TT Talk

Raam

I never did any TTs before this summer, and I found that while they aren't fun at the time, they are a place where huge gains can be made from training and equipment. And that's the fun part... seeing your times improve. That and beating other people.

Anyway, let's get the ball rolling...

I need some new bars, just as clip ons for my road bike. I figure that will do to start with.

So without breaking the bank, I'm considering these: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=29276

Lumen

Billy Whizz wrote: »

None in particular, know a couple of lads who have Oval setups but they're pricey. If you're looking for a set of clip-ons for your road bike you should be able to find a good deal online on a pair that have a lot of room for adjustments. Try and get a set which can be teamed with base bars, bar end shifters and brake levers if you decide to go down that route.

I have the Profile Carbon Stryke and they're very adjustable if quite pricey, the only problem is the pads block the tops when climbing. You can sort of hang on to the pads themselves, but these might be a better bet, and are cheaper if not quite as adjustable. Cheaper from CRC than Wiggle as usual.

Disclaimer: 1 boards muck-around hardly makes me a TT expert.

edit: w.r.t those PZs, they don't look adjustable for reach.

Highway_To_Hell

I have a set of the Aero bars with the flip up rests and find they are great as they give you more grip options, probably not required for flat TT's but I leave mine on all the time so I can work on my aero position when out on training spins.

scottreynolds

The bars you buy depend on the set up of your bike. My bike (the Scott) has a longer top tube so I needed shorter bars like these... http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=26979

You shouldn't just buy any ol' bars as if they take away too much power (from your hip angle being changed) then there's little point. I got the recommendation from Whellworx to get the shorter ones and they seem to work well.

RAAM -- you can borrow mine for a trial and also RobFowl has some (I think longer ones) he's offered in the past. Buying on spec seems silly here..

scottreynolds

Lumen wrote: »

..... the only problem is the pads block the tops when climbing......

You shouldn't be getting out of your TT position if possible although it depends how step the climbing is... A Hill TT I'm not sure if I would use them.

Like LUMEN my advice is only based on one TT and lots of reading... RAAM still bet me by 15 seconds on that TT.

biker_joe

yea, I agree I would try get a set which you could later use with a base bar setup ..... I don't like the loop setup cos I think you get a flatter back by going lower with ordinary non looped clip-ons ..... plus using a non loopy setup will be easier when ( if ) you transition to a full TT bike ....

I use these on my TT bike with their counter part base bars ....wait and get the extra 40-50 quid together ....

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=26977

Biker Joe

blorg

Does anyone have a view on whether TT-specific base bars have any benefit over standard drops+aerobars? Presuming everything else is the same, e.g. on a road geometry bike. As far as I can make out they would only get a small amount of bar (e.g. the drop bit) out of the wind, there wouldn't be any other advantage? I would tend to stay in the aero bars 100% of the time except severe cornering (which means I would be off them once on an out and back course.)

This sort of thing:

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

Does anyone have a view on whether TT-specific base bars have any benefit over standard drops+aerobars?

Where are you planning to hang your brifters? Or is this for your fixie? :pac:

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

Where are you planning to hang your brifters? Or is this for your fixie? :pac:

For the fixie, would get new brake levers. Don't think it would be worth the effort on the road bike to be swapping gear shifters as well. To be honest I don't think it is worth the effort for the fixie either, I am just curious as to whether the TT-specific base bar has a benefit and if so what is the benefit. Is it just that it gets a small amount of bar out of the wind and you could never use the drops on TT bars anyway (as you have the aero extensions.)

Home:Ballyhoura

I have these Deda Parabolica Due (double bend) clip-on TT bars. They are available in a straight bar and single/riser bend versions also. I like them a lot, they are very adjustable, light and good looking (see picture here of single bend version in real life!). Best of all is they are very cheap (considering I paid €40 for them on Ribble a while back) and comfortable. The only complaints I would have is that the pads are a bit high up off the bars (no higher than most clip on TT bars I've seen) and result in not such a low aerodynamic position, and secondly that they are a bit fiddely especially when taking them on and off every week.

Something like this where the pads are basically resting on the bars is a very good idea in my opinion, while the extensions originate from under the handlebar.

Here is one option I really fancy myself and here is a chart of all the Oval Concepts products and build options!

Good luck making your mind up, I probably confused you more than anything! Haha

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

I am just curious as to whether the TT-specific base bar has a benefit and if so what is the benefit. Is it just that it gets a small amount of bar out of the wind and you could never use the drops on TT bars anyway (as you have the aero extensions.)

