

For me i dont have enough faith to believe nothing created something.

"I don't know" does me fine.

There's a huge number of options covered with "I don't know" which aren't a god, btw.

death1234567

Non atheists always trot out this question in a vain attempt to justify their own belief in a God.

I always wondered if atheists dont believe in god then where do they believe the universe came from? Do atheists believe it came from nowhere? It couldn't have created itself. For me i dont have enough faith to believe nothing created something.

If God created the universe where did God come from? Who created him, a super god? The question of who or what created the universe isn't answered by using God as that doesn't answer anything. Back in the days it was who created man, god did it (oh wait that's wrong evolution did), then who created the planets, god did it (oh wait that's wrong too) now who created the big bang...see a pattern. Instead of trying to answer the question through logic and science people choose the easy (incorrect) answer which fits into their own flawed logic and is the "lazy" option.

mickoneill30

karlog wrote: »

Do atheists believe it came from nowhere?

I believe I don't have enough info to know where the universe came from. Just because you don't have enough info doesn't mean you have to insert beliefs to fill in the gaps.

CerebralCortex

karlog wrote: »

...I always wondered if atheists dont believe in god then where do they believe the universe came from?

Don't know and never claimed to.

karlog wrote: »

Do atheists believe it came from nowhere?

Nope.

karlog wrote: »

It couldn't have created itself.

But god can?

karlog wrote: »

For me i dont have enough faith to believe nothing created something.

Here folks we have fine example of passive aggressiveness. You do have faith that god came from nothing?

pH

karlog wrote: »

For me i dont have enough faith to believe nothing created something.

It seems reasonable to assume (and the evidence reflects this) that the sum of all the energy and mass in the universe is exactly nothing, therefore making the the statement "nothing created nothing". Do you have any evidence to suggest that the total energy/mass of the universe is non-zero?

the_god_swan

death1234567 wrote: »

If God created the universe where did God come from? Who created him, a super god?

I don't like the sound of this super god you speak of... :pac:

Zombrex

karlog wrote: »

Ok i'm not an atheist i just wanted to get an atheists view on this.

I always wondered if atheists dont believe in god then where do they believe the universe came from? Do atheists believe it came from nowhere? It couldn't have created itself.

For me i dont have enough faith to believe nothing created something.

I believe it was the Universe-Creating-Space-Bunny.

I think the idea that your god created the universe is utterly ridiculous. The Space Bunny on the other hand is defined as being universe creating, so obviously he is the best explanation for something that could create a universe.

Little Mickey

As a person who desperately tries to believe in God, for one reason because of the christian religon I grew up in, my own opinion often seems to fall that yes it did come from a super power or God but we just don't have a clue about him, no notion whatsoever and never will.
The stories about him having a son on earth I find difficult to believe.

But then, if he did create the universe and earth, why did he put us here or why did he do it at all? To test our faith in him or how successful we'll be in finding out about in him having solid evidence to prove it?

I'm completely torn on this subject.

Who believes in the end of the world, or the end of the human race?

Sam Vimes

Little Mickey wrote: »

But then, if he did create the universe and earth, why did he put us here or why did he do it at all? To test our faith in him or how successful we'll be in finding out about in him having solid evidence to prove it?

Why does there have to be a reason? You don't ask the deeper purpose behind a snow storm or a rock so why does there have to be a reason behind us?

And I really don't see the value of faith tbh. In anything other than religion faith is called credulity and gullibility and giving people eternal life in return for believing something for which there is little or no evidence is rewarding credulity and punishing rational inquiry.

Gregor Samsa

pH wrote: »

It seems reasonable to assume (and the evidence reflects this) that the sum of all the energy and mass in the universe is exactly nothing, therefore making the the statement "nothing created nothing". Do you have any evidence to suggest that the total energy/mass of the universe is non-zero?

Slightly OT, but the currently observable evidence actually suggests that there's far less matter and energy in the universe than there should be. In fact, the observable, detectable energy and mass of the universe only accounts for about 4% of what there should be in a universe that we see structured and behaving as our one does. This is known as the "missing mass".

Dark matter and dark energy are only a hypothetical candidates that account for some of this "missing mass" (there are other theories that could also account for it without resorting to postulating as yet undetectable matter and energy) - but as it hasn't been observed, it can't count as evidence. So as observed so far, the total accountable energy/mass of the universe is definitely non-zero.

So, based on how it is thought the universe works, the total sum of all the energy should be zero, but the current observations don't confirm that.


And to answer the OP's question, I don't know where the universe came from but that doesn't mean that God did it. In fact, I'm not even sure asking "where did the universe come from" is the right question, given the notion that time itself only came into existance at the big bang, so there was no "before".

As other people have pointed out, if you believe that God created the universe, then you're merely pushing back the origin of everything by one step, because you then have to answer the question of where did God come from. The difference is that the universe is a definable, observable and testable entity, whereas God isn't (there isn't even agreement on what defines "god").

