Questions for clarity

Alan_77

Guys,
I've been reading a lot of the threads in this forum over the last week or so to try to educate myself. I have a few questions to make sure my understanding is right - apologies if these questions are stupid!!

Background - I'm looking to tone up and turn a bit of flab to muslce. I'm not looking to lose weight or bulk up too much.

1. A lot of posts suggest doing weights then cardio - is the order important. Or could I do cardio first and have the same effect?
2. Most posts suggest doing 30 mins cardio (after weights) - would doing more cardio be helpful?
3. When doing weights should you focus on different areas each day? I've been trying to work most areas each day.

Thanks for you help.

Hanley

You're gonna get a sh!t load of varied answers here, but you should just listen to me, cos I'm right

1) Weights first is better because;
-cardio will negatively effect the quality of your weights workout
-doing cardio post weights means glycogen stores are depleted and more fat will be burned (loosely)

2) Depends..
-how hard are you pushing?
-how many calories are you eating??
(very basically, more is not always better, more cardio MAY lead to muscle wasteage and weight loss stagnation, MAY)

3) QUICK, close that can of worms!!
-focus on the compound movements primarily - squat, bench, deadlift, military press, pull ups, rows and maybe push ups too
-everything else is icing on the cake

Dan133269

Hanley wrote: »

1) Weights first is better because;
-cardio will negatively effect the quality of your weights workout
-doing cardio post weights means glycogen stores are depleted and more fat will be burned (loosely)

would you be better off drinking a post workout shake straight after finishing lifting weights i.e. while starting on the bike or cross trainer or waiting til the entire workout is over before eating/drinking anything?

also if anyone could help me here. I've been feeling sick a good few times while doing a lower body workout in last few months. I often have to cut my workout short, like today. Doing upper body however I feel great and have no nausea. any ideas what could be causing this and how to avoid it? today i did 5 minute warm up on rowing machine, 2 warm up dead lift sets, 4 work sets. Then did 4 sets of squatting. Then I didn't feel great and after finishing some ab exercises I had to leave it at that.

Khannie

Hanley wrote: »

1) Weights first is better because;
-cardio will negatively effect the quality of your weights workout

While this is true I don't like the notion of being in a catabolic state then kicking off 30 minutes of cardio. I almost never do weights and cardio in the same session because of this.

corkcomp

after a tough workout blood sugar levels might be lower but for most people thats about it .. the chances of being in a catabolic state or having empty glycogen reserves following a workout is VERY unlikely for anybody unless they are eatting below maintenance or intermittant fasting etc..

Dan133269

Dan133269 wrote: »

would you be better off drinking a post workout shake straight after finishing lifting weights i.e. while starting on the bike or cross trainer or waiting til the entire workout is over before eating/drinking anything?

also if anyone could help me here. I've been feeling sick a good few times while doing a lower body workout in last few months. I often have to cut my workout short, like today. Doing upper body however I feel great and have no nausea. any ideas what could be causing this and how to avoid it? today i did 5 minute warm up on rowing machine, 2 warm up dead lift sets, 4 work sets. Then did 4 sets of squatting. Then I didn't feel great and after finishing some ab exercises I had to leave it at that.

any ideas?

jason2501

Dan133269 wrote: »

any ideas?

hi if your drinking shakes,

1hour 30mins before work out

and then

30mins after work out..

BobbyOLeary

Dan133269 wrote: »

any ideas?

Hah this reminds me of when Robb Wolf (American nutrionist/biochemist) was asked about post workout carbing. I'm paraphrasing him a bit but what he had 4 points regarding it in order of importance:

1. Sort your diet out
2. No really, sort your diet out
3. Have you sorted your diet out?
4. Maybe double carbs after working out

I wouldn't worry too much about when you get your shake in, just drink it whenever you feel comfortable to do so and... sort your diet out :pac:

jason2501

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Hah this reminds me of when Robb Wolf (American nutrionist/biochemist) was asked about post workout carbing. I'm paraphrasing him a bit but what he had 4 points regarding it in order of importance:

1. Sort your diet out
2. No really, sort your diet out
3. Have you sorted your diet out?
4. Maybe double carbs after working out

I wouldn't worry too much about when you get your shake in, just drink it whenever you feel comfortable to do so and... sort your diet out :pac:

shakes 3-4 times a day after food for best results

also 30mins after work out is a must, just my opinion.

BobbyOLeary

shakes 3-4 times a day after food for best results

Really? Better than whole food? Would whole food 3 - 4 times a day not get the best results too?

