Ireland does not deserve any better

SLUSK

Ireland is in a real mess, for years and years it has been a net recipient of money among the EU countries, yet your infrastructure sucks ass and your education and health care is not exactly something do brag about. You have received alot of money and still you have managed to get yourself so deep into debt that it will take many years to solve this mess. You all loved getting high on easy credit, buying houses you could not afford in the first place. Then you went on a spending binge using your houses as your private atms. I do not feel sorry for you guys. You deserve to be in this mess you are in and I can only laugh at you.

gurramok

Its correct what you say. Its similar to what Finland experienced in the 90s with their housing bust. Expect at least 10yrs of misery giving the public sector unions reluctance to look at the national interest instead of their self interest for money and FF lack of action on the issue.

FF will wait until the country is broke until they act against the unions and then have a 'Tallaght strategy' with the opposition in agreement to save the country from the IMF as after all any cutbacks rely on unilateral political & public support

We need a bit of German prudence in our mindset regarding money and in our electoral system.

PS - i did not buy one of those houses

AARRRGH

SLUSK wrote: »

Ireland is in a real mess, for years and years it has been a net recipient of money among the EU countries, yet your infrastructure sucks ass and your education and health care is not exactly something do brag about. You have received alot of money and still you have managed to get yourself so deep into debt that it will take many years to solve this mess. You all loved getting high on easy credit, buying houses you could not afford in the first place. Then you went on a spending binge using your houses as your private atms. I do not feel sorry for you guys. You deserve to be in this mess you are in and I can only laugh at you.

Unfortunately Ireland aren't alone: Spain, UK, USA are all just as bad or worse off.

I always thought the bubble was nuts, and tried my best to talk everyone I know out of buying. But like most people, they thought with their heart and not with their head, and are now trapped.

You should examine why you want to laugh at these people. Best of luck.

hiorta

Deserved or not, it was entirely preventable and fueled by blind greed.
Like crazed sheep competing to be fleeced.

On the front of every school book should be written large: 'there are NO free lunches'. Get this drummed in so that it can never be repeated.

Examine the role played by the politicians, the professional people, the journalists, the clergy, estate agents/ property sales people.

Who among them told you the true position? How many urged caution? They weren't all in ignorance of what was happening. Which among them encouraged you to swim beyond your depth?
Do such as these dserve your future custom?

johnathan woss

SLUSK wrote: »

Ireland is in a real mess, for years and years it has been a net recipient of money among the EU countries, yet your infrastructure sucks ass and your education and health care is not exactly something do brag about. You have received alot of money and still you have managed to get yourself so deep into debt that it will take many years to solve this mess. You all loved getting high on easy credit, buying houses you could not afford in the first place. Then you went on a spending binge using your houses as your private atms. I do not feel sorry for you guys. You deserve to be in this mess you are in and I can only laugh at you.

Considering you are laughing at us I feel it would be useful if you disclosed your nationality.

SLUSK

I come from a country where the minister of finance has an earring and a pony tail.

gurramok

Sweden?

SLUSK

bingo.

Profiler

SLUSK wrote: »

bingo.

Aww Sweden, the benefit of Hindsight eh?

Was Sweden not in a bad position previously? in the mid 90's?

So it took us a bit longer to get there, but did you all not make the same mistakes as us?

neil_hosey

SLUSK wrote: »

Ireland is in a real mess, for years and years it has been a net recipient of money among the EU countries, yet your infrastructure sucks ass and your education and health care is not exactly something do brag about. You have received alot of money and still you have managed to get yourself so deep into debt that it will take many years to solve this mess. You all loved getting high on easy credit, buying houses you could not afford in the first place. Then you went on a spending binge using your houses as your private atms. I do not feel sorry for you guys. You deserve to be in this mess you are in and I can only laugh at you.

Judging by your comments, you are not irish but do you know what ireland have given back to europe in exchange for this money? probably not.... actually definately not!

