Dilemma

d'Oracle

Having a big problem here.

As most of you will have no clue of, I have been going steadily to the Gym for a good 3 months now, doing Starting Strength.
Im 27 and in reasonable shape.

I may or may not have been a bit pig headed with it.
Perhaps putting weight on the bar when I was getting my 3x5 but not necessarily with tidy technique (in so far as I can tell)

Two weeks ago a niggle became a problem. Elbow and groin.
Elbow was of the tennis variety, not a huge deal, probably aggravated by squatting and cleans.

Groin was something more serious.
A trip to the osteo unveiled a previously unnoticed swayback/Lordosis issue.
Kick 1. the osteo suggested that I don't do weights, cos I have not been doing them all along (since I was 17). Now I didn't take that well.
But he relented and said I would be alright if I went lighter. "Thats cool" I thought, I could just slow down the progress and maybe just cut some weight start over.

Now in the process of researching some other stuff I came across a fitness studio/Perosnal training service who sold some stuff I was interested. In an e-mail conversation, I mentioned that i had been to the Osteo.

As things progressed they asked me to stop in for a consultation. They do keniesological (sp?) examination so I figured what harm.

Kick 2. This guy had a chat with me about what I was doing.
He suggested:
1) That I was way overdoing it by working on 5RM's as a beginner.
2) I should be working with 12-15RM's
3) I should wait a year before doing hypertrophy stuff
4) I should be lifting for about 3 years before I do "power stuff." I.e. Cleans.

I was disgusted.
Later while researching some of his training stuff, I read an article which recommended some stuff that was bad by Rips definitions.

I know I hurt myself, and would like to integrate a wider range of lifts and activities. Hell I want to sort the lordosis issues. I don't want to mess my back up. But Drop Cleans? I frickin love them. Also deadlifts.

I want to get strong & properly fit. Hell I need to train, I don't have much else that is stable at the moment.
I also really can't afford a personal trainer.

Should I go get assessed an programmed by this dude?
What option do I have to fix my big lifts if I dont?

Any help would be appriciated.

Edit: I have pretty much born all here so if this thread falls on its ass I'm done with this board.

brianthebard

Tbh I think you need to see two different people, people who are sympathetic to what you want to do. The first guy doesn't want you doing weights at all can only said ok do lighter weights to shut you up and the second guy seems nuts-why would you wait a year for hypertrophy training? Isn't lifting weights almost by definition trying to cause hypertrophy? I don't know if your lordosis issue can be 'fixed' or if its just something you live with and deal with, but even so it shouldn't get in the way of lifting weights, if it was that bad you'd have known way before now. So my point is to get checked out again by someone else, and save up for a session or two with a personal trainer if possible.

d'Oracle

brianthebard wrote: »

Tbh I think you need to see two different people, people who are sympathetic to what you want to do. The first guy doesn't want you doing weights at all can only said ok do lighter weights to shut you up and the second guy seems nuts-why would you wait a year for hypertrophy training? Isn't lifting weights almost by definition trying to cause hypertrophy? I don't know if your lordosis issue can be 'fixed' or if its just something you live with and deal with, but even so it shouldn't get in the way of lifting weights, if it was that bad you'd have known way before now. So my point is to get checked out again by someone else, and save up for a session or two with a personal trainer if possible.

Cheers.
It was more that he thought I should do high reps at 50% of 1RM in order to strengthen the connective tissue and get the neurological recruitment going.

Obviously Im not convinced on the neuro thing cos if I put 50kg on my 5RM squat in 3 months, without getting appreciably bigger, there must have been Neuro recruitment.

The connective tissue bit is my worry.

brianthebard

connective tissue strengthens at the same time as muscle, albeit taking slightly longer afaik.

Colm_OReilly

It's an unfortunate fact that people who train pick up injuries from time to time. People who don't get fat and sick.

Most, if not all our SS athletes, haven't trained before, but they're monitored all the time doing their movements, and that keeps them relatively safe.

