An idea

Tim Robbins

Just an idea for this forum. Usually atheists and agnostics when they post here, they say: "as an atheist I think..." or "as an agnostic I think..."

The Christians don't. I think it would help the threads have a cleare structure
if the Christians rarely would say:

"As a Roman Catholic...."

"As an Anglican..."

"As a Methodist..."

"As a Baptist..."

Especially when a new person starts the thread. They get a range of answers from the Christians which are influenced by their denomination but it would make the threads easier to follow, read, understand if the Christians were straight up on this.

Especially on issues where it's likely that your Church will have different opinions on the thread topic to other Christian Churches. And let's be honest that's the case on many issues here.

It would also prevent debate between who has the better Christianity which usually end up sparring between the Catholics and some of the Protestants and derailing the thread.

If we're clarfying where we are coming from so should the Christians.

All in favour - say "I".

achtungbarry

As an atheist I agree with this

(subject to concrete proof being presented that this is indeed the best way to debate)

Seaneh

Nay.

philologos

Tim Robbins: If I said at the start of every post "As an Anglican" this, that or the other. My opinion would differ from many other Anglicans on certain issues. I'm influenced by quite a number of different Christian denominations in how I view Christianity. I don't feel it necessary, and it is potentially just divisive.

Edit: What do you suggest for those Christians who don't have a denomination?

JimiTime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Just an idea for this forum. Usually atheists and agnostics when they post here, they say: "as an atheist I think..." or "as an agnostic I think..."

The Christians don't. I think it would help the threads have a cleare structure
if the Christians rarely would say:

"As a Roman Catholic...."

"As an Anglican..."

"As a Methodist..."

"As a Baptist..."

Especially when a new person starts the thread. They get a range of answers from the Christians which are influenced by their denomination but it would make the threads easier to follow, read, understand if the Christians were straight up on this.

Especially on issues where it's likely that your Church will have different opinions on the thread topic to other Christian Churches. And let's be honest that's the case on many issues here.

It would also prevent debate between who has the better Christianity which usually end up sparring between the Catholics and some of the Protestants and derailing the thread.

If we're clarfying where we are coming from so should the Christians.

All in favour - say "I".

Ha Ha. 'Who has the better Christianity'. Nay.

PDN

I think, where it's relevant, that usually happens. However, as others have pointed out, being part of a particular denomination does not mean that one is bound by that denomination's view.

The reason why atheists and agnostics should declare themselves is because we have had problems where questions were posted on a Christianity forum in good faith, but then atheists answered with a strawman trollish parody of the Christian position. The OPs, not familiar with the muppetry that used to go on here, thought that they were receiving answers from Christians and much misunderstanding ensued.

Thankfully that happens much less these days.

Fanny Cradock

Speaking as a user, not a mod, I thank you for the input, Tim, but I think such a format could come across as a little anal to the first-time/ irregular poster. And, as PDN suggested, the relevant facts usually make themselves known in a thread. Anyway, we generally have the same bunch of people posting here each day, so I think we all know (more or less) where we stand.

antiskeptic

Tim Robbins;61408885]Just an idea for this forum. Usually atheists and agnostics when they post here, they say: "as an atheist I think..." or "as an agnostic I think..."

Shouldn't there be a statement of denominational difference here too? "As a strong/weak atheist..."

mark renton

As a Christian and an Atheist I disagree

philologos

john47832 wrote: »

As a Christian and an Atheist I disagree

A Chratheist, how does that work?

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

Tim Robbins: If I said at the start of every post "As an Anglican" this, that or the other. My opinion would differ from many other Anglicans on certain issues. I'm influenced by quite a number of different Christian denominations in how I view Christianity. I don't feel it necessary, and it is potentially just divisive.

Edit: What do you suggest for those Christians who don't have a denomination?

"As a non-denominational Christian".

*hands dunce hat to Jakkass.

philologos

JC 2K3 wrote: »

"As a non-denominational Christian".

*hands dunce hat to Jakkass.

We all have our moments :pac:

mark renton

Jakkass wrote: »

A Chratheist, how does that work?

When I hang with the Christians then i'm an Atheist - when I hang with the Aethiests then I'm a Christian

This way I find I contradict both so i learn a lot about each, then maybe one day i'll stand by one

Also means I have me bases covered if there is a judgement day

Fanny Cradock

john47832 wrote: »

Also means I have me bases covered if there is a judgement day

Eh, not according to mainstream Christianity.

mark renton

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Eh, not according to mainstream Christianity.

What else do I need?