Our education standards, in my opinion are very good.

Out of curiosity, what are your motives for making a post like the one above? Is it to make you feel better about yourself telling us things we already know ... or ..... what? im a bit confused, maybe its to show your superiority to us 'stupid' irish.. you tell me pls?

deadhead13

Didn't Sweden get itself into a similiar mess in the 90's.

SLUSK

Yes, Sweden was also in a bad position in the 90ies and it got what it deserved for foolishly believing that property prices could only go up. This is not a racist rant against irish people in general. All countries in the same position, spain, uk, us got what they deserved.

neil_hosey

SLUSK wrote: »

Yes, Sweden was also in a bad position in the 90ies and it got what it deserved for foolishly believing that property prices could only go up. This is not a racist rant against irish people in general. All countries in the same position, spain, uk, us got what they deserved.

if its not, why does your first post wreak of it then... fair enough make a point, we are fooked, but this crap about "all you can do is laugh at us" just makes you look like a troll

Profiler

SLUSK wrote: »

Yes, Sweden was also in a bad position in the 90ies and it got what it deserved for foolishly believing that property prices could only go up. This is not a racist rant against irish people in general. All countries in the same position, spain, uk, us got what they deserved.

So you are laughing at Ireland for the same mistakes you made?

Did you laugh at your own misfortune when you were in the toilet? otherwise you are being a hypocrite!

ejmaztec

Profiler wrote: »

So you are laughing at Ireland for the same mistakes you made?

Did you laugh at your own misfortune when you were in the toilet? otherwise you are being a hypocrite!

He could always send a few buxom blondes over here to take our minds off the misery.

I'm glad I haven't got a mortgage, but I'm still not laughing.:(

SLUSK

I was not old enough to properly understand what was going on in the early 90ies but obviously I do not have any sympathy for those people who acted like irresponsible children spending their equity on toys for adults(big cars, television sets and so on)

Profiler

SLUSK wrote: »

I was not old enough to properly understand what was going on in the early 90ies but obviously I do not have any sympathy for those people who acted like irresponsible children spending their equity on toys for adults(big cars, television sets and so on)

It seems to me that you don't quite understand it now. Your parents and probably you will be paying for what went on in the 90's for quite some time.

Just as I will be paying for other people's excess here in Ireland, as will any children I may have.

Either way I don't see it as something to laugh about, you are not coming across very well.

deadhead13

Ok, we have established you are not a very sympathic person - is there any other point to this thread?

ejmaztec

SLUSK wrote: »

I was not old enough to properly understand what was going on in the early 90ies but obviously I do not have any sympathy for those people who acted like irresponsible children spending their equity on toys for adults(big cars, television sets and so on)

I don't think that anyone can blame the Irish population for spending money, because that's what people do in a capitalist society. If you want to laugh at someone, laugh at our politicians for screwing the economy.

Spudmonkey

ejmaztec wrote: »

I don't think that anyone can blame the Irish population for spending money, because that's what people do in a capitalist society. If you want to laugh at someone, laugh at our politicians for screwing the economy.

But spending so much money you don't own? And then pawning this blame off on others facets of society? The politicians aren't the only ones to blame. Considering someone posted up on another thread about there being 170~ bn in personal debt!

AARRRGH

deadhead13 wrote: »

Ok, we have established you are not a very sympathic person - is there any other point to this thread?

The only thing I've learnt from this thread is that the OP is not a very nice person.

97i9y3941

all down to money really,even back to the 70's it was always the cheapest option of course,or we woundnt bother doing some stuff for dublins traffic because it would cost to much,granted we have highways and byways but still have a banal system of traffic in dub itself dont even have underground tubes like rest of europe has,still backwards when comes to broadband,something that gets glossed over when scouting for business around rest of europe,granted somethings like the rail system/electric system cant be broken up to be privatised because our infacstructure is too small for competition

ejmaztec

Spudmonkey wrote: »

But spending so much money you don't own? And then pawning this blame off on others facets of society? The politicians aren't the only ones to blame. Considering someone posted up on another thread about there being 170~ bn in personal debt!

