Anglo- Irish

Richard Cranium

I was just wondering, (and I can't seem to find a proper answer in wikipedia) what happened to the Anglo- Irish social class? There was something about them in the Irish Times (I think) a few days ago that got me curious.

Did the majority of them leave the country after independance or are a lot of them still here living completely "normal" Hiberno- Irish lives (semi detached house in the suburbs etc)?

Please excuse my ignorance, I didn't do history for the Leaving Cert so it's all a bit of a mystery to me.

walrusgumble

Richard Cranium wrote: »

I was just wondering, (and I can't seem to find a proper answer in wikipedia) what happened to the Anglo- Irish social class? There was something about them in the Irish Times (I think) a few days ago that got me curious.

Did the majority of them leave the country after independance or are a lot of them still here living completely "normal" Hiberno- Irish lives (semi detached house in the suburbs etc)?

Please excuse my ignorance, I didn't do history for the Leaving Cert so it's all a bit of a mystery to me.

ah ya will find them in certain spots in dublin and the big house in the country.... (only messing - seriously)

well, we still have people like Lord Mountcharles in Slane? All those "Big Houses", still in Ireland, surely the ones still occupied are owned by the Anglo Irish? or are they taken up by the likes of christy de burgh (jesus), Enya and all them celtic tiger winners?

I'd imagine many immigrated. Whatever about during the War of Independence and certainly Civil War, they left during WWII and other ecoonomic problems (more to do with them having better opportunities to do so). Maybe they quietely blended more into the background. I would imagine they might have kept a low profile during the troubles. funny though, while they left the scence, people like one C J Haughey rose up (or tried ) to their way of life.

you have seen they way the "nuveau rich" splashed out and tried to ape them, maybe the Anglo Irish don't stand out as much (notice wise) today (or during the boom years)

Where are Charles Stuart Parnell's descendants gone too?

Judgement Day

Chris de Burgh is the real thing see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_de_Burgh

most of us/them that are left keep the head down below the parapet - at least until Boards.ie came along. Henry Mountcharles and Martin Mansergh being two notable exceptions.

Ibrahimovic91

donnybrook and dalkey and many of them fell into poverty and their descendants live in working class dublin now

TedB

Around a quarter of their number fled in terror following the Civil War when met with IRA barbarity (Burning down their homes, general terrorist tactics) The remaining dwindled down into tiny numbers during the Catholic theocracy.

A surprising number can be found in certain parts of Dublin, but by and large they died out when the priests and philistines came to power.

ejmaztec

TedB wrote: »

Around a quarter of their number fled in terror following the Civil War when met with IRA barbarity (Burning down their homes, general terrorist tactics) The remaining dwindled down into tiny numbers during the Catholic theocracy.

A surprising number can be found in certain parts of Dublin, but by and large they died out when the priests and philistines came to power.

Here's a New York Times link - one of them didn't make it. It's interesting to get an idea as to how the Americans handled the Irish news of the time. There's another link to a pdf file of the NY Times page itself.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D06E0DF113FEE3ABC4D52DFB266838A639EDE

SINN FEINERS KILL SIR ARTHUR VICARS; Ex-Ulster King-of-Arms and Custodian of Crown Jewels Dragged From Bed. HIS HOUSE THEN BURNED

Copyright, 1921, by The New York Times Company. Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES.
April 15, 1921, Friday
Page 3, 468 words
CORK, April 14.--Sir Arthur Vicars, formerly Ulster King-of-Arms and Custodian of the Crown Jewels at Dublin Castle, was assassinated this morning outside his residence, Kilmorna House, Listowel, by a party of armed men. [ END OF FIRST PARAGRAPH ]

pinkypinky

They are most definitely still around but a lot of them also spend part of their time in the UK. Most "big houses" in Ireland is still going to have connections to its original family. For example, Newbridge House in Donabate (Co. Dublin) was bought by the OPW in the 80s but as part of the deal, the Cobbe family retain use of the top floor and stay there for part of the year.