Other things that aid recovery are the proper nutrition and sleep, which is generally neglected in most trainees lifestyle.

Now, to address the issues
1) You're not doing true 5RMs in SS, you're doing 3x5
2) There's nothing intrinsically safer/more dangerous about any rep scheme. The safety aspect is in proper mechanics.
3) Any delay before you do stuff is just silly BS. Do you think if you walked into Hercs tomorrow they'd ask you to wait 3 years before you started Olympic Lifting? No, they'd get you doing olympic lifts, or the drills of them, straight away.

I've probably more to say but it's late and I'd like to De-Internet for a bit.

Yapamillias

Lordotic Posture usually shows itself durind mid teens. If you played a lot of team sports or did athletics you prob would have tight hip flexors. If this has happened, you can check yourself by performing 'thomas test', it can pull your pelvis foward and down. If you do, then stretching your hip flexors and rectus femorus while strengthening your hamstrings and abdominals. You might as well start doing this as soon as possible. As for the exercises, its just that you prob will have some strong muscles vs weaker ones.

cardio,shoot me

Yapamillias wrote: »

Lordotic Posture usually shows itself durind mid teens. If you played a lot of team sports or did athletics you prob would have tight hip flexors. If this has happened, you can check yourself by performing 'thomas test', it can pull your pelvis foward and down. If you do, then stretching your hip flexors and rectus femorus while strengthening your hamstrings and abdominals. You might as well start doing this as soon as possible. As for the exercises, its just that you prob will have some strong muscles vs weaker ones.

no offence dude but do you just google the technical terms or use them on purpose to make yourself look smart?
i mean wtf is the point in using terms like rectus femorus when you know the majority of people wont know what your talking about.

Yapamillias

come on give me a break, the rectus femorus is one the quad muscles...as there are seperate muscles in the quad group, im only saying that particular muscle BECAUSE if you do a normal quad stretch then it wont really do much for the lordotic issue...thats why i had to say rectus femorus...if i had said stretch the quads then I would have been wrong...and i dont know any other name for that muscle so it was nessecary.

itsallaboutheL

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

no offence dude but do you just google the technical terms or use them on purpose to make yourself look smart?
i mean wtf is the point in using terms like rectus femorus when you know the majority of people wont know what your talking about.

I would have, and i'm pretty ****ing major!!!:D

OP

I'd say sort yourseld out with a proper sports physio, or even a consultation with a Physical Threrapist Or NMT i think they like to be known as now..

Roper

Get another opinion. Osteos vary.

I'm inclined to agree about the power cleans, bearing in mind I don't know the ins and outs.

The second list sounds a bit contradictory, are you sure that's what they told you? Don't do hypertrophy, but do the rep range most likely to promote hypertrophy? I think something was lost in translation.

d'Oracle

Roper wrote: »

Get another opinion. Osteos vary.

I'm inclined to agree about the power cleans, bearing in mind I don't know the ins and outs.

The second list sounds a bit contradictory, are you sure that's what they told you? Don't do hypertrophy, but do the rep range most likely to promote hypertrophy? I think something was lost in translation.

Yeah probably.

Basically, He reckons you start on 12-15 reps at around 50% of your 1RM for technique and to strengthen the connective tissue. .
After around 6months to 1 year then you can start doing 8-12 for "hypertrophy"
then maybe 6months or more on do the 5RM - 3x5 whatever, for strength.
Then after leaning a heap of complimentary lifts, start power stuff.

Basically, if I follow that, I will be 30 before I do power cleans again. Do not want.

And lads what Yapamillas said is right according to my osteo. Which I have no problem with. But its not new, or really my concern here.

BossArky

d'Oracle wrote: »

I want to sort the lordosis issues. I don't want to mess my back up. But Drop Cleans? I frickin love them. Also deadlifts.

How are deadlifts or cleans responsible for lordosis?

Here is my understanding of kyphosis and lordosis.

