Do you respect the views of the religious?

Húrin

Mena wrote: »

Not really, no. I just can't take anything they do or say seriously.

On this forum I hear that Ireland has a "religious majority". If this is so then putting your discriminatory attitude into practice would be impossible. How do you get around it?

Mena

drkpower wrote: »

So do you ignore books, articles and viewpoints of religous people?
I presume your employer is not religous?
When you were in school/college, did you ignore the teachings of religous teachers/lecturers..?

Do you say the above merely for effect or do you actually practice what you preach?

1. If they start with the whole zany religious thing in the book then yes, I usually discard it. I don't go out of my way to find out if they're religious before reading though.

2. I have no idea. It's kept out of the workplace, but I would leave if it became an issue, like I did my last position.

3. I have no clue if any of them were/are religious. Like they should, they kept it to themselves and out of everyones face. No, I didn't go to school/college in Ireland, not sure I would have survived that!

Húrin wrote: »

On this forum I hear that Ireland has a "religious majority". If this is so then putting your discriminatory attitude into practice would be impossible. How do you get around it?

I keep my views pretty much to myself and so far most people I deal with do the same, so it's never been an issue really. Besides, my views may hurt/anger some so I generally keep them to myself/remove myself from situations if needed. If they force the issue so will I, but I tend not to back down so prefer not to engage on the issue.

Religion doesn't really even register anywhere on my horizon at all, the first time I really encountered it in full force was when I moved to Ireland 10 years ago... I still find the entire concept bizarre.

drkpower

Mena wrote: »

1. If they start with the whole zany religious thing in the book then yes, I usually discard it. I don't go out of my way to find out if they're religious before reading though.

2. I have no idea. It's kept out of the workplace, but I would leave if it became an issue, like I did my last position.

3. I have no clue if any of them were/are religious. Like they should, they kept it to themselves and out of everyones face. No, I didn't go to school/college in Ireland, not sure I would have survived that!

But I thought that you couldnt take anything they say seriously, not jut the religous stuff...? Surely if this is the case you would check if someone is religous before reading any of their output - because what is the point in reading the views of someone whose views on anything you canyttake seriously?

Zombrex

Húrin wrote: »

What does it mean to respect a view? I think that religious people's views should be respected in the sense that holding such a view does not inherently make the person an intellectual or moral inferior.

That doesn't really work. There are some very dumb religions and religious views out there, and equally some very immoral religions and religious views out there.

What would make a person an intellectual or moral inferior in your opinion?

Mena

drkpower wrote: »

Surely if this is the case you would check if someone is religous before reading any of their output

That would just be obsessive.

drkpower

Mena wrote: »

That would just be obsessive.

Fair enough, but if you genuinely didnt take anything a religous person says seriously, it would be an utter waste of time to read anything they put to paper.

I suspect, given your answers, that there is a little bit of bluster in your earlier statement.

Mena

drkpower wrote: »

Fair enough, but if you genuinely didnt take anything a religous person says seriously, it would be an utter waste of time to read anything they put to paper.

I suspect, given your answers, that there is a little bit of bluster in your earlier statement.

You're entitled to that opinion sure.

drkpower

Mena; can you clarify your view. I'm a little confused by what appears to be an inconsistency in your position.

Can you take anything that a religous person say seriously or not?
Thanks.

Mena

Mena wrote: »

Not really, no. I just can't take anything they do or say seriously.

Not that hard, I said it here. Perhaps I should have said "I find it really hard to take anything...", perhaps that would have satisfied you.

drkpower

Mena wrote: »

Not that hard, I said it here. Perhaps I should have said "I find it really hard to take anything...", perhaps that would have satisfied you.

Well, that would have meant something a little bit different, Mena...

It's not about satisfying me, its about being consistent. As I said, if I didnt take anything that a class of people said seriously (or found it reallly hard to do), I cannot see why I would read anything they wrote. It would surely be pointless and a waste of my time.

But you dont bother to check if someone is religous prior to reading their output, even though, if you knew they were religous, you wouldnt take their output seriously. Im afraid, your position makes little sense and isnt very consistent.

You might want to have a little think about it before you articulate it in the future.

Mena

drkpower wrote: »

Well, that would have meant something a little bit different, Mena...

It's not about satisfying me, its about being consistent. As I said, if I didnt take anything that a class of people said seriously (or found it reallly hard to do), I cannot see why I would read anything they wrote. It would surely be pointless and a waste of my time.

But you dont bother to check if someone is religous prior to reading their output, even though, if you knew they were religous, you wouldnt take their output seriously. Im afraid, your position makes little sense and isnt very consistent.

You might want to have a little think about it before you articulate it in the future.

Since English isn't my first language, I think I articulated it very well. Does my position worry you that much that you need to pick at every point and harp on about it post after post?

How does not checking an author's life history and views on every subject before reading the content of their work make my views inconsistent?

I stand by my original assertion, I can't take people seriously if they hold religious views. Just because I've read something does not mean I have to agree with it nor the fact that I may disagree with an authors perspective means I would avoid their works, unless it was really dreary, yet you seem to think I should just ignore anything I don't agree with? Is this what you do? It's a very blinkered view to take.

I don't take a lot of things seriously, take Science Fiction for example. I still read it.

You say you'd not read anything if you thought you couldn't take the author seriously, I highly recommend you try it. It can enforce your own views or open you up to new ones.

And I think we're both dragging this thread way off topic. If you feel the need to continue, why not start another thread or PM me.

JimiTime

drkpower wrote: »

To Mena:
I suspect, given your answers, that there is a little bit of bluster in your earlier statement.

I got that myself.
Its a good example though of how I have no respect for the opinion. And the opinion is such that I would have little respect for the person holding it neither. (not trying to be offensive btw, i just think in the context of what is being discussed its a good example.) If in fact it was such a position and not just angst or bluster.

dvpower

LZ5by5 wrote: »

What I don't respect is a judgemental fundamentalist taking the word of an ancient book written in very different times literally and using it to make other people feel inferior, or using it to incite hatred towards people that don't deserve such horrible treatment.

Strangely, I tend to have a fair bit of respect for religious fundamentalists (the good ones, not the bad ones). If you believe in a personal God, who loves you and listens to your prayers and will grant you eternal live then it makes a great deal of sense to dedicate a good portion of this interim life to God. Its the people who believe in this God and then say 'Meh, whatever' that I wonder about.

Handsome Bob

dvpower wrote: »

Strangely, I tend to have a fair bit of respect for religious fundamentalists (the good ones, not the bad ones). If you believe in a personal God, who loves you and listens to your prayers and will grant you eternal live then it makes a great deal of sense to dedicate a good portion of this interim life to God. Its the people who believe in this God and then say 'Meh, whatever' that I wonder about.

You gotta help me out here man, what is a "good" fundamentalist?

dvpower

LZ5by5 wrote: »

You gotta help me out here man, what is a "good" fundamentalist?

Poor fundamentalists, they get a bad press. People think they are all off planning suicide missions.

What I mean is, those religious that are not of the a la carte persuasion.

Zillah

LZ5by5 wrote: »

You gotta help me out here man, what is a "good" fundamentalist?

He's probably referring to people like Hassidic Jews who literally won't flip a light switch on Sabbath, or the Amish who won't use technology...rather than the kind setting up Creationist Museums or bombing mosques.

I'd also like to say that I have a strange sort of respect for fundamentalists...their position is much better theology than moderates.

Handsome Bob

Zillah wrote: »

He's probably referring to people like Hassidic Jews who literally won't flip a light switch on Sabbath, or the Amish who won't use technology...rather than the kind setting up Creationist Museums or bombing mosques.

Ah I see, I only tend to use the word fundamentalist when referring to homophobia or violence etc etc inspired by religion.

I'd also like to say that I have a strange sort of respect for fundamentalists...their position is much better theology than moderates.

You're only saying that because the fundamentalists make it a lot easier for you to abuse religion. :pac:

Zillah

No really, fundamentalists have an internally consistent belief system. It's objectively ludicrous but at least it makes sense internally. Moderate religious people have beliefs that make no sense objectively or internally.

In that regard I respect fundamentalists more (or disrespect less, I suppose).

freedom of info

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I've often heard/seen an atheist saying to a theist that they respect the theist's views and also respect them for holding religious views.

I used to, but I can't say that I do any more. I respect their views alright, but not more so than any other moderate view which a person could hold. Do I respect a theist for having a particular view? No. I'm not apologetic about it either. But I suppose that's because, lately, I've been leaning more to the side of anti-theism.

So, a simple question: do you respect a) the views of the religious? b) the religious person for holding those views?

everyone is entitled to their view, just dont ram it down my throat

Coriolanus

Zillah wrote: »

He's probably referring to people like Hassidic Jews who literally won't flip a light switch on Sabbath, or the Amish who won't use technology...rather than the kind setting up Creationist Museums or bombing mosques.

Ah yes, the good Hassidic Jews who were rioting a week or two ago in Israel because a mother who was blatantly neglecting her children was arrested. If that's the chain of thought that an internally consistent theological doctrine gives rise to, give me flim flammy al a carte religion any day. At least there's a respect for the rule of law.

Zillah

I didn't say I want more fundamentalists in the world, I said I have more respect for them intellectually. Don't conflate like with respect.

Húrin

LZ5by5 wrote: »

You gotta help me out here man, what is a "good" fundamentalist?

Those who are not extremists. I don't think that fundamentalist is being used correctly. Not everyone who is enthusiastic believer is a "fundamentalist" but that seems to be what the word is being stretched to.

Wicknight wrote: »

That doesn't really work. There are some very dumb religions and religious views out there, and equally some very immoral religions and religious views out there.

What would make a person an intellectual or moral inferior in your opinion?

