What's with the anti-Republican attitudes?

Reillyman

Thought my 100th post should be a big one!:D

There's a reoccurring theme of threads(both on and off-topic), that deal with "the North", "SF/IRA" "Provo's" etc etc.

Most of theses threads take place in after-hours so I thought this would be the place to ask this.

Now first off, I would not consider myself a Republican, but I would have certain sympathies with those in the north that want to be part of Ireland.

Anyway, what I have noticed on Boards over the last year or so is this huge wave of fierce anti-Republicanism. It seems to me that to be anti-Republican is currently the "cool" thing to do, by showing you can think for yourself, are anti-conformist etc etc.

The anti-republican posts are not confined to the obviously understandable(and right imo) negative views of the IRA and SF, but I have seen posts which more or less denounce any achivements we have made breaking free from britain. For example, many people have expressed the view that Michael Collins, Padraig Pearse etc etc were "terrorists"...I mean, come on lads. Another popular thing is that "we'd be better off if we had stayed with Britain."

What I think is that alot of people posting these comments don't actually believe these things themselves, but rather are trying to show how "free-thinking" and "intelligent" they are...

Anyway, there's my query, tear me to shreads!:P

Rabies

Because some people can't let go of the past

phasers

to most people, republican = terrorist

ihadu

Reillyman wrote: »

Thought my 100th post should be a big one!:D

There's a reoccurring theme of threads(both on and off-topic), that deal with "the North", "SF/IRA" "Provo's" etc etc.

Most of theses threads take place in after-hours so I thought this would be the place to ask this.

Now first off, I would not consider myself a Republican, but I would have certain sympathies with those in the north that want to be part of Ireland.

Anyway, what I have noticed on Boards over the last year or so is this huge wave of fierce anti-Republicanism. It seems to me that to be anti-Republican is currently the "cool" thing to do, by showing you can think for yourself, are anti-conformist etc etc.

The anti-republican posts are not confined to the obviously understandable(and right imo) negative views of the IRA and SF, but I have seen posts which more or less denounce any achivements we have made breaking free from britain. For example, many people have expressed the view that Michael Collins, Padraig Pearse etc etc were "terrorists"...I mean, come on lads. Another popular thing is that "we'd be better off if we had stayed with Britain."

What I think is that alot of people posting these comments don't actually believe these things themselves, but rather are trying to show how "free-thinking" and "intelligent" they are...

Anyway, there's my query, tear me to shreads!:P

pick up a james joyce book and read it. you'll soon realise the difference between apathy and futility of caring.

Carsinian Thau

A lot of people tend to equate republican with stupidity.

And stupidity annoys people.

My name is URL

Because some people are democratic, and don't want to see a united Ireland that was only united by force, via killing innocents

Mossy Monk

phasers wrote: »

to most people, republican = terrorist

Most people are fools in that case.

wudangclan

ihadu wrote: »

pick up a james joyce book and read it. you'll soon realise the difference between apathy and futility of caring.

i'm too apathetic to read joyce

Shacklebolt

Because Irish people seem to have a bizarre reluctance to take pride in the people who fought to give them the freedoms and the democracy that they enjoy today. Americans don't regard George Washington as a terrorist, so why do we say such things about our nations heroes?

Svalbard

I doubt most people who disagree with republican dogma are doing it 'to be cool'. They, like me, have a problem with the ardent republican attitude which glorifies barbarism and relies on fuzzy facts and half-truths.
In fact its about time that people question what has been pretty much unquestionable in most of Irish society. Perhaps Collins, Pearse and co are not the noble heroes we are told they are. Perhaps we need to judge them by modern standards and not through the sepia-tinted lens with which we normally view republican history.

Does anyone else find their national pride tainted somewhat by the knowledge that our independence was gained by terrorism?

Eoin

You can be anti-SF and anti-IRA without being anti-Republican.

wudangclan

Svalbard wrote: »

Does anyone else find their national pride tainted somewhat by the knowledge that our independence was gained by terrorism?

the brits at that time got what they deserved imo.i would prefer the gandhi route personally but wouldn't condemn the choices of our forefathers.

drunkmonkey

Ferris made an almighty cock up this week, probably cost him his job and a a good bit of support for Sinn Fein, and to think I was going to give his daughter one...:pac:

Riddle101

I think the years of fighting in the North as well as the mentality that England and Ireland are friends now is what's causing a lot of the so called Anti-Republicanism. We don't live in the 1970's anymore, Ireland's relationship with Britain has gotten stronger over the years and the idea of this whole Irish Vs British thing is outdated. If people can forgive Germany for WWI and WWII then people in Ireland can forgive Britain. By the way I not saying this as an anti-republican either because I myself have symphaties too, but the fact is. It's been a long bitter rivalary between the two nations and people are sick of the fighting. But there are some Republicans that would threaten the peaceful co-existience between Ireland and Britain, and that's why I believe their are Anti-Republicans around.

Does anyone else find their national pride tainted somewhat by the knowledge that our independence was gained by terrorism?

No and i'll tell you why. No war if fought right. You do what you have to do in order to win and that's what Micheal Collins believed, sure it's arguable about whether or not we did win but by using that so called terrorism, Collins was able to put a fire under the British rule in Ireland. Hell if you want to talk about terrorism, why don't you look at a guy like Oliver Cromwell who's terrorism led to many deaths in Ireland, yet England hold a lot of pride for him. Whether or not Ireland got it's independence through terrorism, isn't what people look at, what the see is heroic figures who fought for freedom.

nothin i hate more than some eejit goin on about how great the ra are and how the brits are this and that. i think omagh was a big moment when everyone realised republicanism and terrorism isn't sound.

Senna

I'd say a lot on here are;
Anti-terrorism
Anti SF/IRA etc
Have sympathy from republicans in NI
Dont want NI part of ROI
Dont want ROI to be part of UK

dvpower

Reillyman wrote: »

For example, many people have expressed the view that Michael Collins, Padraig Pearse etc etc were "terrorists"...I mean, come on lads.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Mossy Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

republicanism and terrorism isn't sound.

Republicanism does not equal terrorism.

El Siglo

Reillyman wrote: »

Anyway, there's my query, tear me to shreads!:P

Don't mind if I do!:D
A lot of this anti-republican attitude has to do with the IRA and what they've done along with the attitude of Sinn Fein to violence and their total ineptitude etc... Also, republicanism, wrongly, tends to connote ideas of car bombers, illegal diesel, racketeering etc... Furthermore, it's the fact that Northern Ireland is such a messed up place (along with the Republic, economically anyway) and that reunification would now be impossible and would almost destroy our public finances etc... You're right though, some people on boards think it's cool to spout anti-republicanism etc... Personally, I would like to see reunification but I doubt I'll ever see it in my life time, 2016my left one McGuinness!:rolleyes:

squod

Svalbard wrote: »

Does anyone else find their national pride tainted somewhat by the knowledge that our independence was gained by terrorism?

I dunno what to say, is that what you think....... really.

People fought for your freedom, that's what happened according to my old history teacher.
Similar conflits happened in states also over-run by crazy invaders looking to take what wasn't theirs.

You know, really, I dunno what to say to you.

gurramok

OP, there are many self proclaimed Unionist posters on the Politics forum as well as English posters thrown into the mix with Irish posters who have ignorant stereotype views.

Just watch how little knowledge these anti-nationalist/republican posters have of the north when they spout their views with no backup, its as almost they believe everything they read from The Sun.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Mossy Monk wrote: »

Republicanism does not equal terrorism.

Potentially it can. The OP should have really defined what he was referring to in his post.

ihadu

gurramok wrote: »

OP, there are many self proclaimed Unionist posters on the Politics forum as well as English posters thrown into the mix with Irish posters who have ignorant stereotype views.

Just watch how little knowledge these anti-nationalist/republican posters have of the north when they spout their views with no backup, its as almost they believe everything they read from The Sun.

well you won't like Kevin Myers from The Irish Independent either

fergusman

Personally while i would have republican sympathies, I really am starting to detest the sight of them, especially Ferris, MacDonald etc down south.

While i understand the mindset behind some of the violent actions in the past in the North given the circumstances at the time, the shooting in cold blood of the 2 gardai in Adare sickened me.
Ferris's actions have only managed to cement in my mind that I will never have any time for SF ever again.

I will never vote for a party that refuses to condemn the shooting of two officers of the law of this state.

SF's "alleged" links to organised crime and drugs dont help either but of course this is all "lies" .......yeah right

DoireNod

Svalbard wrote: »

Does anyone else find their national pride tainted somewhat by the knowledge that our independence was gained by terrorism?

Ah terrorism. The great buzz-word. We could go back through history and point out countless 'noble' achievements that would, in the event they happened now, be considered terrorism. Sure, depending on how you look at it, what the USA and UK are doing in the Middle East is terrorism. It's only 'terrorism' when it suits.

Originally Posted by dvpower
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Originally Posted by Mossy Monk
Republicanism does not equal terrorism.

Correct.

Republicans can accept criticism, but it's hard to swallow when it's accompanied by a largely ill-informed concept that all republicanism is, by default, wrong.

Reillyman

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Potentially it can. The OP should have really defined what he was referring to in his post.

What I am referring to is the recent wave of not only anti-republicanism, but also anti anything that Irish patriots have done, both achieved and failed...

These posts suggesting that certain Irish Heroes are terrorists etc. This is what I am referring to...

FlutterinBantam

Personally I'd say it has a lot to do with the one sided rhetoric spouted by the well known few on this subject.

These people cannot see another side to their point of view, and seem to think that posters here are stupid enough to believe that they have the definitive take on all things pertaining to NI.

I am as republican as the next man, but sure as hell won't be browbeaten by a line of rhetoric that went out of fashion in the last century.

There are two sides to every story and one mans hero is another man's villain.

A lot of the punters who post here don't seem to be able to grasp that concept and view things in a very bigoted and biased way.

Now that's bad enough but they then try to portray those who hold contrary views as somehow less than Irish.

I'll leave it up to discerning posters to decide why they don't gain much sympathy.

Svalbard

squod wrote: »

I dunno what to say, is that what you think....... really.

People fought for your freedom, that's what happened according to my old history teacher.
Similar conflits happened in states also over-run by crazy invaders looking to take what wasn't theirs.

You know, really, I dunno what to say to you.

The question stands and its a legitimate one.
As another poster pointed out Irish people do seem to have difficulty celebrating the architects of our independence freely as the Americans do. Why is that?

I'm not saying I'm not glad Ireland is independent or that we do not need to at least acknowledge those responsible, but I cannot feel uninhibited pride nor can I swallow much of the Wolf Tones/GAA/Oh-ah-up-the-RA crap that so many seem to think defines what it means to be Irish

gurramok

Reillyman wrote: »

What I am referring to is the recent wave of not only anti-republicanism, but also anti anything that Irish patriots have done, both achieved and failed...

These posts suggesting that certain Irish Heroes are terrorists etc. This is what I am referring to...

Because they believe that all was rosy here before 1922 and that there were no atrocities, persecutions, terror etc that happened before that.

Another bunch see their town/village been liberated as part of the ROI and don't give two hoots about their brethren who were thrown into a gerrymandered state post 1922 by the drawing of an imaginary line over the land.

Its mé-féinism.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Reillyman wrote: »

What I am referring to is the recent wave of not only anti-republicanism, but also anti anything that Irish patriots have done, both achieved and failed...

These posts suggesting that certain Irish Heroes are terrorists etc. This is what I am referring to...

Republicanism is a broad field. I even started a thread on it before. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055598850

My idealist preferred ruling for this Island would be a 32 county republic. My heart says yes but my head says no because I know unionists who were born on the Island and don't consider themselves Irish(cultural sense) yet have nothing against Irish culture. I never call myself a republican because I know it would lead people to the wrong conclusions about me.

There's always always been an anti-sinn fein IRA sentiment from many posters. Myself included.

The anti Irish patriots I think isn't that common, some fairly decent thread ideas comparing current dissidents to say 1916 rebels but the rest is people trying to be smart.

FlutterinBantam

Svalbard wrote: »

The question stands and its a legitimate one.
As another poster pointed out Irish people do seem to have difficulty celebrating the architects of our independence freely as the Americans do. Why is that?

I'm not saying I'm not glad Ireland is independent or that we do not need to at least acknowledge those responsible, but I cannot feel uninhibited pride nor can I swallow much of the Wolf Tones/GAA/Oh-ah-up-the-RA crap that so many seem to think defines what it means to be Irish

Excellent post, a lot of it about friend.

DoireNod

Svalbard wrote: »

The question stands and its a legitimate one.
As another poster pointed out Irish people do seem to have difficulty celebrating the architects of our independence freely as the Americans do. Why is that?

I'm not saying I'm not glad Ireland is independent or that we do not need to at least acknowledge those responsible, but I cannot feel uninhibited pride nor can I swallow much of the Wolf Tones/GAA/Oh-ah-up-the-RA crap that so many seem to think defines what it means to be Irish

I think the media has a big part to play in that. The whole situation created by partition, then the Troubles and the body-count which accompanied it, made it hard for people to be 'proud' of being Irish, since people associated it with 'terrorism'. :eek:

Maybe I'm wrong.

gurramok

Svalbard wrote: »

The question stands and its a legitimate one.
As another poster pointed out Irish people do seem to have difficulty celebrating the architects of our independence freely as the Americans do. Why is that?

Because many feel

1 - that the independence is not finished, that is the north is still the unfinished part.
2 - They are afraid to offend Britain. The USA celebrates their independence from Britain, what is there to be afraid of?
3 - The Irish civil war has split opinion through blood ties.
4 - They want to be part of the UK and feel that ROI is a mistake, they feel British.

Dr. Baltar

Like a previous poster said, "being anti-SF and anti-IRA" does not make you anti-republican.

I am a Republican myself and I look forward to the day that our nation is politically re-united. But at the same time, I am intelligent to know that "Britain" "Dinglish" and "DE KWEEN" are not our enemies, but that Unionism and Loyalism are the political groups that we must politically work together with to compromise.

Peace is so much more important than my ideals however!

The greatest victory our nation has had in modern times was signing the good friday agreement.

Svalbard

gurramok wrote: »

Because many feel

1 - that the independence is not finished, that is the north is still the unfinished part.
2 - They are afraid to offend Britain. The USA celebrates their independence from Britain, what is there to be afraid of?
3 - The Irish civil war has split opinion through blood ties.
4 - They want to be part of the UK and feel that ROI is a mistake, they feel British.

1. Perhaps
2. I sincerely doubt it
3. Quite possibly
4. Well, I doubt many feel that way, but some perhaps.

Reillyman

DoireNod wrote: »

I think the media has a big part to play in that. The whole situation created by partition, then the Troubles and the body-count which accompanied it, made it hard for people to be 'proud' of being Irish, since people associated it with 'terrorism'. :eek:

Maybe I'm wrong.

You my friend, are seeing things from the same view as me. I feel more or less the same, I feel that people are becoming more and more anti-republican because of the troubles and all that goes with it, including the like of halfwit Ferris meeting murderers outside prison gates.

This is totally understandable. But what I can't understand, is people who are taking it too far and trying to denounce and distance themselves from all things Irish, throwing in the GAA, 1916, Irish Patriots, Irish Language etc.

I mean, where will this stop? If peoples attitudes continue to shift in this direction, we will have nothing that we can stand up and be proud of, something that is ours and no-one elses, something that gives hope and encouragement to Irish people...

Dudess

Reillyman wrote: »

Anyway, what I have noticed on Boards over the last year or so is this huge wave of fierce anti-Republicanism. It seems to me that to be anti-Republican is currently the "cool" thing to do, by showing you can think for yourself, are anti-conformist etc etc.

The anti-republican posts are not confined to the obviously understandable(and right imo) negative views of the IRA and SF, but I have seen posts which more or less denounce any achivements we have made breaking free from britain. For example, many people have expressed the view that Michael Collins, Padraig Pearse etc etc were "terrorists"...I mean, come on lads. Another popular thing is that "we'd be better off if we had stayed with Britain."

What I think is that alot of people posting these comments don't actually believe these things themselves, but rather are trying to show how "free-thinking" and "intelligent" they are...

Well I wouldn't say it's a case of trying to be "cool" - they're not 13-year-olds - but I would agree it smacks of trying to show how enlightened and progressive they are, whereas it actually just comes across as phenomenally ignorant and uninformed.
Conor Cruise O'Brien acted like a prick, as do Kevin Myers and Eoghan Harris. Pathetic attention-seekers - I've no time for their protégés.
Having sympathy for nationalist/republican ideals does not make you a terrorist supporter or a "Celtic fan scumbag".

Svalbard wrote: »

I doubt most people who disagree with republican dogma are doing it 'to be cool'. They, like me, have a problem with the ardent republican attitude which glorifies barbarism and relies on fuzzy facts and half-truths.

But it's not a case of simply disagreeing with republican dogma (which is a reasonable stance), it's a case of practically worshipping at the altar of loyalism, downplaying the suffering endured by nationalists in the North after partition - even sneering at it, being more outraged by republican atrocities than loyalist/British Army/RUC ones. I have seen those things here and it absolutely sickens me.

DoireNod wrote: »

Ah terrorism. The great buzz-word. We could go back through history and point out countless 'noble' achievements that would, in the event they happened now, be considered terrorism. Sure, depending on how you look at it, what the USA and UK are doing in the Middle East is terrorism. It's only 'terrorism' when it suits.

If you wear a nice uniform and your acts of violence are backed by a state, you are not a terrorist - fact. And if you carry out an act of retribution whose body-count FAR outnumbers that of the offence it is intended to avenge, it's ok - it's self defence.

Republicans can accept criticism

I don't know about all of them. The other side of it recently is the depressing defence/lack of condemnation of Jerry McCabe's killers, and the praise of Martin Ferris. Sadly, some republicans are absolutely blinded and brainwashed.

gandalf

You mistake Anti-Republicanism with the hate of double standards especially those spouted by Sinn Fein and their supporters as demonstrated by Martin Ferris recently.

I have no problem celebrating the people who got us Independence like Padraig Pearse and Michael Collins, but I draw a distinction between them and the recent activities by organisations like the Provos. Shooting Taxi Drivers in the back and blowing up Schoolkids are not the actions of heroes. To be honest the PIRA, INLA, UVF, UFF and other such gangs with self important names are nothing more than murderous thugs all with the same aim which is to sponge off their communities to perserve their own importance.

TheSpecialOne

Where afraid to stand and say thanks to the brave men who fought for our independence if it wasnt for them we could all be fighting a war in iraq!have some pride for great men like collins connolly griffith etc.....we must be proud of all there efforts althought i do agree that the murder of innocent people is totally immoral...the ira killed the innocent instead of those who where pushing against the idea of a united Ireland!Thats my only gripe with Republicans these days!

But That ferris fella is some twat...what has the two scumbags who killed gerry mccabe got to do with independence!!disgraceful action by him!!Sinn Fein Is A Club For Scum....

DublinWriter

So much sh*te, so little time, where to begin?

Firstly, the 'Brits Out' attitude. No, horah for the Queen, the UK government have been subsidising a rather unproductive corner of this isle for a long time. Qudos to them, I say.

Secondly, the 'leaders' of the 1916 revolution were an unholy mix of idealistic middle-class petite-bourgeois and extreme left-wing ideologues. People in this country don't seem to be able to tell the difference between the clusterf*ck that was 1916 and the subsequent War of Independence. To them it's easier to go all dewey-eyed over a load of historic nonscence than actually do something pragmatic, such as learn your own language.

Thirdly, have you been to Newry lately? Oi! The bargains.

Fourthly, we're all basically fleas arguing over who owns the dog.

Reillyman

DublinWriter wrote: »

Thirdly, have you been to Newry lately? Oi! The bargains.

No, but I have been to Enniskillen, what's your point?

DoireNod

DublinWriter wrote: »

Firstly, the 'Brits Out' attitude. No, horah for the Queen, the UK government have been subsidising a rather unproductive corner of this isle for a long time. Qudos to them, I say.

Rather unproductive corner of this isle? Did you forget to learn Irish history in the 19th and 20th centuries? That 'rather unproductive corner' of the isle was very productive at one stage. The UKs government's subsidisation of the 6 counties is their cross to bear, so to speak.

Secondly, the 'leaders' of the 1916 revolution were an unholy mix of idealistic middle-class petite-bourgeois and extreme left-wing ideologues. People in this country don't seem to be able to tell the difference between the clusterf*ck that was 1916 and the subsequent War of Independence. To them it's easier to go all dewey-eyed over a load of historic nonscence than actually do something pragmatic, such as learn your own language.

Their social status isn't that important when they achieved a degree of Irish independence from British rule. To many people they fought for the principles of 'freedom'. You have a problem with their desire for freedom? Or people commending their actions?

Thirdly, have you been to Newry lately? Oi! The bargains.

What's this got to do with anti-republicanism?

Fourthly, we're all basically fleas arguing over who owns the dog.

Profound...:rolleyes:

Bottle_of_Smoke

gandalf wrote: »

To be honest the PIRA, INLA, UVF, UFF and other such gangs with self important names are nothing more than murderous thugs all with the same aim which is to sponge off their communities to perserve their own importance.

Thats deeply ignorant. I don't know much about the INLA and the loyalist groups but life in the PIRA was no bed of roses. You had to accept death or imprisonment was your future. You got paid f*ck all. Talking about being a member was completely banned. Getting drunk or even drinking was highly frowned upon. I'd imagine the INLA was similar as were the the UVF in the early days.

just read pages 544,545 and 546 of this (takes less than 3 min, the link starts on page 544)

chapter 33 "The Green Book" The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan

dvpower

DublinWriter wrote: »

People in this country don't seem to be able to tell the difference between the clusterf*ck that was 1916 and the subsequent War of Independence

Too right. In 2016 we'll have massive commemorations and 2022 will go by unnoticed.

gandalf

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Thats deeply ignorant. I don't know much about the INLA and the loyalist groups but life in the PIRA was no bed of roses. You had to accept death or imprisonment was your future. You got paid f*ck all. Talking about being a member was completely banned. Getting drunk or even drinking was highly frowned upon. I'd imagine the INLA was similar as were the the UVF in the early days.

just read pages 544,545 and 546 of this (takes less than 3 min, the link starts on page 544)

chapter 33 "The Green Book" The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan

Jean McConville, Jerry McCabe, Johnathan Ball, Tim Parry, Patrick Gillespie, Brian McDonald.

Erin Go Brath

dvpower wrote: »

Too right. In 2016 we'll have massive commemorations and 2022 will go by unnoticed.

Proof if any is needed that people are not proud of the birth of the republic of Ireland or the free state as it was. 1916 is the seminal event in Irish history. Only when we have a United Ireland will there be a more important day celebrated than Easter 1916.

Bottle_of_Smoke

gandalf wrote: »

Jean McConville, Jerry McCabe, Johnathan Ball, Tim Parry, Patrick Gillespie, Brian McDonald.

That response doesn't make sense of what you posted in the previous post. The link I gave you was the induction for a volunteer and shows how simplistic and ignorant your previous post was.

bug

dvpower wrote: »

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

It's one word I believe should be banned.
This may actually force people to look at the dynamics of different political situations, rather than media labelling.

As for republicanism and boards.ie, well, the two never really went hand in hand.
That's IMO and it's not a popular one... I had always thought it was a question of the boards.ie political demographic more than anything else.

dvpower

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Proof if any is needed that people are not proud of the birth of the republic of Ireland

Wasn't that 1949?
(I thought it was '48 - I had to look it up - but that'll be overlooked too in favour of commemoration of an unpopular, unnecessary and failed uprising.)

Erin Go Brath

dvpower wrote: »

Wasn't that 1949?
(I thought it was '48 - I had to look it up - but that'll be overlooked too in favour of commemoration of an unpopular, unnecessary and failed uprising.)

Freestate '21, republic 49'. Neither are even remotely celebration worthy. I think people are mostly ashamed that we abandoned the north and haven't achieved full independence. The biggest celebrations are the 1798 commemorations (held in Bodenstown) and of course 1916, the two most significant uprisings against British rule. Thats unlikely to change until Unity when we will finally be able to celebrate the birth of a nation.

IIMII

DoireNod wrote: »

Republicans can accept criticism, but it's hard to swallow when it's accompanied by a largely ill-informed concept that all republicanism is, by default, wrong.

Well, if republicanism is bad, the US, France, Italy etc etc etc, must all be rogue states. It is obviously far more democratic to award your upper house and position of head of state based on the concept that your head of state's parents mated with the right cousins / brothers / sisters etc etc.