The credit crunch is worldwide. The Irish situation has been exacerbated by the incompetent handling of the economy leading up to it.

What's the breakdown of the 170bn?

gurramok

ejmaztec wrote: »

What's the breakdown of the 170bn?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61315492&postcount=8

Vast majority of it in housing!!

Spudmonkey

ejmaztec wrote: »

The credit crunch is worldwide. The Irish situation has been exacerbated by the incompetent handling of the economy leading up to it.

What's the breakdown of the 170bn?

True.. and everyone had a part in some way or another. I can't stand listening to the attitudes of we didn't cause it.

I think the figure of 33 bn on investment properties is staggering. People who figured they were property hot shots!?

Martyr

i have zero debt and will consider emigrating once i've lost my MNC job..as it's no doubt in the post with any increase on corpo tax all while the Public sector remains unreformed and keep their high wages.

why should people who never bought into the deception of false wealth be expected to pay for it.

-=Shamrock=-

SLUSK wrote: »

I was not old enough to properly understand what was going on in the early 90ies but obviously I do not have any sympathy for those people who acted like irresponsible children spending their equity on toys for adults(big cars, television sets and so on)

Slusk a couple of things:

In the grand scheme of things the money received from EU funds was not that much, it got us kick started but compared to what French farmers get it really is nothing.

Also Ireland as it currently stands has a similar debt to that of sweden. Our infrastructure is poor, very poor. You have to however realize that it is only in the last 15-20 years that Irelands infrastructure has lagged behind its requirements. It took sweden a good 45 years to get its excellent infrastructure and I would like to remind you that you went into an astronomical amount of debt in doing so.

Also as the Irish become the 2nd richest nation in the EU, 45% of our spending with to other EU nations. Ireland has the 6th most open economy in the world! The money we received in our structural funds went straight back out in machinery from germany, steel from holland, gas from norway etc etc. Thats the whole idea of the EU, by making its members more wealthy you increase the wealth of your own nation also!

Ireland has been a net contributor to the EU just after the new millenium!


Im a student of European Law at the University of Leiden.... this stuff is what ive been doing for the last year!

MysticalRain

The OP comes across as a troll, but I agree with him regardless. Sweden and the UK went through a similar housing bubbles that we should have learned from. The Swedes apparently did a better job of dealing with their problem than our politicians are doing right now.

The only thing I'll add is that not all of us bought into the ludicrous bubble mentality during the Celtic Tiger. I saw little of the wealth we were told the country was supposedly awash with. Now I'm paying the price for other people's stupidity, along with many others who lived within their means during those years. I'd like to say everyone will learn a lesson from this debacle, but I have my doubts. Money corrupts people's minds too easily.

ejmaztec

gurramok wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61315492&postcount=8

Vast majority of it in housing!!

As I suspected.

I mentioned several times before on these boards that at one stage, a few years ago, the government removed any interest relief on investment property loans. For reasons best known to themselves (no doubt pressure from their property-dealing chums, I would guess), and while the property market was already out of control, they decided to re-introduce the relief, leading to even more people jumping on the buy-to-let bandwagon.

These mini-tycoons are now short on tenants, and scratching around trying to keep up the payments on these properties. Countless numbers of these loans must be on the verge of going bad, if they haven't done so already.

creeper1

What a tool the OP is! How dare you ramble about EU subsidies! Ireland became the great country that it is down to the hard work, sweat and blood of it's people. :mad:

:mad: Your desire to rub our faces in it makes me think that you are a British national. I notice that your use of English doesn't suggest that you come from Sweden. :mad:

Despite all the problems, Ireland will emerge stronger, leaner and meaner from this recession. We have

1. Pharmaceutical Industry - High tech giants like Pfizer and Wyeth (just to name a few) manufacturing drugs to all of Europe.

