NAMA - 90 Billion to our national debt. Accountants, Lawyers & Bankers get rich

andrewdeerpark

Looking at NAMA this is the great tribunal like scam of our generation (in my thirties). We are going to have our lost generation much like Japan's of the 90's, all the plebs pay high taxes while the connected elite reinvent their lost wealth of the last 2 years through NAMA.

I am attempting to start this thread because does anyone not see what is happening. This makes Charlie Haughey look like a saint; remember he only recalled the dail to save 1 of his friends: Larry Goodman, this is the FF tent taken to another level all together.

How will we all get done: FEES.

Remember all those tribunals, the lawyers, accountants and investigators made their fortunes through fees, the same will happen here, it will be under the radar and build up slowly but mark my words (you can print this post off tonight and date it) in 20 years time billions of euros will be paid to accountants (like Ernest and Young: Anglo Irish Auditors), lawyers, bankers, estate agents, engineers and who ever else is well connected for the contracts of management out of NAMA.

This is the army deafness, compo culture job of our generation and not one opposition voice has picked up on this fatal weakness in the legislation.

I love this country and work hard for the society I am part of, but I am p****d of with the constant cute huers creaming from the top while I and thousands like me work to sustain their elite lifestyle and the government constantly con the mob with these bailout schemes.

Give me a firesale of assets any day, have the sharp pain over 2 years and be done with it instead of this NAMA, saviour of the elite with their fees.

dresden8

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

I love this country and work hard for the society I am part of, .

Seriously, what's there to love? Not taking the piss, what? Seriously.

AlekSmart

What a cracker of a post from Andrewbeechpark and as far as I`m concerned its RIGHT ON THE MONEY :mad:

Even here,at the very commencement of NAMA`s proceedings we read of "Valuation Appeals Procedures" etc etc.
The entire document appears to reek of pre-installed "consultant-friendly" pathways down which those well connected folks will ramble and draw down "Fees" for it !

The nature and depth to which Irish Public Administration (largely Fíanna Fáil) melded with the Builder/Developer cabal will probably never be fully realized.

Andrewdeerpark is SO correct...This consequence of essentially questionable Public Administration SHOULD be faced up to NOW and whatever hit`s are to be taken should be taken NOW...

NAMA,for all its pretensions as a well thought out response is little more than a combination of a Bookies Shop and a Pawnbrokers......both testimony to the essential optomists guide to the galaxy !!

Some teasers and general pointers such as the Dún Laoighre/Rathdown-Liam Carroll case will,I suspect, have a very short public shelf-life before a constant barrage of postponments,reassignments and yawn inducing interminable deposition hearings finally sweep it all off the media`s coverage list.

This one,like the rest will be sorted quitely,discreetly and with little detail emerging in to the public arena...that is after all how Gentlemen do business

SkepticOne

The biggest damage is not financial but social. There is little chance of social cohesion when people realise they are being shafted by those in power and their friends. How are the necessary sacrifices going by ordinary people to get the country back on its feet?

andrewdeerpark

Thank God a response (thank you AlekSmart) at least some folks can see the scam here, I looked through the political forum and saw a weak NAMA posting and thought to myself people did not see what is happening or they just did not care....

We all have to wake up, our generation is smarter (I would like to think so anyway) so hopefully its not to late to stop this beast from being born.

Referring to dresden8 I still love a lot of the people in this country and I am finished with apathy and muttering discontent under my pint in the pub, now is the time to speak out, I have 2 young childern and do not want to see them graduating into our generations mess.

dresden8

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Referring to dresden8 I still love a lot of the people in this country and I am finished with apathy and muttering discontent under my pint in the pub, now is the time to speak out, I have 2 young childern and do not want to see them graduating into our generations mess.

I have been shouting out for the last 10 years. The celtic tiger cubs I was talking to treated me as an 80's throwback and a heretic. Unfortunately I was proven right and they are stuck in 100k negative equity.

