Do you respect the views of the religious?

vibe666

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Especially when the only thing I said is that an atheist cannot be demanding something of God because he doesn't think he exists and that there is a difference between demanding proof from God and demanding proof from someone who claims to be God. The only thing I said about "all atheists" is that they don't believe in God which is fair enough I think

thank you, that was exactly the point i was trying to make.

that, and that I STILL don't hear any praying (since I don't need to offer any proof of my divinity for you to believe in me).

midlandsmissus

Zillah wrote: »

Ta da!



Curious indeed!

Zillah,

What has that post of mine got to do with anything?

I believe it was posted in a thread entitled 'Your views and your children' where we were talking about how your views could affect your potential future children.
I said that I felt left out at times as a child because I was on my own during religion ,and I was the only non-catholic in my primary school. It didn't affect me badly but I did feel left out at times. I would have wanted to be a catholic sometimes, just because everybody else was one, but I would have had no idea of what a Catholic actually was.

midlandsmissus

vibe666 wrote: »

not sure where you read that, but it's totally incorrect. i have only been genuinely sleep deprived once in my life and I did not have any hallucinations at all at that time.

i do however have hallucinations every couple of months or so now, and thanks to the missus 'loving her bed' as she calls it and not sleeping properly if i'm not there, i get very regular sleep, actually too much if anything.

it's been happening for as long as i can remmeber, in different houses, in different climates, in different countries, with different people (or alone) so it's not environmental either.

you saw what you wanted to see. maybe not consciously, but your brain filled in a need for it and you lapped it up. i honestly don't see how as a steadfast atheist you could be swayed by a vision in the night.

personally, if jesus christ appeared to me out of thin air, in person, flesh and blood, in broad daylight i would spend all the time i had questioning his legitimacy every way i could to discount any other possibility. i'd want to be seeing solid miracles and getting dna samples and even then he'd have to work damn hard to convince me it wasn't a hoax.

sorry, but you were NOT an atheist, despite what you claim.

WE differ there, as you state that you hallucinate all the tiime, and I have never 'hallucinated' before or since.

That last sentence is arrogant in the extreme 'you were NOT an atheist, despite what you claim'.

I was an atheist for 22 years, I argued with everybody about God and the bible, I dismissed it all as rubbish, sorry I am not up to your atheist 'standards',which are what exactly?

midlandsmissus

vibe666 wrote: »

NO, perfectly reasonable attitude from someone who knows that your imaginary god does not exist.

just to clarify: I do not demand anything from your non-existent god.

repeating the same irrelevant statement isn't going to make it the truth.

i do not believe in your imaginary sky wizard, therefore I do not, cannot and will not demand anything of him because he isn't there.

the reason that someone would have to work hard to convince me they were god is because as an ATHEIST i know he does not exist. the tooth fairy and santa claus would have to work equally hard to convince me too, BECAUSE NONE OF THEM EXIST.

therefore, i know that anyone claiming to be him would have to be a total fruitcake, something with your unquestioning belief does not.

none of this requires any arrogance, just a reasonable level of education, an open mind and a modicum of common sense. :rolleyes:

now, on a more serious note, I still don't hear you praying to me yet and I'm starting to doubt your faith in me as your eternal creator, so you're going to have to step up your game in order to stop me from smiting you with a bolt of holy lightening.

'Just a reasonable level of education' You don't think that's arrogant? I have a 1.1 degree, I do a lot of research in a lot of different areas....and I'm not an atheist.

Turtwig

midlandsmissus wrote: »

'Just a reasonable level of education' You don't think that's arrogant? I have a 1.1 degree, I do a lot of research in a lot of different areas....and I'm not an atheist.

No not in the slightest. IF someone doesn't have any education then how do you think they'll explain things?
Explain how the earth is round?
Explain why the sun 'rises'?
Without some education...

philologos

midlandsmissus wrote: »

'Just a reasonable level of education' You don't think that's arrogant? I have a 1.1 degree, I do a lot of research in a lot of different areas....and I'm not an atheist.

This is ultimately where the deck of cards falls down for the anti-theist if they are to say that people of faith are less intelligent than people who are atheists. The difficulty arises when one finds intelligent people of faith throughout history, and in the present.

The other deck of cards falls down when one claims that atheism has a monopoly on science. It takes a quick investigation to see the amount of work that Christians, Muslims and countless others of faith have put into science both in history, and in the present.

This claim is quite frankly non-sensical. If anything is a delusion, it is to think that people are more intelligent merely for the fact that they have dismissed the notion that God exists.

Anti-theists will continue to spout this kind of material on and off. It is merely a testament to mere arrogance rather than anything of substance.

People of faith are not going to go away, we should learn how to deal with people who differ with us rather than resorting to mere slander.

Turtwig

Jakkass wrote: »

This is ultimately where the deck of cards falls down for the anti-theist if they are to say that people of faith are less intelligent than people who are atheists. The difficulty arises when one finds intelligent people of faith throughout history, and in the present.

The other deck of cards falls down when one claims that atheism has a monopoly on science. It takes a quick investigation to see the amount of work that Christians, Muslims and countless others of faith have put into science both in history, and in the present.

This claim is quite frankly non-sensical. If anything is a delusion, it is to think that people are more intelligent merely for the fact that they have dismissed the notion that God exists.

Anti-theists will continue to spout this kind of material on and off. It is merely a testament to mere arrogance rather than anything of substance.

People of faith are not going to go away, we should learn how to deal with people who differ with us rather than resorting to mere slander.

Intelligence is nothing, emotion and empathy is everything.:)

Seriously, though who has actually been hairbrained enough to suggest that atheists are superior intellectually?

Eulick D

Science flies people to the moon.
Religion flies people into buildings.

ChocolateSauce

Jakkass wrote: »

This is ultimately where the deck of cards falls down for the anti-theist if they are to say that people of faith are less intelligent than people who are atheists. The difficulty arises when one finds intelligent people of faith throughout history, and in the present.

The other deck of cards falls down when one claims that atheism has a monopoly on science. It takes a quick investigation to see the amount of work that Christians, Muslims and countless others of faith have put into science both in history, and in the present.

This claim is quite frankly non-sensical. If anything is a delusion, it is to think that people are more intelligent merely for the fact that they have dismissed the notion that God exists.

Anti-theists will continue to spout this kind of material on and off. It is merely a testament to mere arrogance rather than anything of substance.

People of faith are not going to go away, we should learn how to deal with people who differ with us rather than resorting to mere slander.

Not going to get into religion here (for once!), but can you name a single scientific discovery that owes itself to religion? That is not to say anything about the faith of the scientist, but did they use their religion to further the science? I think you'll find that even the most religious scientist used secular thought and experiment to do their science.

Science is a method of doing something, a method which is by definition without a god.

Turtwig

Eulick D wrote: »

Science flies people to the moon.

Why then was the first manned orbit of the moon described in terms of genesis?
Gotta say it was partially religiously motivated..

drkpower

Eulick D wrote: »

Science flies people to the moon.
Religion flies people into buildings.

Of course, there is an argument that religon, at least partially, motivated the moon landings.
And science defintely flies planes into buildings...:eek:

Eulick D

It wasn't powered or inspired by religion unless bibles were burned in the fuel tank or the blueprints made from recycled bibles.
Anyways, I think the next great leap for mankind will be to move the bible into the popular fiction section in Libraries and bookshops.

philologos

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Not going to get into religion here (for once!), but can you name a single scientific discovery that owes itself to religion? That is not to say anything about the faith of the scientist, but did they use their religion to further the science? I think you'll find that even the most religious scientist used secular thought and experiment to do their science.

Science is a method of doing something, a method which is by definition without a god.

If I were talking about attributing scientific discoveries to religion, it might be somewhat useful to entertain this point.
I was discussing intelligence and education, and how religious people work within the field of science.

Atheism has no monopoly on science whatsoever.

philologos

Eulick D wrote: »

Science flies people to the moon.
Religion flies people into buildings.

Interesting you mention the moon. Do you know the astronauts celebrated the Eucharist when they were on the moon?

Anyhow, main point. Religion offers far more good than bad to society ultimately. I feel any denial of the positive motivation that religion has brought us is merely obtuse. Yes, like everything people have abused it, the same can be argued about atheism.

Turtwig

Jakkass wrote: »

Interesting you mention the moon. Do you know the astronauts celebrated the Eucharist when they were on the moon?

Anyhow, main point. Religion offers far more good than bad to society ultimately. I feel any denial of the positive motivation that religion has brought us is merely obtuse. Yes, like everything people have abused it, the same can be argued about atheism.

Jakkass, this is where you and I disagree.

Yes atheism and religion are abused, but I still think religion's day is done it has far too many ideals based on irrationality.

philologos

Malty_T wrote: »

Yes atheism and religion are abused, but I still think religion's day is done it has far too many ideals based on irrationality.

As long as there are adherents of faiths trying to live their lives as best as possible according to their religious tenets on this earth, what you think about religion being "done" is about as useful as Nietzsche's "God is dead", although written in an eloquent style, it never rung true.

There will always be people like this, there is always something in people that longs out for some form of meaning to the way people are, even if you disagree with their conclusions.

As for irrational. That is entirely subjective. I personally consider Christianity to be a rational view based on human experience. I on the other hand consider atheism to be irrational and nonsensical given my experiences, and given my understanding of the world.

Zillah

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Zillah,

What has that post of mine got to do with anything?

I believe it was posted in a thread entitled 'Your views and your children' where we were talking about how your views could affect your potential future children.
I said that I felt left out at times as a child because I was on my own during religion ,and I was the only non-catholic in my primary school. It didn't affect me badly but I did feel left out at times. I would have wanted to be a catholic sometimes, just because everybody else was one, but I would have had no idea of what a Catholic actually was.

Well you kind of answer your own question there. Earlier you were all like "Sure I heard of Jesus, but I heard just as much about Mohammad and Buddha, I'd have no reason to hallucinate about Jesus" and here we are now with the realisation that you felt left out at school and wished that you could be a Catholic.

Zillah

Jakkass wrote: »

As for irrational. That is entirely subjective. I personally consider Christianity to be a rational view based on human experience. I on the other hand consider atheism to be irrational and nonsensical given my experiences, and given my understanding of the world.

Haha it's not subjective you're just wrong.

Turtwig

Zillah wrote: »

Haha it's not subjective you're just wrong.

In the eyes of an atheist yes...
In the eyes of different Christians you're just misguided

philologos

Zillah wrote: »

Haha it's not subjective you're just wrong.

What value is a post like this bringing to the discussion exactly?

We can sit down all day and tell the other that they are wrong. It's fruitless.

Turtwig

Jakkass wrote: »

It's fruitless.

It's not it reinforces personal belief (on both sides) which is important.:)

Hopefully, some day we'll get you Jakkass.

philologos

Malty_T wrote: »

Hopefully, some day we'll get you Jakkass.

I have yet to understand why you think I am "gettable"? What exactly is it that I have that would benefit the cause of atheism anyway?

The internet is an ineffective means of any proselytism in respect to religion. I don't even understand why atheists are interested in proselytism.

Zillah

Jakkass wrote: »

What value is a post like this bringing to the discussion exactly?

We can sit down all day and tell the other that they are wrong. It's fruitless.

Well I'd imagine my diatribe on the manifold falsehoods of Christianity would be quite the highjack of the thread, but I shall say this: Accepting the existence of alternate plains of reality, various magic powers and a supernatural universal Emperor with the temperament of a teenaged despot based entirely on the testimony of ancient anonymous individuals and your own feelings is staggeringly, patently, wantonly irrational, and your claim otherwise deserving of little more than a surprised scoff and a haughty dismissal.

Have your imaginary friend! Indulge in prayer and faith healing and eating magic bread or whatever exactly your particular strain of of the Jesus-brain-infection does. Mock those dead atheists who burn in Hell, revel in the special place your sky-daddy is keeping warm for you by his side. Do as you will, as absurd as you will, but do not for a moment delude yourself into thinking that your infantile imaginary worldview has anything even approaching the intellectual integrity that we call rationality. You are no better than a child battling dragons in his back garden.


Hey I really do go off on rants easily, I warned you.

philologos

Again, I would have to assume that Christianity is indeed false to accept your view. Hence it is only approachable to atheists who have already made this assumption. Such views are ultimately inaccessible to me given who I am. I'm not able to make that assumption currently, and I don't think I ever will be able.

Turtwig

Jakkass wrote: »

I have yet to understand why you think I am "gettable"? What exactly is it that I have that would benefit the cause of atheism anyway?

The internet is an ineffective means of any proselytism in respect to religion. I don't even understand why atheists are interested in proselytism.

No cause, it would only benefit yourself.:)

philologos

Malty_T wrote: »

No cause, it would only benefit yourself.:)

I don't have any evidence of this. I do have evidence of Christianity transforming peoples lives for the better. I have evidence of my own transformation which I can account for, and I have evidence of others transformations which they have told me about.

I don't believe that atheism will ever benefit me, or that it can in any way. I do believe that God changes lives, and has done so ever since His relationship with mankind began.

ChocolateSauce

Jakkass wrote: »

The internet is an ineffective means of any proselytism in respect to religion. I don't even understand why atheists are interested in proselytism.

For me, I'm not interested in making people atheists, I just want to live in a liberal world. I just happen to think that religion is the main thing stopping this, and so I fight it. I don't care what people believe provided the world is fair and free. I just don't think such a world is possible until organised religion is gone. I mean, have you ever seen me attack Paganism or Buddhism except where the former conflicts with scientific knowledge?

Zillah

Jakkass wrote: »

Again, I would have to assume that Christianity is indeed false to accept your view.

Here's a novel thought. Start with no assumptions and then look at the evidence!

Be careful during this transition. There is a great comforting feeling that comes with knowing the answer before you've even looked at the evidence, so at times you might feel like you are falling, or spinning, or simply floating in emptiness. Don't worry! This is normal. This is the feeling that we call "admitting you don't know the answer", it can be very disquieting at first but it can't hurt you!

I'm here to hold your hand during this transition.

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't have any evidence of this. I do have evidence of Christianity transforming peoples lives for the better. I have evidence of my own transformation which I can account for, and I have evidence of others transformations which they have told me about.

Y'see this is what I'm talking about! RELIGION MAKES ME FEEL NICE SO IT IS TRUE DON'T TELL ME IT'S NOT RATIONAL!

philologos

ChocolateSauce: Not all people happen to view liberalism as a good thing. Some boundaries are needed in society, and indeed are for the betterment of all who are in that society. I'm personally a social conservative for that reason. That's more to do with politics than anything else though.

I don't think religion will be ever gone. In fact I would see it as a naiive and misguided belief. People will turn to faith every generation. If religion was removed, people would still seek a higher power in life. I have no doubt that people would find God again.

Turtwig

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't have any evidence of this. I do have evidence of Christianity transforming peoples lives for the better. I have evidence of my own transformation which I can account for, and I have evidence of others transformations which they have told me about.

I don't believe that atheism will ever benefit me, or that it can in any way. I do believe that God changes lives, and has done so ever since His relationship with mankind began.

Well now we're telling you that this transformation is wonderful! Go on bite the serpents hook
Jakkass, we really don't want to try to coerce you but if you feel it will strengthen your belief in God then perhaps we could 'try' ?

Question 1: Why do people seek a higher power?