Have a look at the Wikipedia on the Irish peerage - it gives a lot of detail. Many of the Anglo-Irish nobility also have titles in the UK peerage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_peerage

Anatomy Boy

Lots are left, the more famous being Martin Mansergh, Henry Mountcharles, Marquess of Conyngham but there are others;

Westport House; Jeremy Browne, Marquess of Sligo
Stradbally Hall; Cosby Family (Electric Picnic and IMFHA Hound Show)
Glin Castle; Desmond Fitzgerlad, Knight of Glin
Leixlip Castle; Hon. Desmond Guinness
Castle Leslie; Leslie Family
Clonalis House; O'Connor Family, O'Connor Don
Lismore Castle; the Duke of Devonshire comes nowand again
Curraghmore; still lived in by the Le Poer Beresfords
Lissadell; the Gore Booths are gone to England
Howth Caslte; Gaisford St Lawrences'


Garech Browne from Claddagh Records still lives in Luggala I think
Commander Bill King lives in Oranmore Castle with his daughter
Lord and Lady Hemphill live in Co. Galway
Lady ffrench lives in Co. Galway
Lord Killanin of horse-racing fame is still around Galway and Dublin
Lord and Lady Monteagle left for Greta Britain recently (think that was what you saw in the Irish Times)
The last of the Talbots of Malahide died on their estate in Tasmania a few years back


WWI and II killed off many of the heirs to houses and titles so, many of the families died out.
Others were burned out in the 300 houses burned by the IRA in the 20's


The IRA didn't help matters, mainly the burning of 300 homes drove most people away

Morlar

TedB wrote: »

Around a quarter of their number fled in terror following the Civil War when met with IRA barbarity (Burning down their homes, general terrorist tactics) The remaining dwindled down into tiny numbers during the Catholic theocracy.

A surprising number can be found in certain parts of Dublin, but by and large they died out when the priests and philistines came to power.

I am not sure what Anglo-Irish means in this context, many nationalists were/are protestant so I would guess you mean english born people living in Ireland immediately after the war of Independence ? Are you referring to random protestants who 'fled in terror .... IRA barbarity' or people who had previously an involvement with the british administration ? Landlords or others who abused the locals ? The instances of terror against random protestants on the basis of their faith in the republic would pale into insignificance in comparison to what catholics in the north suffered in the intervening period. Or for that matter what catholics in Ireland endured prior to the War of Independence so I think it is important to keep this in context.

There are still plenty of protestants living in Ireland and even though they no longer have the privileged position they once had I am unaware of any form of state /organised discrimination against them within my lifetime.

Re your comment about 'the priests and phillistines coming to power', I would make the point that the catholic clergy had only slightly more influence on Irish affairs than the Church of Ireland/Protestant faith had known before Irish independence.

ejmaztec

Morlar wrote: »

I am not sure what Anglo-Irish means in this context, many nationalists were/are protestant so I would guess you mean english born people living in Ireland immediately after the war of Independence ? Are you referring to random protestants who 'fled in terror .... IRA barbarity' or people who had previously an involvement with the british administration ? Landlords or others who abused the locals ? The instances of terror against random protestants on the basis of their faith in the republic would pale into insignificance in comparison to what catholics in the north suffered in the intervening period. Or for that matter what catholics in Ireland endured prior to the War of Independence so I think it is important to keep this in context.

There are still plenty of protestants living in Ireland and even though they no longer have the privileged position they once had I am unaware of any form of state /organised discrimination against them within my lifetime.

Re your comment about 'the priests and phillistines coming to power', I would make the point that the catholic clergy had only slightly more influence on Irish affairs than the Church of Ireland/Protestant faith had known before Irish independence.