2. Computer Industry - It's took a knock in recent months but the fact remains that Intel and Dell have bases here.

3. Alcohol drinks - Yes thats right the world famous black stuff Guinness is made here and sold all over the world.

That's only what I know about. :P So soon enough I will be the one laughing at you Swedes or British whatever.
- See my recent posts in "the UK is finished!!"
Bunch of poor losers! :P:)

Purple Gorilla

So I know this guy who's been homeless all his life..one day, this group of rich men give him some money and doesn't know what to do with it... He's never had this much money in his life! He's never been so lucky...so he gets cleaned up and gets the basics, a house, job etc. Soon, he's a model for all homeless men..something to look up to. He rose to being the 2nd richest out of the rich gorup as they gave him some money to help him on his feet. but he's so excited by all this money that he does some irresponsible spending along the way...he takes out a loan and a mortgage to get a fancy car and stuff like that assuming he'll have the money to pay it off.
One day, his money dries up and he realises the mistakes he made. Now he has his house and some savings so he knows he'll never go back to the days of being homeless but this is a lesson to him.
It was his first time coming into money, after all.

^^
That's basically the story of Ireland. I guess we haven't been as lucky as Sweden. We've been a proper first world country for what...15 years now? This is a learning mistake..no government before this has ever had the "problem" of having too much money so they didn't know what to do with it. I'm not excusing what they did, but it's basically the jist of it

sickpuppy

creeper1 wrote: »

What a tool the OP is! How dare you ramble about EU subsidies! Ireland became the great country that it is down to the hard work, sweat and blood of it's people. :mad:

:mad: Your desire to rub our faces in it makes me think that you are a British national. I notice that your use of English doesn't suggest that you come from Sweden. :mad:

Despite all the problems, Ireland will emerge stronger, leaner and meaner from this recession. We have

1. Pharmaceutical Industry - High tech giants like Pfizer and Wyeth (just to name a few) manufacturing drugs to all of Europe.

2. Computer Industry - It's took a knock in recent months but the fact remains that Intel and Dell have bases here.

3. Alcohol drinks - Yes thats right the world famous black stuff Guinness is made here and sold all over the world.

That's only what I know about. :P So soon enough I will be the one laughing at you Swedes or British whatever.
- See my recent posts in "the UK is finished!!"
Bunch of poor losers! :P:)

Have we any indeginous industries at all?
Guinness owned by Diadeo all these pharmaceuticals will be off to India same with the computer companys when it suits.
Sweden makes Airplanes
designs submarines
weapons systems artillery and missile systems
designs cars Saab
Volvo
and has great porn and fantastic women and Ikea
all we are i sslaves to poxy american multinationals wheres the brains and science and engineers to actually create something irish beside butter and fukin guinness.

Purple Gorilla

Elan is Irish

nesf

creeper1 wrote: »

What a tool the OP is!

Less of the personal attacks please, attack the post not the poster.

ei.sdraob

both are welfare states

tho im not sure i would prefer to live and work in sweden, taxes are even higher

and his right Swedish blondes ftw!

irish_bob

AARRRGH wrote: »

The only thing I've learnt from this thread is that the OP is not a very nice person.

the only thing ive learned from this thread is that a lot of irish people dont like to hear the truth

MysticalRain

creeper1 wrote: »

What a tool the OP is! How dare you ramble about EU subsidies! Ireland became the great country that it is down to the hard work, sweat and blood of it's people. :mad:

:mad: Your desire to rub our faces in it makes me think that you are a British national. I notice that your use of English doesn't suggest that you come from Sweden. :mad:

Despite all the problems, Ireland will emerge stronger, leaner and meaner from this recession. We have

1. Pharmaceutical Industry - High tech giants like Pfizer and Wyeth (just to name a few) manufacturing drugs to all of Europe.