But still, who listens to old fogies? Let them piss off and die and let the young turks take over. Whoever learnt anything from history anyway?

bernardo mac

You are on the ball folks.I remember Cowan's scrap thursday address to business types at the RDS in Autumn2008 and how he was praised for his rousing exhortations to accept necessary patriotic sacrifices.He received rapturous applause from a sycophantic audience and gulled media observers. Now we know for certain who will carry the greatest burden.This country is destined for turbulent waters indeed, but guess whose wearing the expensive life jackets...

heyjude

What I was alarmed about is that while the comptroller and auditor general has been tasked with inspecting NAMA's books, they won't be carrying out their first review for five years !

This alarms me for two reasons, firstly five years is a very long time especially when some coverage has suggested that NAMA's job will take 7-10 years to complete, so they could be almost finished before the first review takes place. The second reason is that five years will in all likelihood be a couple of years after the next general election(if the government serves their full term), so its possible that really bad news could be buried(or at least not become public knowledge) until after voting is well over. I'd much prefer to see a review every 1-2 years just to ensure that NAMA is working as planned and its actions are safeguarding the taxpayers interests and not building up huge liabilities for the future, while only looking after the interests of the banks and/or property developers.

andrewdeerpark

dresden8 wrote: »

But still, who listens to old fogies? Let them piss off and die and let the young turks take over. Whoever learnt anything from history anyway?

Some of my best friends are old fogies hence I am in the fortunate position that I am not in negative equity and / or have a house in Bulgaria so not all my generation were caught. I accept your point on history and its lessons rarely learnt... maybe our generation has to suffer such fate!

How did we blow such a run of investment from the 90's and end up with NAMA? Only the protected professions: accountants, lawyers and well connected will prosper in the next 20 years just like old days ... bringing back DeValera days, who knows the catholic church may have a renaissance!

Spudmonkey

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

in 20 years time billions of euros will be paid to accountants (like Ernest and Young: Anglo Irish Auditors), lawyers, bankers, estate agents, engineers and who ever else is well connected for the contracts of management out of NAMA.

What with being an engineer, I'd like to know how I could see some of these billions??

Sand

Join Fianna Fail?

Make no mistake - NAMA will be setup to reward the banks as much as possible and to punish ordinary people as much as possible.

Tipsy Mac

It's sad when you see your country brought to its knees and then see it shot a number of times in the back of the head. I can't see myself being able to sustain myself within the country with it's current resources in the next couple of years, I can see a civil war coming.

Sand

Fianna Fail know this country better than anyone else. They are planning to be re-elected in 2012. There is no civil war coming.

andrewdeerpark

Spudmonkey wrote: »

What with being an engineer, I'd like to know how I could see some of these billions??

Get with the real engineering program Spudmonkey remember maps will have to be redrawn, boundaries fought over, health & safety, half complete buildings recertified etc

Remember this will all need engineering certification a real gravy train.... not to mention the legal appearence fees for all the court sittings that will happen over these disputed lands.

The people that will make a killing from this system in order are:

1. FF elite and well connected
2. Accountants and Auditors
3. Bankers
4. Legal profession
4. Engineers

As regards FF being clever, agree with that one however this is the first time an FF government have to clean up (or attempt to) their own mess historically the opposition get a stint in government after FF make unpopular decisions then are voted out next time around, this time is different!

Also great to see we still have some me-feiners in the post, with the suggestion to join FF and feather their own nest to the detriment of the country as a whole.

tlev

Sucks that I'm still a student then...no potential billions for me since I'm not part of the club. The only hope that we can have is that if Ireland were to borrow the money because it is 90bn they dont have, whoever they borrow it from has very strict covenants in place detailiing exactly what that money can be spent on etc.

SkepticOne

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

4. Legal profession

The legal profession will return to make another killing at the tribunal set up to investigate NAMA when people realize it was a disaster in 15 or so years time.

Raskolnikov

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

I can see a civil war coming.

As if :P

Frankly, we get the politicians we deserve. Look at Fianna Fáiler, Michael "The Stroke" Fahy. He was actually jailed for stealing taxpayers money, yet he subsequently tops the poll in the local elections :eek:

Now look at the public reaction to NAMA. Most people I know will pretty much shrug their shoulders at its inception. Meanwhile, some of these people will be the first on Joe Duffy complaining that the yearly child supplement payment has been reduced. NAMA will end up costing several times more than a few poxy hundred that they're losing from the child supplement payment. Despite this, very little public objection to NAMA.

