The Irish Firearm Custody Order of August 1972

david5624

I am looking for an update on developments to the The Irish Firearm Custody Order of August 1972. I believe it was successfully challenged in 2004, insofar as the original order was limited to a month not 32 years+.

My Grandfather had 3 guns confiscated at the time and two others not subject to the order were bequeathed to my father and subsequently by him to me. I had been previously told that they were sitting in a barrel of oil in the Phoenix Park.

Before I ring Garda HQ in the Phoenix Park, I wonder had any one information on this subject. I would be interested in them as antiques/collectibles at this stage.

TIA

David

Sparks

You might be a wee bit behind the times there David

Fast summary:
The 1972 order ended in 1972.
The policy to not reissue licences for rifles over .22 and pistols was relaxed a bit in the mid-90s to allow rifles up to .270 winchester; then overturned in 2004 following a high court case. As promised in 1972 by the DoJ, following the overturning, the law was rewritten in the Criminal Justice Act of 2006 (which started life in 2004) and that act completely rewrote the bulk of the firearms acts; then the most recent change, the Criminal Justice (Misc.Provisions) Act 2009 banned handguns over .22 calibre that weren't already licenced.

Read the "Target Pistols Return to Ireland", "Criminal Justice Bill 2004", "Criminal Justice Act 2006", "Criminal Justice Bill 2009" and "Firearms Acts" threads for more details.

BornToKill

david5624 wrote: »

My Grandfather had 3 guns confiscated at the time ... I would be interested in them as antiques/collectibles at this stage.

TIA

David

What type of guns? If you can license them you can get them back. You'll need to contact the Guards and you may need to establish that they belonged to your grandfather and you have claim to their ownership.

Thoie

I still have the receipts for my grandfather's guns. I have no interest in getting a license, but would like to get the guns back in some way they could never be shot again. How likely is this to happen? Would I have to apply for a license (unlikely to get one as I don't really have room for a gun safe, and no interest in spending money on one).

david5624

I doubt I would get a license for the Luger Pistol or the Thompson machine gun. However they both had an interesting history and I would be willing to have them "fixed" so that they could not be used again but more of a collectible item or nostalgic re inheritance. I suppose the .303 rifle would be a problem still, so perhaps no value as such. It sounds from the replies I should give HQ a ring and take it from there.

David

BornToKill

Thoie wrote: »

I have no interest in getting a license, but would like to get the guns back in some way they could never be shot again.

david5624 wrote: »

I would be willing to have them "fixed" so that they could not be used again but more of a collectible item or nostalgic re inheritance.

Sounds like both of you are talking about having them deactivated. You could do that and then hold the deactivated guns on the basis of an authorisation from your Superintendent (which would be free). I think the army is storing the balance of the 1972 guns for the guards but it'd be the guards you approach with an enquiry.

rrpc

david5624 wrote: »

I doubt I would get a license for the Luger Pistol or the Thompson machine gun. However they both had an interesting history and I would be willing to have them "fixed" so that they could not be used again but more of a collectible item or nostalgic re inheritance. I suppose the .303 rifle would be a problem still, so perhaps no value as such. It sounds from the replies I should give HQ a ring and take it from there.

David

You could get a licence for the .303 provided you were either a member of a target shooting club where you could use it or you were a deer hunter.

Grizzly 45

Maybe even the Thompson,if it is permantly reworked to semi auto only by a professional gunsmith,or company that does these convesions.It would be a restricted firearm as well,but what a nice piece.
Hope they wernt stored as you describe...It would have played havoc with the woodwork.:eek:

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

You could get a licence for the .303 provided you were either a member of a target shooting club where you could use it or you were a deer hunter.

And to be honest, there's more learnt from using the .303 to figure out what it was like for great-granddad or whomever, than there'd be from hanging it on the wall...

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

And to be honest, there's more learnt from using the .303 to figure out what it was like for great-granddad or whomever, than there'd be from hanging it on the wall...

A sentimental attachment there Sparks.

fat-tony

david5624 wrote: »

I doubt I would get a license for the Luger Pistol or the Thompson machine gun. However they both had an interesting history and I would be willing to have them "fixed" so that they could not be used again but more of a collectible item or nostalgic re inheritance. I suppose the .303 rifle would be a problem still, so perhaps no value as such. It sounds from the replies I should give HQ a ring and take it from there.

David

David, It's certainly worth it to drop a line to the firearms section in the Park, giving details of your grandfather's address at the time when they were taken into "temporary" custody, plus receipt details etc. You can ask to call to the offices in the Park to inspect the condition of the firearms. I did this before applying for certs for my father's pistols. The .303 rifle should not be that much of a problem if you wanted to actually use it as a target rifle. There are a number of people shooting "vintage" and collector's firearms in Midlands.

david5624

Appreciate the feedback. I spoke with Garda HQ and they advised I write to the local Garda station where the firearms were taken into custody first with the details who will in turn forward their records to HQ who can attempt to locate the items in question. David

Thoie

david5624 wrote: »

Appreciate the feedback. I spoke with Garda HQ and they advised I write to the local Garda station where the firearms were taken into custody first with the details who will in turn forward their records to HQ who can attempt to locate the items in question. David

Did they make any comment at all as to whether they still have some guns (I know they wouldn't know about yours specifically without details)?

rrpc

Thoie wrote: »

Did they make any comment at all as to whether they still have some guns (I know they wouldn't know about yours specifically without details)?

I believe there may be as many as three thousand still in custody.

david5624

They said that they were most likely in storage in Athlone. (Army I suppose as mentioned by Born to kill earlier) I can advise how I get on if there is any interest. David

Grizzly 45

Please do...I,for one would be well intrested.

Rovi

For your education and entertainment, here's the original Statutory Instrument:
S.I. No. 187/1972 — Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order, 1972.

Dessie O'Mally wrote:

S.I. No. 187/1972:

FIREARMS (TEMPORARY CUSTODY) ORDER, 1972.

FIREARMS (TEMPORARY CUSTODY) ORDER, 1972.

I, DESMOND O'MALLEY, Minister for Justice, being satisfied that it is necessary to do so in the interests of the public safety, hereby, in exercise of the powers conferred on me by section 4 (1) of the Firearms Act, 1964 (No. 1 of 1964), order as follows:

1. This Order may be cited as the Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order, 1972.

2. This Order shall remain in force for a period of one month.

3. Every person residing in the State and having possession of a firearm or ammunition of any of the classes specified in the Schedule to this Order shall surrender it to the Garda Síochána on or before the 5th day of August, 1972.

Schedule.

1. Pistols and revolvers and ammunition therefor.

2. Rifled firearms of a calibre exceeding .22 inches and ammunition therefor.


GIVEN under my Official Seal this 2nd day of August, 1972.

DESMOND O'MALLEY,

Minister for Justice.

EXPLANATORY NOTE.

This Order requires every person residing in the State to surrender to the Garda Síochána on or before 5th August, 1972, any revolver or pistol or any rifled firearm of a calibre in excess of .22 inches in his possession, together with any ammunition therefor. The Order will remain in force for one month.

Keep a close eye out in case the current Minister gets any bright ideas.

rrpc

Rovi wrote: »

For your education and entertainment, here's the original Statutory Instrument:

Keep a close eye out in case the current Minister gets any bright ideas.

Well don't be giving him any then please :eek:

Rovi

rrpc wrote: »

Well don't be giving him any then please :eek:

Ah, it'll be okay, I doubt they let him near the Tipp-Ex in the Department anyway.

pajero2005

Pardon my ignorance here, but what was the reason for the Firearm Custody Order 1972?

rrpc

pajero2005 wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance here, but what was the reason for the Firearm Custody Order 1972?

I'll give you a hint. What was happening politically around that time?

Rovi

pajero2005 wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance here, but what was the reason for the Firearm Custody Order 1972?

There's an academic career for an historian to go into this in detail, but in a nutshell (and VERY roughly, I am NOT an historian!):
The Troubles had really kicked-off in Northern Ireland, with Bloody Sunday earlier that year, and internment introduced the year previous.
Anti-British sentiment was running very high, with the British Embassy being burned down on the day of the Bloody Sunday victims' funerals.
Garda Richard Fallon had been murdered by members of Saor Éire during the course of a bank robbery in 1970, and the Arms Crisis had shaken the Jack Lynch Fianna Fail government, leading many people to fear that The Troubles were about to spill over the border into the Republic.
There was wild talk at the time about a 'citizen army', armed with civilian firearms, heading North to defend Catholic enclaves, and there were stories of a huge surge in ammunition sales.

The 'Temporary Custody Order' was proposed (and accepted by most people) as a measure to help prevent what appeared at the time to be an inexorable slide towards bloodshed on the streets and possibly even a civil war.

pajero2005

Thanks to rrpc and Rovi. I figured it was a decision based on the political standings of the time, but wondered why so many guns were still in the custody of The Gardai. Is this down to people not reclaiming them? Seems a little odd.

Rovi

pajero2005 wrote: »

Thanks to rrpc and Rovi. I figured it was a decision based on the political standings of the time, but wondered why so many guns were still in the custody of The Gardai. Is this down to people not reclaiming them? Seems a little odd.

I suspect that in many cases, the original owners of the firearms are deceased, and their descendants/heirs simply don't know the firearms exist.

rrpc

pajero2005 wrote: »

Thanks to rrpc and Rovi. I figured it was a decision based on the political standings of the time, but wondered why so many guns were still in the custody of The Gardai. Is this down to people not reclaiming them? Seems a little odd.

Many people who's firearms were surrendered have since passed away. It then requires that their descendants (a) are aware of the situation and (b) are interested enough to follow it up.

In the case of (a), being aware means firstly being aware that there were firearms handed up and secondly that there's the possibility of licensing them again. Neither of those can be taken for granted. Someone who was 5 years old in 1972, is in their 40's now and might never have known that their parent had a firearm or that it was surrendered.

Of course there might not even be descendants, or they may no longer live in this country.

Edit: Just to add that two members of our club are people who had firearms surrendered in 1972. In one case the 7.62 target rifle has now been released and sold on to another guy and in the other case, the .22 pistol has been relicensed and is back being used by its original owner. In a third case, the owner's son is a member of the club and his father's old air pistol is now on the club authorisation: fat-tony has already posted on this thread.

Snap with Rovi again

fat-tony

The "Temporary" Custody Order effectively lasted 32 years to 2004 after a series of court cases which started the return of pistols. In my particular situation my father had died in the interim and except for the fact that I recalled the Gardai visiting the house back in 1972 to seize the pistols, they would still be lying in the firearms stores. That said, my father's pistols were well looked after, with the metal parts coated in grease.

Rovi

I'm pretty sure I talked about this on here before, but surely the Gardai (or DoJ, or whoever) has records for the firearms still in their custody?
All these firearms are still the personal property of named individuals, so they can't be destroyed; perhaps in due course they may make an effort to contact the owners or their descendants to sort out what to do with them.

rrpc

Rovi wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I talked about this on here before, but surely the Gardai (or DoJ, or whoever) has records for the firearms still in their custody?
All these firearms are still the personal property of named individuals, so they can't be destroyed; perhaps in due course they may make an effort to contact the owners or their descendants to sort out what to do with them.

I would say that it's as difficult for them as it is for the owners or descendants.

Imagine the difficulty of tracking down, effectively the next generation of people who surrendered their firearms?

Then there's the whole other issue of telling people they can reclaim their property and at the same time saying that they have to jump through a whole bunch of hoops in order to do that.

Apart from the philosophical question of whether the Gardai want them to be relicensed again. :rolleyes:

Rovi

rrpc wrote: »

I would say that it's as difficult for them as it is for the owners or descendants.

Imagine the difficulty of tracking down, effectively the next generation of people who surrendered their firearms?

Then there's the whole other issue of telling people they can reclaim their property and at the same time saying that they have to jump through a whole bunch of hoops in order to do that.

It won't happen under the current financial constraints, but a letter to the listed owner of each firearm would find either the owner or their heirs in the majority of cases, I'd expect.

rrpc wrote: »

Apart from the philosophical question of whether the Gardai want them to be relicensed again. :rolleyes:

Certainly, I doubt such a thing would happen under the current Minister, but you never know how things might pan out in the future.

david5624

I was fortunate in 1972 to see the firearms before they were taken into custody. My grandfather kept them in as new condition. Since posting the original message, I am now looking forward to potentially seeing them again. If they could tell stories, I think the three went something like this from recollection....

The Thompson submachine gun...

Extract from this article....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_submachine_gun

"Thompson shipped some of the first batches to Ireland. These were acquired by the Irish Republican Army and were used in the stages of the Irish War of Independence and Civil War."

On the Luger think U boats off the west coast during WWII

and on the .303 think sharks off the west coast.

Ah the nostalgia of it all.

More anon,,

Sparks

fat-tony wrote: »

The "Temporary" Custody Order effectively lasted 32 years

Gosh, how I hate it when people say that.
The TCO lasted as long as it was allowed to last (ie. One month). It ran out on September 5, 1972.
What kept the pistols away from their owners was not the TCO, it was the DoJ/Gardai policy of not issueing licences.
If they'd tried to use the TCO the way people talk about it, it wouldn't have made it out of the worst District Court going, let alone the High Court.
I know it seems like a small point, but how many times did people listen to the tall tales of the TCO and then go demand an answer from the Minister as to why it hadn't been rescinded, thus giving him an easy out on the question, making the TD that asked it look foolish, and burning yet another bridge for anyone trying to talk to the PTB?
Gah...

Thoie

The reason I know about it (I wasn't born in 72) was that I came across the "butt"s (? - the wooden bit where you hold it) of various guns in the attic at some stage when my granny was moving. Some of the wooden bits have metal plaques engraved with various bits of family history "Awarded to so-n-so for such-n-such, dated..."

When I asked where the rest of the bits were, I then learned about the 1972 thing. Further clearance of the house found the original receipts (which are probably historical documents in their own right - I should really scan them in somewhere). The receipts are filed away safely, and the bits are in the attic at home (much to the consternation of a plumber who went up to do something with the tank in the attic ).

I have no interest in the guns as firearms (I can barely manage a wiimote, and shotguns just leave me with giant bruises), but think the family history is worth keeping.

Rovi

Thoie wrote: »

The reason I know about it (I wasn't born in 72) was that I came across the "butt"s (? - the wooden bit where you hold it) of various guns in the attic at some stage when my granny was moving. Some of the wooden bits have metal plaques engraved with various bits of family history "Awarded to so-n-so for such-n-such, dated..."

When I asked where the rest of the bits were, I then learned about the 1972 thing. Further clearance of the house found the original receipts (which are probably historical documents in their own right - I should really scan them in somewhere). The receipts are filed away safely, and the bits are in the attic at home (much to the consternation of a plumber who went up to do something with the tank in the attic ).

I have no interest in the guns as firearms (I can barely manage a wiimote, and shotguns just leave me with giant bruises), but think the family history is worth keeping.

I'd love to see photos/scans of the parts and receipts (with personal data obscured, of course), if you could see your way to doing that sometime.

We could see if we can identify the firearms from the pieces of 'furniture'.

pajero2005

+1 with Rovi. Would love to see a few pictures, if you could?

Thoie

Rovi wrote: »

I'd love to see photos/scans of the parts and receipts (with personal data obscured, of course), if you could see your way to doing that sometime.

We could see if we can identify the firearms from the pieces of 'furniture'.

I can probably get my mother to scan in the receipts and then I can edit them and post up here. The parts will have to wait some time until

a) I'm home
b) My father allows me to go into the attic - he's convinced anyone except him who goes into the attic will immediately come crashing through the ceiling :rolleyes: I've tried explaining that as a real honest grown up with my own home that I'm capable of figuring out the difference between plasterboard and joists, but he doesn't believe me.

fat-tony

Sparks wrote: »

Gosh, how I hate it when people say that.
The TCO lasted as long as it was allowed to last (ie. One month). It ran out on September 5, 1972.
What kept the pistols away from their owners was not the TCO, it was the DoJ/Gardai policy of not issueing licences.
If they'd tried to use the TCO the way people talk about it, it wouldn't have made it out of the worst District Court going, let alone the High Court.
I know it seems like a small point, but how many times did people listen to the tall tales of the TCO and then go demand an answer from the Minister as to why it hadn't been rescinded, thus giving him an easy out on the question, making the TD that asked it look foolish, and burning yet another bridge for anyone trying to talk to the PTB?
Gah...

Ah Sparks - FFS - you know that I know the TCO was not the reason why people didn't get their pistols back. I used the phrase "effectively" to indicate to the poster how long the pistol lockup was in force. I've always put quotes around the "Temporary" part of the order as I well know that it was for one month only!
We are going OTT with this pedantry:D

Grizzly 45

One thing that has always puzzled me about this whole TCO....

Eventually,somone must have realised that the political situation in NI/ROI was going to change for either the better or worse.
For the worse,well it would be understandable that stuff would be never seen again,or there would be stacks of it about after civil war mk2.
So then it would be irrevelant the outcome of the TCO.

Or that some sort of peaceful settlement would be found,[which fortunatly did happen].
But somwhere,somtime, somone in power must have been ,or asked or given with the undertaking of deciding when to hand back all these firearms in storage?? It is sitting in Army barracks and using Govt resources to gaurd.This must be costing money as well,and is a security risk too.So I am amazed some bean counter didnt mention this Govt wastage too in latter years?
If there was such,I would love to know under what conditions, or when would an Irish Govt think it was suitable to re entrust their citzinery with their property?
After all,we only started looking for these types of guns back,when the Ceasefire had been in place for about 10 years,and PIRA,had already made some serious decomissioning efforts..
This is why I think there was such court challanges and the current situation we find ourselves in.Maybe the Govt,did have a timeplan to return these guns,and this upset their plans???
Or[more likely] was it just somthing that was never considerd or going to happen,and just forgotton about thru sucessive govts,and they were then caught on the hop with the 1st court cases?

rrpc

I imagine the cost is negligible, seeing as you're paying the army anyway
The surrendered stuff would probably only take up parts of armouries around the country.

Thoie

Completely irrelevant as I don't want to go shooting, but just reading the TCO again, I wonder what they'd say if you said you wanted the ammo back as well?

"Yes, I want the exact 5 bullets belonging to grandad, go fetch"

Rovi

Thoie wrote: »

Completely irrelevant as I don't want to go shooting, but just reading the TCO again, I wonder what they'd say if you said you wanted the ammo back as well?

"Yes, I want the exact 5 bullets belonging to grandad, go fetch"

Well, I'd hope and expect that each individual's personal property (both the firearm and any ammunition) would be identifiable, so it mightn't be that unreasonable a request.

Of course, you'd need to have a licence for the firearm in question (or another in the same calibre) to take possession of the ammunition.

Sparks

Thoie wrote: »

"Yes, I want the exact 5 bullets belonging to grandad, go fetch"

They had them up until recently at least - there were concerns over stability of the old primers from what I remember, but the firearms and ammunition were still the property of the original owners so they couldn't just dump them.

fat-tony wrote: »

We are going OTT with this pedantry:D

It's not pedantry when lack of attention to detail does damage...

Rovi

david5624 wrote: »

I was fortunate in 1972 to see the firearms before they were taken into custody. My grandfather kept them in as new condition. Since posting the original message, I am now looking forward to potentially seeing them again. If they could tell stories, I think the three went something like this from recollection....

The Thompson submachine gun...

On the subject of your Grandfather's Thompson, don't make any rushed decisions on its future until you've researched all the options.
There's considerable interest in these guns, with a big community of enthusiasts and collectors; have a look here:
Thompson SMG Message Board

Unless the gun has some sentimental value or is tied to interesting family history in which case certainly look into having it deactivated, it might very well be worth your while investigating selling it to a collector somewhere where people can legally possess such things.
Whatever you do, I beg you to please not tell the Gardai to 'do away with it' for you; it'll only end up being smelted or in some super sekret store room to which only the privileged or well connected have access.

Speaking of which...



..., on the above forum, I found THIS THREAD, which contains some very interesting photographs.

G17

Rovi wrote: »

which contains some very interesting photographs.

Bookmarked under porn.

Great find.

Grizzly 45

Plus 1 on that post Rovi.
Well intresting,wonder can any of us natives visit there.
Be abit difficult to sell this as well
The USA is out now since 1986.No more Full auto stuff can be imported.
Looked into getting this converted to semi
in Germany.Thats out as well..The BKA clamped down on any full auto guns that have been converted to semi,even with totally re manufactured parts and recivers.:( Especially Thompsons,they were becoming a great seller last year.They were made up out of demilled GI Thompsons coming out of lend lease in Russia.:eek:
Deact sounds like the only route to go.Damn shame though,If there is some way of getting it kept in semi you would have a fine and valuable rifle,with a story and possiblity of a sale.Rather than a high tech club with a histoy.:(

Bananaman

What the flock is that

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj264/jdice379/Ireland%20Tommy%20Gun/IMG_3767.jpg

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

What the flock is that

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj264/jdice379/Ireland%20Tommy%20Gun/IMG_3767.jpg

B'Man

Funny, I was also intrigued by that one

It looks like quite an old big game rifle. The action is pretty huge, so you'd be talking about something the size of a 600 nitro express, but older obviously.

You'd want to be in the whole of your health to fire it

Rovi

Bananaman wrote: »

What the flock is that

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj264/jdice379/Ireland%20Tommy%20Gun/IMG_3767.jpg

B'Man

rrpc wrote: »

Funny, I was also intrigued by that one

It looks like quite an old big game rifle. The action is pretty huge, so you'd be talking about something the size of a 600 nitro express, but older obviously.

You'd want to be in the whole of your health to fire it

I'm pretty sure it's a punt gun.

If you look at the same gun in another photo:
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj264/jdice379/Ireland%20Tommy%20Gun/IMG_3766.jpg
...you can see a step in the stock which I suspect fits into a socket in the punt.

Traumadoc

Its an anti-tank Mauser

Good luck getting ammo though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13.2_mm_Rifle_Anti-Tank_(Mauser)

Grizzly 45

Nope! It's a Panzer buchse or tank rifle.
Developed by the Germans in WW1 to counter the 1st Gen British tanks in the trenches.Idea being the thicker the plate,the stronger the power behind the bullet to punch thru.Forget about the OUCH factor to the poor sod who has to pull the trigger on it.:eek:It's calibre is somthing up in the old Boyes anti tank rifle ,or the Swedish Lathi.Think they are above 50 cal anyway.
Needless to say it wasnt very effective.So it became a long range sniper rifle,the great granddad of our modern 50 cals.
Now how this ended up in Ireland in the Garda HQ,is anyones guess.
But it must be a story worth hearing.:cool:
SNAP..Trauma doc.Was getting the pics for the post.

Bananaman

rrpc

13.2mm, thought it would be bigger somehow. That's a bit over half an inch, so your 50 cal guess was prretty close Grizzly.

I really would love to know the story behind some of those guns, and especially that one.

Funny enough, I recognised one of the Gardai in the photos. I think I have his phone number.... :eek: