front squats versus back squats

Transform

Yes i am a journal nerd but it does throw up some great studies once in a while -

J Strength Cond Res. 2009 Jan;23(1):284-92. Links
A biomechanical comparison of back and front squats in healthy trained individuals.Gullett JC, Tillman MD, Gutierrez GM, Chow JW.
Department of Applied Physiology and Kinesiology, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida, USA.

The strength and stability of the knee plays an integral role in athletics and activities of daily living. A better understanding of knee joint biomechanics while performing variations of the squat would be useful in rehabilitation and exercise prescription. We quantified and compared tibiofemoral joint kinetics as well as muscle activity while executing front and back squats. Because of the inherent change in the position of the center of mass of the bar between the front and back squat lifts, we hypothesized that the back squat would result in increased loads on the knee joint and that the front squat would result in increased knee extensor and decreased back extensor muscle activity. A crossover study design was used. To assess the net force and torque placed on the knee and muscle activation levels, a combination of video and force data, as well as surface electromyographic data, were collected from 15 healthy trained individuals. The back squat resulted in significantly higher compressive forces and knee extensor moments than the front squat. Shear forces at the knee were small in magnitude, posteriorly directed, and did not vary between the squat variations. Although bar position did not influence muscle activity, muscle activation during the ascending phase was significantly greater than during the descending phase. The front squat was as effective as the back squat in terms of overall muscle recruitment, with significantly less compressive forces and extensor moments. The results suggest that front squats may be advantageous compared with back squats for individuals with knee problems such as meniscus tears, and for long-term joint health.

Now if you could only get most trainers to actually do and teach even body weight squats the industry would be going places. If i see one more putting a feckin client on a leg extension or leg press machine when there are better alternatives i just might scream.

Hanley

Interesting... cheers!

Pretty sure I saw a study a while back (not sure where tbh) that examined forces acting on the knee when they were allowed to go past the toes, and when they stopped from going over.

Think the results showed that while your knees passing your toes put marginally more force on your knees, the result of being forced to keep them behind your toes put many multiples of additional negative forces on your hips.

Ring a bell?

rubadub

I've been doing a sort of combination, 40kg on a dip belt which puts a load out more in front, and then I press 40kg onto my back. I have no squat rack, but I also like this since there is less load on my back. I also set my dip belt plates with the strap so when I am just below parallel the plates touch the ground, so when I then have the weight on my back this is my signal that I have gone low enough.

Did 20reps 2 days ago and still have DOMs...

BJohnson

Thanks for the article - very interesting!

Transform wrote: »

Now if you could only get most trainers to actually do and teach even body weight squats the industry would be going places. If i see one more putting a feckin client on a leg extension or leg press machine when there are better alternatives i just might scream.

Couldn't agree with this more.

tlev

When I am at home without a squat rack I prefer doing front squats. I can't squat as much front as I can back so I still get a good workout with less weights.

Transform

and less sheer force on your knees that have to last you a lifetime

tlev

That too!:D

Maybe when i'm old there will be bionic knees....

But seriously this is pretty impressive 200kg x5 @ 69kg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkK9-mnDAy4

Burkatron

Nevermind, re read it for a 4th time & finally copped it!
Nothing to see hear move along

104494431

Transform wrote: »

The results suggest that front squats may be advantageous compared with back squats

Fools! All wasting your time with back squats

I prefer doing front squats as it happens, I find that back squats hurt my knees on my recovery days.

Colm_OReilly

The skeptic in me always looks at these things and wonders what type of squat was used?

Was it low bar/high bar? To what depth? Were equal weights used? How was consistency maintained? We're the athletes of comparable anthropometry (okay, I just like using that word but still)?

O.P.H

I'd like to do front squats but its too hard on my achilles tendons. I understand that to do the front squat correctly your feet have to be closer together than when doing a back squat and this really stretches the back of my lower leg. Back squats I can keep my feet further apart and my tight achilles tendons don't bother me.

ragg

I like front squats - i just can't add the same amount of weight to it

Hanley

ragg wrote: »

I like front squats - i just can't add the same amount of weight to it

No one can.

tlev

Hanley wrote: »

No one can.