I'm afraid people are easily fooled and bamboozled by large numbers.

ei.sdraob

Raskolnikov wrote: »

As if :P

Frankly, we get the politicians we deserve. Look at Fianna Fáiler, Michael "The Stroke" Fahy. He was actually jailed for stealing taxpayers money, yet he subsequently tops the poll in the local elections :eek:

Now look at the public reaction to NAMA. Most people I know will pretty much shrug their shoulders at its inception. Meanwhile, some of these people will be the first on Joe Duffy complaining that the yearly child supplement payment has been reduced. NAMA will end up costing several times more than a few poxy hundred that they're losing from the child supplement payment. Despite this, very little public objection to NAMA.

I'm afraid people are easily fooled and bamboozled by large numbers.

Then we need to dumb it down

NAMA == 10 to 20 An Bord Snip Reports implemented in full (we already have war over 1 with no one wanting the cuts this autumn)

or

NAMA == closing all public infrastructure (Schools,gardai,water) and all services (medical, welfare, grants) everything for 2 years!

:cool:

and for what?

i will never ever ever vote FF or Greens and remind everyone I know before election of the evil and fraud these have commited

tlev

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Then we need to dumb it down

NAMA == 10 to 20 An Bord Snip Reports implemented in full (we already have war over 1 with no one wanting the cuts this autumn)

or

NAMA == closing all public infrastructure (Schools,gardai,water) and all services (medical, welfare, grants) everything for 2 years!

:cool:

and for what?

i will never ever ever vote FF or Greens and remind everyone I know before election of the evil and fraud these have commited

Unfortunately you can remind everyone you know until the cows come home and still the majority of the masses are uninformed and clueless about most things happening and blindly accept things shovelled to them by the government. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't have been living well beyond our means and seen that placing all our eggs in the construction basket wasn't a great idea.

unwyse

a bit late picking up this thread but hats off to andrewdeerpark, you are right on the money with all of your comments.like yourself i too have children and it breaks my heart to think of their future in this godforsaken country.all of our futures have been sold down the swanee by possibly the most corrupt government in western europe. this shower of cnuts have screwed us forever. something has to give and the sooner we irish people get up off our arses and demand change the better,but as an earlier poster said it'll be the "Talk to Joe "mob who will make loads of noise and achieve nothing. a general strike might be a good place to begin but unfortunately its nearly impossible to get even 2 people to agree on the color white.the politicions have suceeded in their missions to enslave us all by confusion and deception.

bluestar87

'We should it all back to Maggie and apologise for the condition of it'

Spudmonkey

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Get with the real engineering program Spudmonkey remember maps will have to be redrawn, boundaries fought over, health & safety, half complete buildings recertified etc

Remember this will all need engineering certification a real gravy train.... not to mention the legal appearence fees for all the court sittings that will happen over these disputed lands.

Engineering is a pretty broad discipline... We don't all certify buildings and draw maps...

rasper

Sand wrote: »

Fianna Fail know this country better than anyone else. They are planning to be re-elected in 2012. There is no civil war coming.

No truer word, the press and the people will moan and groan and talk of utter rebellion and retaliation however when polling day arrive only 2/3 of the electorate who even bothered to register will even show up, and 40% of those will be FF supporters

andrew

In this thread: Begrudgers who regret their choice of profession.

andrewdeerpark

andrew wrote: »

In this thread: Begrudgers who regret their choice of profession.

[FONT=&quot]Obviously part of our professional gentlemen’s class of thieves: (Accountants, Bankers, Lawyers and barristers come to mind) sitting as at the bottom of this NAMA rainbow waiting for you share of the crock of gold while hospitals close, schools fall apart and the lower middle class get squeezed even more by the taxman.

A real patriot! [/FONT]

andrew

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

[FONT=&quot]Obviously part of our professional gentlemen’s class of thieves: (Accountants, Bankers, Lawyers and barristers come to mind) sitting as at the bottom of this NAMA rainbow waiting for you share of the crock of gold while hospitals close, schools fall apart and the lower middle class get squeezed even more by the taxman.

A real patriot! [/FONT]

"Obviously part of our professional gentlemen’s class of thieves." :rolleyes:.

So your problem with this whole mess isn't that the government might overpay for assets or something like that....but that they'll have to pay professionals to carry out their plans. What would you prefer they did?

andrewdeerpark

andrew wrote: »

So your problem with this whole mess isn't that the government might overpay for assets or something like that....but that they'll have to pay professionals to carry out their plans. What would you prefer they did?

Set the price of all fees low in concrete in the initial bill, give the work to graduates (if the professional classes don't like the fees) or emigrants (not to many Polish bankers, barristers & accountants about in the Irish Closed shop) their is plenty of then rolling out of college currently with no jobs and no prospect of one in the near future. Have all fees published on a website weekly and do not allow them claim milking expenses like our tribunals, have a read of Wednesday's article by Kevin Myers:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/claiming-expenses-for-a-toblerone-smacks-of-pennypinching-of-the-most-undignified-kind-1844599.html

Give you an idea of one section of fat cat D4 thieves we are up against here, without such safeguards the taxpayer will be ripped slowly and decisively over the next 20 years.

andrew

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Set the price of all fees low in concrete in the initial bill, give the work to graduates (if the professional classes don't like the fees) or emigrants (not to many Polish bankers, barristers & accountants about in the Irish Closed shop) their is plenty of then rolling out of college currently with no jobs and no prospect of one in the near future. Have all fees published on a website weekly and do not allow them claim milking expenses like our tribunals, have a read of Wednesday's article by Kevin Myers:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/claiming-expenses-for-a-toblerone-smacks-of-pennypinching-of-the-most-undignified-kind-1844599.html

Give you an idea of one section of fat cat D4 thieves we are up against here, without such safeguards the taxpayer will be ripped slowly and decisively over the next 20 years.

Its crazy to suggest that people just out of college would have the expertise to deal with such a complicated scheme. The money saved paying them less would probably be an order of magnitude smaller than the amount they would cost the taxpayer through doing a poor job. If there was an earthquake and your house was badly damaged, would you rather pay an experienced professional to fix it, or an apprentice? You're overestimating the number of experienced professionals there are who have the knowledge to do this sort of thing. It's not as if Poland is a hotbed of financial learning. They've been exporting builders, not financial analysts.

And given most people don't have a clue how much these people should be paid to do their job (ie. how much these people are worth) then whats the point in publishing how much they're paid. It'd just give people random figures to bandy about without knowing what they're talking about. I only glanced at Myers' article, because Myers is an idiot. But I agree, frivolous expenses are bad and shouldn't be allowed. But seriously, skimping on how much we pay the people who'll help to fix our economy probably wouldn't be a good thing.

newname

But seriously, skimping on how much we pay the people who'll help to fix our economy probably wouldn't be a good thing.

But the thing is these people will charge big money whether they help the economy or not

andrewdeerpark

You're overestimating the number of experienced professionals there are who have the knowledge to do this sort of thing.

You mean the professionals who created this economic mess we are in right now, did not see the property bubble, happy to feed the flames (cheap easy money for all) as long as the fat cat bonuses, pensions, expense accounts etc rolled in, I have no issue giving top graduates a crack at the problem now, they will hardly make it much worse!

Agree in that the Polish financial expertise is not that hectic, I should have said Czech or some of those unemployed from wall street (however they may have the same bad habits as our own lot of elite bankers and auditors).

Anyway the point still stands on fees and stopping the gravy train before it ballons like our tribunals.

andrew

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

You mean the professionals who created this economic mess we are in right now, did not see the property bubble, happy to feed the flames (cheap easy money for all) as long as the fat cat bonuses, pensions, expense accounts etc rolled in, I have no issue giving top graduates a crack at the problem now, they will hardly make it much worse!

Agree in that the Polish financial expertise is not that hectic, I should have said Czech or some of those unemployed from wall street (however they may have the same bad habits as our own lot of elite bankers and auditors).

Anyway the point still stands on fees and stopping the gravy train before it ballons like our tribunals.