Fanny Cradock

I would suggest that actually believing that there is a God would be a good place to start, recognition that there is a gulf between yourself and him - between the imperfect and the perfect - and acceptance that Jesus is the only way to bridge that great divide. I hardly think God, an apparently omnipotent being, would be fooled or impressed by the hedging of bets. One cant sincerely be a believer only on the odd days of the week and an unbeliever on the even. If you believe something it will make itself apparent in your life.

mark renton

But I do believe in God

I'm not really hedging bets, more practing acceptance of other peoples views and opinions, which I believe is a Christian value - for such reasons I would consider myself of Christian value

I try not to get into religion because this is where my differences come in as I have my own beliefs - and I believe God gave us the capability to think freely and surely then cannot cast an iron fist upon us for using such a gift

kelly1

john47832 wrote: »

But I do believe in God

But you're an atheist when you "hang" with the Christians. Are you sure you believe in God?

prinz

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The Christians don't. I think it would help the threads have a clearer structure if the Christians rarely would say:

"As a Roman Catholic...."

"As an Anglican..."

"As a Methodist..."

"As a Baptist..."

The problem with this is that I am not a theologian. I wouldn't care to speak on behalf of any denomination tbh. The only outcome I can see of this is someone saying "As a Roman Catholic yadda yadda yadda.." and then 10 pages of atheists linking Canon Law, and Vatican Policy to 'prove' the poster is somehow wrong/ misrepresenting/ cherry picking/ incompatible / contradictory with Church teachings. So the discussion dies and becomes a blame fest of people not being a perfect Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or whatever.

JC 2K3

prinz wrote: »

The problem with this is that I am not a theologian. I wouldn't care to speak on behalf of any denomination tbh. The only outcome I can see of this is someone saying "As a Roman Catholic yadda yadda yadda.." and then 10 pages of atheists linking Canon Law, and Vatican Policy to 'prove' the poster is somehow wrong/ misrepresenting/ cherry picking/ incompatible / contradictory with Church teachings. So the discussion dies and becomes a blame fest of people not being a perfect Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or whatever.

I'd like you to back this up please.

prinz

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I'd like you to back this up please.

As soon as I get the conflabulator for my time machine...

PDN

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I'd like you to back this up please.

And how does one back up a prediction?

robindch

PDN wrote: »

And how does one back up a prediction?

Copy it and put it in a safe?

antiskeptic

robindch wrote: »

Copy it and put it in a safe?

Or, as Jesus did, fulfill them.

mark renton

kelly1 wrote: »

But you're an atheist when you "hang" with the Christians. Are you sure you believe in God?

For educational purposes only and yes I'm sure

kelly1

john47832 wrote: »

For educational purposes only and yes I'm sure

How do you educate yourself or others by pretending to be something you're not?

mark renton

kelly1 wrote: »

How do you educate yourself or others by pretending to be something you're not?

But I can be both - can I not?

kelly1

john47832 wrote: »

But I can be both - can I not?

Are there any marbles on your floor by any chance?

mark renton

kelly1 wrote: »

Are there any marbles on your floor by any chance?

No marbles down there - when I need a God in my life then I choose to believe in one and practice my faith - otherwise I like to explore other points of view that I wont mention here as they can be provocative to some people

philologos

john47832: Do you not think that you could be putting a stumbling block before Christians by doing what you do? The Torah explicitly forbids putting a stumbling block before the deaf and the blind, Jesus repeats this in the New Testament, as does Paul. Exploring other points of view is fine as long as it doesn't affect those around you.

As for being both, Biblically that is not possible. You cannot serve two masters firstly, and secondly Christianity involves honouring God and honouring Jesus Christ as Lord. That's my take on it anyway.

prinz

john47832 wrote: »

As a Christian and an Atheist I disagree

john47832 wrote: »

But I can be both - can I not?

john47832 wrote: »

No marbles down there - when I need a God in my life then I choose to believe in one and practice my faith

Newsflash. You're not a Christian. What faith is it you are practising? Faith is faith, it is not something you choose to pick up now and again when you need a leg up.

mark renton

prinz wrote: »

Newsflash. You're not a Christian. What faith is it you are practising? Faith is faith, it is not something you choose to pick up now and again when you need a leg up.

Please do not tell me what I am - judgement is a right reserved for those who have earned it

Why is faith not something to use when needed?

mark renton

Jakkass wrote: »

john47832: Do you not think that you could be putting a stumbling block before Christians by doing what you do? The Torah explicitly forbids putting a stumbling block before the deaf and the blind, Jesus repeats this in the New Testament, as does Paul. Exploring other points of view is fine as long as it doesn't affect those around you.

As for being both, Biblically that is not possible. You cannot serve two masters firstly, and secondly Christianity involves honouring God and honouring Jesus Christ as Lord. That's my take on it anyway.

I dont believe I am powerful enough to lay any stumbling blocks before any man or woman

I have not claimed to be a Biblical Christian - merley of Christian values

Does a Christian have to take all or nothing of Christianity?

JC 2K3

I'm not an authority on this, but I would assume a Christian is one who believes all of Christianity, not some. Someone who holds some Christian values need not be a Christian.

prinz

john47832 wrote: »

Please do not tell me what I am - judgement is a right reserved for those who have earned it

Why is faith not something to use when needed?

Faith is something you either have or you don't. It's not something you pick up this week and drop the next. It's not something you embrace depending on who you talk to. I didn't judge you btw, you're not a Christian however. Many people embrace Christian values, even atheists embrace Christian values, that does not make you a Christian .

mark renton

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I'm not an authority on this, but I would assume a Christian is one who believes all of Christianity, not some. Someone who holds some Christian values need not be a Christian.

Someone who is Christian need not hold Christian values

JC 2K3

lolwut?

philologos

john47832 wrote: »

Why is faith not something to use when needed?

Faith isn't dispensible. A commitment to Christianity means that Christianity should affect your life, you should be willing to stand up and live as best as you can by it's precepts. Jesus said that whoever denies Him in public, He will deny before His heavenly Father.

john47832 wrote: »

I dont believe I am powerful enough to lay any stumbling blocks before any man or woman

You mightn't think so. I'm just alerting you to the fact that what you are doing might not be so wise in the long term.

john47832 wrote: »

I have not claimed to be a Biblical Christian - merley of Christian values

What we know of Christian values are contained in the Bible.

john47832 wrote: »

Does a Christian have to take all or nothing of Christianity?

I personally consider it to be all or nothing.

In Revelations, Jesus speaks to the churches. He speaks to the church of Laodicea saying the following:

Revelation 3:15-16 wrote:

‘I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

mark renton

prinz wrote: »

Faith is something you either have or you don't. It's not something you pick up this week and drop the next. It's not something you embrace depending on who you talk to. I didn't judge you btw, you're not a Christian however. Many people embrace Christian values, even atheists embrace Christian values, that does not make you a Christian .

Faith is not something you have or havent, it is not black or white - it can be started, practiced and progressed

In reality we are what we consider ourselves to be, unless we are consumed with what other people think of us

mark renton

JC 2K3 wrote: »

lolwut?

I'll elaborate

A man goes to Church a couple of times a week, talk to him and he will speak of God in glowing terms and quote some verses of the bible

he then goes home at night and is physically abusive to his wife

is this man considered Christian?

JC 2K3

Considered to be Christian by those who know not of his true nature? Perhaps.

Would he be considered a Christian by other Christians if they knew what he was doing? Probably not.

PDN

john47832 wrote: »

I'll elaborate

A man goes to Church a couple of times a week, talk to him and he will speak of God in glowing terms and quote some verses of the bible

he then goes home at night and is physically abusive to his wife

is this man considered Christian?

Nope.

He's not a Christian when he's in church. He's not a Christian when he's speaking of God in glowing terms. He's not a Christian when he's abusing his wife.

He's a hypocrite.

prinz

john47832 wrote: »

Faith is not something you have or havent, it is not black or white - it can be started, practiced and progressed

In reality we are what we consider ourselves to be, unless we are consumed with what other people think of us

OK if you say so. Do you regularly decide whether you have faith or not? I could consider myself to be an aboriginal medicine man, does that make it so? I could consider myself the best Jew since Reb Tevye the Milkman, because I embrace some Jewish values, does that make me a Jew?

Zombrex

prinz wrote: »

The problem with this is that I am not a theologian. I wouldn't care to speak on behalf of any denomination tbh. The only outcome I can see of this is someone saying "As a Roman Catholic yadda yadda yadda.." and then 10 pages of atheists linking Canon Law, and Vatican Policy to 'prove' the poster is somehow wrong/ misrepresenting/ cherry picking/ incompatible / contradictory with Church teachings. So the discussion dies and becomes a blame fest of people not being a perfect Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or whatever.

I hope the irony of this post hasn't been lost ... hang on in there john47832 :pac:

prinz

Wicknight wrote: »

I hope the irony of this post hasn't been lost ... hang on in there john47832 :pac:

Go on, I'll bite, what irony would that be? People being told they aren't a perfect....... whatever? Hilarious. Tbh I don't see any point in mollycoddling someone who declares themselves "A Christian and an atheist" and cannot see the inherent contradiction there. On the other hand I see no reason why anyone should have to align themselves with any particular Christian denomination on a Christian forum because we both know exactly what the fruits of that will be.

What I do see is the irony of atheists slamming people all the time who are not following Christ's teachings, and on the other hand supporting the same cherry picking and ambivalence when it suits.

Zombrex

prinz wrote: »

Go on, I'll bite, what irony would that be? People being told they aren't a perfect....... whatever? Hilarious. Tbh I don't see any point in mollycoddling someone who declares themselves "A Christian and an atheist" and cannot see the inherent contradiction there.

Who asked you to mollycoddle him? I can't find any post where the poster is asking you to accept his beliefs or his religious position.

You did exactly what you initially complained about "atheists" doing, spending a significant portion of a thread not discussing the topic at hand but trying to point out to a poster than he is not what he claims to be for the purposes of simply pointing that out as far as I can tell.

So one is left concluding that you don't actually care when people do this, you only care when "atheists" do this.

Hence the irony.

prinz

john47832 wrote: »

As a Christian and an Atheist I disagree

john47832 wrote: »

But I do believe in God

john47832 wrote: »

Someone who is Christian need not hold Christian values

Wicknight wrote: »

I can't find any post where the poster is asking you to accept his beliefs or his religious position.
You did exactly what you initially complained about "atheists" doing....

Actually I didn't. You're not comparing like with like. I think you'll find the 'topic' at hand was fairly comprehensively dealt with by the major contributors to this forum within the first two pages. What else is there to discuss? No I will not begin every post with a subscription to any denomination, or belief. You'll notice the poster I was replying to didn't either. I don't care what someone believes, but I do care if they are trying to troll and bait by making a mockery of a religion as I see it. Hence I reserve the right to respond however I see fit. The posters here are Christians, the denominations, save in the case of specific questions, are irrelevant and just a tool to label and compartmentalise people by non Christians IMO. If the same poster had come on and said he was an atheist I wouldn't have bothered replying, except perhaps for a 'good for you friend'.

John there isn't declaring public allegiance to any religion, organisation, belief structure etc. which a Christian linked to a particular denomination is.

mark renton

prinz: I'm rather insulted you would see my stance as making a mockery of your faith - and I'm rather bemused - some here would call me confused, I believe I am open minded - I mean no mockery or judgement


I cannot prove something is there or prove something is not there, so what is wrong with my assumption that I can do both - I don't see this as a game where you are either on one side or the other, I would consider myself as a student rather than a teacher

I have many Christian friends and many Atheist friends - I have observed that many of my Atheist friends would have Christian values - also I have found many of my Christian friends would be lacking Christian values - as a result I suppose I would class myself as being in the middle - I do believe in God and I have Christian values, on the other side I also believe in some Atheist concepts

I will ask the question (please give respectful answer)

Do you think I am Christian or Atheist?

JC 2K3

An atheist doesn't believe in God, therefore you can't be an atheist.

A Christian generally holds all the tenents of Christianity to be true, if you do not you're not a Christian.

I'd say you're a theist with a Christian bias.

philologos

Do you value what God values? That's the best way you will know if you are a Christian. Nobody else can tell you but yourself in the end.

There are signs that one can see though I think a spiritual transformation from the former self to a newer self (Romans 12, John 3:5). One should be bearing fruit (Matthew 3:10, Matthew 7:20, Galatians 5:22-27).

Following God, involves holding fast to what is good, and hating what is evil (1 Thessalonians 5:20-22, Isaiah 5:20-21) . Good and evil are not determined by the secular world, but rather they are determined by God Himself.

A recognition that the Holy Scriptures are the inspired word useful for reproof, correction, and contain all things necessary for salvation (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21).

A repentant heart. A recognition that mankind have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) through sin which separates mankind from God. (Isaiah 59:2).

This is my take on the marks of a Christian. It is up to you whether you agree with me. When I was first coming to Christ, I had to walk slowly, I didn't possess these traits and I had not seen a transformation, as God was only beginning to work within me (Philippians 1:6) but in time some of these started to develop. I still have much more to work on though, and hopefully God will be with me on these things.

I don't leave this post to criticise, but to offer some inspiration as to what being a Christian means. I don't claim to know all the answers, this is merely my opinion.

Zombrex

prinz wrote: »

Actually I didn't. You're not comparing like with like.

Of course not. :rolleyes:

You are not an atheist, and therefore feel perfectly justified in doing exactly what you give out about what "atheists" apparently do, because when you do it you are defending Christianity from mockery (good reason) or some such, and when "atheists" do it they are trolling and derailing a thread (bad reason).