2. Computer Industry - It's took a knock in recent months but the fact remains that Intel and Dell have bases here.

3. Alcohol drinks - Yes thats right the world famous black stuff Guinness is made here and sold all over the world.

That's only what I know about. :P So soon enough I will be the one laughing at you Swedes or British whatever.
- See my recent posts in "the UK is finished!!"
Bunch of poor losers! :P:)

Not to nitpick, but most of Dell's operations have basically up and left for Poland. Intel are cutting jobs, and future investment from that company may end up being diverted elsewhere to places like Israel. Half the software development jobs we used to have got outsourced to India. In contrast with Sweden, we should have focused more on developing our own indigenous export sector rather than diverting the money towards the grand pyramid scheme we called the "property market".

DublinWriter

creeper1 wrote: »

3. Alcohol drinks - Yes thats right the world famous black stuff Guinness is made here and sold all over the world.

...by a UK plc that came within a hare's breath of turning St.James Gate into apartments two years ago.

AARRRGH

Martyr wrote: »

i have zero debt and will consider emigrating once i've lost my MNC job..as it's no doubt in the post with any increase on corpo tax all while the Public sector remains unreformed and keep their high wages.

why should people who never bought into the deception of false wealth be expected to pay for it.

Me too.

AARRRGH

irish_bob wrote: »

the only thing ive learned from this thread is that a lot of irish people dont like to hear the truth

That we should be laughed at? I don't consider that the truth.

harsea8

creeper1 wrote: »

What a tool the OP is! How dare you ramble about EU subsidies! Ireland became the great country that it is down to the hard work, sweat and blood of it's people. :mad:

:mad: Your desire to rub our faces in it makes me think that you are a British national. I notice that your use of English doesn't suggest that you come from Sweden. :mad:

Despite all the problems, Ireland will emerge stronger, leaner and meaner from this recession. We have

1. Pharmaceutical Industry - High tech giants like Pfizer and Wyeth (just to name a few) manufacturing drugs to all of Europe.

2. Computer Industry - It's took a knock in recent months but the fact remains that Intel and Dell have bases here.

3. Alcohol drinks - Yes thats right the world famous black stuff Guinness is made here and sold all over the world.

That's only what I know about. :P So soon enough I will be the one laughing at you Swedes or British whatever.
- See my recent posts in "the UK is finished!!"
Bunch of poor losers! :P:)

What a ****ing stupid post! The guys said he is from Sweden, why do you have to drag your bigoted anti-British views into a post that has no relevance to Britain

Kintarō Hattori

Not everyone spent spent spent OP. Myself and the GF looked at buying a house here two years ago but decided against it as the prices were so ludicrous. We saved our money and bought an apartment in Poland instead (the other half is Polish). We've continued to rent here and will buy when property is reasonably priced.

So I'd like if you didn't tar everyone with the same brush. Ta.

techdiver

MysticalRain wrote: »

Half the software development jobs we used to have got outsourced to India.

Where did you get this information from?? As a software developer it has been a constant struggle to recruit new people, so much so that many of the people working here are non-Irish. Nearly every developer I know is currently working. I don't know too many professions who can say that?

Ireland has massive advantages over India as regards attracting these jobs, which include the usual, English speaking, location etc. In fact many Indian developers work outside of India.

Latchy

harsea8 wrote: »

What a ****ing stupid post! The guys said he is from Sweden, why do you have to drag your bigoted anti-British views into a post that has no relevance to Britain

It's just the usual hang up about Britain ie,they are out to get us .....

djpbarry

neil_hosey wrote: »

Our education standards, in my opinion are very good.

They’re ok – Irish students rate just above average on the OECD PISA 2006 science scale. We’re way behind the likes of Finland and Estonia.

-=Shamrock=- wrote: »

Ireland has been a net contributor to the EU just after the new millenium!