In all seriousness though, top graduates could probably do a significantly worse job than those with experience. Not all financial professionals are as crap as you imagine them to be. Expertise will always come at a premium. I just think that where you see a gravy train there may actually exist a justified premium.

andrewdeerpark

newname wrote: »

But the thing is these people will charge big money whether they help the economy or not

That's the way the professional classes work, a barrister looses a case in court he gets paid, the auditors of Anglo Irish Bank, Ernst & Young, missed Sean Fitzparticks and Permanent TSB's millions flowing in and out off the books over several years audits and they got paid top dollar (OK euro), your accountant screws up your books, the taxman finds a big hole in an audit you get screwed and the accountant get paid with no liability.

What a setup and well said newname roll on NAMA.

andrewdeerpark

andrew wrote: »

In all seriousness though, top graduates could probably do a significantly worse job than those with experience. Not all financial professionals are as crap as you imagine them to be. Expertise will always come at a premium. I just think that where you see a gravy train there may actually exist a justified premium.

You cannot give these experts a blank cheque regarding fees are you suggesting no cap, transparency or disclosure of fees? How do you reward these experts on a performance basis when this is a long term setup?

andrew

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

You cannot give these experts a blank cheque regarding fees are you suggesting no cap, transparency or disclosure of fees? How do you reward these experts on a performance basis when this is a long term setup?

Of course you can't; I completely agree. They should be paid fairly, and on a performance basis. This is a lot easier said than done though. I mean, how do you even come up with the criteria upon which these people should be measured? All I know is that they'll be paid a premium. And that you can't put a cap on how much these people will be paid because of the amount of uncertainty that exists. And that they deserve to be paid a premium because they're experts and have other more lucrative stuff they could do. But yeah, transparency all they way.

andrewdeerpark

andrew wrote: »

Of course you can't; I completely agree. They should be paid fairly, and on a performance basis. This is a lot easier said than done though. I mean, how do you even come up with the criteria upon which these people should be measured? All I know is that they'll be paid a premium. And that you can't put a cap on how much these people will be paid because of the amount of uncertainty that exists. And that they deserve to be paid a premium because they're experts and have other more lucrative stuff they could do. But yeah, transparency all they way.

I accept you point on banking and auditing fees and bonuses, this is a global banking problem that was one of the reasons behind the global irresponsible lending practices, bankers were rewarded for the amount of the business generated rather than the quality of the business they completed. We need a lead from the US and UK on this one, which we are not getting, if this is not resolved then the global crisis will return in 30-40 years again.

Looking at history, globally paying top dollar in banking / auditing rarely delivers top performance NAMA will go down this road unfortunately.

AlekSmart

crazy to suggest that people just out of college would have the expertise to deal with such a complicated scheme. The money saved paying them less would probably be an order of magnitude smaller than the amount they would cost the taxpayer through doing a poor job. If there was an earthquake and your house was badly damaged, would you rather pay an experienced professional to fix it, or an apprentice? You're overestimating the number of experienced professionals there are who have the knowledge to do this sort of thing.

Andrew,I don`t think that is andrewdeerpark`s point as such.

One of the major contributory factors to Ireland Teo fucxxing itself up was the creation of an entire social strata of overblown,overegarded,largely unproductive "Professionals" who were given serious amount of credence by successive Governments comprised of small-town shysters in the main.

Thus we came to rely on the opinions of Estate Agents and Auctioneers as being worthy enough to base entire Administrative Strategies upon.
We collectively saw nothing wrong with paying Liam Lawlor "Consultancy Fees" to advise the Westlink Consortium,as we saw nothing amiss in Frank Dunlop lurking about outside Dublin County Council chambers to glad-hand the members.

We now inhabit a State mired deep in a swamp of "Professionals",very few of whom I would see as having anything of worth to contribute to disentangling Ireland Teo from the nets in which it is now ensnared..

Indeed,we are now witnessing the emboldened "professionals" in the Banking and Financial sectors starting to lash back at those whom they have already Royally Fcuxxed up.

Looking at history, globally paying top dollar in banking / auditing rarely delivers top performance NAMA will go down this road unfortunately.

There is already quite a furore in the USA concerning how many of the major Banking Groups,having repaid their Governments Funding injection,now decide to reinstate their somewhat incredible staff "Bonus " strategies.