ShooterSF

Little Mickey wrote: »

As a person who desperately tries to believe in God, for one reason because of the christian religon I grew up in, my own opinion often seems to fall that yes it did come from a super power or God but we just don't have a clue about him, no notion whatsoever and never will.
The stories about him having a son on earth I find difficult to believe.

But then, if he did create the universe and earth, why did he put us here or why did he do it at all? To test our faith in him or how successful we'll be in finding out about in him having solid evidence to prove it?

I'm completely torn on this subject.

Who believes in the end of the world, or the end of the human race?

Just a quick point on the bit in bold but taking a question and looking for a specific answer is a very bad idea. It will mean you only see the evidence that suggests your answer or can be twisted to suggest your answer. It's one of the single worst things you can do when looking for the truth.

Zombrex

Little Mickey wrote: »

As a person who desperately tries to believe in God, for one reason because of the christian religon I grew up in, my own opinion often seems to fall that yes it did come from a super power or God but we just don't have a clue about him, no notion whatsoever and never will.
The stories about him having a son on earth I find difficult to believe.

But then, if he did create the universe and earth, why did he put us here or why did he do it at all? To test our faith in him or how successful we'll be in finding out about in him having solid evidence to prove it?

THis is one of the things I have great trouble with in terms of the argument that it makes sense that a god made the universe.

People say it makes sense that someone created the universe, and then say that the real question is why did he do that

But if we don't know why or how he did it why does it make sense to supposed to did it at all?

Dave!

Little Mickey wrote: »

Who believes in the end of the world, or the end of the human race?

I do

By human actions, or global warming, or the sun expanding and absorbing us, or a big meteor, or.........etc.

Certainly nothing to do with god or the devil or anything

As for where the universe came from, I don't have a clue. Maybe we'll find out in the future, maybe not, let's wait and see

Sam Vimes

Wicknight wrote: »

But if we don't know why or how he did it why does it make sense to supposed to did it at all?

good point. The reason theists can't find answers to the big questions such as why are we here and why is there evil in the world is that they're asking the wrong questions, eg they start with the assumption that all good comes from God and then call evil a mystery. It's only a mystery if you accept the first assumption, without it you have a theory that explains both good and evil: sh!t happens

ShooterSF

Sam Vimes wrote: »

good point. The reason theists can't find answers to the big questions such as why are we here and why is there evil in the world is that they're asking the wrong questions, eg they start with the assumption that all good comes from God and then call evil a mystery. It's only a mystery if you accept the first assumption, without it you have a theory that explains both good and evil: sh!t happens

I'd nearly go to mass if they'd add that in

Priest (In the usual over pronounce every second word approach) "For all That causes GOOD and EVIL",
Congregation "Shit Happens"
Priest "Amen"

Flamed Diving

karlog wrote: »

Ok i'm not an atheist i just wanted to get an atheists view on this.

I always wondered if atheists dont believe in god then where do they believe the universe came from? Do atheists believe it came from nowhere? It couldn't have created itself.

For me i dont have enough faith to believe nothing created something.

I don't know.

pH

phutyle wrote: »

So, based on how it is thought the universe works, the total sum of all the energy should be zero, but the current observations don't confirm that.

With respect, my post wasn't that clear, what I was trying to get at was that current models of the universe support a zero-energy solution (energy existing in both the positive and negative), so there is evidence that it's possible that the universe is literally 'nothing', observational evidence attempting to sum the 2 side might not be there yet, but the burden should be on those who want to claim that 'something' came from nothing to measure the 'something' and show that it's not 'nothing'!

As an aside, anyone wanting to see a creationist attempting theoretical physics and maths have a look at their best rebuttal to a zero-energy universe.

http://creationwiki.org/The_universe%27s_energy_can%27t_come_from_nothing

edanto

Little Mickey wrote: »

Who believes in the end of the world, or the end of the human race?

To be brutally honest, mostly the type of people that are happy to go to a building and give their money to someone in a costume that will reassure them.

People have been predicting that Apocalypse is around the corner since 'Herod is a d1ck' t-shirts were popular.

Dades

karlog wrote: »

For me i dont have enough faith to believe nothing created something.

Something other than, God, apparently.

equivariant

ShooterSF wrote: »

Just a quick point on the bit in bold but taking a question and looking for a specific answer is a very bad idea. It will mean you only see the evidence that suggests your answer or can be twisted to suggest your answer. It's one of the single worst things you can do when looking for the truth.

This is a commonly suggested fallacy about science (even though you don't mention science explicitly, it is surely implicit in your refernce to 'looking for truth'). It suggests that scientists never operate under any preconceived notions or beliefs about what the results of an experiment will be. Any working scientist - atheist or not - will confirm that this is not true. Scientists do not just randomly conduct experiments hoping to find out facts about the universe. First they form a hypothesis, which often takes the form of a specific answer to a question and then test the hypothesis against experiment. Indeed most scientists will often hope for a specific answer from a particular experiment. However, it is only the bad scientists who will allow their own personal beliefs and expectations to influence their analyses and interpretation of experimental results.