I think it's just a case of a clean sheet design from a different starting point. If you have aero bars, you want bar-end shifters, and the drops/brake levers on road bars would be in a stupid position anyway.

Can you imagine using this with drop handlebars instead of bullhorns?



Go on, buy a TT bike. You know it makes sense.

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

Can you imagine using this with drop handlebars instead of bullhorns?

Pretty much, that is effectively what high-end track bikes look like.



I can't justify getting a dedicated TT bike. If I go under the hour on aero bars I might consider it. I imagine we are a some time off that point yet. I would get a pointy hat first I reckon.

Raam

I wonder if I am limited in choice by my current bars. At the moment I have these: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=28775

shaungil

Raam,
Thin end of the wedge re purchase of a TT bike for you I reckon. I've used clip on on the road bike for 6 years mainly cos I'm too miserable to splash out on a TT bike.
Yeah it's a bit of a pain having to change gears and coming up slightly but yo can do it and stay in position. I manged an Ironman doing it this way but for 5 1/2 hours I was happy to get out of aero every so often.
Having see your legs though would some of these http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/3008250/c_1/1%7Ccategory_root%7CSports+and+leisure%7C14573169/c_2/2%7Ccat_14573169%7CHome+gym+equipment%7C14573337/c_3/3%7Ccat_14573337%7CWeights+and+dumbbells%7C14573355.htm might not be any harm to work on the leg guns.:)

BTW would you mind bringing those lights again and I will borrow this time as we're doing some night work on Friday.

Shaun

Raam

shaungil wrote: »

Raam,
Thin end of the wedge re purchase of a TT bike for you I reckon. I've used clip on on the road bike for 6 years mainly cos I'm too miserable to splash out on a TT bike.
Yeah it's a bit of a pain having to change gears and coming up slightly but yo can do it and stay in position. I manged an Ironman doing it this way but for 5 1/2 hours I was happy to get out of aero every so often.
Having see your legs though would some of these http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/3008250/c_1/1%7Ccategory_root%7CSports+and+leisure%7C14573169/c_2/2%7Ccat_14573169%7CHome+gym+equipment%7C14573337/c_3/3%7Ccat_14573337%7CWeights+and+dumbbells%7C14573355.htm might not be any harm to work on the leg guns.:)

BTW would you mind bringing those lights again and I will borrow this time as we're doing some night work on Friday.

Shaun

Oooooh harsh!

Yup, will bring the lights.

tunney

blorg wrote: »

Does anyone have a view on whether TT-specific base bars have any benefit over standard drops+aerobars? Presuming everything else is the same, e.g. on a road geometry bike. As far as I can make out they would only get a small amount of bar (e.g. the drop bit) out of the wind, there wouldn't be any other advantage? I would tend to stay in the aero bars 100% of the time except severe cornering (which means I would be off them once on an out and back course.)

This sort of thing:

HAHAHAHA - maybe if I hadn't got so much abuse for being a triathlete I'd help

Raam

tunney wrote: »

HAHAHAHA - maybe if I hadn't got so much abuse for being a triathlete I'd help

C'mon man-bra-man, out with the advice...

tunney

blorg wrote: »

Does anyone have a view on whether TT-specific base bars have any benefit over standard drops+aerobars? Presuming everything else is the same, e.g. on a road geometry bike. As far as I can make out they would only get a small amount of bar (e.g. the drop bit) out of the wind, there wouldn't be any other advantage? I would tend to stay in the aero bars 100% of the time except severe cornering (which means I would be off them once on an out and back course.)

This sort of thing:

Thats not an aero base bar, I don't know what it is.

These bars have an aero base bar
http://www.hedcycling.com/aerobars/corsair_aerobar.asp

Unless you are going to completely changed your cockpit then just go with some clip ons, all that *really* matters is the position.

A guy I know turned up to a 25 mile TT in the UK on a road bike with box wheels and clip ons and a normal helmet. The TT scene in the UK is huge, all the guys had P3c with wheels that pushed the CTC limits and full aero rigs, aero helmets the huge lot. He spanked them all by minutes. They were disgusted but they didn't know he is a 2012 hopeful for triathlon, its all about the engine really.

tunney

Basically unless you are going to splash the cash and go with an aero rig, throw on some clip ons and raise the saddle a little bit. you'll never be as fast as someone on an aero rig though.

ednwireland

tunney wrote: »

Thats not an aero base bar, I don't know what it is.