These "Bonus" payments were instrumental in driving Banking and Financial Sector staff to perform all sorts of snake-oil tricks to improve their ratings and thus earn vast Bonus payments or stock-options.

The last thing we need here right now is anything smelling of this.

I`m even more downbeat that andrewdeerpark..I see vast tracts of Irelands Financial and Property sectors as being polluted and toxic,every bit as much as the debt`s they engineered.

To read of an entire soverign Country being brought to the brink of destitution by the crassly inadvisable actions of just 50 Individuals SHOULD be making us all VERY sceptical of allowing the same close-knit group to continue to dominate through their family and friend nominee structure.

Lockstep

Raskolnikov wrote: »

As if :P

Frankly, we get the politicians we deserve. Look at Fianna Fáiler, Michael "The Stroke" Fahy. He was actually jailed for stealing taxpayers money, yet he subsequently tops the poll in the local elections :eek:

Sickening isn't it?

I live in Connemara, and the man is one of my councillors.

DublinWriter

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Give me a firesale of assets any day, have the sharp pain over 2 years and be done with it instead of this NAMA, saviour of the elite with their fees.

There's a golden rule in business - don't throw good money after bad.

Colour me simple, but I just don't get it - our hospitals and A&E wards are akin to something from the third world, yet the government are bending over backwards to save banks and property developers?

bernardo mac

and to add insult, bankers,lawyers,developers and politicians do not have to suffer on hospital waiting lists.Ever see one on a trolley?

AlekSmart

And that they deserve to be paid a premium because they're experts and have other more lucrative stuff they could do.

I`m not so sure I can agree with the above sentiment at all.

Surely a professional in any field will have access to a salary/renumeration package commensurate with that profession.

For example,an incremental salary scale should allow for the accquisition of experience itself with some allowances also payable for extra qualifications etc.

The notion of paying Off-Scale additional sums for specific tasks is one of the factors which contributed greatly to the level of "Professional Inflation" which is but one element of our current melt-down.

This,among other elements,virtually destroyed the ethos of "Public Service" in the very arena which most required it and replaced it with pure undiluted greed.

In the current National Emergency I cannot even begin to think of what "Stuff" could be "More Lucrative" than directing one`s proffessional acumen towards rescuing one`s own society from self-destruction.......or has Irish University education left all that Ancient Greek Civilization stuff behind it too.?????

Liam Byrne

bernardo mac wrote: »

Ever see one on a trolley?

Er, Haughey ? Almost every time the tribunal asked him to appear to explain his finances.

bernardo mac

Haughey was good at a PR stroke,maybe to stray a little further from the thread,story in Wexford still is that he drove the state [merc?]car into Tinnock Bridge,on the N11.Wrecked car and bridge.Now Tinnock roundabout ,access to motorway.[Haughey roundabout?]His chauffeur had originally refused to drive[drink] so the Boss did ,with drink on board ,in a hurry back to the Dail.Did not appear in Dail,or delayed due to riding accident.Bridge was rebuilt in amazingly quick time.Power,money and neck winneth

andrew

AlekSmart wrote: »

I`m not so sure I can agree with the above sentiment at all.

Surely a professional in any field will have access to a salary/renumeration package commensurate with that profession.

Exactly. My point is that a salary/renumeration package commensurate with administering NAMA will be a relatively large one due to the expertise required. A lot of people don't understand that there is a lot of expertise and experience required, and will feel that these people are getting paid too much, which I think is wrong.

For example,an incremental salary scale should allow for the accquisition of experience itself with some allowances also payable for extra qualifications etc.

The notion of paying Off-Scale additional sums for specific tasks is one of the factors which contributed greatly to the level of "Professional Inflation" which is but one element of our current melt-down.

This,among other elements,virtually destroyed the ethos of "Public Service" in the very arena which most required it and replaced it with pure undiluted greed.

In the current National Emergency I cannot even begin to think of what "Stuff" could be "More Lucrative" than directing one`s proffessional acumen towards rescuing one`s own society from self-destruction.......or has Irish University education left all that Ancient Greek Civilization stuff behind it too.?????

People with expertise will work for whoever pays them a sum commensurate with their skills. It's not very patriotic, but it's the truth.

andrewdeerpark

andrew wrote: »

Exactly. My point is that a salary/renumeration package commensurate with administering NAMA will be a relatively large one due to the expertise required. A lot of people don't understand that there is a lot of expertise and experience required, and will feel that these people are getting paid too much, which I think is wrong.

People with expertise will work for whoever pays them a sum commensurate with their skills. It's not very patriotic, but it's the truth.

So here is NAMA a communist style government bailout of the developers and banks from free market economics, and you are saying this communist vehicle should reward those administering it using free market economics to determine their fees, their is rich irony in that proposal!

As I have said in previous treads its capitalism for the peasants and communism for the well connected and elite when the market fails (on the downside) for those settings the rules, what a country.

EastWallGirl

This is from Shane Ross in The Independent yesterday:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/high-as-kites-on-nama-trip-1849287.html

Andrewdeerpark:
I accept you point on banking and auditing fees and bonuses, this is a global banking problem that was one of the reasons behind the global irresponsible lending practices, bankers were rewarded for the amount of the business generated rather than the quality of the business they completed. We need a lead from the US and UK on this one, which we are not getting, if this is not resolved then the global crisis will return in 30-40 years again.


The thing is that it is only international to the extent that the tentacles of how some of these banks spread around the world. It is certainly not international countries with half decent banking regulations have money to invest in their economies (economies spend out of recession not tax) while other countries are investing in education and R&D we will looking after 50 builders and the spare change will be going to pay out on behalf of the Catholic Church. Ireland is affected because Ireland as a country slavishly follows the USA and UK in everything and it has to stop.

There are no signals from the UK and USA as they want it to go back to business as usual, they dont want banking regulation, Ben Bernake does not want regulation and he is the one in charge.

Until Ireland looks around at other economic models (and a half baked version of a swedish model does not count) then you are going to keep going boom and bust you do not have he economies of scale that the US and UK have and we are going to see that in all its harsh reality in the next few years.

The smart economy is only going to happen here depsite the government not because of it, mainly becasue poeple are going to leave and other governments are throwing money at R&D and education.

I absolutely agree that it is depressing and the Shane Ross article really brings it home.

What I never understood is that Anglo Irish is not a cheque clearing bank, all the bank drafts I saw were underwritten by AIB, so it should of been allowed to fall but obviously that would of created issues for AIB.

To underline our problems I was in Italy a few weeks and everything I touched was made in Italy from cheap childrens balls to mens ties, Italy may be considered a basket case but it is a basket case with a manufacturing base.

I personally think that there is a need and demand for a co-operative banks or a bank that runs on Islamic principles, people are going to have to vote with what money they have left.

andrewdeerpark

EastWallGirl wrote: »

This is from Shane Ross in The Independent yesterday:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/high-as-kites-on-nama-trip-1849287.html

Ireland is affected because Ireland as a country slavishly follows the USA and UK in everything and it has to stop.

There are no signals from the UK and USA as they want it to go back to business as usual, they dont want banking regulation, Ben Bernake does not want regulation and he is the one in charge.

Excellent atricle from Shane Ross again, we can only hope the supreme court agrees with Justice Kelly however behind the scences this weekend the bankers and government will have been working to undermine his ruling and keep the NAMA con alive, so I would not be surprised by his decision being overturned, and Carroll limping along for the next 100 days into NAMA so we cannot test the real value of his assets in a firesale.

Never underestimate how corrupt this country actually is at the very top.

US and UK are accepted as the top financial districts of the western world so it not surprising we take our lead from them. Remember decisions in the UK high courts still effect Irish law to this day, we may have our own constitution however the power England has over us is still considerable to this day. Plus all our large institutions have listings in the London stock exchange with their rules.

It is worrying the way the UK and US have walker away from serious regulation changes of the banking system but then again money and lobbying wins the day here as well. The lessons of history are rarely learnt.

ParkRunner

Totally agree OP, I cannot see how this NAMA plan can work. It seems to be FF's last ditch attempt to keep the economy alive through sustaining an over inflated property market.

What I would like to know is who is going to buy these assets once the government takes them? There isn't a whole lot of money floating around in the economy these days with the level of unemployment and the array of levies on those working.

