Bugatti pulled from Italian lake.

junkyard

Divers in Italy have recovered a 1925 Bugatti Brescia from Lake Maggiore. The car was originally sold in France, but spent more than 70 years at a depth of more than 50 metres. It was lifted from the Swiss side of the lake on July 12th.
Sub aqua groups Societa Svizzera di Salvataggio Sezione Ascona and Boerlin Lavori Subacquei collaborated on the operation to recover the Bugatti. Once identified, it will be auctioned to raise funds for the Fondazione Damiano Tamagni- a charity set up in memory of Swiss student Damiano Tamagni who was murdered in Locarno in 2008 (www.damianotamagni.ch)

junkyard

Also on youtube..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5IL9d-Nuqc Link doesn't seem to work but if you type in Bugatti in lake you'll find it.....

carbsy

junkyard wrote: »

Also on youtube..... www.youtube.com/watch?v=V51L9d-Nuqc

Linky no worky.How did they find it btw?

Run_to_da_hills

Tyre seems a bit balled.

PCPhoto

wonder what happened to the driver (if he/she survived)

JoeySully

Found it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5lL9d-Nuqc

Whosbetter?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Tyre seems a bit balled.

Might have the reason it ended up in the lake.

Kevin_Herron

Looks like a Type 22.
Pretty cool that it has been recovered and no doubt will fetch good money!

carchaeologist

Its in very bad shape..wonder what could be done with it.

MarkR

You could hardly fix it, surely it was fall away into small pieces due to corrosion?

carchaeologist

MarkR wrote: »

You could hardly fix it, surely it was fall away into small pieces due to corrosion?

What use is it then..i know its a bugatti and all,but if its that bad...

jhegarty

MarkR wrote: »

You could hardly fix it, surely it was fall away into small pieces due to corrosion?

Would it still be that bad 70 meters down in fresh water ?

junkyard

It's going to be restored, I think it's in pretty amazing condition considering it's been under water for 70 years or so. Here's a link for more info.........
www.plentycar.com/autonews/1925-bugatti-brescia-rescued-lake

galwaytt

....of course it's restorable.

If you consider THIS...you could argue the Bugatti is in better condition !!

junkyard

I'd be embarrassed to admit I was using that much filler on a car tbh, whatever happened to metal finishing? I can honestly say filler is not the answer.

ronaneire

Just needs a good power hosing

johndaman66

jhegarty wrote: »

Would it still be that bad 70 meters down in fresh water ?

Salt water or fresh water I think water will have done seriously bad things to metal after it being sub-merged in it for 70 odd years.

galwaytt wrote: »

....of course it's restorable.

If you consider THIS...you could argue the Bugatti is in better condition !!

I think its a case of one is bad but the other is worse! Whatever about the Bugatti, it is a 1925 Bugatti and that I'm just wondering how it was any way economically viable to restore the BMW considering the amount of time and work that would have surely needed to be ploughed into it.

Max_Damage

How could anyone restore that? All what that's fit for is the crusher, Bugatti or not.

Everything would have to be replaced, thus making it not exactly original.

Run_to_da_hills

Max_Damage wrote: »

How could anyone restore that? All what that's fit for is the crusher, Bugatti or not.

Everything would have to be replaced, thus making it not exactly original.

In fact it could be a danger to other road users, One could Imagine if the original chassis fell apart on a public road.:eek:

The only original part worth saving would be the chassis number plate.

carchaeologist

With all the stuff that would have to be replaced it would definatly be like the axe with three handles and two heads




And heres what it should look like i think?

Max_Damage

It's a write off, pure and simple.

carchaeologist

What is a good one worth?Being an early bugatti im guessing quite a bit.

gn3dr

junkyard wrote: »

I'd be embarrassed to admit I was using that much filler on a car tbh, whatever happened to metal finishing? I can honestly say filler is not the answer.

I've seen a lot worse use of filler - especially in some restoration pictures posted here......
In fairness there was also a lot of detailed metal work done to a high standard in that BMW restoration.

PaulK_CCI

Max_Damage wrote: »

How could anyone restore that? All what that's fit for is the crusher, Bugatti or not.

Everything would have to be replaced, thus making it not exactly original.