Transform

it would indeed and there have been a ton of studies showing there are no extra benefits of taking whole foods versus protein drinks - the drinks are just handier and easier on digestion. I would take 2-4 per day depending on how active/busy i am.

celestial

Transform wrote: »

it would indeed and there have been a ton of studies showing there are no extra benefits of taking whole foods versus protein drinks - the drinks are just handier and easier on digestion. I would take 2-4 per day depending on how active/busy i am.

I would like to see these studies.

Regardless, folks, remember that whole foods like eggs, fish, meat can NEVER be substituted for processed powders like whey protein.

People bang on here about processed food and then go slugging protein shakes after the gym - remember that protein shakes ARE processed food. I have nothing major against them, just that you will see similar ingredients in a protein shake to what you will see in a can of soft drink, e.g. aspartame, acesulfame k - two example ingredients where the safety of each is in dispute.

It's just worth bearing in mind!

e.g. 'Big Whey' ingredients - full of flavourings and an artificial sweetener.

Whey Protein concentrate, Whey Protein Isolate, Acesulfame Potassium, Vanilla flavouring (vanilla flavour only),Strawberry flavouring and Beet Red (strawberry flavour only), Banana flavouring (Banana flavour only), Berry flavouring (berry blast flavour only), Chocolate flavouring and cocoa (chocolate flavouring only), chocolate and mint flavouring and cocoa (chocolate mint flavouring only). caramel flavouring and biscuit flavouring (caramel biscuit twist flavour only), chocolate flavouring, cocoa and orange flavouring (chocolate orange flavour only)

Hanley

Transform wrote: »

it would indeed and there have been a ton of studies showing there are no extra benefits of taking whole foods versus protein drinks - the drinks are just handier and easier on digestion. I would take 2-4 per day depending on how active/busy i am.

Yeah, but in fairness, state of ya!!


My opinion on this whole shake thing is if you're not gonna be able to get protein elsewhere, then go for it.

And by "not able to" I include "not bothered". At the end of the day, it's MUCH better than nothing.

Beau

So the answer to the OP's original question is, after weights but if possible on different days?

Transform

jasus your making me work more today!!!

J Am Coll Nutr. 2007 Dec;26(6):696S-703S. Links
Dietary protein and resistance training effects on muscle and body composition in older persons.Campbell WW, Leidy HJ.


The regular performance of resistance exercises and the habitual ingestion of adequate amounts of dietary protein from high-quality sources are two important ways for older persons to slow the progression of and treat sarcopenia, the age-related loss of skeletal muscle mass and function. Resistance training can help older people gain muscle strength, hypertrophy muscle, and increase whole body fat-free mass. It can also help frail elderly people improve balance and physical functioning capabilities. Inadequate protein intake will cause adverse metabolic and physiological accommodation responses that include the loss of fat-free mass and muscle strength and size. Findings from controlled feeding studies show that older persons retain the capacity to metabolically adjust to lower protein intakes by increasing the efficiency of nitrogen retention and amino acid utilization. However, they also suggest that the recommended dietary allowance of 0.8 g protein x kg(-1) x d(-1) might not be sufficient to prevent subtle accommodations and blunt desired changes in body composition and muscle size with resistance training. Most of the limited research suggests that resistance training-induced improvements in body composition, muscle strength and size, and physical functioning are not enhanced when older people who habitually consume adequate protein (modestly above the RDA) increase their protein intake by either increasing the ingestion of higher-protein foods or consuming protein-enriched nutritional supplements.

Resistance training with soy vs whey protein supplements in hyperlipidemic males
Carol A DeNysschen1 , Harold W Burton2 , Peter J Horvath2 , John J Leddy3 and Richard W Browne4

1Department of Nutrition and Dietetics, State University at New York, Buffalo State College, Buffalo, NY, USA

2Department of Exercise and Nutrition Sciences, University at Buffalo, Buffalo, NY, USA

3Department of Orthopaedics, University at Buffalo, Buffalo, NY, USA

4Department of Biotechnical and Laboratory Sciences, University at Buffalo, Buffalo, NY, USA

author email corresponding author email

Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2009, 6:8doi:10.1186/1550-2783-6-8

The electronic version of this article is the complete one and can be found online at: http://www.jissn.com/content/6/1/8

Received: 5 January 2009
Accepted: 11 March 2009
Published: 11 March 2009

© 2009 DeNysschen et al; licensee BioMed Central Ltd.
This is an Open Access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0), which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.

Abstract
Background
Most individuals at risk for developing cardiovascular disease (CVD) can reduce risk factors through diet and exercise before resorting to drug treatment. The effect of a combination of resistance training with vegetable-based (soy) versus animal-based (whey) protein supplementation on CVD risk reduction has received little study. The study's purpose was to examine the effects of 12 weeks of resistance exercise training with soy versus whey protein supplementation on strength gains, body composition and serum lipid changes in overweight, hyperlipidemic men.

