Should Provincial football winners beaten in quarter finals be given a second chance?

Spiritoftheseventies

Given that both Dublin and Mayo, two provincial winners are not now in the All Ireland Ireland series, should winners of the provincial championships be afforded a second chance if they go out in the quarter final.
In other words is the back door system helpful to some teams as we have seen with Kerry and Meath who are allowed to regroup. Given the premise that most teams have a bad day at the office, is the current system working for all teams in the all Ireland series.

Atomic Pineapple

bayviewclose wrote: »

Given that both Dublin and Mayo, two provincial winners are not now in the All Ireland Ireland series, should winners of the provincial championships be afforded a second chance if they go out in the quarter final.
In other words is the back door system helpful to some teams as we have seen with Kerry and Meath who are allowed to regroup. Given the premise that most teams have a bad day at the office, is the current system working for all teams in the all Ireland series.

Personally I think its the best you can get, what way could a provincial winner get a second chance?

A provincial winner will have shown there good enough to win a province and so should be well able to take on a team from the qualifiers.

Of course its unfair if a provincial winner has an off day and loses but I dont see how they would get a second chance?

Should the quarter finals be played on a two legged basis maybe?

Spiritoftheseventies

draffodx wrote: »

Personally I think its the best you can get, what way could a provincial winner get a second chance?

A provincial winner will have shown there good enough to win a province and so should be well able to take on a team from the qualifiers.

Of course its unfair if a provincial winner has an off day and loses but I dont see how they would get a second chance?

Should the quarter finals be played on a two legged basis maybe?

No but think if Meath and Kerry are allowed to have a bad day at the office and get game time under their belt in the mean time, there seems to be an imbalance there.

John The Bad

YES.

Some how this must be fixed. If there was a way to bring the qualifiers down to two teams; then let the 4 provincial champions play each other; then the two provincial losers play the two teams left from the qualifiers; then the two winners from this round play the winning provincial champions in the semi-finals.

Of course, the other option is to scrap the provinces altogether but do we want to do this?

eagle eye

NO.

The system isn't working though. I started a thread with a new type of format but nobody even replied to it. I think it all has to be changed.

themandan6611

The AI run along the lines of a group stage championship system would be better and fairer, it would allow teams to have a bad day but still have a chance and would reward the most consistent teams. Winning a leinster, connacht etc means less each year

Something along the lines of the c.l with 5-6 teams in each group with the top 2/3 going into a knockout stage - along with all teams getting game time it would also allow all teams to have a level playing field in terms of gaps between matches.

John The Bad

themandan6611 wrote: »

The AI run along the lines of a group stage championship system would be better and fairer, it would allow teams to have a bad day but still have a chance and would reward the most consistent teams. Winning a leinster, connacht etc means less each year

Something along the lines of the c.l with 5-6 teams in each group with the top 2/3 going into a knockout stage - along with all teams getting game time it would also allow all teams to have a level playing field in terms of gaps between matches.

You might need to lose the league to do this.

Spiritoftheseventies

John The Bad wrote: »

YES.

Some how this must be fixed. If there was a way to bring the qualifiers down to two teams; then let the 4 provincial champions play each other; then the two provincial losers play the two teams left from the qualifiers; then the two winners from this round play the winning provincial champions in the semi-finals.

Of course, the other option is to scrap the provinces altogether but do we want to do this?

Yes I think a champions league format the best. With teams seeded like they are in Champions league. Therefore Tyrone Kerry Cork and whoever anybody agrees is fourth would not be pooled together. eight groups. four pots made up of number one, two, three and four seeds. I think it is the way forward.

Atomic Pineapple

John The Bad wrote: »

You might need to lose the league to do this.

I agree, thats basically the league. It would never work over a summer championship would it?

BayViewClose wrote:

No but think if Meath and Kerry are allowed to have a bad day at the office and get game time under their belt in the mean time, there seems to be an imbalance there.

Well the provincial winners get a decent break whereas the Qualifier teams have a game week on week, theres an imbalance there too.

It worked for Cork and Tyrone but didn't for Dublin and Mayo, Why?

John The Bad

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yes I think a champions league format the best. With teams seeded like they are in Champions league. Therefore Tyrone Kerry Cork and whoever anybody agrees is fourth would not be pooled together. eight groups. four pots made up of number one, two, three and four seeds. I think it is the way forward.

Not so fast lads, in calling for a group stage format, aka Champions League or World Cup. In such a format we will end up with some group matches between two teams in which both are already through to the next round so a win isn't vital, thus resulting in non-competitive football or hurling. That sort of morass is not what I want to see in the GAA championships.

(King Henry just scored a point before 20 seconds!)

I think the current format is good; we just need to figure a way to give a losing provincial champion a second shot.

themandan6611

John The Bad wrote: »

Not so fast lads, in calling for a group stage format, aka Champions League or World Cup. In such a format we will end up with some group matches between two teams in which both are already through to the next round so a win isn't vital, thus resulting in non-competitive football or hurling. That sort of morass is not what I want to see in the GAA championships.

(King Henry just scored a point before 20 seconds!)

I think the current format is good; we just need to figure a way to give a losing provincial champion a second shot.

true, but we are already seening quiet a few non-competitive matches - just look at 2 of the q/f's last week, and dublin's usual hammering of teams in leinster.

you could rectify things by giving the team who wins the group home advantage thereby leaving some incentive.

blinding

Mayo should be given enough chances until everyone else goes home to bed and as mayo are the last team on the field they are given Sam Maguire.

Spiritoftheseventies

draffodx wrote: »

I agree, thats basically the league. It would never work over a summer championship would it?



Well the provincial winners get a decent break whereas the Qualifier teams have a game week on week, theres an imbalance there too.

It worked for Cork and Tyrone but didn't for Dublin and Mayo, Why?

Cork played Donegal. Who are very unpredictable. Cork were always going to win that. Look at meaths run in since losing to Dublin. easy enough. Champions league format at least ensures that the top teams have a better chance of progressing.

Het-Field

The current format is failing. It was articulated that the primary reason for such a move in 2001 was to give smaller counties a second bite at the cherry. This has ensured a devaluation of the provincial championships, gametime advantage, and a chance to try new things for the bigger teams. Provincial champions are not afforded the luxuary.

Spiritoftheseventies

John The Bad wrote: »

Not so fast lads, in calling for a group stage format, aka Champions League or World Cup. In such a format we will end up with some group matches between two teams in which both are already through to the next round so a win isn't vital, thus resulting in non-competitive football or hurling. That sort of morass is not what I want to see in the GAA championships.

(King Henry just scored a point before 20 seconds!)

I think the current format is good; we just need to figure a way to give a losing provincial champion a second shot.

Well to rule that out, the bottom team in each group play off in a relegation play off. Worth examing i think.

John The Bad

bayviewclose wrote: »

Well to rule that out, the bottom team in each group play off in a relegation play off. Worth examing i think.

Relegation to what?

John The Bad

bayviewclose wrote: »

Cork played Donegal. Who are very unpredictable. Cork were always going to win that. Look at meaths run in since losing to Dublin. easy enough. Champions league format at least ensures that the top teams have a better chance of progressing.

The top teams are progressing, the top teams always progress -- that's what it means to be a top team. And Meath's run-in was not so easy. The system works in so far as it does what it sets out to do -- it gives all teams a second chance after losing a match. The qualifers are great. Every year they give a so-called weaker county a run in the championship -- look at Wicklow this year. The only problem is that provincial champions are disadvantaged. Fix that and we'll be sorted. I am not at all keen at the idea of a group stage. Another problem with that format is that after a while smaller counties will find it harder and harder to get to the knock-out stage and we will start seeing the same counties competing this stage.

tomdadude

The usual story.Dublin get hammered so the system needs to be changed.

No.The provincial championships and the All-Ireland championship are all separate competitions.

If any team is beaten in the All Ireland Championship than they're out.The system is fine.People were saying Tyrone, Kerry and Cork were the best teams before the season started and that's the way it's turned out.

The system is fine in that the best teams are in the semi finals.

Spiritoftheseventies

John The Bad wrote: »

The top teams are progressing, the top teams always progress -- that's what it means to be a top team. And Meath's run-in was not so easy. The system works in so far as it does what it sets out to do -- it gives all teams a second chance after losing a match. The qualifers are great. Every year they give a so-called weaker county a run in the championship -- look at Wicklow this year. The only problem is that provincial champions are disadvantaged. Fix that and we'll be sorted. I am not at all keen at the idea of a group stage. Another problem with that format is that after a while smaller counties will find it harder and harder to get to the knock-out stage and we will start seeing the same counties competing this stage.