It's a write off, but it will most definitely be totally restored and is, even in its current state worth a lot of money!!

Bugatti's, vintage Bentley's, Aston Martins, Rollers, Ferrari's and the likes, are in a different league than your "normal" type of classic car. Here it's not so much the vehicle itself or the condition of it that is relevant, but the pedigree, heritage and exclusivity of everything around it, and that's what people are willing to part huge amounts of money for.

All Bugatti's are more or less documented, and even though there are still a good few that have been written off or crushed over the years, they would have tabs on most cars, so if one resurfaces, the chassis number and details will be 'dug up' and once confirmed, you are looking at a very valuable car indeed. Restored and all, you could be looking at an excess of a quarter of a million to half a million euro's... 100-200,000 should get this car reasonably restored, so even in this condition, as a heap of rusted and twisted metal, it would still be worth at least 30-40k !!!! That;s not the sort of money you would normally send to the crusher.

Restoring it, will ofcourse mean replacing EVERYTHING, and the question arises as to what the point is, if everything is replaced, but as mentioned above, it is the pedigree, the heritage, the chassis number and ultimately the identy of what the car once and ofcourse let's not forget, the knowlegde that this would be the car that spent most of its life at the bottem of a lake!! Some pedigree :-) !!

carchaeologist

PaulK_CCI wrote: »

Restoring it, will ofcourse mean replacing EVERYTHING, and the question arises as to what the point is, if everything is replaced, but as mentioned above, it is the pedigree, the heritage, the chassis number and ultimately the identy of what the car once and ofcourse let's not forget, the knowlegde that this would be the car that spent most of its life at the bottem of a lake!! Some pedigree :-) !!

Thanks paul,
So if you break it down what you are really paying for is the right to use the chassis number on a replica of the original car?Fair enough it spent most of its life at the bottom of a lake,but if you replace everything or most of the parts...it didnt did it...

PaulK_CCI

carchaeologist wrote: »

Thanks paul,
So if you break it down what you are really paying for is the right to use the chassis number on a replica of the original car?Fair enough it spent most of its life at the bottom of a lake,but if you replace everything or most of the parts...it didnt did it...

but we're not talking about the nuts and the bolts here , we're talking about the spirit or the soul of the car that lives on! Finished, it'll still be a genuine Bugatti !!! and once you've driven one, let alone sat in one, you don't care if it was made up of all new parts, it's just breathtaking either way...

Think of it as the Jag D-type from the Jag heritage trust that featured in a thread here recently. That's a unique car in that it is original and never raced! But even a D-type that WAS raced, and perhaps suffered numerous crashes, and was subsequently revived.... Does it really matter that all of the body panels have been replaced by now, the engine replaced/rebuilt, etc ? No, because it would still be that particular D-type and the feeling of experiencing a car like that (even if only the way Carlosfandago had as a passenger!!!) is priceless, regardless of whether the car would be completely built up from new parts or wether it was untouched.

Max_Damage

PaulK_CCI wrote: »

but we're not talking about the nuts and the bolts here , we're talking about the spirit or the soul of the car that lives on! Finished, it'll still be a genuine Bugatti !!!

I have to disagree here. It won't be an original Bugatti. It will be some thing made up in 2009 / 2010 that will resemble a Bugatti (a glorified replica)

What more, the price of it will be over-inflated just because it has a small chassis plate (the only original thing) bearing the name of a Bugatti. A very same car without that plate would go for a fraction of the price. Seems a bit illogical.

PaulK_CCI

Max_Damage wrote: »

I have to disagree here. It won't be an original Bugatti. It will be some thing made up in 2009 / 2010 that will resemble a Bugatti (a glorified replica)
.

Note I said "genuine Bugatti" and not "original Bugatti" !!! Because that's key issue here:

What you are saying would hold true for a VW beetle, a Ford Cortina, or even a Jaguar Mk2, but because we're talking Bugatti here, the sheer fact that there were only such small numbers of these cars built, all cars that were ever built are 'mapped' so to speak, and that they are held in such high regard and esteem amongst collectors, means that whenever a genuine Bugatti that noone knew where it went at some stage, does pop up somewhere, the interest for it will be huge!! (for example the Atalanta 57s that popped up out of an estate in the UK! Now that car was still in reasonably ok condition, but would still need a complete restoration/recommissioning too: it fetched 3,3 million euro's!!!)

Currently there are almost as much Bugatti replica's that have been built true to the original (so only people knowing their stuff will be able to distinghuish them from an original car) than real ones! And even those replica's are very expensive to buy. The Bugatti heritage club even issues chassis numbers to replica's that have been built so true to the original, that they deserve to be distinguished for that. And believe me the scrutiny is incredible. But ofcourse those chassis numbers are NOT the genuine article, so that is why a serious collector or Bugatti affecionado will be so keen on getting their hands on a 'genuine' car, even if after restoring it, it won't have almost none of the 'original' parts in it, it will still be a 'genuine' Bugatti!!.

Kevin_Herron

I was avoiding getting into this thread but I wont leave Paul on his own!

I would largely agree with what Paul has said.
As a Bugattiste myself I would consider whatever is made from this T22 a genuine Bugatti, like the Atalante of Dr.Harold Carr and more so of the T57C Galibier of Michel Dovaz that was made into 'Tourist Trophy-Carrosserie replica'.
A sad ending for a Galibier as there arent many left but still the same car with a different body. They are not a replica in the sense of using a Ford Pinto engine and a fibreglass body!

Dont forget that the body of a Bugatti frequently changed when they were still fresh cars so the same thing applies.
Like the T37 that Paul posted awhile back, I could clearley see it wasnt built 70 years ago but I would consider it a genuine Bugatti.

hi5

The originality debate reminds me of this:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbha4XclSMU

trevorbrady

I was thinking of exactly the same thing

Max_Damage

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here!

carchaeologist

Interesting debate here.Six of one and half a dozen of the other it seems,valid points all round.

Has anyone got the loan of a bugatti for a weekend so i can see what all the fuss is about?:)

Bios

junkyard wrote: »

I'd be embarrassed to admit I was using that much filler on a car tbh, whatever happened to metal finishing? I can honestly say filler is not the answer.

As this was my first real attempt at body repair, I did my best to mould the metal to the correct shape but some filler was required to get it perfectly flat. It is in fact a very thin layer, never more that 1/4 inch thick.

Gary ITR

carchaeologist wrote: »

Has anyone got the loan of a bugatti for a weekend so i can see what all the fuss is about?:)

I have this in yellow.You'll have to collect it from my folks house though cos that's where I leave it

carchaeologist

Onkle wrote: »

I have this in yellow.You'll have to collect it from my folks house though cos that's where I leave it

Thanks onkle,ill bring it back with a full tank..

Max_Damage

Onkle wrote: »

I have this in yellow.You'll have to collect it from my folks house though cos that's where I leave it

Those crazy Cossacks...

PaulK_CCI

hi5, brilliant link! I must say this is one of my favorite clips from the Trotters (with the one where Dell Boy tries to impress the ladies in the pub and falls straight through the upright waiters entrance being my number one...)

I think it is very much a thing of 'each to their own'. Some people love Morris Marina's and are willing to pay good money for a nice example, other would rather see them all end up in the crusher and cannot see what the fuss is about!
Same with Bugatti's. A lot of people think they are a lot of fuss about nothing, overpriced pieces of pre-war metal, and others think they are the next best thing to God!

carchaeologist wrote: »

Has anyone got the loan of a bugatti for a weekend so i can see what all the fuss is about?:)

I think the essence of understanding what a Bugatti is, is indeed to take an interest in what they are, the superb mechanics of the cars, the simplicity of the design, and the best way to experience this is to see, feel, and if possible drive one, believe me, it's an experience you will never forget, BUT you should never take the cars out of the context of the era they were built, which is the mid twenties to early thirties!!!!!

(oh, and to be honest the bugatti attempt in the eighties and the current Veyron don't do it for me at all, as to me, they only wear a Bugatti badge but aren't what these cars are about...)

carchaeologist

PaulK_CCI wrote: »

BUT you should never take the cars out of the context of the era they were built, which is the mid twenties to early thirties!!!!!