Too much benching causes rounding of the shoulders which leads to kyphosis. The curving of the upper spin causes the lower spine to go the opposite way resulting in lordosis.

Back work such as one arm row will combat the forward pull of the shoulders, and if given time start to correct the kyphosis, and in turn the lordosis. Lordosis can be due to sitting long hours at work etc too.

This is from my experiences (around Jan 08 mentioned in my log at the time). A check up 9 months later by a physio gave me the all clear and reckoned my posture was back to normal / fine.

So, in summary, I would blame benching and weak abs rather than deadlifts and cleans. This is just my personal input. Get it checked out my a professional (again)

d'Oracle

BossArky wrote: »

How are deadlifts or cleans responsible for lordosis?

Here is my understanding of kyphosis and lordosis.

Too much benching causes rounding of the shoulders which leads to kyphosis. The curving of the upper spin causes the lower spine to go the opposite way resulting in lordosis.

Back work such as one arm row will combat the forward pull of the shoulders, and if given time start to correct the kyphosis, and in turn the lordosis. Lordosis can be due to sitting long hours at work etc too.

This is from my experiences (around Jan 08 mentioned in my log at the time). A check up 9 months later by a physio gave me the all clear and reckoned my posture was back to normal / fine.

So, in summary, I would blame benching and weak abs rather than deadlifts and cleans. This is just my personal input. Get it checked out my a professional (again)

Sorry, My first post was rubbish.
I was pretty distressed last night.

Nobody said the deads and cleans were responsible for the lordosis.
They did say that the lordosis would cause trouble when doing them.
Mainly because its quite pronounced.
Basically hip extension isn't good for it or so it says.

cardio,shoot me

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

no offence dude but do you just google the technical terms or use them on purpose to make yourself look smart?
i mean wtf is the point in using terms like rectus femorus when you know the majority of people wont know what your talking about.

Don't be so ignorant just because you don't understand a certain term. It will help you learn if you open your mind.

d'Oracle

Screw it.

I am going to see what the guy has to say.
It may help me in the long run.

I don't have to stick with it if I don't like it.
Thanks for trying to help though.
And sorry for the murky info.

Hanley

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't be so ignorant just because you don't understand a certain term. It will help you learn if you open your mind.

Don't be so judgemental.

It's not the first time they've posted text book style advice in a thread over the last few days.

Everyone wins when things are kept simple.

Yapamillias

give me another name for the rectus femorus then hanley....

Hanley

Hanley wrote: »

Don't be so judgemental.

It's not the first time they've posted text book style advice in a thread over the last few days.

Everyone wins when things are kept simple.

I noticed you brought him up on it before so I'm not being judgemental. There is nothing wrong with what he is doing.

I like his posts. They are intelligent and people can learn from him = win win.

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

Everyone wins when things are kept simple.

'Cept the people who write the complicated text books......

d'Oracle

Yapamillias wrote: »

give me another name for the rectus femorus then hanley....

I appreciate the help and all, but in fairness, Quads would do.
Most people will get it with quads.

Its more of a psoas (hip flexor) problem anyhow...

itsallaboutheL

Deleted User wrote: »

I noticed you brought him up on it before so I'm not being judgemental. There is nothing wrong with what he is doing.

I like his posts. They are intelligent and people can learn from him = win win.

They're are not intelligent posts, they are knowledgeable posts.

To be intelligent posts, OP would have had to appreciate that this is a public forum, frequented mostly by lay people, and vomiting a text book on to a page is of no help to most posters here.

d'Oracle

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

frequented mostly by lay people, and vomiting a text book on to a page is of no help to most posters here.

You are not a fan of gentle language are you?

brianthebard

d'Oracle wrote: »

Screw it.

I am going to see what the guy has to say.
It may help me in the long run.

I don't have to stick with it if I don't like it.
Thanks for trying to help though.
And sorry for the murky info.

Hope it works out for you.

BossArky

I'm gonna use my palmer interosseous to click this thread closed.

The OP seems to have settled on a plan of action & we could do without the thread degenerating.