Mark Hamill

karlog wrote: »

I always wondered if atheists dont believe in god then where do they believe the universe came from? Do atheists believe it came from nowhere?

I'm guessing this is coming from the creationism thread on the other forum where recently a christian is repeatedly saying that atheists have to believe that the universe has to have come from nothing because this is what the big bang model, despite several atheists repeatedly telling him that no atheists actually claim this and the big bang model says nothing of the sort. I am going to say here what I said there: It probably came from some hot primordial condition that cannot really be explained in terms of anything inside this universe.

karlog wrote: »

It couldn't have created itself.

Em, why?

karlog wrote: »

For me i dont have enough faith to believe nothing created something.

Luckily for you thats not really a position thats strongly held by anyone.

marco_polo

the_god_swan wrote: »

I don't like the sound of this super god you speak of... :pac:

Well the Super devil does need a nemesis.

toiletduck

I don't know.

Is there a better answer?

Little Mickey

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Why does there have to be a reason? You don't ask the deeper purpose behind a snow storm or a rock so why does there have to be a reason behind us?

And I really don't see the value of faith tbh. In anything other than religion faith is called credulity and gullibility and giving people eternal life in return for believing something for which there is little or no evidence is rewarding credulity and punishing rational inquiry.

There has to be a reason, no matter how big or how small.
If not then it can only be an accident, the accident happened because a mistake was made but then the mistake was made because of some reason.

Reason
-Why did you get up this morning?
-Why did you kick a pebble when you were walking along the street?

Mistake (by a reason)
-Why did someone crash car? (by accident but the reason was because the tyres wouldn't grip at the speed they were doing, etc)
-Why did the house catch fire? (by accident but the reason was a match burnt the seat, etc)

So it had to begin somehow, a superpower or some God.
Then again a God is a term often used blindly, the God doesn't have to be like us.
So is any religon just a cover for whoever / whatever this is? Is it necessary then?
This gets very very complicated and I think i'm actually ranting a bit now, sorry.

Sam Vimes

Little Mickey wrote: »

There has to be a reason, no matter how big or how small.
If not then it can only be an accident, the accident happened because a mistake was made but then the mistake was made because of some reason.

Reason
-Why did you get up this morning?
-Why did you kick a pebble when you were walking along the street?

Mistake (by a reason)
-Why did someone crash car? (by accident but the reason was because the tyres wouldn't grip at the speed they were doing, etc)
-Why did the house catch fire? (by accident but the reason was a match burnt the seat, etc)

The word 'reason' implies some kind of thought process and conscious action, deliberate or accidental. I crashed the car because I turned the wrong way or the house burned down because I lit a match and dropped it. A better word to use would be 'cause', as in a series of snow flakes caused an avalanche but at no point did any snow flakes make a conscious decision to do anything. They were just atoms following certain laws

Little Mickey wrote: »

So it had to begin somehow, a superpower or some God.
Then again a God is a term often used blindly, the God doesn't have to be like us.
So is any religon just a cover for whoever / whatever this is? Is it necessary then?
This gets very very complicated and I think i'm actually ranting a bit now, sorry.

Why does it have to be a God? Lightning is caused by friction between atoms in the atmosphere generating electrical charge. Lightning doesn't have a reason, a purpose or goal of some kind, it's just something that happens because it was caused. Why can't the creation of matter have been another natural process that was caused by an unthinking "natural"* force

*I put the word natural in quotes because the natural laws that would apply in that situation would be different

Little Mickey

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The word 'reason' implies some kind of thought process and conscious action, deliberate or accidental. I crashed the car because I turned the wrong way or the house burned down because I lit a match and dropped it. A better word to use would be 'cause', as in a series of snow flakes caused an avalanche but at no point did any snow flakes make a conscious decision to do anything. They were just atoms following certain laws

Well said, but the OPs question used the word "nothing" and I think that there must have been something, whether conscious or not.
Only we don't know if it was it something conscious and therefore it seems we may use religon to personify this creator so we can worship it.
I'm going off the track a bit but the OPs question did use the word "nothing".

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Why does it have to be a God? Lightning is caused by friction between atoms in the atmosphere generating electrical charge. Lightning doesn't have a reason, a purpose or goal of some kind, it's just something that happens because it was caused. Why can't the creation of matter have been another natural process that was caused by an unthinking "natural"* force

*I put the word natural in quotes because the natural laws that would apply in that situation would be different

As I said, the word "God" is being used blindly, that name applies to an object or person. I also used the word "superpower" to attempt to clearly differentiate between the two.

Like I said it's very complicated and will never be understood I think.