I don't see what the fear is in letting the market decide for itself what the correct value is for these assets. At least at true market value you would have sales and tax revenue and you would even still have work for the accountants, lawyers and bankers. But I can't see too many people scrambling to buy an inflated asset in a place where there are no resources and the buildings around you are becoming wrecks. There is far too much uncertainty regarding employment, future income and property prices for people to be taking a punt on this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0803/1224251928895.html

From the Irish Times:

Nama will use its own method to value the loans and underlying assets. This will be based on what the department calls the economic value of the assets, as against the market value which would be achieved if the underlying properties were put on the market today.

However, banking sources said that a free-for-all, with each bank acting unilaterally resulting from the collapse of a large property group, could cause problems for Nama.

It could force the flooding of the market with properties, with writedowns of up to 80 per cent being forced on sellers. This would have a damaging effect across the entire market and jeopardise the long-term economic valuation model being created for Nama, leading to distressed pricing across the market, according to sources

Just shows how over inflated these assets really are..up to 80%!

The Minstrel

Strange that there isn't even a wikipedia entry for Liam Carroll.

andrewdeerpark

The Minstrel wrote: »

Strange that there isn't even a wikipedia entry for Liam Carroll.

If he survives tomorrows liquidation threat and rebuilds his empire he will definitely make it in their.

Since he owns google’s headquarters in Ireland it is strange..

AlekSmart

EastWall Girl wrote...

Until Ireland looks around at other economic models (and a half baked version of a swedish model does not count) then you are going to keep going boom and bust you do not have he economies of scale that the US and UK have and we are going to see that in all its harsh reality in the next few years.

The smart economy is only going to happen here depsite the government not because of it, mainly becasue poeple are going to leave and other governments are throwing money at R&D and education.

I absolutely agree that it is depressing and the Shane Ross article really brings it home.

Excellent post and I feel it raises a point not yet generally realized,that an emigration cycle has already begun.
We all know and see that the large numbers of Eastern European "Gastarbeiter" have returned to their native countries OR to other less stultified EU countries.

However what many do not yet grasp is the by now steady flow of Irish people leaving the country.
Initially it`s the younger,single qualified and mobile people,but I`m now seeing and hearing the somewhat more embedded married with young children type talking of looking far beyond Hatch 17 for their future.

Shane Ross continues to be a shining example of why we NEED a seperate upper-chamber or Senate in our Democratic System.
I have,in the past had exchanges with him and always found him to be ready to listen and unafraid to use his Seanad position to ask arkward questions and make unpopular points.

He is far from perfect BUT he is head and shoulders above the individuals so obviously out of their depth in running th current incarnation of Éire Teo.

However,andrewdeerpark`s warning also should be heeded....

Never underestimate how corrupt this country actually is at the very top.

Mr Justice Kelly`s all to obvious reluctance to fawn over bottles of coloured smoke being waved aloft by Liam Carrols well remunerated Senior Counsel will have most certainly caused a sharp intake of breath in Dublin 4 and environs.

I have little doubt but the ruling élite had plenty to discuss over the corned beef and cabbage this weekend.

I`ll bet Mr Justice Kelly`s telephone and e-mail systems were glowing from the volume of observations by interested parties.....

I also believe that Justice Kelly`s remarks from the bench represented the first true assessment of the current situation by a senior administrative figure.

We as a people have to face up to a situation whereby 50 unelected and in many cases reclusive,but VERY well connected business figures essentially took-control of a soverign economy and royally shafted it.

Now,for me,the essential point is HOW were these 50 people ABLE to get themselves into this position and to what extent did they recieve assistance from within.

This current situation is FAR more serious than the 700 years of colonial oppression etc which we have come to accept as being the root cause of ALL our Country`s problems......This time,for sure we can`t simply blame the British for our destitution !!!

We really should be far more ANGRY about this bloody mess,yet we still follow the Zoe Development line and hope for the best !!!

bernardo mac

Quite interesting point AS re.our history of woes within the British Empire.It was often the local elite or materially better off Irish who continued to prosper or maintain a good standard of living while the majority suffered...the Famine being one example