Methods
Twenty-eight overweight, male subjects (BMI 25–30) with serum cholesterol >200 mg/dl were randomly divided into 3 groups (placebo (n = 9), and soy (n = 9) or whey (n = 10) supplementation) and participated in supervised resistance training for 12 weeks. Supplements were provided in a double blind fashion.

Results
All 3 groups had significant gains in strength, averaging 47% in all major muscle groups and significant increases in fat free mass (2.6%), with no difference among groups. Percent body fat and waist-to-hip ratio decreased significantly in all 3 groups an average of 8% and 2%, respectively, with no difference among groups. Total serum cholesterol decreased significantly, again with no difference among groups.

Conclusion
Participation in a 12 week resistance exercise training program significantly increased strength and improved both body composition and serum cholesterol in overweight, hypercholesterolemic men with no added benefit from protein supplementation.


Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Oct;16(5):494-509.Links
The effect of whey isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine.Cribb PJ, Williams AD, Carey MF, Hayes A.
Exercise Metabolism Unit, Center for Ageing, Rehabilitation, Exercise and Sport (CARES), Australia.

Different dietary proteins affect whole body protein anabolism and accretion and therefore, have the potential to influence results obtained from resistance training. This study examined the effects of supplementation with two proteins, hydrolyzed whey isolate (WI) and casein (C), on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine levels during a 10 wk, supervised resistance training program. In a double-blind protocol, 13 male, recreational bodybuilders supplemented their normal diet with either WI or C (1.5 gm/kg body wt/d) for the duration of the program. Strength was assessed by 1-RM in three exercises (barbell bench press, squat, and cable pull-down). Body composition was assessed by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry. Plasma glutamine levels were determined by the enzymatic method with spectrophotometric detection. All assessments occurred in the week before and the week following 10 wk of training. Plasma glutamine levels did not change in either supplement group following the intervention. The WI group achieved a significantly greater gain (P < 0.01) in lean mass than the C group (5.0 +/- 0.3 vs. 0.8 +/- 0.4 kg for WI and C, respectively) and a significant (P < 0.05) change in fat mass (-1.5 +/- 0.5 kg) compared to the C group (+0.2 +/- 0.3 kg). The WI group also achieved significantly greater (P < 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group in each assessment of strength. When the strength changes were expressed relative to body weight, the WI group still achieved significantly greater (P < 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group.

For the love of god if this is the only one you read - please read this one!!!!
J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Sep 26;4:8.Related Articles, Links
International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: protein and exercise.

Campbell B, Kreider RB, Ziegenfuss T, La Bounty P, Roberts M, Burke D, Landis J, Lopez H, Antonio J.

Exercise and Sport Nutrition Laboratory, Dept, of Health, Human Performance, and Recreation, Baylor University, One Bear Place 97313, Waco, TX 76798-7313, USA. Richard_Kreider@baylor.edu.

ABSTRACT: POSITION STATEMENT: The following seven points related to the intake of protein for healthy, exercising individuals constitute the position stand of the Society. They have been approved by the Research Committee of the Society. 1) Vast research supports the contention that individuals engaged in regular exercise training require more dietary protein than sedentary individuals. 2) Protein intakes of 1.4 - 2.0 g/kg/day for physically active individuals is not only safe, but may improve the training adaptations to exercise training. 3) When part of a balanced, nutrient-dense diet, protein intakes at this level are not detrimental to kidney function or bone metabolism in healthy, active persons. 4) While it is possible for physically active individuals to obtain their daily protein requirements through a varied, regular diet, supplemental protein in various forms are a practical way of ensuring adequate and quality protein intake for athletes. 5) Different types and quality of protein can affect amino acid bioavailability following protein supplementation. The superiority of one protein type over another in terms of optimizing recovery and/or training adaptations remains to be convincingly demonstrated. 6) Appropriately timed protein intake is an important component of an overall exercise training program, essential for proper recovery, immune function, and the growth and maintenance of lean body mass. 7) Under certain circumstances, specific amino acid supplements, such as branched-chain amino acids (BCAA's), may improve exercise performance and recovery from exercise.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 May;87(5):1567S-1570S.Related Articles, Links
Amount and type of protein influences bone health.

Heaney RP, Layman DK.

Creighton University, Omaha, NE, USA.