These bars have an aero base bar
http://www.hedcycling.com/aerobars/corsair_aerobar.asp

Unless you are going to completely changed your cockpit then just go with some clip ons, all that *really* matters is the position.

A guy I know turned up to a 25 mile TT in the UK on a road bike with box wheels and clip ons and a normal helmet. The TT scene in the UK is huge, all the guys had P3c with wheels that pushed the CTC limits and full aero rigs, aero helmets the huge lot. He spanked them all by minutes. They were disgusted but they didn't know he is a 2012 hopeful for triathlon, its all about the engine really.

reminds me of a guy i used to know who raced mtb's turned up on his gary fisher top end mtb with aero bars and think they were disgusted that he came top 5, dont think it met rtcc regs but he used to enjoy annoying them !

Tau

tunney wrote: »

Basically unless you are going to splash the cash and go with an aero rig, throw on some clip ons and raise the saddle a little bit. you'll never be as fast as someone on an aero rig though.

Thinking of getting clip ons myself and I'm quite interested in this - why would you raise the saddle a bit? (how much is a bit?)

tunney

Tau wrote: »

Thinking of getting clip ons myself and I'm quite interested in this - why would you raise the saddle a bit? (how much is a bit?)

or is it drop the saddle........... it changes your position alot (obviously) and you recruit different muscles.

Can't remember what I do. only race with Road and clip ons about twice a year and I usually forget to tweak the saddle setup.

Billy Whizz

You'd typically move the saddle forward so you can get down on the aerobars. Of course this changes your hip angle in relation to the cranks so raising the saddle a touch and pointing the nose down (NB not everyone agrees with the nose down) will help you replicate your "neutral" position.

blorg

Raam wrote: »

I wonder if I am limited in choice by my current bars. At the moment I have these: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=28775

Any clip ons will have to go on the central round section so I imagine it will depend how much room there is there. I have these Ritchey bars which are also somewhat shaped outside the center section but there is enough space in the round section to get the clip ons on. Note with carbon bars you need to make sure the bars are sold as clip-on compatible, I believe they reinforce the carbon in some way around where you clamp the clip ons.



@tunney- pointy hat worthwhile? This is all about bang for the buck.

Lumen

tunney wrote: »

or is it drop the saddle........... it changes your position alot (obviously) and you recruit different muscles.

Can't remember what I do. only race with Road and clip ons about twice a year and I usually forget to tweak the saddle setup.

From what I've read/watched....

If you're only doing the odd TT, you should keep your existing saddle position, and site your aerobars such that your upper body position is the same as when you use the drops.

If you're going to be regularly training on aerobars, you should bring your saddle forward between 8mm-12mm and raise the saddle to compensate (about half as much, can't quite remember), such that your leg angles are unchanged.

You may get improved power from raising the saddle, but if so that's not a TT-specific setup change, you should keep it permanently.

Be extremely careful when changing saddle position as you can do yourself an injury - a few mm at a time is best, with a few rides in between.

Several boardsies (including myself) can testify to the problems caused by rushing changes.

edit: sorry Tunney, re-reading my post looks like I'm lecturing you, but I'm just chucking my oar in

Murph100

Those HED Clip-ons look interesting & pretty light too, flip up rests and carbon extensions for £200.

http://www.hedcycling.com/aerobars/clip_lite.asp

biker_joe

Raam
You see what you have started !!!

It is all about the having the engine, but having the right tools to build the engine can be very important too .....

Biker_Joe

Lumen

Murph100 wrote: »

Those HED Clip-ons look interesting & pretty light too, flip up rests and carbon extensions for £200.

Sexy, but reach adjustment is presumably by chopping down the extensions, which is a bit scary.

It does also state "Paired with cowhorns, the Flip Lite makes a very light aerobar setup for a dedicated TT bike."

Other than the reach issue and the eye-watering cost, I'm struggling to see why they're inappropriate for a road bike.

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

Other than the reach issue and the eye-watering cost, I'm struggling to see why they're inappropriate for a road bike.

They suggest them for a road bike, you can use clip ons either on a road bike or paired with a TT base bar on a dedicated TT bike.

It will transform your everyday road bike into a machine worthy of competing against the clock.

I don't think chopping the extensions is really as scary as you think, no more than chopping a steerer tube which we are all used to.