In the case of Sir Arthur Vicars, It's assumed that he was singled out because he was pushing his luck. He apparently had a habit of inviting British soldiers around for tea etc., and was even warned by the local CofI vicar that he was looking for trouble if he didn't keep a low profile. He ignored the advice and was shot dead on the lawn outside Kilmorna House. A lot of artworks and antiques went walkabout as the house was burning to the ground.

Vicars didn't own the house, and was only living there, still under suspicion for having something to do with the theft of Irish Crown Jewels.

getz

Morlar wrote: »

I am not sure what Anglo-Irish means in this context, many nationalists were/are protestant so I would guess you mean english born people living in Ireland immediately after the war of Independence ? Are you referring to random protestants who 'fled in terror .... IRA barbarity' or people who had previously an involvement with the british administration ? Landlords or others who abused the locals ? The instances of terror against random protestants on the basis of their faith in the republic would pale into insignificance in comparison to what catholics in the north suffered in the intervening period. Or for that matter what catholics in Ireland endured prior to the War of Independence so I think it is important to keep this in context.

There are still plenty of protestants living in Ireland and even though they no longer have the privileged position they once had I am unaware of any form of state /organised discrimination against them within my lifetime.

Re your comment about 'the priests and phillistines coming to power', I would make the point that the catholic clergy had only slightly more influence on Irish affairs than the Church of Ireland/Protestant faith had known before Irish independence.

still banging that old drum ?. fact over one third of protestants fled the republic in 1921 out of fear,catholic church has only slightly more influence in the republic?your own goverment report says a lot different.

TedB

Morlar wrote: »

I am not sure what Anglo-Irish means in this context, many nationalists were/are protestant so I would guess you mean english born people living in Ireland immediately after the war of Independence ?

We can count the number of active Protestant Guerrila fighters on literally one hand - a pair of Protestant brothers in co. Tipperary. There were more enrolled in quieter districts, but by and large the Protestant community tried to keep their heads out of the war. What you claim is a MYTH! There was no substantial Protestant support or even membership of the IRA.

In the political movement you are of course correct - but this is hardly a surprise. The Irish Republican political movement was essentially well educated and middle class in nature - ie, Protestants tended to join more readily. But even at this they are an exception, not the rule. People like Ernest Blythe were an anomoly (An Antrim Presbyterian)

Are you referring to random protestants who 'fled in terror .... IRA barbarity' or people who had previously an involvement with the british administration ? Landlords or others who abused the locals ? The instances of terror against random protestants on the basis of their faith in the republic would pale into insignificance in comparison to what catholics in the north suffered in the intervening period.

The abuse suffered by Catholics in the north is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that local Protestants were daily abused during the Civil War by IRA thugs - this includes things as minor as 'commandeering' their property - be it bicycles, cars, food etc. It includes tresspassing, intimidation and actual arson. It also included the mental persecution protestants faced in Co. Cork. Down in Cork most Protestants received a note from the IRA warning them about their activities and placing blame on them for 'condoning' the events in Ulster. This was all paranoid delusions on the IRA part. undoubtedly a few collaborated with the British and later the Free State, but it was clearly INSANE for the protestant community to support the British authorities when their lives were in danger. All the evidence points towards the fact that Protestants by and large kept their mouths shut. Besides - what could they actually know? What could a Protestant actually be able to provide to the British authorities of any real meaningful value? This is such nonsense delusional paranoia with no basis in history. if you are able to provide clear facts then just provide them - Because right now all you are doing is spouting forth the same ill-read predictable Republican drivel.

Or for that matter what catholics in Ireland endured prior to the War of Independence so I think it is important to keep this in context.

What context? What suffering of Catholics before 1919? What on earth are you even talking about? This is entirely irrelevant and does not excuse IRA intimidation.

There are still plenty of protestants living in Ireland and even though they no longer have the privileged position they once had I am unaware of any form of state /organised discrimination against them within my lifetime.

Well d'uh. Protestants went from being around 10-12% of the Free State population to around 2-4% of it now. Part of it is due to dwindling, part of it is due to IRA terrorism, part of it is due to insular Catholicism.

Re your comment about 'the priests and phillistines coming to power', I would make the point that the catholic clergy had only slightly more influence on Irish affairs than the Church of Ireland/Protestant faith had known before Irish independence.

BS. The church may not have had direct influence but our political leaders were dominated by a weird insular catholicism for generations. That is undeniable.

Judgement Day

Suprisingly the descendents of several of the most unpopular Anglo-Irish families are still to be found in Ireland today. I was at school in the 1970s with two of them. For obvious reasons I will not name the families here as certain contributors to these boards seem to have an agenda which is unfinished.

TedB

...

Morlar

getz wrote: »

still banging that old drum ?. fact over one third of protestants fled the republic in 1921 out of fear,catholic church has only slightly more influence in the republic?your own goverment report says a lot different.

I don't think in my entire time on boards I have ever even mentioned protestants in the republic - so I think you have me confused with someone else when you say 'still banging that old drum'.

Perhaps you can keep your comments to responses rather at attempts at getting personal ? Would that not seem like a mature approach ?

Re the Catholic influence over the republic - perhaps it is even greater than the protestant/Church of Ireland influence pre independence. I am not convinced and I don't see you putting forward any evidence to the contrary.

Morlar

TedB wrote: »

We can count the number of active Protestant Guerrila fighters on literally one hand - a pair of Protestant brothers in co. Tipperary. There were more enrolled in quieter districts, but by and large the Protestant community tried to keep their heads out of the war. What you claim is a MYTH! There was no substantial Protestant support or even membership of the IRA.

Where did I say there was substantial protestant support for the IRA ?

If you read what I said, I said that many nationalists were also protestant.

Indeed they were. This is a fact. Throughout the history of Irish republicanism some of the most prominent were protestant. For an overview of this see here ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Nationalist

Unlike loyalism which was almost uniquely exclusive in a sectarian manner.

TedB wrote: »

In the political movement you are of course correct - but this is hardly a surprise. The Irish Republican political movement was essentially well educated and middle class in nature - ie, Protestants tended to join more readily. But even at this they are an exception, not the rule. People like Ernest Blythe were an anomoly (An Antrim Presbyterian)

I never said protestant republicans/nationalists were 'the rule'.

If you are going to reply to a post of mine please try to reply to what I said not what you would perhaps prefer I had said.

TedB wrote: »

The abuse suffered by Catholics in the north is irrelevant.

No - it is not.

TedB wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that local Protestants were daily abused during the Civil War by IRA thugs - this includes things as minor as 'commandeering' their property - be it bicycles, cars, food etc. It includes tresspassing, intimidation and actual arson. It also included the mental persecution protestants faced in Co. Cork. Down in Cork most Protestants received a note from the IRA warning them about their activities and placing blame on them for 'condoning' the events in Ulster. This was all paranoid delusions on the IRA part.

I have never said any of the above were not true.

TedB wrote: »

undoubtedly a few collaborated with the British and later the Free State,

I would agree that some did - as many would have seen their interests best served under a british administration, so I am not too sure what 'a few' means. I would imagine it was more than a handful.

TedB wrote: »

but it was clearly INSANE for the protestant community to support the British authorities when their lives were in danger.

This is a bit of a moot point.

TedB wrote: »

All the evidence points towards the fact that Protestants by and large kept their mouths shut. Besides - what could they actually know? What could a Protestant actually be able to provide to the British authorities of any real meaningful value?

This depends on whether or not you are referring to during the time of the War of Independence ? If you mean during then any amount of local intelligence would have been useful. If you mean after - I do not believe they would have had anyone to report any intelligence to so it would not have been a factor.

TedB wrote: »

This is such nonsense delusional paranoia with no basis in history. if you are able to provide clear facts then just provide them - Because right now all you are doing is spouting forth the same ill-read predictable Republican drivel.

What exactly about this paragraph here fits your description of 'delusional paranoi with no basis in history'

Are you referring to random protestants who 'fled in terror .... IRA barbarity' or people who had previously an involvement with the british administration ? Landlords or others who abused the locals ? The instances of terror against random protestants on the basis of their faith in the republic would pale into insignificance in comparison to what catholics in the north suffered in the intervening period.

?

If you would care to discuss this like an adult maybe we can get some progress but dismissing something as 'delusional paranoia with no basis in history' is meaningless. Anyone can respond to any post on this entire forum in that manner without providing any substance. If this is something you would prefer not to discuss then why post at all ? If it is - then perhaps respond with more than insults.

TedB wrote: »

What context? What suffering of Catholics before 1919? What on earth are you even talking about? This is entirely irrelevant and does not excuse IRA intimidation.

The context would be the treatment of Irish catholics in Ireland pre 1916/War of Independence, & the free state. We can agree to disagree on whether or not that is irrelevant - also on whether or not the context is important.

TedB wrote: »

Well d'uh. Protestants went from being around 10-12% of the Free State population to around 2-4% of it now. Part of it is due to dwindling, part of it is due to IRA terrorism, part of it is due to insular Catholicism.

I am sure there are a great many reasons for that.

TedB wrote: »

BS. The church may not have had direct influence but our political leaders were dominated by a weird insular catholicism for generations. That is undeniable.

Again - I never said the catholic church did not have influence over the political leaders of the state - you can characterise catholicism or it's influence as wierd and insular but that is all that it is - a characterisation. You could say many worse things about the Orange order, or some of the protestant faiths too.

Morlar

Judgement Day wrote: »

Suprisingly the descendents of several of the most unpopular Anglo-Irish families are still to be found in Ireland today. I was at school in the 1970s with two of them. For obvious reasons I will not name the families here as certain contributors to these boards seem to have an agenda which is unfinished.

Who are you referring to by 'certain contributors' ? If you mean me as someone who has an unfinished agenda against protestants then you are wrong. Putting it politely. One of my grandfathers were protestant - one of my best friends is also (literally).

Anatomy Boy

Firstly we have to distinguish between the term Anglo-Irish and Protestant.

The term Anglo-Irish, generally refers to strata a within Irish society who were loyal to King and county (that county being Great Britain and Ireland). As a class, they were predominatly members of the Church of Ireland, though several prominent peers were Roman Catholic, and rarely applied to members of the Presbyterian, Methodist or other dissenting churches, with one or two exception.

Protestant is simply any member of one of the many Protestant chuches or denominations; Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Weslyan, Congreationalist, Unitarian etc. etc.

The two do not go hand in hand. Many of the poorest people in Ireland were Protestant, and many of the richest were Roman Catholic, religion was not an indicator of wealth.

To try to return to the original topic, the Anglo-Irish (who rarely described themselves as such) left Ireland in great numbers between 1916 and the 1920's. Several reasons existed for this;

They no longer wished to remain in a country that was not part of Great Britain

They recieved threats to themselves and their families

Family and/or friends had been killed or injured by the IRA

Their houses and belongings had been burned to the ground by the IRA

They no longer felt safe living in Ireland for the above reasons.


While Protestants accounted for a significant part of the population before the Civil War, the Anglo-Irish section of society was smaller again and were a tight-knit bunch.
If you're friends, or cousins or neighbours are being murdered or burned out because of the position they held in the government/armed forces/society then you are not likely to stay.
Most families left at some stage, and even those who stayed were often forced to send individual family away for safety.


BUT, the key here is that religion had very little to do with it. There is little or no evidence of harassment of Church of Ireland clergy or other Protestant ministers. I know of no damage done to Protestant cathedrals/churches or meeting halls or to rectories or vicarages for that matter.
On the other hand, the IRA brutally murdered many members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, British Army, Royal Navy and Civil Service, even though they were Roman Catholics.