Stupid and immoral thoughts and deeds, and general conduct. Not just an opinion that disagrees with mine.

What makes no sense is looking down on people who for all appearances are intelligent or good people, simply because they also are religious.

Zombrex

Húrin wrote: »

Stupid and immoral thoughts and deeds, and general conduct. Not just an opinion that disagrees with mine.

Well yes obviously, but you were apparently saying that you shouldn't feel someone's views are dumb or immoral if they are religious. Which clearly doesn't work. There are plenty of dumb and immoral views and ideas in religions.

Dumb and immoral views shouldn't get a pass simply because someone says "...that's my religion, respect it!"

Húrin wrote: »

What makes no sense is looking down on people who for all appearances are intelligent or good people, simply because they also are religious.

No, I look down on people who are dumb and immoral and hide behind religion as justifying those beliefs.

The classic example are those who try and justify genocide in the Old Testament because God said it was ok.

That is dumb and immoral. I'm not going to go "oh that is ok" just because it is justified by a supernatural deity.

Húrin

Wicknight wrote: »

Well yes obviously, but you were apparently saying that you shouldn't feel someone's views are dumb or immoral if they are religious. Which clearly doesn't work. There are plenty of dumb and immoral views and ideas in religions.

Dumb and immoral views shouldn't get a pass simply because someone says "...that's my religion, respect it!"

No, I was saying that those who think that all people who are religious are stupid or immoral are wrong.

I still have not understood why atheists are such sticklers for absolute moral laws... you're not supposed to believe in them!

No, I look down on people who are dumb and immoral and hide behind religion as justifying those beliefs.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The kind of atheist who lives their comfortable western life thinking that the Christian is the immoral one, even if said person spends their entire life helping the less fortunate of the world - that annoys me a lot. Nobody is immoral or stupid just because they are a Christian.

vibe666

deep down? no, sorry but I just can't.

don't get me wrong, i'm not going to take the p1ss out of someone who holds a strong religious belief in public (the internet is an entirely different beast tho, ye eejits! ), i have religious family members, but i find it very hard to take any adult seriously who still holds a strong belief in any kind of religion, no matter what it is.

any more than I could take someone seriously who still believed in ghosts and goblins, monsters under the bed or santa claus.

i recently found out that someone i know quite well (or at least I thought I did) was a seriously religious person and I pretty much lost about 90% of the respect I had for him overnight, despite the fact he is still the same person and does a good job and we can still have a laugh and a joke about most things, i just don't look at him the same way now I know this about him.

how, in the 21st century an otherwise intelligent, well educated, rational human being can still closely follow any religion is baffling beyond words to me, i just don't understand it at all and i look forward to the day when everyone comes to their senses and stop fighting over who nailed who's imaginary friend to a plank and the reasons why some other imaginary infallible creator would want us to mutilate babies by cutting the tips off their knobs when it was supposed to have been made in his (perfect) image, but then won't cut their hair for their whole f**king lives.

grrrr.

/rant.

dvpower

Húrin wrote: »

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The kind of atheist who lives their comfortable western life thinking that the Christian is the immoral one, even if said person spends their entire life helping the less fortunate of the world - that annoys me a lot. Nobody is immoral or stupid just because they are a Christian.

How about those Christians who say that atheists are all going to be punished in hell for eternity, even if said atheists spends their entire life helping the less fortunate of the world - would they annoy you a lot?

Húrin

dvpower wrote: »

How about those Christians who say that atheists are all going to be punished in hell for eternity, even if said atheists spends their entire life helping the less fortunate of the world - would they annoy you a lot?

Yes, they do! Same kind of bull****! But at least they aren't saying that such people are their moral inferiors.

Galvasean

This thread reminded me of this comic:


Honestly, I can't respect someone's beliefs if, to me, they seem ridiculous and/or not grounded in reality. To that end I wouldn't respect the vast majority of religious beliefs.
That is not to say I cannot respect someone who holds religious beliefs, however there are lines that (for me) must be drawn. For example, if someone persisted in being a Young Earth Creationist (I know you're all probably sick of that example but bear with me) I don't think I could honestly trust a word that came out of their mouth because, to me, their character is essentially flawed by a massive irrationality.

dvpower

Húrin wrote: »

Yes, they do! Same kind of bull****! But at least they aren't saying that such people are their moral inferiors.

Wouldn't you say that someone who agrees with the proposition that an atheist who spends their entire life helping the less fortunate of the world ought to be punished for an eternity in hell, just for their atheism, is morally questionable?

Húrin

dvpower wrote: »

Wouldn't you say that someone who agrees with the proposition that an atheist who spends their entire life helping the less fortunate of the world ought to be punished for an eternity in hell, just for their atheism, is morally questionable?

If they were happy about it yes I would have my doubts. But if like many Christians they stoically accepted it as a matter of Biblical interpretation, I think that's OK. I would disagree with them but I wouldn't look down on them as moral inferiors to me.

The snooty atheist has no such constraint.