Lumen

To widen the discussion...

Most people don't realize that a nonaero helmet creates four times the drag of a nonaero wheelset. So you can spend two thousand dollars on a wheelset, or spend two hundred on a helmet and be faster. How you put your race number on matters more than having an aero wheel; today, we glued on our numbers to get them to fit flatter. Then there's water bottle placement: On a round-tubed frame, having a bottle on your seat tube is more aerodynamic than not having one at all, and it's much more aero than putting it on the down tube. And wearing gloves in a time trial will slow you down more than using a nonaero front wheel.

edit: and more here. Conclusion: if you chuck all the equipment at it, you'll do 40km TT in 0:55 rather than 1:00.

blorg

I am currently using these (borrowed from daymobrew):



Think the main thing I would like is something lower. Maybe with an option of very slightly shortening the reach. To be honest I don't think I need flip up pads at all, they don't sit on a part of the bar I otherwise use even climbing.

Then What about all the various shapes- straight, S bend, J bend, lazy S, etc. Would be keen on something that I could leave on the bike for training spins in a bunch etc. so "draft legal" would be good in terms of accident safety (obviously would not use them in a bunch.) I know I would have to take them off for races but not many of them left this season.

@Raam- one key thing about aero bars now that I recall: don't get out of the saddle while on them. You will probably discover why for yourself when you do it instinctively

blorg

@Lumen- I had read that about the benefits of a pointy hat, didn't realise it was that much more beneficial over an aero wheelset though.

Also was aware of the idea that a water bottle on the seattube was actually beneficial... thought it also applied to the downtube but I may be wrong.

tunney

blorg wrote: »

I am currently using these (borrowed from daymobrew):



Think the main thing I would like is something lower. Maybe with an option of very slightly shortening the reach. To be honest I don't think I need flip up pads at all, they don't sit on a part of the bar I otherwise use even climbing.

Then What about all the various shapes- straight, S bend, J bend, lazy S, etc. Would be keen on something that I could leave on the bike for training spins in a bunch etc. so "draft legal" would be good in terms of accident safety (obviously would not use them in a bunch.) I know I would have to take them off for races but not many of them left this season.

@Raam- one key thing about aero bars now that I recall: don't get out of the saddle while on them. You will probably discover why for yourself when you do it instinctively

I have a spare set of those bars in the shed gathering dust. Going for 20 yoyos o.n.o.

pgibbo

biker_joe wrote: »

yea, I agree I would try get a set which you could later use with a base bar setup ..... I don't like the loop setup cos I think you get a flatter back by going lower with ordinary non looped clip-ons ..... plus using a non loopy setup will be easier when ( if ) you transition to a full TT bike ....

I use these on my TT bike with their counter part base bars ....wait and get the extra 40-50 quid together ....

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=26977

Biker Joe

+1

I have these on my bike and find them very comfortable. I got them from my LBS and he fitted me for them too for the same price they are on CRC. Might be worth a trip to a LBS to price them.

Murph100

Whatever about ridin' bling aero wheelset, you'd wanna be damn sure of your abilities whilst wearing a TT helmet ! :pac:

blorg wrote: »

@Lumen- I had read that about the benefits of a pointy hat, didn't realise it was that much more beneficial over an aero wheelset though.

blorg

Murph100 wrote: »

Whatever about ridin' bling aero wheelset, you'd wanna be damn sure of your abilities whilst wearing a TT helmet ! :pac:

I'll take anything I can get, and as pointed out a TT helmet is a lot cheaper than an aero wheelset. I've seen them for under £50 in the sales, will be keeping an eye out.

The current ranking in my head would go something like this in order:

- Training
- Rider position
- Proper pacing
- Aerobars
- Pointy hat

... what can we add on to this list?

Raam

blorg wrote: »

I'll take anything I can get, and as pointed out a TT helmet is a lot cheaper than an aero wheelset. I've seen them for under £50 in the sales, will be keeping an eye out.

The current ranking in my head would go something like this in order:

- Training
- Rider position
- Proper pacing
- Aerobars
- Pointy hat

... what can we add on to this list?

TT bike

Lumen

As an aside, my power for my 1:09 40km TT was 246W, with clip-on aerobars, which was 35kph average.

In that bikeradar article they got 40kph from 268W with clip-ons on a normal road bike with a normal helmet.

There is absolutely no way I would have added 5kph with another 22W, rolling terrain or not, which indicates that my position is probably completely crap.

So I'd probably stick position above training, although the two are obviously linked.

Murph100

Even more data :

http://www.analyticcycling.com/RiderAeroStudy.html

blorg wrote: »

I'll take anything I can get, and as pointed out a TT helmet is a lot cheaper than an aero wheelset. I've seen them for under £50 in the sales, will be keeping an eye out.

The current ranking in my head would go something like this in order:

- Training
- Rider position
- Proper pacing
- Aerobars
- Pointy hat

... what can we add on to this list?

Gaffer taping yer tackle to the seat tube ?

petethedrummer

Raam wrote: »

TT bike

Skinsuit

Raam

petethedrummer wrote: »

Skinsuit

Jeebus, how did we forget that one! Put that at the top of the list, quick!

tunney

Lumen wrote: »

As an aside, my power for my 1:09 40km TT was 246W, with clip-on aerobars, which was 35kph average.

In that bikeradar article they got 40kph from 268W with clip-ons on a normal road bike with a normal helmet.

There is absolutely no way I would have added 5kph with another 22W, rolling terrain or not, which indicates that my position is probably completely crap.

So I'd probably stick position above training, although the two are obviously linked.

My emperical testing has said 265watts for 40kph but this is on full aero rig with a moderate position, could go lower but I lack the flexiblity to maintain power generation.

But this will change of course based on rider profile.

shaungil

Raam grab those aeros from Tunney, they're a bargain and you'll see the difference pretty quickly.
I pop mine on and off regularly and don't adjust the position and while it hurts my hammers up into the glutes if I go balls out without having done a few sessions (Swords 25mile TT a prime example of this) it generally is fine. Re gear changes I generally like to strech a wee bit when I change gears and often get out of the saddle.
I've old rugby injuries that flare up in my shoulder and neck which tend to be exacerbated by long aero stints especially cos you don't have the flex in your arms to absorb the crappy Irish roads it goes stright into your shoulders. Also you're looking up a lot more.
I do not have an extreme position btw. Some Tri guys bikes I've gone on their noses are nearly on the front wheel. I guess you'd get used to it but not for me.
I also think TT is the truest from of who is the best natural cyclist. No drafting or sitting on for a sprint. Is unbelievably painful (or should be) and generally you can't use adrenalin to for example chase a break as per bunch cycling. If someone does not cross the line with out dried snot and foam all over their face they haven't tried.

Raam

Right so, Tunney, could we hook up to see if the bars fit my road bike?

Murph100

Dont you have to move your saddle forward ( a lot ) when using clip ons ?

blorg

I actually already have a skinsuit (tri suit!) although not sure it is legal outside Boards events or triathlons (no sleeves.)

Personally I have not moved my saddle at all and still find the clip ons very beneficial.

@tunney- I will take those bars if Raam doesn't (damn didn't read this quick enough.)

Murph100

AH ! Just a thought, given the steeper seatube angle on TT bikes, moving the saddle forward and using a 0 setback seatpost on a road bike might help open up your diaphragm a bit and lessen then impact on breathing, ie get you close to a TT bike position. No ? Yes ? Maybe ?

blorg

I have seen suggestions that moving forward makes sense all right. I left the saddle where it was mainly as that was what I was used to in training and so wasn't sure if it was a good idea to vary it for the events if I had not trained that way before.

I have also have done some longer cycles with them, including a 150km down to Leitrim and wanted everything else to be in the same relative position but actually ended up being on the aero bars for much of that 150km. Similarly had them for the Martin Early on my fixie and used them to get down to it and to chase when I was dropped on the very steep hill/descent. So that was a 167km ride where I wanted the rest of my bars to be where they normally are relatively speaking.

I did drop the bars as much as possible when I put the bars on my fixie- think that was about 20mm (stem from over to under the spacers, think it actually works better there anyway.) Mean to get a proper fit done.

Lumen

Murph100 wrote: »

Dont you have to move your saddle forward ( a lot ) when using clip ons ?

Not if the clip-ons fit properly. You might choose to move the saddle forward, but the same goes for what I posted above about moving the saddle up - don't do it unless you are regularly training like that.

Murph100

Sorted on the pointy helmet front, cant wait to finish me frosties :

http://velonews.com/photo/28601


and pure inspiration :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JtZkNXfes4

blorg

CRC actually have several pointy hats reduced to only £45- only in size small though.