Good piont,for cars of that era bugattis would be about as good as you would get.
This applies for all old cars,so many people buy a classic and expect it to and be as reliable and drive as well as a modern.

johndaman66

A question, if a completely new car is fabricted from scratch and it then wears the chassis plate of the original what would be done with the original then? Would it be turfed back into the lake as I'm sure many would argue that this is where it now belogs or put on display in a museum? Would any museum put a lump of very badly rusted metal on display and furthermore as the new incarnation has the original cars identity does this mean that the lump of rusting metal has effectively now got no identity?

james1410

Im a lover of all classic cars i think they are so much more attractive looking than the computers on wheels they have now which are boring.

anything is pretty much restorable! people have been pulling ww2 spitfires folkewolf 190s jeeps ect.. out of the ocean for years and restoring them from the ground up! altough the best thing to do with that Bugatti is use it as a basis to build new ones im sure if there was enough intrest shown by Bugatti owners ect.. they might build them to order for collectors but id say the would be in the 100000's

kev1.3s

johndaman66 wrote: »

A question, if a completely new car is fabricted from scratch and it then wears the chassis plate of the original what would be done with the original then? Would it be turfed back into the lake as I'm sure many would argue that this is where it now belogs or put on display in a museum? Would any museum put a lump of very badly rusted metal on display and furthermore as the new incarnation has the original cars identity does this mean that the lump of rusting metal has effectively now got no identity?

the original car will always be the original bugatti with or without its chassis no. no matter how much money is thrown at it to recreate the "restored car" it will always be just that ( a recreation ) with no real connection to the bugatti family
or Molsheim, it will be in essence a hugely expensive ringer. Having spent the 60-90k guide price on that brescia I'd rather preserve its remains and put it in a display case than drive around in a replica.

Kevin_Herron

Cars like this always bring interesting discussions and opinions!

She's due to be auctioned next week in Paris.

james1410

kev1.3s wrote: »

the original car will always be the original bugatti with or without its chassis no. no matter how much money is thrown at it to recreate the "restored car" it will always be just that ( a recreation ) with no real connection to the bugatti family
or Molsheim, it will be in essence a hugely expensive ringer. Having spent the 60-90k guide price on that brescia I'd rather preserve its remains and put it in a display case than drive around in a replica.

I ment to say in my post that bugatti might build them there selves that infact would make them a genuine bugatti yeah it wouldent be the orignal model but still would be autentic at least and there is plenty of millionaires out there that would fork out for a new one!

Kevin_Herron

kev1.3s wrote: »

the original car will always be the original bugatti with or without its chassis no. no matter how much money is thrown at it to recreate the "restored car" it will always be just that ( a recreation ) with no real connection to the bugatti family
or Molsheim, it will be in essence a hugely expensive ringer. Having spent the 60-90k guide price on that brescia I'd rather preserve its remains and put it in a display case than drive around in a replica.

In Bugatti circles this is called 'continuous history'.
You can get away with anything!

junkyard

Kevin_Herron wrote: »

Cars like this always bring interesting discussions and opinions!

She's due to be auctioned next week in Paris.

I'll get some photos, anyone else going?

carchaeologist

Kevin_Herron wrote: »

In Bugatti circles this is called 'continuous history'.
You can get away with anything!

Theres lots of continuous history happening in this country,with the new NCT rules i think the amount of it will step up a bit...

B11gt00e

...What's the story with Bugattis being driven into lakes anyways?????

hi5

B11gt00e wrote: »

...What's the story with Bugattis being driven into lakes anyways?????

Unpaid duties were worth more than the car,so it had to be destroyed,easiest thing for Customs to do was push it into a nearby lake.
Doesnt say if the fluids were drained first:)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1241644/The-rare-Bugatti-car-plucked-lake-70-years-fetch-80-000-auction.html

Kevin_Herron

The T22 Brescia made €260,500!

Great.

unkel

Indeed!

It's not unusual for a Bugatti roadster to go for thousands of euros at auction. However, it is a bit odd when that roadster has been at the bottom of a lake for more than 70 years. A Dutch man paid 260,500 euros (368,000 dollars) for the car, which was dredged from Lake Maggiore in Switzerland in July, according to the auction house, Bonhams. The car will now go to a US museum while the money will go to a charity. Bonhams says it is unlikely the car will ever be able to drive again.

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