TedB

I give up. Morlar has hardly came back with anything fresh or new - Its just a repetition of his first post. If I wanted to talk to a vegetable I'd go to Tesco's.

me_right_one

They all began talking with accents like those off "Friends" and joined Fine Gael

Judgement Day

Morlar wrote: »

Who are you referring to by 'certain contributors' ? If you mean me as someone who has an unfinished agenda against protestants then you are wrong. Putting it politely. One of my grandfathers were protestant - one of my best friends is also (literally).

If you noticed in my post I said 'these boards' NOT this thread. You are the second person to misunderstand my post - apologies! Maybe I better get my head down below the parapet again.

Judgement Day

All in all it must be said, with a few exceptions, the Anglo-Irish, Prods, West Brits.. insert title of your choice, have been fairly treated since independence, especially given the history of Ireland. However, there remains an underlying antipathy to things British/Unionist throughout many stratas of Irish society including in what used to be 'our' newspaper but it's little to put up with in the overall scheme of things.

Morlar

TedB wrote: »

I give up. Morlar has hardly came back with anything fresh or new - Its just a repetition of his first post. If I wanted to talk to a vegetable I'd go to Tesco's.

I responded to your post point by point actually. Which is a lot more than you have been able to do.

Morlar

Judgement Day wrote: »

If you noticed in my post I said 'these boards' NOT this thread. You are the second person to misunderstand my post - apologies! Maybe I better get my head down below the parapet again.

Fair enough - I must have misread you.

TedB

Morlar wrote: »

I responded to your post point by point actually. Which is a lot more than you have been able to do.

Please re-read your post. You haven't added on to anything or discuss specifics in any way. I would like to posture with vague generalisations but I don't think I'd have the energy.

Morlar

TedB wrote: »

Please re-read your post. You haven't added on to anything or discuss specifics in any way. I would like to posture with vague generalisations but I don't think I'd have the energy.

There is a surprise - more with the insults. First it was 'paranoid delusions with no historical basis' then 'vegetable' now 'posture with vague generalisations' - you just don't seem to have much of a point at all.

TedB

Morlar wrote: »

There is a surprise - more with the insults. First it was 'paranoid delusions with no historical basis' then 'vegetable' now 'posture with vague generalisations' - you just don't seem to have much of a point at all.

If you could please expand on your original point with new information. I cannot possibly reply to your regurgitation of all the facts you seem to be aware of.

Morlar

TedB wrote: »

If you could please expand on your original point with new information. I cannot possibly reply to your regurgitation of all the facts you seem to be aware of.

I do not 'regurgitate facts', I do not engage in 'paranoid delusions with no historical basis' nor am I a 'vegetable' nor do I 'posture with vague generalisations'.

I think there have been enough posts from me in his thread which you haven't responded to yet.

Unless you are counting the above insults as a response, which is something you will find most adults do not do

It would be very easy to respond to your posts in the same manner - so maybe if you have nothing to say beyond insults you could refrain from posting ? Or if you insist then maybe try addressing any of the points made by myself (or other people) in the thread ?

McArmalite

TedB wrote: »

I give up. Morlar has hardly came back with anything fresh or new - Its just a repetition of his first post. If I wanted to talk to a vegetable I'd go to Tesco's.

I'm sure you do plenty of talking to vegetables and the vegetables usually win the discussion.

me_right_one

McArmalite wrote: »

I'm sure you do plenty of talking to vegetables and the vegetables usually win the discussion.

Haha +1000

Fratton Fred

If by Anglo -Irish the OP means the "Ruling Class" then you could ask the same of the UK. Where has the ruling class gone?

Factories are no longer owned by rich industrialists, the boardroom is no longer the exclusive realm of Lords and the landed gentry. The social revolution has meant that the "Ruling Class" is no longer a ruling class anywhere.

The fact that the gradual disappearance of this ruling class has coincided with a reduction with the number of "Protestants" in Ireland is probably no more than coincidence at most.