Many factors influence bone mass. Protein has been identified as being both detrimental and beneficial to bone health, depending on a variety of factors, including the level of protein in the diet, the protein source, calcium intake, weight loss, and the acid/base balance of the diet. This review aims to briefly describe these factors and their relation to bone health. Loss of bone mass (osteopenia) and loss of muscle mass (sarcopenia) that occur with age are closely related. Factors that affect muscle anabolism, including protein intake, also affect bone mass. Changes in bone mass, muscle mass, and strength track together over the life span. Bone health is a multifactorial musculoskeletal issue. Calcium and protein intake interact constructively to affect bone health. Intakes of both calcium and protein must be adequate to fully realize the benefit of each nutrient on bone. Optimal protein intake for bone health is likely higher than current recommended intakes, particularly in the elderly. Concerns about dietary protein increasing urinary calcium appear to be offset by increases in absorption. Likewise, concerns about the impact of protein on acid production appear to be minor compared with the alk[B]alinizing effects of fruits and vegetables. [/B]Perhaps more concern should be focused on increasing fruit and vegetable intake rather than reducing protein sources. The issue for public health professionals is whether recommended protein intakes should be increased, given the prevalence of osteoporosis and sarcopenia.

Just an interesting one i thought i would throw in

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2009 Feb;19(1):79-96.Links
Conjugated linoleic acid combined with creatine monohydrate and whey protein supplementation during strength training.Cornish SM, Candow DG, Jantz NT, Chilibeck PD, Little JP, Forbes S, Abeysekara S, Zello GA.
College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, SK, Canada.

PURPOSE: The authors examined the combined effects of conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), creatine (C), and whey protein (P) supplementation during strength training. METHODS: Sixty-nine participants (52 men, 17 women; M +/- SD age 22.5 +/-2.5 yr) were randomly assigned (double-blind) to 1 of 3 groups: CCP (6 g/d CLA + 9 g/d C + 36 g/d P; n = 22), CP (C + P + placebo oil; n = 25), or P (P + placebo oil; n = 22) during 5 wk of strength training (4-5 sets, 6-12 repetitions, 6 d/wk). Measurements were taken for body composition (air-displacement plethysmography), muscle thickness (ultrasound) of the flexors and extensors of the elbow and knee, 1-repetition-maximum (1-RM) strength (leg press and bench press), urinary markers of bone resorption (N-telopeptides, NTx), myofibrillar protein catabolism (3-methylhistidine; 3-MH), oxidative stress (8-isoprostanes), and kidney function (microalbumin) before and after training. RESULTS: Contrast analyses indicated that the CCP group had a greater increase in bench-press (16.2% +/- 11.3% vs. 9.7% +/- 17.0%; p < .05) and leg-press (13.1% +/- 9.9% vs. 7.7% +/-14.2%; p < .05) strength and lean-tissue mass (2.4% +/- 2.8% vs. 1.3% +/-4.1%; p < .05) than the other groups combined. All groups increased muscle thickness over time (p < .05). The relative change in 3-MH (CCP -4.7% +/- 70.2%, CP -0.4% +/- 81.4%, P 20.3% +/- 75.2%) was less in the groups receiving creatine (p < .05), with the difference for NTx also close to significance (p = .055; CCP -3.4% +/- 66.6%, CP -3.9% +/- 64.9%, P 26.0% +/- 63.8%). There were no changes in oxidative stress or kidney function. CONCLUSION: Combining C, CLA, and P was beneficial for increasing strength and lean-tissue mass during heavy resistance training.

Transform

No more posting that again so please just refer back to this when it comes up again as i am not going through my papers and references again (well it does afford me the opportunity to look up new studies like the last one through!)

d'Oracle

Dan133269 wrote: »

would you be better off drinking a post workout shake straight after finishing lifting weights i.e. while starting on the bike or cross trainer or waiting til the entire workout is over before eating/drinking anything?

also if anyone could help me here. I've been feeling sick a good few times while doing a lower body workout in last few months. I often have to cut my workout short, like today. Doing upper body however I feel great and have no nausea. any ideas what could be causing this and how to avoid it? today i did 5 minute warm up on rowing machine, 2 warm up dead lift sets, 4 work sets. Then did 4 sets of squatting. Then I didn't feel great and after finishing some ab exercises I had to leave it at that.

Out of curiosity what does your upper body routine consist of?

Dan133269

d'Oracle wrote: »

Out of curiosity what does your upper body routine consist of?

today i did 5 minute rowing machine followed by
-bench press
-inverted smith machine rows
-decline dumbbell pressing
-dumbbell shrug
-high cable crossover
-shoulder press
-lateral raise
-tricep rope pulldowns
-barbell curls.

All exercises are 3 sets apart from benching which was 2 warm up and then 4 work sets.