Except Superman. Seriously though, is there a recommended minimum you should be able to do. Like 80% of your max squat. So is there a major problem if there is a large difference between how much you can front squat and how much you can back squat?

Magic Eight Ball

The most I can front squat is 75kgs, I never feel it in my quads, it's my shoulders and forearms that kill! Which kinda makes it frustrating cause I feel like I can lift more but I suppose that's the whole point of front squatting.

Gonna try nail 80kgs this Monday.

Remmy

Trevor Coulahan wrote: »

The most I can front squat is 75kgs, I never feel it in my quads, it's my shoulders and forearms that kill! Which kinda makes it frustrating cause I feel like I can lift more but I suppose that's the whole point of front squatting.

Gonna try nail 80kgs this Monday.

Are you useing a clean grip?Maybe your wrist mobillity is holding you back.Did you try useing an arms crossed grip?

Transform

its shoulder and triceps flexibility thats the issue but i do not suggest changing grip as getting the grip right is important for when doing cleans.

Its still over body weight on your front squat which is possibly more than what most people are doing on regular squats - hell most people do not either a) do squats or b) go low enough

Magic Eight Ball

80kgs x 4 this morning. boo-yeah!

d'Oracle

I have been watching a few videos ahead of getting back to training after an minor but still untrainable injury.

I just watched one from Crossfit AgainFaster about the Low bar (Rip) Back Squat and high bar back squat.

It seems to me that the high bar back squat has a lot in common with the front squat.

Is there a big difference in the movement there?
Would I be right to say that if I do a more up right high bar it will give some of the benefits of the front squat?

I guess what I'm getting at is, if I get so much posterior chain activation from Deadlifts and Cleans (i.e. the SS template)
Would it make sense to introduce a higher bar squat maybe in one workout?

What do you reckon Transform?

brianthebard

O.P.H wrote: »

I'd like to do front squats but its too hard on my achilles tendons. I understand that to do the front squat correctly your feet have to be closer together than when doing a back squat and this really stretches the back of my lower leg. Back squats I can keep my feet further apart and my tight achilles tendons don't bother me.

maybe look up some ankle mobility drills and see if they help.

Transform

just widen the stance is all

Transform

d'Oracle wrote: »

I have been watching a few videos ahead of getting back to training after an minor but still untrainable injury.

I just watched one from Crossfit AgainFaster about the Low bar (Rip) Back Squat and high bar back squat.

It seems to me that the high bar back squat has a lot in common with the front squat.

Is there a big difference in the movement there?
Would I be right to say that if I do a more up right high bar it will give some of the benefits of the front squat?

I guess what I'm getting at is, if I get so much posterior chain activation from Deadlifts and Cleans (i.e. the SS template)
Would it make sense to introduce a higher bar squat maybe in one workout?

What do you reckon Transform?

i reckon that in any program over a 4-6 week period once you're beyond the beginner stages you need to focus on one particular lift then change it after said 4-6 weeks. E.g. focus on bringing up front squat, then deadlift, then cleans, then deadlift.

I am not a big fan of low bar squats and would always teach it in the normal position as people tend to use the lower back (which is getting sh1t loads of work in deadlifts anyway) too much in low bar squats. Yes, add in a back or front squat while doing deadlifts and cleans (not on same day IMO) but aim for more maintenance on one lift and progress on the other.

In the programs i design i rarely put in regular deadlifts and squats into the same cycle as i find it hinders good progress on them.

Brian?

Transform wrote: »

The results suggest that front squats may be advantageous compared with back squats for individuals with knee problems such as meniscus tears, and for long-term joint health.

Cheers for that Transform. My meniscus in my left knee is, medically speaking, in a jocker. I have found that squatting has been great for it, but maybe its time to switch to front squatting completly.