That’s not true; Ireland was expected to become a net contributor around about 2013, but I think we can safely say that is not likely to happen now.

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

the only thing ive learned from this thread is that a lot of irish people dont like to hear the truth

It's rare for me to agree with irish_bob, but I agree with him on this.

tlev

Ireland is in pretty bad shape alright, the difference though between Ireland and Sweden is that Sweden did what it had to do quickly and effectively and cut away the dead wood before the rot could spread, Ireland is lingering a bit too much...

MysticalRain

techdiver wrote: »

Where did you get this information from??

I worked in software development, so I'm speaking from first-hand experience. Most of the companies I worked for had more employees and contractors working in places like India and the Ukraine than they did in Ireland. The only real future I could see was in the business side, not the tech side.

As a software developer it has been a constant struggle to recruit new people, so much so that many of the people working here are non-Irish. Nearly every developer I know is currently working. I don't know too many professions who can say that?

I keep hearing that sob story from employers all the time, yet there are so many IT graduates out of work at the moment. Of course employers seem to only want people with tons of experience, but that limits their recruiting pool and makes it difficult for people to break into the industry. IT as a career isn't as popular as it used to be, so perhaps now we are seeing net effects of employers being so particular with recruitment.

techdiver

MysticalRain wrote: »

I worked in software development, so I'm speaking from first-hand experience. Most of the companies I worked for had more employees and contractors working in places like India and the Ukraine than they did in Ireland. The only real future I could see was in the business side, not the tech side.

The fact that there were more developers in the Ukraine than Ireland in your company isn't really proof of your argument. There hasn't been a reduction of developer jobs in Ireland in the past few years.

MysticalRain wrote: »

I keep hearing that sob story from employers all the time, yet there are so many IT graduates out of work at the moment. Of course employers seem to only want people with tons of experience, but that limits their recruiting pool and makes it difficult for people to break into the industry. IT as a career isn't as popular as it used to be, so perhaps now we are seeing net effects of employers being so particular with recruitment.

I agree with you from the point of view of Junior and Grad developers. I was in that boat for some time too. It's well known that it is hard to get into, but once you are there is plenty of work out there if you are capable at the job. I know it's a kind of chicken and egg scenario for employers, but the pressure on some companies is such that they cannot afford the cost of training new graduates up especially in development, where it doesn't suit everyone.

MysticalRain

techdiver wrote: »

The fact that there were more developers in the Ukraine than Ireland in your company isn't really proof of your argument. There hasn't been a reduction of developer jobs in Ireland in the past few years.

That's not my point. The point is the Irish companies I worked for employed more foreigners working abroad, than they did Irish people. As is their right of course and great for someone living in the Ukraine or wherever. But those are jobs that in previous years would have gone to Irish people. Not that we can complain of course, because people from those countries are attracting jobs based on low cost and a highly educated workforce. Exactly what we as a nation were doing 20 years ago in order to attract outside investment.

I agree with you from the point of view of Junior and Grad developers. I was in that boat for some time too. It's well known that it is hard to get into, but once you are there is plenty of work out there if you are capable at the job. I know it's a kind of chicken and egg scenario for employers, but the pressure on some companies is such that they cannot afford the cost of training new graduates up especially in development, where it doesn't suit everyone.

It's a difficult career to get into, the hours are long, and few people are cut out for it. If you are one of the "lucky few", then naturally things look quite rosy. I perfectly understand market pressures, and understand why employers are essentially forced to cut costs in whatever ways necessary. But at the same time those obstacles scare away potential recruits, hence the reason why the leaving cert students in recent years avoided tech careers in favor of "safer" professions. The employment market works both ways as employers tend to take for granted.

the_dark_side

SLUSK wrote: »

I come from a country where the minister of finance has an earring and a pony tail.

Oh.... after reading your original post, I thought you were either a Loyal Orangeman from northern ireland, or a loyalist scot :pac: