Predictions for Magners League and Heineken Cup

SpAcEd OuT

O.K so your predictions for this years magners league and Heineken Cup.

So for Magners League I can see Leinster winning it. Leinster's depth this year is extraordinary and they definitely have the quality in depth to always have a strong team out.

However for Heineken Cup I am not so sure. Leinster have decided to go against importing a star NIQ player and decided to go with youth in Sean O'Brien, McFadden, McLaughlin (not much 8 cover so I assume he will play a role) and Irish qualified in Ross and Reddan. Whilst I think its great Leinster have gone for Irish I don't think anyone would of complained if Leinster had brought in someone like Du Preez or Brussow for a year or two instead of the likes of Reddan and O'Brien! I know its better for Irish rugby but is it better for Leinster's chances in the HC? Nope probably not!

So for Heineken Cup I am going to have to side with Munster after Leinster's loss of Rocky Elsom and Munsters import of JDV just can't see them losing it. Obviously if the French teams care then I can see one of them winning the HC but they never seem to anymore!


As an aside I think its great that for both competitions I can only really see two Irish provinces winning it!

Cuchulain

Leinster - Magners League
Leicester - Heineken Cup
France - 6 Nations

wixfjord

The transfer period isnt over yet, and it has been touted that Leinster will bring in another player. I think the squad is looking better balanced everywhere except the back row compared to the start of last year, and had always been of the opinion that Conters at oh wasnt a good tactic. Hopefully Sexton can push on. On the scrum half issue, Im more than happy to have reddan and O Donoghue battle it out. By the way Brussow is a 7.

OT I can see an Irish province winning the ML, possibly Leinster because surely the big red machine will be concentrating on winning the crown back. Edinburgh could be dark horses again.

As much as I would like to I cant see Leinster putting up back to back trophies, simply for the fact that better teams have tried and failed and if ROG and Leamy can regain form, and the likes of Earls Warwick and O Leary continue their form of last season, Munster will push. They peaked a bit early last season and Macgahan will have that bit more experience.

However, as another poster said, if Stade, Tolouse, Perpignan and Clermont concentrate on the HC, they will be hard to stop. Great chance for an irish province again because theres not much in England this year imo.

yupyup7up

Munster for the double and Ireland championship

2040

I put a tenner on Clermont to win the heineken cup a month or two ago. 16/1 i think. I think they just might look to concentrate on the competition this year. The halfback partnership of Parra and James is surely one of the best in Europe.

Munster, Cardiff or Leinster for the ML. I'll say Munster.

France to win the 6 nations. Ireland to win the triple crown.

Depp

munster and...oh yeah munster, c'mon the reds(literally) ireland for grand slam

sickpuppy

Munster win magners league.

Connacht finish last magners league and Bradley still to have a job at the end of it.:mad:

Heineken cup Toulouse.

John Hayes not to retire.

wixfjord

A bit of analysis rather than just blind faith and optimism wouldnt go astray.

SpAcEd OuT

Sickpuppy, depp and yuyyup7up care to expand on your opinions rather than just saying the team you support is going to win.

chupacabra

The Magners League will be interesting this season with the play off structure. Id say Munster, Leinster, Ospreys and Cardiff/Edinburgh to make the playoffs with Ulster hopefully getting close too. Fingers crossed for a Munster v Leinster final. Munster to get revenge for Croker!

Munster to also roar back for their 3rd Heineken cup in 5 years!

And Ireland to defend their Six Nations crown.

Incredibly biased yes, but i dont care

wixfjord

chupacabra wrote: »

The Magners League will be interesting this season with the play off structure. Id say Munster, Leinster, Ospreys and Cardiff/Edinburgh to make the playoffs with Ulster hopefully getting close too. Fingers crossed for a Munster v Leinster final. Munster to get revenge for Croker!

Munster to also roar back for their 3rd Heineken cup in 5 years!

And Ireland to defend their Six Nations crown.

Incredibly biased yes, but i dont care

Jesus yeah forgot about the ML play offs. This reduces the chance of a team like Edinburgh or Cardiff winning it imo.

Also looking at the Heineken Cup, if Stade or Tolouse concentrated on it, they would blow everyone, Munster and Leinster included, away. Take a look at the squads its frightening.

sock puppet

wixfjord wrote: »

Jesus yeah forgot about the ML play offs. This reduces the chance of a team like Edinburgh or Cardiff winning it imo.

Also looking at the Heineken Cup, if Stade or Tolouse concentrated on it, they would blow everyone, Munster and Leinster included, away. Take a look at the squads its frightening.

That's far from true imo. Toulouse concentrated on it this year they were just awful against cardiff. Stade Francais had excellent teams out against Harlequins and their home game had a huge attendance.

I reckon Leinster and Munster will finish top 2 in the ML and contest the final. Good squads and it's extremely rare for either team to lose at home.

I'm not sure about the Heineken Cup. Leinster peaked at exactly the right time this year and were lucky to have Cullen and Darcy back for the latter part of the season.

Verres

TBH, if Clermont set their mind to it I can't see anyone stopping them this year. That's not to say that they will, but they've been getting closer each year recently.

I actually fancy Leinster to do it again this year. I think Rocky, while immense, was over rated by the pundits. If we managed to get someone like Stephen Ferris (there's been no mention of this - I'm just saying) on the team we'd be completely sorted, but I honestly don't see the back row being an area we'll struggle in. I think buying Keatley back from Connacht would be a good move to provide cover at 10.

Otherwise, I think we need to consider the front row. They haven't done much to shore up the gap from Van der Linde's departure. That said, he was injured for a lot of the season so he wasn't as pivotal as he might have been.

All in all, I'd say Leinster for the HC, Munster for the Magners, and Ireland for the Championship. I reckon there'll be no Grand Slam this year.

Also, although it's by the by, I'm backing the All Blacks to win the next RWC too.

Depp

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Sickpuppy, depp and yuyyup7up care to expand on your opinions rather than just saying the team you support is going to win.

no, no i do not.

danthefan

Verres wrote: »

Otherwise, I think we need to consider the front row. They haven't done much to shore up the gap from Van der Linde's departure. That said, he was injured for a lot of the season so he wasn't as pivotal as he might have been.

What? Van der Linde hasn't departed, and Ross has been signed. If Van der Linde gets fit Leinster have the best set of props in Europe, bar none.

tommy57

munster magnars

munster henicken cup

Ireland for 6 nations.

south africa world cup even though 2011.

yupyup7up

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Sickpuppy, depp and yuyyup7up care to expand on your opinions rather than just saying the team you support is going to win.

are we not allowed genuinely be of the opinion that the teams we support will win?:rolleyes:

danthefan

yupyup7up wrote: »

are we not allowed genuinely be of the opinion that the teams we support will win?:rolleyes:

Of course you are, can people not ask why?

Stev_o

GP-Leicester
EDF-Leicester
HC-Leicester

The treble is coming i can feel it

Depp

danthefan wrote: »

Of course you are, can people not ask why?

nope

_blank_

General Warning.

Stop with the inter-provincial bullshít.

If people are not prepared to post in a constructive, civil manner, then I am not prepared to tolerate them on this forum.

Bans will follow.

sm.org

2040 wrote: »

I put a tenner on Clermont to win the heineken cup a month or two ago. 16/1 i think. I think they just might look to concentrate on the competition this year. The halfback partnership of Parra and James is surely one of the best in Europe.

Munster, Cardiff or Leinster for the ML. I'll say Munster.

France to win the 6 nations. Ireland to win the triple crown.

Clermont dont give a rats ass about the HC.Vern Cotter has been pretty much told to win the league or go home. The T14 is far more important to them, as it is to the majority of French teams. Toulose are the only ones who care about the HC and that more out of spite to FRU then anything else.

The Ospreys must come good eventually and have made some decent signings to add to an already excellent squad.

bleg

Gona go with the Bookies and say Munster for the HC.


Ospreys for the Magners perhaps.


6 nations is a tough one to call though. 4 possible winners. ammmmm, England

Leinster for Magners and Stade for Heineken.

I think a French club will win it this year and I have a feeling about Stade,quality team and its about time.

I think Leinster will now have a winning mentality and you will see players like Bod,Darce,Cullen,Horgan driven to win some more silverware before their career ends.

The Ospreys could also feature in the Magners,they have a great team and their new coach could do something with them.

Munster I dont think will feature,I think what you saw at Croker was a team on the way down.O'gara,Wallace,Hayes,Quinlan are fairly old now and the team is an ageing one,I could be wrong but thats the way I see it.

dreamer_ire

I think Munster have the edge for the HC, valuable experience of both winning and losing finals will stand to them.

ML will be an all Irish final and Leinster have to have the edge given their squad. I think Ospreys who despite having a great team will be empty handed at the end of the year. Would love to see Connacht finish above the Dragons and Ulster making a play off spot.

Ireland will win the Triple Crown but I think France may edge the 6N.

In my heart I'd love to see a Munster double and an Irish Grand Slam and 6N but I'd be very very happy to see Irish teams claiming all the NH trophies available to them again this year.

2040

sm.org wrote: »

Clermont dont give a rats ass about the HC.Vern Cotter has been pretty much told to win the league or go home. The T14 is far more important to them, as it is to the majority of French teams. Toulose are the only ones who care about the HC and that more out of spite to FRU then anything else.

Jamie Cudmore didn't seem too apathetic in Thomond Park last year. I take your point though and it's probably more wishful thinking on my part than anything else. The HC would be so much better if the French teams were taking it seriously.

Stick_man

Munster will take some stopping in the Heineken especially if De Villers fits in. Leinster are also serious contenders but the loss of Elsom is huge. Id like to say Stade will also be there but I go for them every year and they fail every time! Magners will go to Ospreys.

razorblunt

Magners: Leinster/Ospreys
Heineken: Munster/Leicester
6 Nations: France
GP: Leicester

Stade would be an outside pick if they stop losing away games in the pool to carry in a bit of confidence if they have to go away from home in the knockouts.

ALH-06

Katelyn Rotten Seafood wrote: »

Munster I dont think will feature,I think what you saw at Croker was a team on the way down.O'gara,Wallace,Hayes,Quinlan are fairly old now and the team is an ageing one,I could be wrong but thats the way I see it.

Wow, are you seriously writing off Munster on that one performance? Remember the match before that one at all???

Hayes is definitely getting on, but they've just signed a French international prop as well. As for Quinlan, I'd never write him off but expect Nick Williams to make a big impact in the backrow this year. The other players you mentioned are nowhere near past it!

TheSpecialOne

Magners-Leinster
Heineken Cup-Munster/Leinster
6 Nations-Wales

Whats this nonsense about french sides not taking the Heineken seriously typical irish addtitude of putting our teams down when they win something...il accept clermont dont care much for it...but stade, toulouse,perpignan certainly do.

razorblunt

ALH-06 wrote: »

Wow, are you seriously writing off Munster on that one performance? Remember the match before that one at all???

Hayes is definitely getting on, but they've just signed a French international prop as well. As for Quinlan, I'd never write him off but expect Nick Williams to make a big impact in the backrow this year. The other players you mentioned are nowhere near past it!

And sure people said the exact same thing when they lost away to Llanelli in th quarters.

ALH-06

ALH-06 wrote: »

Wow, are you seriously writing off Munster on that one performance? Remember the match before that one at all???

Hayes is definitely getting on, but they've just signed a French international prop as well. As for Quinlan, I'd never write him off but expect Nick Williams to make a big impact in the backrow this year. The other players you mentioned are nowhere near past it!

No I am not writing them off after 1 performance,im looking at the broader picture.

Key members of the teams successs are getting seriously on in age,Hayes shouldnt even still be playing,he defies logic.
Quinlan is 35,O'gara is 32,Wallace is 33.

Munster fans will of course argue otherwise but its my opinion.

[Jackass]

call it blind faith, but i dare to dream the impossible dream! I dare to reach for the unreachable...I dare to put my neck on the line...I've a feeling of a second Leinster Heineken...

I just think teams change when they win it, when the holy grail becomes a reality, I think Leinster and Munster are going to be the 2 best teams in the Heineken Cup this season..I actually feel we could have 2 finals between the 2 this season!!! :eek: I know this is crazy talk to some, but I think it might happen...

I reckon Leinster pulled a Kayzer soze on Munster last season..the RDS game with Nacewa at 10 experiment going on, Contepomi missing 4 kicks that would have given Leinster a healthy lead for 70 minutes, I don't think they'd have been chasing if they had that lead or lost...in Limerick, Horgan in the centre etc., no O'Driscoll, I think everyone forgets Leinster didn't get MOST of a full squad and didn't find key positions for players until the final quarter of the season, and Leinster were amazing..

I think that bedding in period from last season wont be experienced again and Leinster can pick up from where they left off, and if key players are on form and please god no major injury worries, I think Leinster are more than capable, and for once, beleivable, to go all the way again...the belief and experience is finaly there...the biggest threat being Munster.....

I'm very excited for this season, no matter what happens or who wins, I fully expect the Heineken Cup and Magners League to remain in Ireland and I'd love to say a Leinster double...but we don't want to get ahead of ourselves...get a home quarter and take it from there, home semi in magners...

Stev_o

[Jackass] wrote: »

call it blind faith, but i dare to dream the impossible dream! I dare to reach for the unreachable...I dare to put my neck on the line...I've a feeling of a second Leinster Heineken...

Leicester are the only club to have ever won the HC back to back so hands off :P

Stick_man

[Jackass] wrote: »

call it blind faith, but i dare to dream the impossible dream! I dare to reach for the unreachable...I dare to put my neck on the line...I've a feeling of a second Leinster Heineken...

I just think teams change when they win it, when the holy grail becomes a reality, I think Leinster and Munster are going to be the 2 best teams in the Heineken Cup this season..I actually feel we could have 2 finals between the 2 this season!!! :eek: I know this is crazy talk to some, but I think it might happen...

I reckon Leinster pulled a Kayzer soze on Munster last season..the RDS game with Nacewa at 10 experiment going on, Contepomi missing 4 kicks that would have given Leinster a healthy lead for 70 minutes, I don't think they'd have been chasing if they had that lead or lost...in Limerick, Horgan in the centre etc., no O'Driscoll, I think everyone forgets Leinster didn't get MOST of a full squad and didn't find key positions for players until the final quarter of the season, and Leinster were amazing..

I think that bedding in period from last season wont be experienced again and Leinster can pick up from where they left off, and if key players are on form and please god no major injury worries, I think Leinster are more than capable, and for once, beleivable, to go all the way again...the belief and experience is finaly there...the biggest threat being Munster.....

I'm very excited for this season, no matter what happens or who wins, I fully expect the Heineken Cup and Magners League to remain in Ireland and I'd love to say a Leinster double...but we don't want to get ahead of ourselves...get a home quarter and take it from there, home semi in magners...

No harm in having faith especially when your champions, but you havent mentioned replacing that aussie guy. He was handy I thought last year.

ALH-06

Stick_man wrote: »

No harm in having faith especially when your champions, but you havent mentioned replacing that aussie guy. He was handy I thought last year.

Nah, Reddan's coming in for Whitaker mate.

Stick_man

ALH-06 wrote: »

Nah, Reddan's coming in for Whitaker mate.

nice

ALH-06

Katelyn Rotten Seafood wrote: »

No I am not writing them off after 1 performance,im looking at the broader picture.

Key members of the teams successs are getting seriously on in age,Hayes shouldnt even still be playing,he defies logic.
Quinlan is 35,O'gara is 32,Wallace is 33.

Munster fans will of course argue otherwise but its my opinion.

I'm no Munster fan and I'll argue otherwise!

ROG has two good years left in him at least - his game is not dependent on speed or any other physical asset that is tainted by age. As for Wallace, he's playing the best rugby of his career. Look at Martyn Williams - Wales are dying to keep him till the next WC because he's playing good rugby, despite his age. And you're predicting the demise of a player who's 2/3 years younger, and who had him on the bench for two Lions tests...

Of course Munster will remain extremely competitive next year and in the near future. But maybe after that it's not so clear... There's already been a thread on the apparent lack of young talent coming through down south.

Fair enough,as I said its just an opinion/hunch.

kopykat

magners league should be a tight affair between munster and leinster.hopefully leinster will come out on top frim that one.i feel that from looking at last season leinster,munster and cardiff were the best team in the heineken cup and again i would put my money on leinster if they keep up the form that they were in the later stages of last years competition.

Four-Percent

[Jackass] wrote: »

I reckon Leinster pulled a Kayzer soze on Munster last season.

Saw that film the other day.....


Quality.

Eireannach

Munster, Munster, Ireland

Teg Veece

I think whoever the winner of the Magners League will depend a lot on how the teams do in the HC. There seems to be an inverse relationship between how teams perform in the two competitions.
If I had to guess, I'd say Munster to win because of the playoff system suiting them nicely.

I think a French side will come out on top in the HC. The fact that it's being played in Paris will be a be incentive for them. If Clermont get out of their group (which this year it looks like they will) then I think they'll be a very tough side to stop and could go all the way.

The 6 Nations on even years is always a tricky one for Ireland. When's the last time Ireland won in France?
I'm gonna go with the Frenchies clinching the title this year.

yupyup7up

danthefan wrote: »

Of course you are, can people not ask why?

Sorry read your initial post wrong... :rolleyes:

Munster have great depth in their squad, as shown in the 08/09 season so I think they are more than capable of winning the league.

Their first team is ridiculously strong. Its a proven team and one which wont have players under pressure for a Lions tour. Just look at how they dispatched the Ospreys in the quarter final, and then after McGeechan announced the lions squad they crumbled against a pretty average Leinster performance...

Then for Ireland, if you look at their performances in this year 6N, when they got going they seemed unstoppable. Just look at the Ireland Vs France game. Also, the best attacking options in the Lions team were all Irish players (except Roberts). If we can play this style of open rugby behind a strong pack with a good territorial game, then I can see Ireland walking it(Id say maybe one loss this time though...)

smurphy29

yupyup7up wrote: »

Sorry read your initial post wrong... :rolleyes:

Munster have great depth in their squad, as shown in the 08/09 season so I think they are more than capable of winning the league.

Their first team is ridiculously strong. Its a proven team and one which wont have players under pressure for a Lions tour. Just look at how they dispatched the Ospreys in the quarter final, and then after McGeechan announced the lions squad they crumbled against a pretty average Leinster performance...

Then for Ireland, if you look at their performances in this year 6N, when they got going they seemed unstoppable. Just look at the Ireland Vs France game. Also, the best attacking options in the Lions team were all Irish players (except Roberts). If we can play this style of open rugby behind a strong pack with a good territorial game, then I can see Ireland walking it(Id say maybe one loss this time though...)

So if the team plays at its best when under pressure for Lions places, dosen't that mean they'll be awful this year? I fail to see the logic...

A lot of optimism on the thread, I have a nervy feeling about it. Leinster have it all to do, it's hard to win back-to-back Heiny's, but I'll be pleased if they get to the semi-finals. Munster really depends on whether their slightly ageing back-row has one more season in them. Wally was brilliant last season, can he go to the well once more, on the back of a fatiguing Lions tour? I'm not sure...

If Clermont can get to the knock-outs they'll win.

ALH-06

yupyup7up wrote: »

Their first team is ridiculously strong. Its a proven team and one which wont have players under pressure for a Lions tour. Just look at how they dispatched the Ospreys in the quarter final, and then after McGeechan announced the lions squad they crumbled against a pretty average Leinster performance...

I don't agree at all. Munster peaked too early in the season, it happens! It's insulting to the Munster players to say that the announcement of the Lions squad got too much for them, in terms of pressure. Why didn't the Leinster Lions crumble under this pressure? And it's insulting to Leinster to say that Munster capitulated to an 'average' performance. Anyone that actually saw that match and understands the game would disagree with you there.

yupyup7up wrote: »

Then for Ireland, if you look at their performances in this year 6N, when they got going they seemed unstoppable. Just look at the Ireland Vs France game. Also, the best attacking options in the Lions team were all Irish players (except Roberts). If we can play this style of open rugby behind a strong pack with a good territorial game, then I can see Ireland walking it(Id say maybe one loss this time though...)

'When they got going'? The French match was Ireland's first fixture in the 6N. We didn't seem so unstoppable when winning only by one score in Scotland and by only a single point against England.

As for the Lions tour, I was really impressed by some of the Welsh players. I don't think you can say that the best attacking options 'were all Irish players' when there's Roberts, Byrne, Philips etc to consider!

Riskymove

Magners league

Between Munster and Leinster if they want it tbh

a lot depends on how they focus on the HC

Heineken Cup

Munster and Leinster still have what it takes to be in contention and am not put off by their group opponents

having said all that the usual "how serious will french teams take it" clause applies. there has been some serious recruitment this summer by french teams

6N

Its the more difficult year for Ireland being away in London and Paris so i think France will probably win the championship.

I'd hope for a triple crown for Ireland and a competitive game against France as a good year


Player development

I'd like to see Earls, McFadden, o'brien, Cave, Toner, Caldwell and Jones A LOT this season

I hope to see sexton have a good first year as first choice out-half; if he develops his potential I'd be a lot happier going into a WC in 2011

Riskymove

ALH-06 wrote: »

I don't agree at all. Munster peaked too early in the season, it happens! It's insulting to the Munster players to say that the announcement of the Lions squad got too much for them, in terms of pressure. Why didn't the Leinster Lions crumble under this pressure? And it's insulting to Leinster to say that Munster capitulated to an 'average' performance. Anyone that actually saw that match and understands the game would disagree with you there.

agree 100%

andrewdcs

Have a strong feeling its a French year, just as last was Irish.
HC to any of Toulouse/Stade/Perp/Clermont, very strong squads and I think we'll see more focus from them on the Cup as strenghening squads of players fight for national recognition. Irish teams to go into playoffs but stumble at first hurdle. Leinster haven't got a new Rocky anywhere and absolute talisman in a team of heroes last season.

As for Magners, with the finals situation I predict an Irish final, Leinster Munster, heart says Leinster to shade it
Ospreys / Cardiff blues in the playoffs.

Ireland barely scraped the Slam / Championship this year, (I've been watching the DVD, so good, gives a real lift!) and this is an even year so France England Italy away, Wales Scots home, I predict 2 losses, championship to France, with one loss. We come second on points.

yupyup7up

ALH-06 wrote: »

I don't agree at all. Munster peaked too early in the season, it happens! It's insulting to the Munster players to say that the announcement of the Lions squad got too much for them, in terms of pressure. Why didn't the Leinster Lions crumble under this pressure? And it's insulting to Leinster to say that Munster capitulated to an 'average' performance. Anyone that actually saw that match and understands the game would disagree with you there.



'When they got going'? The French match was Ireland's first fixture in the 6N. We didn't seem so unstoppable when winning only by one score in Scotland and by only a single point against England.

As for the Lions tour, I was really impressed by some of the Welsh players. I don't think you can say that the best attacking options 'were all Irish players' when there's Roberts, Byrne, Philips etc to consider!

I was at that match and Leinster were pretty damn average. Cian Healy, Sexton and Drico being the exceptions. And Ive been playing rugby myself a few years so I obviously understand the game. By saying "When they got going" I mean when the team gelled together well, which happened at certain points in each match. With Kidney coaching them, they seem to gel together much better and time will only improve on this. At certain times during the 09 6N, they fell apart. What Im saying is that they showed glimpses of sheer class in attack and that will be improved this year.

Secondly they havent been called the "Leinster Lions" for the past 6/7 years and how many of that starting XV against munster were in Lions contention? How could Munster not even turn up that day after thrashing the Ospreys? Most of Leinsters team that day had nothing to lose (with the exception of Fitzy , Drico) Munster had 7 lions in the starting setup

Blured

yupyup7up wrote: »

I was at that match and Leinster were pretty damn average. Cian Healy, Sexton and Drico being the exceptions. And Ive been playing rugby myself a few years so I obviously understand the game. By saying "When they got going" I mean when the team gelled together well, which happened at certain points in each match. With Kidney coaching them, they seem to gel together much better and time will only improve on this. At certain times during the 09 6N, they fell apart. What Im saying is that they showed glimpses of sheer class in attack and that will be improved this year.

Secondly they havent been called the "Leinster Lions" for the past 6/7 years and how many of that starting XV against munster were in Lions contention? How could Munster not even turn up that day after thrashing the Ospreys? Most of Leinsters team that day had nothing to lose (with the exception of Fitzy , Drico) Munster had 7 lions in the starting setup

This is just nonsense - Munster lost because they failed to perform on the day. Maybe down to believing the hype, maybe down to Leinsters performance, who knows. What it wasnt down to was Munster players worring about injuring themselves for the Lions

On the prediction front - I think the Magners could go to any of five teams with the new playoff structure - Leinster, Munster, Ospreys, Cardiff or Edinburgh. As people have said above, winner could be determined on how all the teams are doing in the HC

Heineken - would love to see Leinster retain it, but I think the loss of Rocky will make that impossible. Have a soft spot for Toulouse, if we cant win it then they should!