Well I think what a champions league format does is that the perceived weaker teams dont get a relatively easy pass to to a quarter final by virtue of a kind draw. I think how a team performed over lets day last five years in All Ireland championship should be a good enough measure of seeds.
Admittedly i dont know how much appetite teams will have for playing a league and champions league. It needs working out.
Other idea is merge the provinces. Have a northern and southern conference. Based on geography. I would think it would be a good idea to merge Connaught with Munster to make it more competitive and maybe put a few Leinster teams into Ulster.

John The Bad

tomdadude wrote: »

The usual story.Dublin get hammered so the system needs to be changed.

No.The provincial championships and the All-Ireland championship are all separate competitions.

If any team is beaten in the All Ireland Championship than they're out.The system is fine.People were saying Tyrone, Kerry and Cork were the best teams before the season started and that's the way it's turned out.

The system is fine in that the best teams are in the semi finals.

A good point that and I hadn't thought of it.

Spiritoftheseventies

John The Bad wrote: »

A good point that and I hadn't thought of it.

Dont agree with that. Meath deserved their win today but are they they the fourth best team in the competition?

Pride Fighter

I had a good idea, it was posted in the GAA forum write off thread, I dont know where it is though, I'll post it up later.

Pride Fighter

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I had a good idea, it was posted in the GAA forum write off thread, I dont know where it is though, I'll post it up later.

Found it-

My new Championship idea

So for the Football championships we have had several debates over the years about how the Championship would go. Many pundits believe the Champions league style pool system will give the weaker counties more games to improve at championships and give them home games against big guns, improving the various County board coffers (imagine how packed Aughrim would be if the Dubs were to play Wicklow). Many want to see this implemented and the provincial championships abolished, here is the new idea I came up with.

Keep the provincial championships, but have a Champions league style pool system inside the provincial championship. I propose groups of 3 as it is the most logical, each team plays home and away giving every team at the minimum 4 championships games. Here is my mock draw


Ulster Championship Pool A
Armagh
Antrim
Donegal

Pool B
Fermanagh
Tyrone
Cavan

Pool C
Derry
Monaghan
Down

Winner of each group goes through, in the draw one winner gets a bye to the final while the other 2 play in the semi. The final winner goes through to the All Ireland Semi final, yes, this system would abolish the back door, but as I said, weaker counties will get 2 more games in the Championship

Connacht Pool A
Mayo
Leitrim
Roscommon

Connacht Pool B
Galway
Sligo
New York

As above, winner of each group meets in the Connacht final, Connacht Champion goes to the AI semi final.

Munster Pool A
Tipperary
Limerick
Waterford

Munster Pool B
Cork
Kerry
Clare

As all provinces would be open draws a situation like pool B could happen anywhere. A big gun will go out at the first hurdle, placing more emphasis on the clashes between the 2. Also with a weak pool A a non traditional team will make the final.

Leinster Pool A
Longford
Louth
Carlow

Pool B
Dublin
Meath
Wicklow

Pool C
Wexford
Laois
Offaly

Pool D
Kildare
Westmeath
London

For arithmetic purposes I have moved London from Connacht to Leinster, sure Leinster is the closest province to London, also London could be seen as taking Kilkennys place who have no Football team. As I said earlier could you imagine Aughrim packed to the rafters, could you imagine Croker full for Dublin/Meath and Pairc Tailteann full for the reverse fixture. Winners of each pool in Leinster progress to the semi final with the eventual champion taking Leinsters place in the AI semi final.

Dapos

IMO this is just an excuse used by counties where their teams are just not good enough.

Lets look at the situation we have now. Last four are Tyrone, Cork, Kery and Meath. Two of the four provincal champions, one who are the all-ireland champions, the other all-ireland finalists in 2007, Kerry an all-ireland finalist (and league champions) and meath, a teams who battled hard to get where they are. IMO the top three teams are in the last four and have got to this stage before through the provincal championship route and the back-door. Cream rises to the top! If you gave dublin or Mayo a second chance there is every reason to believe they would still not make it to the final four.

Now Kerry stumbled through the qualifers alright but they are a good team.

I think the current format is fine. I think it could probably do with some tweaking. The big gap between provincal finals and quarter finals needs to be closed a bit.

Another option (which is a bit out there but anyway) would maybe be to have a two game quarter-final, decided on aggrigate. This way the provincal champions would have two games to "show there worth". Not really sure how well it would work though.

Spiritoftheseventies

Pride Fighther am I reading this right. Only one to go through from Cork Kerry and Clare. Can you please clarify?

Pride Fighter

bayviewclose wrote: »

Pride Fighther am I reading this right. Only one to go through from Cork Kerry and Clare. Can you please clarify?

That is a hypothetical Munster draw, with the other 3 teams in Munster group A. The winners of each group play in the final. With the winner being Munster champion, it would be an open draw, so a situation like this year with one of the Munster big 2 not contesting the final and giving someone like a Limerick a chance to win the Munster title.

Spiritoftheseventies

Pride Fighter wrote: »

That is a hypothetical Munster draw, with the other 3 teams in Munster group A. The winners of each group play in the final. With the winner being Munster champion, it would be an open draw, so a situation like this year with one of the Munster big 2 not contesting the final and giving someone like a Limerick a chance to win the Munster title.

Yes you have obviously made an effort here but I think Dapos gets the nod. Home and away for the quarter finals which works for me.

padraig_f

No. Whenever you introduce fudges like the backdoor system, you're always going to get anomalies. To extend the second chance to the provincial winners would be adding another fudge on top of it, and only making things worse if anything.

I think the backdoor system has been a qualified success. It has brought on the weaker counties with extra championship games, but has diminished the status of the provincial finals and led to certain anomalies. If it is to change, I think you need to go with a whole new system.

My preference is:
- round-robin/league for provincial matches (ensure weaker teams get more than one match)
- top 2 of this league play in provincial final
- the 4 provincial winners go into the all-ireland semi-finals (like the old system).

This would ensure weaker counties have multiple championship matches, restore status of provincial finals, and have no inbalances where one team were playing the previous 4 weekends in a row while their opponents were out of action.

Spiritoftheseventies

padraig_f wrote: »

No. Whenever you introduce fudges like the backdoor system, you're always going to get anomalies. To extend the second chance to the provincial winners would be adding another fudge on top of it, and only making things worse if anything.

I think the backdoor system has been a qualified success. It has brought on the weaker counties with extra championship games, but has diminished the status of the provincial finals and led to certain anomalies. If it is to change, I think you need to go with a whole new system.

My preference is:
- round-robin/league for provincial matches (ensure weaker teams get more than one match)
- top 2 of this league play in provincial final
- the 4 provincial winners go into the all-ireland semi-finals (like the old system).

This would ensure weaker counties have multiple championship matches, restore status of provincial finals, and have no inbalances where one team were playing the previous 4 weekends in a row while their opponents were out of action.

whats wrong with home and away for the quarter finals. Obviously it might congest the fixture schedule but i dont see a problem. It ensures everyone gets an extra game. Obviously teams like Tyrone and Kerry might object to having to play an extra game but it at least it would reduce the risk of the one sided games we saw in Kerry Dublin game and Cork Donegal games.

plasmaguy

Serious doubt has been raised this year whether being a provincial champion is a help or a hindrance.

And would you rather have an AI medal in your back pocket or a provincial one?

The lack of competition in Leinster means Dublin are usually untested and don't learn their weaknesses are until it's usually too late and these weaknesses are found out.

The administrators of the GAA have it greatly wrong on the back door system.

You cannot have a competition where there is not a level playing field and where defeated teams are rewarded with another game while provincial champions can be dumped out first time.

It's farcical that one team can win an AI despite losing an earlier match, while another team, provincial champions, can also lose one match and not have a second chance.

Dapos

padraig_f wrote: »

No. Whenever you introduce fudges like the backdoor system, you're always going to get anomalies. To extend the second chance to the provincial winners would be adding another fudge on top of it, and only making things worse if anything.

I think the backdoor system has been a qualified success. It has brought on the weaker counties with extra championship games, but has diminished the status of the provincial finals and led to certain anomalies. If it is to change, I think you need to go with a whole new system.

My preference is:
- round-robin/league for provincial matches (ensure weaker teams get more than one match)
- top 2 of this league play in provincial final
- the 4 provincial winners go into the all-ireland semi-finals (like the old system).

This would ensure weaker counties have multiple championship matches, restore status of provincial finals, and have no inbalances where one team were playing the previous 4 weekends in a row while their opponents were out of action.

One of the benifits i see in the back-door system is it allows more than one good tram from each province progress e.g. cork and kerry in Munster, Tyrone, Armagh (and a number of other ulster teams) in Ulster

Also imo it adds a bit of variety to the championship as teams from different provinces get to play each other before the quarter final stages.